I would like to request that TTA (http://tta.corecodec.org/) is added to fooassoc.exe (and that it gets it's own color foobar icon). TIA
Won't happen before there is a proper TTA input plugin for foobar2000.
There is (see the link above).
There is (see the link above).
No, there isn't. The The plugin you linked to does not use the foobar2000 reader system. Instead it uses the Win32 API to access files. This effectively disables several features provided by the player, like file buffering and archive reading.
No, there isn't. The The plugin you linked to does not use the foobar2000 reader system. Instead it uses the Win32 API to access files. This effectively disables several features provided by the player, like file buffering and archive reading.
Hi Foosion!
Thanks for your comments.
TTA plugin will be rewrited using the foobar2000 reader system.
Can you look at the TTA plugin code again? Speek wrote to me that the title bar of foobar is flickering badly when playing TTA files.. but I can't found a reason. Maybe you can to advise to me to make some additional code modifications for better compatibility with foobar?
-- Alexander
Speek wrote to me that the title bar of foobar is flickering badly when playing TTA files.. but I can't found a reason.
Small correction: I wrote that previous versions of the TTA component made the Foobar title bar flicker badly. In the latest version (2.3) you managed to improve this a lot. The title bar flickers (flashes) now only about once every 30 seconds (the interval varies).
I hope someone with foobar programming experience can help Ald to improve the TTA component.
TTA plugin will be rewrited using the foobar2000 reader system.
Can you look at the TTA plugin code again? Speek wrote to me that the title bar of foobar is flickering badly when playing TTA files.. but I can't found a reason. Maybe you can to advise to me to make some additional code modifications for better compatibility with foobar?
Using the reader system is quite easy. You can use the reader supplied in the call to open(). This reader is managed by the player, so you don't need to service_add_ref/service_release it. (At least that is true for normal input services. Given that you seem to use a background thread to build a seektable, it might be a good idea to do so nonetheless.)
As for the flickering, I think that is a problem with every inputs that use dynamic info. Dynamic bitrate info can be disabled for the standard inputs which use that (VBR bitrate display under Preferences->Playback->Input->Standard Inputs).
http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/temp/foo_tta.zip (http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/temp/foo_tta.zip)
http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/temp/fooassoc.exe (http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/temp/fooassoc.exe)
Case, great to here from you And thanks for the files. Your TTA component doesn't play TTA v3.0 files. But the flickering of the title bar is fixed in your version. So I guess Alexander can use your code to fix this in his foobar component.
Good to see you around Case And thanks for helping out with the TTA plugin!
[..] Given that you seem to use a background thread to build a seektable, it might be a good idea to do so nonetheless. [..]
They actually seem to have fixed that a while ago at least in foo_tta. reader support is still needed though.
No clue about foo_tta_old though - would be nice to see a non-broken plugin in both respects for that as well.
To the foo_tta author(s), it might be wise to clearly separate the decoder from the plugin interface layer and put it into an own library that exclusively uses file readers.
To the foo_tta author(s), it might be wise to clearly separate the decoder from the plugin interface layer and put it into an own library that exclusively uses file readers.
Thanks for all of your comments.
I'll take a week for a new component release.
http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/temp/foo_tta.zip (http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/temp/foo_tta.zip)
2 Case: Good work. Your code is clean. I going to include some parts of your modified plugin code into a current versions. Please send to me your Changelog strings if it's possible.
About TTA formats:
TTA1 hardware compatible format (encoder v3.0) released and we going to standartize this one. We has decreased little bit the compression ratio for possibility of playback/recording in a popular audio hardware.
TTA2 format (encoder v2.0 & future releases) still in development. Precalculated seek table will be included in it also. Please don't use it for archiving. TTA2->TTA1 converter is temporary included into the TTA 3.0 distribution package.
-- Alexander
The plugin you linked to does not use the foobar2000 reader system.
OK. No problem to use the foobar2000 reader system.
I have some additional questions:
1) How I can to get an ID3v2 tag size from tag_reader? In other case I must to read it again
2) In all of SDK samples older ID3v2 tag removing before saving, but it's not required if the new tag has a lower or equal size. Is it possible?
Thank you in advance.
-- Alexander
The plugin you linked to does not use the foobar2000 reader system.
OK. No problem to use the foobar2000 reader system.
I have some additional questions:
1) How I can to get an ID3v2 tag size from tag_reader? In other case I must to read it again
2) In all of SDK samples older ID3v2 tag removing before saving, but it's not required if the new tag has a lower or equal size. Is it possible?
Thank you in advance.
-- Alexander
1) See id3v2_hacks.cpp from foo_input_std.
2) My ID3v2 writer supports padding so the file size is an even multiple of 2KB, with at least some padding over the data. Unfortunately, the tag_remover service does not support a mechanism for removers to identify themselves or for the caller to selectively bypass removal of some tag types. You will need to use the tag_remover, unless you do your own APE/ID3v1 removal. See foo_input_std for how to detect if ID3v2 or other tag readers/writers are installed.
Does someone know what command line I should use for making TTA work with foobar2000's diskwriter?
I've tried several one, but I can't make it work.
I'd also like to know what switch I should use for different presets. Speek's frontend offers four switchs (fast... extra-high), but the ttaenc.exe -help don't list them.
Last question : are APEv2 compatible with TTA? I'm using Monkey with a lot of personnal fields, and I'm not totally sure that all these fields are compatible with the ID3v2.x. I also prefer tagging solutions stored at the end of the file (it's faster on tag edition, and I often modify them).
Thanks
Does someone know what command line I should use for making TTA work with foobar2000's diskwriter?
try this:
-e -s -o %d %s
Most recent TTA encoder doesn't seem to support different compression levels any more, I might be wrong about that though. ald?
About APEv2, no clue. Again, I'll leave answering this question up to ald..
Thank you. Your command line is working perfectly
About different profiles, you're right. I've just test on the same files, and both -fast and -extrahigh produces the same file (same bitrate). No wonder that -extrahigh was so fast on encoding
About APEv2: I've forced APEv2 tags with foobar2000's diskwriter. File is not corrupted, but tags don't appear (normal behaviour, if foo_tta is designed for reading ID3).
Other thing: I've noticed than output files are generally slightly bigger with tta than with monkey --normal. Nevertheless, the bitrate indication of foobar2000 is in favor of tta. One is wrong...
1) See id3v2_hacks.cpp from foo_input_std...
2 kode54: Thanks for help. My code looks alike. You can look at my Winamp plugin code. This plugin contains a small ID3 library which works very quickly.
HOT NEWS ;-)
New TTA plugin for Foobar2000 has appeared. Hope it looks better.
Changes from previous version:
- Code rewrited using Foobar reader system;
- Fixed CUE files playback.
ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040430.zip (http://ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040430.zip)
ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-src-20040430.zip (http://ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-src-20040430.zip)
-- Alexander
ald:
- please add pipe support to TTA commandline encoder (use stdin/stdout for encoding/decoding)
- please fix bitrate display in foobar plugin (was still about 25kbps too low on the track I just analyzed)
- can you add support for APEv2 tagging?
I seconded the bitrate calculation problems. Just one exemple, with a 9:29 minutes files.
APE : 45.949 KB bitrate : 662 Kbps
TTA : 46.929 KB bitrate : 659 Kbps
Difference is 1 MB (2%), and bitrate is neverthess lower for tta ?!
Last question : are APEv2 compatible with TTA?
Yes, but as undocumented feature. Decoder will to skip all data at end of file. I going to add an APEv2 support in a next release of the TTA plugin for Foobar. Hope it will be released quickly.
I'd also like to know what switch I should use for different presets.
TTA 3.0 has a fixed compression level (no different presets), because it's hardware oriented format. We has decreased little bit the compression ratio (from wersion 2.0) for possibility of playback/recording in a popular audio hardware. Look at the Readme for details.
TTA 3.0 comparisons results:
http://tta.corecodec.org/index.php?menu=comp (http://tta.corecodec.org/index.php?menu=comp)
-- Alexander
ald> thanks for all these clarifications. I've read carefully the content of your site. If I searched to use different profiles, it's because speek's nice frontend dedicated to TTA v.3 offered four different profiles. My confusion was probably legitimate
Decoding speed of your encoder is interesting. Encoding ratios are nevertheless worse than MAC -c2000 (the encoder I choose for my library) : 4-6 MB per disc (tested on three discs only).
Anyway, your encoder is fast, and really interesting. Thanks for your work
Difference is 1 MB (2%), and bitrate is neverthess lower for tta ?!
It's a difference in bitrate calculation.
1 Kbit = 1024 bits, not a 1000.
-- Alexander
--double post --
Difference is 1 MB (2%), and bitrate is neverthess lower for tta ?!
It's a difference in bitrate calculation.
1 Kbit = 1024 bits, not a 1000.
-- Alexander
AFAIK, everybody calculates audio bitrates with 1
kbit=1000bits, not 1024bits. Nobody uses
Kbit, except Microsoft and TTA.
It's a difference in bitrate calculation.
1 Kbit = 1024 bits, not a 1000.
Could you explain the reason behind that?
Personally, I am not aware of any audio format that would use such a convention.
2 guruboolez: Thank you for good words about TTA.
Encoding ratios are nevertheless worse than MAC -c2000 (the encoder I choose for my library) : 4-6 MB per disc (tested on three discs only).
Yes. I have a difference about 2-3 MB per album (~400Mb) approx., but it depends from data. In fact TTA 3.0 compression ratio corresponds to MAC fast mode, but we don't use Intel specified assembler optimizations; It's realy multiplatform codec; TTA format has no restrictions for number of audio channels; Algorithm has a minimal system requirements and can be implemented into the most of popular DVD players without a specialized chips.
-- Alexander
Yes. I have a difference about 2-3 MB per album (~400Mb) approx., but it depends from data.
2-3 MB?
Strange. I listen to classical music mainly, and bitrate with lossless is less impressive : 570...600 kbps on average (I obtained 41% ratio on 300 CD).
I couldn't test for the moment on more than three discs (stored on my notebook), but the difference is > 2..3 MB :
SCELSI
APE 214 Mo (224 505 884 octets)
TTA 219 Mo (230 166 109 octets)
HAYDN
APE 222 Mo (233 703 319 octets)
TTA 227 Mo (238 842 259 octets)
VIVALDI
APE 293 Mo (308 005 231 octets)
TTA 299 Mo (313 857 299 octets)
Difference is more annoying, though it's far from a dramatic situation. On a 120 GB hard disk, I'll probably lose 7 or 8 albums.
I couldn't test for the moment on more than three discs (stored on my notebook), but the difference is > 2..3 MB
Sorry, from our tests it's really about 4-6 Mb difference (per album) ;-)
On a 120 GB hard disk, I'll probably lose 7 or 8 albums.
TTA was not developed to reach a top of compression results. Unfortunately it's unpossible now to get a high (1-3% better) compression ratio and keep a hardware compatibility. 4-6 Mb difference (per album) - it's about 1.5%. On a 120 GB hard disk, you will probably lose only 1,8 Gb. Real difference here in count of software/hardware wich is/may support this format. TTA project develops fast. Many of the TTA supported software are planned this year.
-- Alexander
It's a difference in bitrate calculation. 1 Kbit = 1024 bits, not a 1000.
Could you explain the reason behind that?
Personally, I am not aware of any audio format that would use such a convention.
It's a right calculation. Without any doubtful goals ;-)
I don't want to divide by 1000 because it gives a not true result.
This calculation is not format depended. If you prefer to see a wrong bitrate value - you can to correct it by yourself. TTA code is open.
-- Alexander
It's a difference in bitrate calculation. 1 Kbit = 1024 bits, not a 1000.
Could you explain the reason behind that?
Personally, I am not aware of any audio format that would use such a convention.
It's a right calculation. Without any doubtful goals ;-)
I don't want to divide by 1000 because it gives a not true result.
This calculation is not format depended.
You're wrong about this.
The only context in which 1 kb = 1024 b is
memory, for historical and technical reasons (physical memory always comes in powers of 2).
When it comes to disk space consumption - which is relevant in the context at hand - 1 kb is 1000 b.
New TTA plugin for Foobar2000 has appeared. Hope it looks better.
Changes from previous version:
- Code rewrited using Foobar reader system;
- Fixed CUE files playback.
ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040430.zip (http://ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040430.zip)
It has problems with sync on track change when plays via CUE. Get some gapless image for testing.
Computers count in powers of two. Kilo in the context of a computer means 1024. End of story. Want proof? Right click on ANY file in windows and look at how the size information is calculated. Look at the capacity your OS reports for your "40 Gig" hard drive (HD manufacturers have long calculated their sizes using powers of 10 in order to make their drives look bigger).
I will accept 1000 bytes in a kilobyte when there are 10 bits in a byte.
*puts on pedantic hat*
Actually, the official term for 1024 bytes is a kibibyte (http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html), not a kilobyte. Kibibyte, however, sounds stupid, so kilobyte still gets a lot of use even though it's technically wrong. As for TTA, if the other input plugins are using kilo- to mean 1000, it'd probably be a good idea to conform to that, even though it's not really too big of a deal.
*throws pedantic hat in woodchipper*
Thanks for all. It's really my mistake. It's incredibly, but for dynamic bitrate calculation 1Kbit equal to 1000 bit I will to correct the bitrate calculation in all of TTA plugins.
"Examples of quantities or phenomena in which power-of-10 prefix multipliers apply include frequency (including computer clock speeds), physical mass, power, energy, electrical voltage, and electrical current. Power-of-10 multipiers are also used to define binary data speeds. Thus, for example, 1 kbps (one kilobit per second) is equal to 103, or 1,000, bps (bits per second); 1 Mbps (one megabit per second) is equal to 106, or 1,000,000, bps. (The lowercase k is the technically correct symbol for kilo- when it represents 103, although the uppercase K is often used instead.)
When binary data is stored in memory or fixed media such as a hard drive, diskette, ZIP disk, tape, or CD-ROM, power-of-2 multipliers are used. Technically, the uppercase K should be used for kilo- when it represents 210. Therefore 1 KB (one kilobyte) is 210, or 1,024, bytes; 1 MB (one megabyte) is 220, or 1,048,576 bytes."
-- Alexander
I uploaded new modified TTA plugins to my page, download binaries (http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/temp/foo_tta.zip) or sources (http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/temp/foo_tta_src.zip).
Changes:
Sample accurate seeking, correct bitrate display, multi-instance safety (only old version was buggy), streaming support, configuration for selecting tag format and turning on/off realtime bitrate display.
Edit: and lossless decoding of IEEE floating point TTA files.
I've heard all the kibi/mebi/gibi stuff before. I don't buy it. When you are talking about an inherently binary system it makes sense to talk about it using binary terms, and the *established* prefixes are kilo, mega, giga, despite any SI connotations they might have. Not to mention you sound like an idiot saying stuff like "mebibyte."
I'll accept the new prefixes when I see them actually used by someone other than someone who has been reading way too many "standards" documents for their own good.
re-read the second paragraph of Alexander's (ald) last post.
Additionally, allow me to quote a bit more from the text Alexander already quoted from (since you're probably not going to do any own research on this issue anyway):
"The choice of power-of-10 versus power-of-2 prefix multipliers can appear arbitrary. It helps to remember that in common usage, multiples of bits are almost always expressed in powers of 10, while multiples of bytes are almost always expressed in powers of 2. Rarely is data speed expressed in bytes per second, and rarely is data storage or memory expressed in bits. Such usages are considered improper. Confusion is not likely, therefore, provided one adheres strictly to the standard usages of the terms bit and byte."
Keep in mind that audiovisual media are usually regarded as streams, not as files - hence the usage of kbps, and hence the use of powers of 10.
I uploaded new modified TTA plugins to my page..
Thank you for your work. Going to look at you code now.
1 question: In my SDK I have no a DECLARE_FILE_TYPE macro..
Where can I get this macro if it requered for Foobar?
Please check this plugin also:
NEW TTA PLUGIN (BETA)ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040502.zip (http://ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040502.zip)
ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040502.zip (http://ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040502.zip)
- Fixed CUE files playback;
- APEv2 tags support;
- Tagging type selection;
- Corrected VBR calculation;
- Display VBR configuration option.
Thanks in advance for comments.
-- Alexander
NEW TTA PLUGIN (BETA)
ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040502.zip (http://ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040502.zip)
ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040502.zip (http://ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040502.zip)
- Fixed CUE files playback;
- APEv2 tags support;
- Tagging type selection;
- Corrected VBR calculation;
- Display VBR configuration option.
Thanks in advance for comments.
-- Alexander
Really good one for my playback images via CUE. But it has one (i hope last) problem:
Part of CUE file:
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "xxx"
PERFORMER "xxx"
FLAGS DCP
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
TITLE "xxx"
PERFORMER "xxx"
FLAGS DCP
INDEX 00 02:46:60
INDEX 01 02:50:53
TRACK 03 AUDIO
TITLE "xxx"
PERFORMER "xxx"
FLAGS DCP
INDEX 00 05:04:66
INDEX 01 05:09:04
TRACK 04 AUDIO
TITLE "xxx"
PERFORMER "xxx"
FLAGS DCP
INDEX 00 07:54:41
INDEX 01 07:58:53
3 images: .ape, .flac, .tta. I decoded track01, track02, track03 and track04 in a separate files. All tracks decoded from ape and flac are bit-identical. Track02 and Track04 decoded from tta have 1 extra sample in the beginning.
Track02 and Track04 decoded from tta have 1 extra sample in the beginning.
Have you tried the same with Case's version (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=21147&view=findpost&p=207945) of the plugin?
~ Florian
Track02 and Track04 decoded from tta have 1 extra sample in the beginning.
Have you tried the same with Case's version (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=21147&view=findpost&p=207945) of the plugin?
~ Florian
Yes.
Track01 - bit-identical.
Track02 - different samples at 00.000-00.032
Track03 - different samples at 00.000-00.028
Track04 - 1716 missing samples at 00.000 (flac/ape) and 1716 missing samples at 00.065 (tta)
1 question: In my SDK I have no a DECLARE_FILE_TYPE macro..
Where can I get this macro if it requered for Foobar?
You need latest SDK (http://www.foobar2000.org/SDK.zip).
Please check this plugin also:
NEW TTA PLUGIN (BETA)
ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040502.zip (http://ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040502.zip)
ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040502.zip (http://ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040502.zip)
- Fixed CUE files playback;
- APEv2 tags support;
- Tagging type selection;
- Corrected VBR calculation;
- Display VBR configuration option.
Some nice improvements but few issues: seeking isn't sample accurate, you disallow playback of streams and floats are clipped to linear PCM scale.
I used some of the new improvements in my modified version and fixed the seeking issue reported by rii. Download binaries (http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/foobar2000/foo_tta.zip) and sources (http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/foobar2000/foo_tta_src.zip).
Also included in my latest special installer (http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/foobar2000/foobar2000_0.8.1.exe).
Some nice improvements but few issues: seeking isn't sample accurate, you disallow playback of streams and floats are clipped to linear PCM scale.
Thanks again for your help. Please look at the final version.
Preferences/About also interesting
RELEASE?(Mostly of Case modifications included)
ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040502.zip (http://ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-20040502.zip)
ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-src-20040502.zip (http://ftp://tta.iszf.irk.ru/ttaplugin-foobar-2.4-src-20040502.zip)
Any additional wishes?
-- Alexander
Any additional wishes?
Sure, while you're at it..
This is not directly related to foo_tta, but to ttaenc in general: please add support for encoding from stdin and decoding to stdout. This would enable direct transcoding to and from tta, without the need to create a temporary wav file.
(it'd allow for better TTA support in foo_clienc as well )
This is not directly related to foo_tta, but to ttaenc in general: please add support for encoding from stdin and decoding to stdout.
OK. I will, but at now I must make my part of code for new auCDtect release.
Later..
-- Alexander
Some ideas or wishes about TTA itself:
- embedded md5 hash, like Monkey Audio, could be nice (for quick checking a entire library, especially on low CPU).
- CoolEdit/Audition filter is also a nice tool.
Anyway, nice progress since 48 hours (corrected bitrate, APEv2 support). Thanks.
Some ideas or wishes about TTA itself:
- embedded md5 hash, like Monkey Audio, could be nice (for quick checking a entire library, especially on low CPU).
- CoolEdit/Audition filter is also a nice tool.
MD5 hash is not required. Each TTA frame has it's own CRC32. For checking a big libraries it's better to use some of special multimedia library organizers.. I think.
CoolEdit/Audition filter is planned.
-- Alexander
For checking a big libraries it's better to use some of special multimedia library organizers.. I think.
I don't understand.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are two ways for checking files:
- full decoding.
- CRC or MD5 verification.
The first way is probably the best (more accurate), but the second is much faster. On large library (mine is now >6000 lossless files) and slow CPU, full decoding is really fastidious. Verification takes one hour with the second methodology on my computer, and more than a complete night with the traditional decoding tool.
What do you think?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are two ways for checking files:
- full decoding.
- CRC or MD5 verification.
CRC verification for TTA does not require full decoding.
I will add the "verify" command into the TTA encoder also.
-- Alexander
Great format, then
Also included in my latest special installer (http://www.saunalahti.fi/cse/foobar2000/foobar2000_0.8.1.exe).
Hey case,
Any chance you will make an discwriter plugin (like your Monkey's Audio and FLAC) for easy converting to TTA?
--
Neksus
Are we all looking at moving away from FLAC or APE to TTA? TTA definitely looks promising. It's current lack of hardware support is only a small limitation for me, and I see that is moving in the right direction as well. Are there many of you thinking of making the switch in the future?
Any chance you will make an discwriter plugin (like your Monkey's Audio and FLAC) for easy converting to TTA?
Use the foo_clienc, Luke.
here's a commandline you can use:
-e -s -o %d %s
Use the foo_clienc, Luke.
here's a commandline you can use:
-e -s -o %d %s
Thanks works perfect!!!
--
Neksus