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Topic: Playing Flac through a car stereo (Read 36630 times) previous topic - next topic
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Playing Flac through a car stereo

If I buy a Cowon D2+ and all my music content is in flac format, will I be able to play my content through the usb port on my car's head unit, or is using the aux in 3.5 mm jack the only option?

Am I correct in assuming the sound through a usb connection would be better? (i.e. no digital to analog conversion)

Moderation: Topic moved to Audio Hardware.

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #1 –
I don't know how you plan to play music off a Cowon D2+ via USB. Are you talking of plugging in your D2 into the USB port of your stereo and using the D2+ like a mass storage device? Even then your car stereo should able to play FLAC files, and I don't know of any car stereo that can do that.

I don't think that the D2 can stream its output to its USB port which rules out using the D2 as a FLAC player.

Considering all this, I think you have no choice but to use the aux in 3.5 mm jack.

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #2 –
Most car stereos will only do MP3/AAC over USB if they support it.

Lossless in a car stereo isn't worthwhile due to road noise.

And why is this in Listening Tests?

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #3 –
A car stereo with iPod support can potentially handle ALAC.
daefeatures.co.uk

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #4 –
Driving a car defeats the point in using FLAC-files as others already said. Most people here can't even tell the difference between most lame-encoded files and sources, so FLAC mainly servers it's use as a good way to archive your music.

You can easily create a lossy mirror of your FLAC-files using foobar2000 and take even more music with you on the road
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #5 –
Quote from: evereux on
A car stereo with iPod support can potentially handle ALAC.

The way Pioneer home AV receivers work (the newer ones at least) is that they take the decoded PCM from the iPod, as the receivers can't handle ALAC. I'm pretty sure the car stereos do that as well, since a single USB cable is used (on older models I think an analog cable running parallel was used). They can't decode ALAC though. I wonder if PCM over USB is some sort of standardized use of USB, or if Pioneer (the only ones that do this that I know of) has some proprietary method. I don't think so though, seeing as to how the iPod should have been able to output PCM over its dock connector in the first place, through USB. It has to have been thought of by Apple.

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #6 –
Quote from: andy o on
I'm pretty sure the car stereos do that as well, since a single USB cable is used (on older models I think an analog cable running parallel was used). They can't decode ALAC though.

I should have been more succinct as I was referring to the decoded PCM output of the iPod itself.  This is how the Alpine IDA X100 works as I have some ALAC frequency sweeps which playback fine (I wouldn't bother with lossless normally either). Also, turning on the iPod EQ changes the sound output which suggests a decoded PCM output.
daefeatures.co.uk

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #7 –
I see, I didn't know Alpines worked like that. You're right, the EQ also all but confirmed it for me that it was decoded PCM, but one thing I noticed is that the Sound Check function doesn't work, so that's probably applied last, right before, or even after, the D/A conversion?

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #8 –
Ok so just to get back on topic. My D2+ will be full of flac content anyway.

I've got a big road trip upcoming and there will be times when the car is stationary and I'll be playing my d2+ through the car stereo (i.e. no road noise to consider).

The car stereo is high end stuff, amped up with splits sub etc. Playing the D2+ through the aux in (now that I realise it doesnt output through usb), would it be worth having this content in flac or should I run with a lossy codec? (bearing in mind its a good car audio setup)

Cheers.

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #9 –
I would recommend using LAME with '-V 2' setting. The resulting files should be transparent for the mast part - even on your high-end setup.

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Jaras1 on
Ok so just to get back on topic. My D2+ will be full of flac content anyway.

I've got a big road trip upcoming and there will be times when the car is stationary and I'll be playing my d2+ through the car stereo (i.e. no road noise to consider).

The car stereo is high end stuff, amped up with splits sub etc. Playing the D2+ through the aux in (now that I realise it doesnt output through usb), would it be worth having this content in flac or should I run with a lossy codec? (bearing in mind its a good car audio setup)

Cheers.


You're still going to have more noise than an average home-based listening environment.

Have you actually tested to see if you can tell the difference?

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Jaras1 on
I've got a big road trip upcoming and there will be times when the car is stationary and I'll be playing my d2+ through the car stereo (i.e. no road noise to consider).

It doesn't really matter if there are noise or if the car has "high end" audio equipment. You will very unlikely be able to tell a difference between good lame encodes (even @ -v 5) and a lossless file. If you doubt me, you should make some ABX-tests to convince yourself.

Lossless music is way overkill for portable use, no matter what argument you bring in. It's good for archival purposes, postprocessing files or transcoding and therefore it should stay home (imho).

However, if your argument was that you needed a backup of all your lossless music anyway, that's an entire different case then  Still i'd prefer to have more music with me in the end.
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #12 –
Ok guys thanks for the info... very interesting. I can tell the difference between 128kbps and 330kbps mp3s very easily so i'm assuming the difference between 330kbps and flac would be pretty easy to pick (Please correct me if I'm wrong). I will conduct my own ABX tests in addition.

Also, another one for you...

Which would sound better (1) a 5th gen ipod plying apple lossless via usb line out or (2) a Cowon D2+ playing flac through 3.5m aux in? (Please assume its coming through a good amp and speakers)

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Jaras1 on
Ok guys thanks for the info... very interesting. I can tell the difference between 128kbps and 330kbps mp3s very easily so i'm assuming the difference between 330kbps and flac would be pretty easy to pick (Please correct me if I'm wrong). I will conduct my own ABX tests in addition.

Also, another one for you...

Which would sound better (1) a 5th gen ipod plying apple lossless via usb line out or (2) a Cowon D2+ playing flac through 3.5m aux in? (Please assume its coming through a good amp and speakers)


I'm correcting you because you're likely to be wrong  It gets harder the higher the bitrate. I also take it you meant 320kbps since the standard MP3 spec doesn't go past 320kbps

I think you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference between high VBR MP3 and FLAC in a normal listening environment let alone a car.

Also you can't make the assumption that because you can hear differences in your home that you can hear them in your car.

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #14 –
I'd like to see you ABX a 128kbit lame encode from it's source.
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Jaras1 on
Ok guys thanks for the info... very interesting. I can tell the difference between 128kbps and 330kbps mp3s very easily so i'm assuming the difference between 330kbps and flac would be pretty easy to pick (Please correct me if I'm wrong). I will conduct my own ABX tests in addition.

Also, another one for you...

Which would sound better (1) a 5th gen ipod plying apple lossless via usb line out or (2) a Cowon D2+ playing flac through 3.5m aux in? (Please assume its coming through a good amp and speakers)


I compared the output from my 3rd gen iPod analogue line output via the dock with my moderately high end CD player with dedicated DACs for each channel, and could not hear any difference between them. I also made the comparison with a DVD player and could detect no difference.  I also employed my two young children and they couldn't hear a difference.  I therefore have a strong suspicion that there are probably no audible differences between DACs.

I therefore doubt there would be any audible difference between the suggested iPod or Cowon setups.

Try an ABX comparison between 192 kbps Lame and FLAC.  I doubt you will be able to discern a difference.

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #16 –
Ok cool thanks for your opinions guys. Yeah sorry I meant 320 kbps.

I will try an ABX test of 192kbps and flac. I've got a great ear, so I'm confident I can discern, but hope I cant so I can get away with putting more audio on my portable player!

Cheers.

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #17 –
Don't just use 192kbps, you're best using VBR but try LAME at say -V 5 upwards and see whehther you can tell

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Jaras1 on
Which would sound better (1) a 5th gen ipod plying apple lossless via usb line out or (2) a Cowon D2+ playing flac through 3.5m aux in? (Please assume its coming through a good amp and speakers)


There is no such thing as a USB line out when it comes to iPods.  You either have a digital USB connection (ie the receiver is treating the iPod like an external storage device), line-out (3.5mm or through a custom analog connection that is essentially the same thing) through the dock connector at the bottom, or a 3.5mm output through the iPod's headphone port.

It is funny that you keep asking about lossless playback when people have given you the same answers over and over and over again.  Lossless is not needed in car no matter how good or expensive the system is.  I have a Civic with 3 "high end" amps, two dedicated subwoofers, 2 tweeters, and four 4-way speakers (with the subwoofers handling all the bass).  This is a high end system setup (I am not using Lightning Audio equipment) yet lossy music still works fine in my car.  Cars just aren't acoustically tuned, you will have sound waves being absorbed and bouncing off of everything in there.  Noise from the engine, tires coming in contact with the road, wind, other cars driving by, etc. will all cover up frequencies.  Even if I were to turn my system all the way up, lossy music is more than acceptable.

You need to step back and evaluate everything that everyone keeps saying.  Lossless, in ANY car, is overkill.  There is absolutely no need to play lossless in a car.  Get that idea out of your head or you will quickly alienate yourself here and find that people will be less willing to help you.  After all, they have given you a bunch of advice already yet you continue to ignore it.  Lastly, you need to conduct a series of blind ABX tests.  You could even take a notebook out to your car and conduct blind ABX tests between FLAC source files and -V 5 Lame files.  Either way, you don't need lossless in a car.

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #19 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
There is no such thing as a USB line out when it comes to iPods.  You either have a digital USB connection (ie the receiver is treating the iPod like an external storage device), line-out (3.5mm or through a custom analog connection that is essentially the same thing) through the dock connector at the bottom, or a 3.5mm output through the iPod's headphone port.

You sure about this? I have a Pioneer receiver and it doesn't decode ALAC (only mp3, AAC and I think WMA), but when the iPod is connected through USB it behaves just like it was receiving decoded PCM from the iPod. The EQ in the iPod even works too, and the receiver itself doesn't have an iPod EQ itself. Maybe USB allows for PCM transmission, that's what I'm thinking.

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #20 –
Quote from: andy o on
Maybe USB allows for PCM transmission, that's what I'm thinking.

Or maybe it's just transmitting analogue audio just as a headphone jack?
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #21 –
Quote from: odyssey on
Quote from: andy o on
Maybe USB allows for PCM transmission, that's what I'm thinking.

Or maybe it's just transmitting analogue audio just as a headphone jack?

Well yeah that possibility also crossed my mind, but I didn't find anything that suggested USB was capable of passing analog audio. PCM seems more likely.

If you mean that Pioneer was probably just using two connectors to transmit their own implementation of analog through USB (since the iPod connector is on the other end, and that one can take in analog audio), then consider that the cable used is a regular iPod cable, thus Apple had to have been aware of this beforehand, and provide with the function.

But other things too like the fact that the receiver can't apply some DSP settings for analog audio, but it behaves exactly like it does with PCM (and it even shows "PCM" on the LCD display) with the iPod, suggest strongly that a digital signal is being received.

Oh, and also, "Sound check" normalization doesn't work (it does for analog audio out of the dock connector), but EQ does work, which suggests both that the decoding is being done in the iPod, and it's not the analog signal out of the dock connector.


But in any case, how does a USB sound card work exactly? Isn't PCM being sent through USB for it to be later processed and DAC'd in the device itself? I think the more surprising thing is that the iPod allows for this, and not many accessory manufacturers take advantage of it. I've only seen Pioneer do it, and Alpine was also mentioned above.

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #22 –
Quote from: andy o on
You sure about this? I have a Pioneer receiver and it doesn't decode ALAC (only mp3, AAC and I think WMA), but when the iPod is connected through USB it behaves just like it was receiving decoded PCM from the iPod. The EQ in the iPod even works too, and the receiver itself doesn't have an iPod EQ itself. Maybe USB allows for PCM transmission, that's what I'm thinking.


That would be the "custom analog connection" that I talked about.  The CD deck directly communicates with the iPod as if it were a secondary display while the audio is sent out through the dock connection (analog).  This means that it can playback everything that the iPod can yet it gives you full controls from your CD deck.  The audio is still analog but the deck allows you to control the iPod (and receive information from it) due to going through the dock connector (not USB).  No different than these 3rd party docks that display information on a TV when an iPod is plugged in, 3rd party iPod controller accessories going through the dock connector, etc.

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #23 –
I didn't think through... I thought we talked about the iPod dock-connector, which is able to transmit analogue audio.
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P

Playing Flac through a car stereo

Reply #24 –
Quote from: kornchild2002 on
Quote from: andy o on
You sure about this? I have a Pioneer receiver and it doesn't decode ALAC (only mp3, AAC and I think WMA), but when the iPod is connected through USB it behaves just like it was receiving decoded PCM from the iPod. The EQ in the iPod even works too, and the receiver itself doesn't have an iPod EQ itself. Maybe USB allows for PCM transmission, that's what I'm thinking.


That would be the "custom analog connection" that I talked about.  The CD deck directly communicates with the iPod as if it were a secondary display while the audio is sent out through the dock connection (analog).  This means that it can playback everything that the iPod can yet it gives you full controls from your CD deck.  The audio is still analog but the deck allows you to control the iPod (and receive information from it) due to going through the dock connector (not USB).  No different than these 3rd party docks that display information on a TV when an iPod is plugged in, 3rd party iPod controller accessories going through the dock connector, etc.

Right, but what we were talking about was the different behavior of newer Pioneer car and home receivers (the older ones do what you say, just like most of the docks out there). These receivers take in only a USB connection, and they use any iPod USB cable, no extra cable used for analog. Also, like I said above, Sound Check doesn't work, and the receiver (a VSX-01 TXH in my case) exhibits all the symptoms of receiving digital audio.