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Topic: HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test (Read 53284 times) previous topic - next topic
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HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #50 –
David

Quote
Yes, I understand that. My point (I'm sure you know!) is that, even if the power cables were delivering results, and your listeners were detecting them, your experimental methods don't allow you or me or anyone else to differentiate the results from chance. The tossing a coin example shows that I hope.


Expand this idea a little further. In a test such as this what is the cause of chance? Is it the listeners recorded their results based on tossing a coin? Of course not. Did any of the listeners think to themselves ‘sod it, I can’t hear a difference but I’ll take a chance and guess which I think the aftermarket power cable is’. Possibly.

To account for this a control test was included in the session to ‘catch’ this behaviour and, as stated in the test results, the results are best considered against the control. So the method does give the reader some opportunity to differentiate the results from chance or positive bias on the part of the listener. That was the very purpose of its inclusion. Ideally a second and separate control group would have been used but this was outside of what could be practicably done.

The method does not in any way preclude statistical analysis to estimate the outcome based on pure chance. Not at all.

Quote
I don't understand what resources were not available to you


If you begin with the assumption the audible consequences of aftermarket power cables (if indeed such does exist outside of psychoacoustics) are rather subtle then you need to design a test with a high resolving ability. The results of this test and of the previous, more comprehensive, Secrets test show this.

As a mere starting point; a listening room that is treated to reduce comb-filtering effects, a system that is accurately calibrated to ensure a relatively flat frequency response, and most importantly stringent prior assessment of the hearing acuity of the judges. All this before you even get to method.

As it happens I don’t think any of this is necessary unless you wish to pass the results of as demonstrative of fact. And then there’s publication in an appropriate peer-reviewed journal.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #51 –
Quote
The very fact that one is aware of something is the proof that something in some form exists -- that existence exists -- existence being all that which exists.

Right, and it is called imagination. Fantasy is cool - its lets you come up with ideas, it allows you to travel in worlds which dont exist outside of yourself, it makes your food taste better, your music sound better, etc....... thats all nice and well and has its place....

BUT, if someone would say that there are elves and orks all around us, just because he saw them while reading a fantasy-book....... then thats not science - its a psychological disorder... or in common terms: loosing touch with reality :-)

I'm very sorry that i cannot hear the strange voices which you're talking about......

Now stop trolling and go to some other forum where your kind of "science" is allowed..... 'cause here its not.
I am arrogant and I can afford it because I deliver.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #52 –
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...there are elves and orks all around us...
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


All around us? Really? Fancy that. 

People who hear differences between cables are 'special'. They have been give a special gift from a deity known as HOBBY.

You can read more about HOBBY here: [a href="http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=11783]http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=11783[/url]

Science can't explain why people hear cables because it is a miracle. These people have a miraculous gift.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #53 –
Good for them. At least those of us without these special gifts can save a little (or a lot of) bread. But I bet we don't enjoy the music as much... 

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #54 –
Umm, just to clarify it: i love to play roleplaying games, i love to spent 1 hour in the kitchen for some tasty italian food and then eat it while playing jazzy music with candles on the desk, etc.... i like to pay a few euros extra for speakers and equipment which fit nicely into the surroundings... and i sometimes like to self-reflect with spiritual travels in meditation while listening to ambient music and having tea afterwards........

BUT...... when analyzing, i am able to differentiate between the experience, and the components of which it consists..... and especially from which "world" those components originate. Ergo, my food does not taste better because there's music in it!

Quote
You can read more about HOBBY here: http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=11783

Thanks for that one! :-)

- Lyx
I am arrogant and I can afford it because I deliver.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #55 –
Quote
Quote
Quote
I also understand a lot more than some of the condascending remarks suggest, I have looked at this forum and all I find is blinkered condascension, thats no way to learn something,[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=332417"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It seems you already learnt here that lossless compression does not change the sound.

Edit: maybe we have been a little condascendent with you, but you earnt it!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=332435"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



I have learnt that you lot are up yer own arses and you make bold claims without any backup, telling me lossless is the same as original, is not the same as convincing me, I have learnt one thing from this forum, you lot are a poor sad bunch of wankers, now go ahead and ban me, lifes to short to waste on blinkered dogmatic idiots who think so much of their own importance that they have nothing to learn, sheesh.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=332454"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Too bad, I thought you were starting to learn about how audio worked based on your posts in the other thread.  Looks like I was wrong.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #56 –
Quote
The very fact that one is aware of something is the proof that something in some form exists -- that existence exists -- existence being all that which exists. Also, to grasp the thought, "I am aware of something," you must be conscious. Existence is axiomatic because it is necessary for all knowledge and it cannot be denied without conceding its truth. To deny existence is to say that something doesn't exist. A denial of something is only possible if existence exists.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=332450"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Is this an Ayn Rand quote?  If so, I think you're missing her point.  If not, you might like her work judging from your post.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #57 –
Quote
As for carrying out a test so that "conclusions based thereon pass into fact" - the people on HA have done it. Results from one of Roberto's listening tests ( http://www.rjamorim.com/test/ ) were used (along with other evidence) by the Advertising Standards Agency to strike down an advert by AOL for "CD quality" audio at 64kbps. The test, carried out by HA members without any funding, was accepted as evidence against the advertised claim.


This is interesting.  I searched through google, but came up with this:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.radio.d...d43dad8c590ca1a

which says that ASA rejected the complaint about AOL.

ff123

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #58 –
Quote
The very fact that one is aware of something is the proof that something in some form exists -- that existence exists -- existence being all that which exists. Also, to grasp the thought, "I am aware of something," you must be conscious. Existence is axiomatic because it is necessary for all knowledge and it cannot be denied without conceding its truth. To deny existence is to say that something doesn't exist. A denial of something is only possible if existence exists.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=332450"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


If you were going to treat existence as a noun, and exists as a predicate, then you might say something like "Existence = { x : exists(x) }," or "Existence is the set of all things that exist."  But there's only a slight little problem.  "Exists" is not a predicate, and "existence" is not a noun.  This has been well understood for quite a long time now by logicians (go read some Frege or Russell, etc.), and is the reason that the ontological argument for the existence of God does not work.  If it's not going to work there, trust me, it's not going to work for audiophilia either.

You can introduce "exists" as a predicate in certain logical systems that deal with notions of context though (quite unrelated to whatever you were trying to communicate), by saying something like E(c,x), where c is the context that x exists in.  However, this doesn't make sense for an unbounded or ambiguous context.  In that case, you simply say Exists xP(x) (where Exists is denoted with a backwards E, which I can't display because the page encoding is not unicode.. grr), or "there exists some x with property P".  "Exists" is not a predicate, its a quantifier.  If you try to translate "existence exists" into anything precise like this, you'll quickly find it's impossible, because quite frankly it's simply nonsense.

At any rate, one could spend more time trying to figure out what you might have meant, and try to use that to salvage something more useful to debate (let alone point out your flawed interpretation of Descartes' -- in turn -- flawed argument in the cogito), but as it currently stands, your "argument" is basically empty and devoid of meaning.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #60 –
[MODERATION]

There shall be NO religious discussion on this board, except perhaps in the offtopic forum.

I would also ask all posters to be cautious about any sensitive statements in that direction.

Thank you!
[/MODERATION]

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #61 –
Quote
If you begin with the assumption the audible consequences of aftermarket power cables (if indeed such does exist outside of psychoacoustics) are rather subtle


I think that it is this assumption that is triggering most of the skepticism about the experiment.  Should you not begin with the null hypothesis that no difference exists, and then design your test to determine whether you can disprove that null hypothesis?  In other words, before you can test to determine what the differences are, you first have to demonstrate that there is a difference.  If the results of the initial test show that there is no audible difference, then there is no reason to do further testing to determine what those differences are.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #62 –
Mike said
Quote
Is this an Ayn Rand quote? If so, I think you're missing her point. If not, you might like her work judging from your post.


Nothing to do with her, she would have thought along them lines yes, but I would not use her work as her point is whats called ? Objectivism

which for the mods is not a religion nor is meditation

yes many religions do it, but its not a religion 

might help if before cable tests took place if a ten minute sit, to focus the mind took place  make sure people really are testing cables, and not doing a shopping list  or thinking about getting home afterwards 


Another point for Garf fo most people I know hi fi is a religion 

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #63 –
Quote
I think that it is this assumption that is triggering most of the skepticism about the experiment.


The results of the first test are factual and reported as such. There’s no reason to be sceptical of this unless you consider the results were erroneously recorded (which wasn’t the case). Conclusions based on the results may of course differ (as they do).

Quote
If the results of the initial test show that there is no audible difference, then there is no reason to do further testing to determine what those differences are.


If this is your conclusion then correct. If not, a test with a higher resolving ability is needed.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #64 –
lyx tried to post but all he could manage was this tripe
Quote
Now stop trolling and go to some other forum where your kind of "science" is allowed..... 'cause here its not.


Not trolling and why the **** should I go just because "you"say so ? do you own this forum ? doubt it now go away and play put the towel on the sun bed or go and?

no will leave that one its been tried twice 

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #65 –
All of this has me bewildered. From a nation where the larger part of the population:

Believe in God,   
Trust Bush,         
Tote Guns and don't think they are dangerous, 
Still think they have freedom of speech, 
Are deluded enough to believe they have a free press..     

On that basis I am flummoxed at all this scepticism for something so many people can actually hear, rather than something they just wish were true.

The world view of Americans is one of sickening arrogance.. given that you have no chance of hearing or seeing the truth through yuou press I always liked to give you all the benefit of the doubt. However, in a small way ridiculing this test rather than adding healthy comments marks many of you out as arrogant in the extreme..

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #67 –
mosfet: the problem with your test is that if you hadn't changed any cables at all, its perfectly possible that you could still have obtained same results. In other words: you results fit with results obtained by chance. That's why it's not statistically reliable. So, at last, you really can't extract any valid conclusion from the test.

About a more resolving test with treated room, flat response, etc... not really. It's enough a test in the same listening conditions that people already had when they said they heard differences with cables. With the only difference of making it blind and doing enough trials to be able to rule out chance.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #68 –
HiFiWigWam:
It's clear you haven't still realizad that this is not an american forum, it's an international forum... Me, Garf, Pio2001, 2Bdecided, Lyx, and many more, are not americans... Even if we were, your comments are offtopic and debatable. Even if they weren't, would they apply to every american? I could say brits have their own "issues", as I could say of every other nationality, but nobody here has said so.

Edited: self-moderation.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #69 –
Quote
HiFiWigWam:
It's clear you haven't still realizad that this is not an american forum, it's an international forum... Me, Garf, Pio2001, 2Bdecided, Lyx, and many more, are not americans... Even if we were, would your remarks apply to every american? Should I say all brits don't get a clue just because you and the ones at your forum don't?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=332641"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


No it would not apply to ALL Americans... however it would apply to enough of a majority to ensure that the murdering scum bag Bush got back in though.. The post was tongue in cheek dude.

Peace to all.
Jim.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #70 –
HiFiWigWam, I could say the same of english, since they elected Blair again, the same one who blindly has always supported Bush.

Anyway, this is not the issue at discussion, and by all purposes, means nothing about the people in this forum.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #71 –
Quote
On that basis I am flummoxed at all this scepticism for something so many people can actually hear, rather than something they just wish were true. [a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=332634"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


This is because Hydrogenaudio is not a high fidelity forum. This is not an audio forum either. This is an "objectivist" audio forum (or "empirical-subjectivist", or "scientific", or what suits you best for "controlled double blind tests"). This is stated in the rules of the forum, and "subjectivist" discussions, such as "this power cable sounds rather bright on my hifi" are simply not allowed by the forum rules.

Listening tests which shows results different from chance with a probability greater than 95 % is all that we care about. If the tests didn't show such a statistical result, then, according to the forum rules, it lead to no conclusion.
We understand that outside this forum, people discuss tests results, and come to various conclusions, but here, only conclusions backed up with "statistical evidence" are taken into consideration.

This is not because most people here like it this way, this is because this is a forum rule, that everyone must accept when he or she registers to hydrogenaudio.org

I'll post in your forum in order to offer my help in this matter.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #72 –
Quote
David
Expand this idea a little further. In a test such as this what is the cause of chance? Is it the listeners recorded their results based on tossing a coin? Of course not. Did any of the listeners think to themselves ‘sod it, I can’t hear a difference but I’ll take a chance and guess which I think the aftermarket power cable is’. Possibly.
As KikeG said, the purpose of such a test should be to demonstrate that the results obtained were not a simple coincidence.
Quote
To account for this a control test was included in the session to ‘catch’ this behaviour and, as stated in the test results, the results are best considered against the control. So the method does give the reader some opportunity to differentiate the results from chance or positive bias on the part of the listener. That was the very purpose of its inclusion. Ideally a second and separate control group would have been used but this was outside of what could be practicably done.

The method does not in any way preclude statistical analysis to estimate the outcome based on pure chance. Not at all.
Well, yes, it does, because between every trial, you're changing either the cable, the listener, or both.  If you assume that the listeners are close enough to be equivalent, then for comparing each of the aftermarket cables versus the standard, cheap cable, you've only got three trials.  If all three of them were randomly guessing, then there's a one in eight probability that they'd all claim the aftermarket cable sounded better.  If you're willing to accept one in eight as being low enough odds to convince you that it's not a coincidence and that the aftermarket cable sounded better, well, then I guess you could go with that evidence, but most people here wouldn't accept one in eight and I don't think most statisticians would either.  It would have been better to run several A-B trials with the same aftermarket cable, making sure to keep the order in which the two cables are presented at least pseudo-random so people can't just always guess the second one is aftermarket or something, and record how often the listeners were able to guess correctly.  That way, if someone were able to pick out the aftermarket cable, say, fifteen out of sixteen times, you'd have some solid evidence of an audible difference.

Quote
If you begin with the assumption the audible consequences of aftermarket power cables (if indeed such does exist outside of psychoacoustics) are rather subtle then you need to design a test with a high resolving ability. The results of this test and of the previous, more comprehensive, Secrets test show this.

As a mere starting point; a listening room that is treated to reduce comb-filtering effects, a system that is accurately calibrated to ensure a relatively flat frequency response, and most importantly stringent prior assessment of the hearing acuity of the judges. All this before you even get to method.

As it happens I don’t think any of this is necessary unless you wish to pass the results of as demonstrative of fact. And then there’s publication in an appropriate peer-reviewed journal.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=332469"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
While you can always argue that the listening environment was not good enough for the true differences in the cable to be audible, with a properly-designed test, you could still conclude that under the given conditions, an audible difference between the different power cables is unlikely.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #73 –
Quote
All of this has me bewildered. From a nation where the larger part of the population:

Believe in God,    
Trust Bush,         
Tote Guns and don't think they are dangerous, 
Still think they have freedom of speech, 
Are deluded enough to believe they have a free press..     

Once more:
  • Scientific cable research is practically finnished.
  • Science does not predict the effects claimed by expensive cable retailers or audiophiles.
  • As such the burdon of proof is on you. We do not expect you to explain the cause. Only to verify the effects. If new, unexplained effects are proven, research is indicated and the current state of knowledge has to be adjusted.
  • In this topic it has been explained why the quoted test methology is flawed and does not allow to draw any meaningful conclusion. Thus you have not proven or disproved anything.
  • Setting up a proper test from which you can draw reasonable conclusions does not require anything, which you can not do. Pointers have allready been given and I'm absolutely sure people here will offer further advice.
  • Other properly executed tests have not been able to prove the existance of the claimed effects. However the participants thought they heard all kinds of neat stuff, during the blind phase.
  • Your mind can easily deceive you. That is why (double) blind testing is absolutely neccessary to avoid false claims (aka "lies").
  • For the last time: this is an international forum.

HiFi WigWam Power Cable Test

Reply #74 –
Quote
[MODERATION]

There shall be NO religious discussion on this board, except perhaps in the offtopic forum.

I would also ask all posters to be cautious about any sensitive statements in that direction.

Thank you!
[/MODERATION]
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=332622"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I wouldn't mind if you were to extend that, to also include politics and America bashing.  This is an international board, and it's getting a little tired.
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