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Topic: Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different (Read 116693 times) previous topic - next topic
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Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #25 –
Quote from: tfarney on
Quote
"That foundational belief in audio is that "all things can influence sound". That is held a priori. Anything from there - whether what we hear has a correlate with measurement, the robustness of our perception mechanisms, the amount those mechanisms can be biased and the relative merits of particular testing methodologies – is contingent upon that a priori statement."


OK, that is about as imprecise and pretentious as the English language can get, but I'm an old English major and a long-time writer, I can deconstruct it and determine what it actually means. That would be:

We believe this, therefore it is true, regardless of any and all evidence to the contrary.

There is no counter argument. I guess we have to let them believe what they believe, throwing their money away in the process. There is absolutely no point in trying to talk any sense into them. Thanks for posting that. It solves a lot of problems.

Tim


Yes, I thought pretty much the same thing. This is the problem when you bring a philosopher to a science-fight!

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #26 –
Quote from: Ethan Winer on
Quote from: Richard Greene on
What's the psychology behind the audiophile "everything sounds different belief?


Where's JJ?

odyssey nailed it - placebo effect. And when you prove it's just placebo with a blind test, the believers attack blind testing as flawed. You can't win.

JJ and I are presenting a workshop at the AES show in New York next month on exactly this topic:

Audio Myths - Defining What Affects Audio Reproduction

--Ethan



Hmm, between Axon, you, and JJ, it looks like I 'know' a few AES presenters this year -- and it's in my hometown too.  Too bad registration is ~$400 for nonmembers/nonstudents.  Do you guys get comps? 






Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #27 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Whatever being an audiophile is or isn't, for this specific person it sounds like a serious addiction...

...and one that's hurting his marriage.

I could not agree more.
But in an attempt to prevent a forum argument over the definition of "addiction" let us agree on this:
Any behavior rises to the level of "problem" when it is continued beyond the point at which severe negative consequences arise as a direct result of said behavior.*

That's why I agree with where I think 2Bdecided is going with this:
Blah blah blah audiophile blah blah blah. 
The one and only point is that it appears the husband's behavior has crossed the line to problem behavior and professional help should be sought.  Treating this like it has anything to do with being an audiophile is missing the bigger picture.

EDIT:
* - Marital discord is in and of itself a negative consequence.
Creature of habit.

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #28 –
Quote from: Richard Greene on
I'm not ready to credit only the placebo effect.  In my own experiences as an audiophile,
I've found that if I listen to a song twice, it never sounds exactly the same to me even if no audio components changed!


The measurement device (you) has changed!  This happens constantly in life and with every person.  But the music has not changed at all.  So any perceived differences are a psychological differences, not a physical ones (unless you ears are sensitive from hearing loud sounds all day).  It seems like many audiophiles have a hard time accepting they change more than their eqiupment does.

As for your friends' married life - if you look at many argument on forums you'll find that many people are fairly resistant to any idea that maybe spending all that money is a waste and offers no improvement other than by placebo.

Some people have been swayed by asking themselves "What is perfect?  What is perfect sound?  What sound am I looking for?  What sound will make me happy and satisfied?  Where do I want to go with this?  What else could I spend this money on?  Where is this attachment to this hobby coming from?"  These are larger philosophical questions but they serve as a "reality check" as far as aligning our expectations and what we really get.  A number of audio eqiupment "addicts" seem to have changed their mind about spending money on audio eqiupment after thinking about these things.

Might I suggest couples or individual counseling?  It's cheaper than cables and will probably give a greater sonic improvement!
Quote
Any behavior rises to the level of "problem" when it is continued beyond the point at which severe negative consequences arise as a direct result of said behavior.


That's a great definition and is a version of what many psychologists use to define a pathology or problem.

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #29 –
I don't care how you cut it, spending $2000 on cables is always problem behaviour. There are a lot of untreated individuals out there...

Edit: based on the negative-consequences criterion above, there are two: inappropriate use of resources, and hallucination of things that are not there.

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #30 –
Well, it sounds (no pun intended) to me that, whatever the problems this guy and his wife are having, setting him on the Harmonious (the pun was intentional that time) Path To Responsible Audio Equipment Purchasing isn't necessarily going to fix them. This doesn't seem a "dude doesn't get the placebo effect" problem so much as a "dude and dudette need to work out their different attitudes toward money management and/or hobbies that one of them doesn't share and/or excessive or compulsive spending on luxury items" problem.

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #32 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Hmm, between Axon, you, and JJ, it looks like I 'know' a few AES presenters this year -- and it's in my hometown too.  Too bad registration is ~$400 for nonmembers/nonstudents.  Do you guys get comps? 

I'm getting comped for jack sh*t. This is all on vacation time and personal money.

Suck it up and register

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #33 –
Quote from: Axon on
The AES must hate me, because they scheduled your workshop to the same time as the loudness war workshop.
A *clear* case of divide and conquer....
lossyWAV -q X -a 4 -s h -A --feedback 2 --limit 15848 --scale 0.5 | FLAC -5 -e -p -b 512 -P=4096 -S- (having set foobar to output 24-bit PCM; scaling by 0.5 gives the ANS headroom to work)

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #34 –
Quote from: DocBeard on
Well, it sounds (no pun intended) to me that, whatever the problems this guy and his wife are having, setting him on the Harmonious (the pun was intentional that time) Path To Responsible Audio Equipment Purchasing isn't necessarily going to fix them. This doesn't seem a "dude doesn't get the placebo effect" problem so much as a "dude and dudette need to work out their different attitudes toward money management and/or hobbies that one of them doesn't share and/or excessive or compulsive spending on luxury items" problem.


Seconded. Though, with a more objective/skeptical worldview, there are actual limits to how much investment is worthwhile. You can still blow a chunk of change, but it's less likely that you will, say, take all the money one has to spend on audio, and plow it into a CD player or a power cable.

That said, that is somewhat of a straw man - hifi people will far more commonly recommend investing in each particular component as a percentage of total budget. But even with a 100% skeptical worldview, with the numerous imperfections in transducers, it is entirely possible to spend more than $100K on a system and not achieve perceptual transparency. And if somebody is in an environment where that is the goal, I guess one could fall into the same trap.

Speaking along the lines of this being more of a sociological issue than a placebo issue, a lot of audio forums (*cough*Head-Fi*cough) provide ample social reinforcement for spendy behavior. Peers do matter here.

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #35 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Peculiarly, but not exclusively...I remember a peculiar character named Enid Lumley who used to write for The Absolute Sound. IIRC one of her recommendations was that no metal objects be allowed in the listening room.  At the time I wondered if 'she' was a parody, but apparently not; she passed away in 2008.

Well, sure. I can also rattle off Teresa Goodwin and May Belt on that list. My point (clarified I guess) is that such women are extremely rare, and I very strongly believe that such gender imbalances mean something from a personality point of view. (Not trying to pass judgement when I say that - I'm just positing that there's a psychological reason behind the imbalance.)

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #36 –
Quote from: Canar on
I don't care how you cut it, spending $2000 on cables is always problem behaviour. There are a lot of untreated individuals out there...

Edit: based on the negative-consequences criterion above, there are two: inappropriate use of resources, and hallucination of things that are not there.

I dunno about hallucination. I'm all for psychology/psychiatry but when it comes to perceptual defects I kinda like the Szaszian viewpoint - it's not necessarily something that should get somebody involuntarily committed over.

Instead I'd generalize the "inappropriate use of resources" point to encompass the all-too-common situation of a consumer who, while possibly making an appropriate use of his funds for audio purposes, makes spectacularly bad upgrade investments, so that the real flaws are being ignored for imagined ones.

Of course, when you really start to generalize all of this the whole concept of "real' and "imagined" starts to break down. Very little of this conversation will be agreeable to the average Audio Asylum reader - from the opposing viewpoint, it is our perception of reality which is flawed. It's a hard nut to crack.

There's a more fundamental point to be made here about how one should derive pleasure and satisfaction from one's belongings and one's experiences, and how there is a wrong way to do so, in which the pleasure is rooted in either a transient, unknowable phenomenon, or an unattainable goal.

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #37 –
Quote from: Richard Greene on
Quote
You're correct that it's the Placebo effect. However, note that the Placebo effect is a weird and wonderful thing with quite deep implications and often misunderstood. For example, the placebo effect doesn't make you *think* stuff sounds better, it will actually make it sound better to you.


I'm not ready to credit only the placebo effect.  In my own experiences as an audiophile,
I've found that if I listen to a song twice, it never sounds exactly the same to me even if no audio components changed!

I experience the same thing, and I think it demonstrates that skeptics tend to perceive exactly the same things that anti-DBT audiophiles do - improved/worsened sound quality in various listening situations. But skeptics do not share the same interpretation of perception.

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #38 –
Quote from: Nick.C on
A *clear* case of divide and conquer....

Or a clear case of "have a few beers with Ethan and jj afterwards to catch up on what I missed out on"

I fear there is going to be a lot of woo running around at the loudness war workshop and it's going to be a damn shame that jj cannot attend it.

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #39 –
We sometimes read about "wife acceptance factor" on audio/home theater forums. This acceptance factor can relate not only to the cost of a piece of equipment but also it's effect on room design. It all boils down to agreement between the husband and wife in regard to a purchase. Your friend's wife appears to care about the disappearing money, which tells me the husband is making major purchases behind her back. Maybe you can ask him if he cares about his marriage instead of taking the audiophile approach. As others have already mentioned, this person may have a problem with uncontrollable spending, but at the same time maybe he can afford it and his wife is just against it for whatever reason. They both need to come to an agreement if they value their marriage.

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #40 –
Quote from: Axon on
Quote from: krabapple on
Hmm, between Axon, you, and JJ, it looks like I 'know' a few AES presenters this year -- and it's in my hometown too.  Too bad registration is ~$400 for nonmembers/nonstudents.  Do you guys get comps? 

I'm getting comped for jack sh*t. This is all on vacation time and personal money.

Suck it up and register



Tell you what... I'll meet you and Ethan and jj at the bar after your talks, and you can fill me in. First round's on me. 

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #41 –
Quote from: Axon on
I dunno about hallucination. I'm all for psychology/psychiatry but when it comes to perceptual defects I kinda like the Szaszian viewpoint - it's not necessarily something that should get somebody involuntarily committed over.
Like often I'm just using hyperbole to make a point.  The Audio Asylumers can think what they will; as far as I'm concerned, it's still just a hallucination. There are many mental disorders that people can still function well with, and some very sane people I know enjoy inducing hallucinations in themselves from time to time. As usual, you tread a clear path of rationality through my flailing fields of polemics.

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #42 –
Quote from: Axon on
Quote from: Ethan Winer on
JJ and I are presenting a workshop at the AES show in New York next month on exactly this topic:

Audio Myths - Defining What Affects Audio Reproduction

The AES must hate me, because they scheduled your workshop to the same time as the loudness war workshop.


So, do you expect Harley and Atkinson to show up? ;-)

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #43 –
Quote from: Richard Greene on
How can I explain the illusion that every new audio component or wire changes the sound, and usually seems to make the sound quality better, to a non-audiophile who doesn't notice any changes?


The idea that every new component no matter how trivial its technical changes the sound is not limited to audiophiles. For example, there are many anecdotes where audiophiles say things like "The difference was so great that my wife heard it in the kitchen while washing dishes". I believe that these stores may be true.

I think it is pretty well known that humans are prone to having false positive reactions, especially to sound. As the story goes, the cost for hearing a sound that does not exist is far lower than *not* hearing a sound that does exist, when the sound may be due to an impending attack by an enemy.

Another seemingly odd thing about audiophiles is that they tend to interpret most changes as improvements. I believe that this is also natural, merely being optimism or ego-centrism.

Of course there is a very large and often profitable business in encouraging this kind of behavior, and also selling equipment whose perceived need is based on it.

In short, a tendency towards audiophilism is the natural state of man, and a rational, scientific view of audio is unnatural.

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #44 –
It would be rude of me to publish my deck before the presentation, I suppose. I'll try to get it up on the section website afterwards, I promise.
-----
J. D. (jj) Johnston

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #45 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
In short, a tendency towards audiophilism is the natural state of man, and a rational, scientific view of audio is unnatural.

I think a rational, scientific view of anything is unnatural. That's why science usually needs to eliminate individual human experience from its experiments, and why it took millennia for humans to hone it in, and it even took some accidental discoveries to smack some sense into people.

What's more intriguing to me is this view that everything "natural" is better, or even "moral", as opposed to "unnatural" things. You can see this in all kinds of pseudoscience, especially related to medicine and food, and it's probably the prime excuse for people to discriminate against homosexuals (who in any case are not unnatural at all). I'm not sure if this line of thinking is "natural", it's probably cultural baggage.

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #46 –
I believe that audiophiles think everything sounds different because they desire it to sound different -- nothing more. I have been an audiophile for a couple years now, but I am definitely a skeptic and a realist, and I am happy to admit the following:

  • I expect a certain level of sound quality, but beyond that, it doesn't matter to me.
  • I don't care that much about the music - it is merely incidental and I'll listen to anything (minimize country music please).
  • I spend on equipment because I love the gadgets, the looks, the status and the build quality. I don't care much about tiny sound improvements, only sound impediments.
  • I concur with the notion that a low cost system can sonically compete with ultra-high cost systems and I won't argue to the contrary.
  • I don't believe in the claims that tweaks (deadeners, isolation products, exotic cables, dampeners etc.) improve sound very much (perhaps only marginally).
  • I do buy tweaking products because they look good and it gives me another thing to do in my hobby. It's enjoyable to buy new products related to my hobby.
  • I periodically change equipment, always striving for more prestigious gear, because it adds value to my system and allows me to try new devices.
  • I do believe that a room's acoustic properties will obviously affect sound, but I only invest the bare minimum to achieve decent sound, because it's no fun -- I'd rather get new gear.
  • I love DBT and ABX experiments, and I enjoy the truths that these tests reveal.
  • I think of my system as a sculpture or fine art, and I always am looking for ways to make it more visually pleasing and precisely organized.
  • Finally, I enjoy quality things that are built to last a lifetime, and I dislike anything that is cheaply constructed, tacky-looking, or lacks originality.


Anyone else share my beliefs?
The Skeptical Audiophile

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #47 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Do you guys get comps? 


I already used my one extra vendor pass for a friend who will hopefully not be kicked out when he sets up his pro video recording stuff. If they let him stay, you'll all get to see it soon after on YouTube.

--Ethan
I believe in Truth, Justice, and the Scientific Method

Why do so many audiophiles think everything sounds different

Reply #48 –
Quote from: Axon on
they scheduled your workshop to the same time as the loudness war workshop.

The "Loudness War" is boring and old news. Snore. Much better to watch middle-aged men and a nice looking lady explain why everything you know about audio is wrong.

--Ethan
I believe in Truth, Justice, and the Scientific Method