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Topic: 'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus (Read 31426 times) previous topic - next topic
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'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #75 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Quote from: Heisenberg on
No worries though. If I were ever feeling compelled to talk about what sounds quite good to me I wouldn't do it here.


Well that only took you a month to figure out.  I guess that's progress.

Well what do you expect. He's Just Asking Questions. He's Heisenberg. He's perpetually uncertain.

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #76 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Quote from: polemon on
Because putting a small CD in a big-ass cardboard sleeve would be just... dumb, I don't know, I wouldn't like it.

Why would it matter that a small disc is in a big sleeve?  Hell, it could be a 'sleeve' with *no* disc in it AFIAC, the music could come from a download.  The point is to give the art and design the engaging presentation it  deserves.

Well, yes, to me it kinda would. The form has to at least hint at the function, when not following it. Otherwise this would not appeal to me. You can spin this further out, like going straight for the coffee table book. Or just ditch the coffee table book, go straight for the kindle version... No wait, ditch even that and just browse the bands website on your tablet.
It's not about relevance here, it's about a certain connotation of the product.

Quote from: krabapple on
Quote
I don't like CDs though. I've had several CD simply perish on me. Remember when they promised us, that CDs will last 100 years with no sound degradation? Yeah, well some of my CDs started disintegrating after as little as five years. I've kept them in the dark, I've kept them moderately cool and dry, but the glue used to stick the aluminium to the polycarbonate substrate simply perished after some time.

I have *hundreds* of CDs, some dating back to the dawn of CDs, and AFIACT, none of them are 'disintegrating'.  Long ago I discarded one or two 'classical' CDs that 'bronzed' due to a defect that was publicized at the time.  That's it, after 30+ years of CD buying.

Most of my CDs are fine, too. Hence I said several, not all of them. I have mid 80's CDs which are good as new, and I have late 90's CDs which stopped working (I still keep them, though). It seems there have been several errors with CD pressings. My guess is, that there are simply different suppliers of the substrate, the glue and the production process. Every once in a while there were simply errors introduced.

Quote from: krabapple on
But I rip everything to hard drive now anyway,for the convenience of playback. And I ditch the nasty plastic cases. And of course I have backups of the drives, in various locations.

I mostly don't rip, actually. When I get an LP from Amazon, you usually get a code for a free FLAC download, which is pretty awesome. Other than that, I mostly switched to cloud based music storage. It's by far the most convenient for me. I used to rip CDs, but the last CD I bought was in 2008 or something. I went digital download from there.
I must say though, that I don't have all music in best quality FLAC, though. Some music I listen almost only to in my car or when I'm in public transport. Those files are tiny Opus files by now, so I can stream them from my cloud at almost no data transfer contingency and in real time.

Quote from: krabapple on
Quote
The best way to "save" a music collection is to have several identical digital copies of it. This includes RAIDs, that some of us have, or the kind of failure contingency cloud providers have these days. Redundancy is the best thing to prevent loss in case something goes awry (like house on fire, etc.), so me liking Vinyl is contradictory to that as crap. But the fact that they can perish, the fragility and the uniqueness, is what's also quite appealing to me. They're getting rare, and I guess that's what I value them for.

CDs will inevitably be rare some day and are already considered antiquated tech.

Fair enough - and I think that's pretty much a given, considering most of my students refer to DVDs as "ancient technology" a;ready, without trying to be funny or hipstery.

But the thing with vinyl is, that it's so nicely cumbersome. But what sets vinyl apart, is that it's so wonderfully cumbersome, but also simple. You can "decode" a vinyl with a sewing needle and a piece of paper. The first time I've done this with my dad, I was amazed. You can't do this kind of "exploring" with a CD, you always will need a comparably complicated playback device.

If you don't like LPs, OK, I'm totally fine with that. But what I'd like to reiterate, is that this is not a debate about quality. This is merely a debate about preference.
Yes vinyl does sound good - for its time. Especially after they stopped putting everything on those cheap Dynaflex records, sound was (and still is) amazing for a record from 1972, that has been well kept. Most of my records from the mid 50's sound like you'd expect them to sound, mostly noise, with no base, and mastering so they'd withstand abuse of the styluses of the.

The whole debate about comparing it to digital media is just tiring for me. To me as an electronics engineer and programmer, it comes down to physical properties. I don't know what the frequency response is, but if anyone would show me a spectral response plot, chances are the same response can be achieved with DACs and filtering.
When it comes to things like bit resolution, it's pretty much only related to noise floor characteristics.

Whenever this debate flames up, I can only link this video: http://www.xiph.org/video/vid1.shtml

The idiots that wrote the article should maybe watch it. But I believe that it's not gonna solve the problem here. As already stated, it's mostly geared towards the uninformed fools, that are good consumers to pseudoscientific articles like that. It's all about selling it to a hungry crowd, just so much to keep them hungry, but also not starving them.

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #77 –
Quote from: polemon on
I don't like CDs though. I've had several CD simply perish on me. Remember when they promised us, that CDs will last 100 years with no sound degradation? Yeah, well some of my CDs started disintegrating after as little as five years. I've kept them in the dark, I've kept them moderately cool and dry, but the glue used to stick the aluminium to the polycarbonate substrate simply perished after some time.


That's fine, but just because you've had this experience doesn't make CD crap because you'l find 99.999999999999999% of people have probably had no issues what-so-ever. I've not had a single issue with any CD I've ever bought. Well, except for those ones that get a bit scratched due to being put in cardboard cases that you can't get them out of.

Quote from: polemon on
The best way to "save" a music collection is to have several identical digital copies of it. This includes RAIDs, that some of us have, or the kind of failure contingency cloud providers have these days. Redundancy is the best thing to prevent loss in case something goes awry (like house on fire, etc.), so me liking Vinyl is contradictory to that as crap. But the fact that they can perish, the fragility and the uniqueness, is what's also quite appealing to me. They're getting rare, and I guess that's what I value them for.


RAID is NOT a backup solution!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you like vinyl that's fine, just don't go moaning at people that don't or moaning at CDs just because you have different preferences.

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #78 –
Quote from: probedb on
Quote from: polemon on
I don't like CDs though. I've had several CD simply perish on me. Remember when they promised us, that CDs will last 100 years with no sound degradation? Yeah, well some of my CDs started disintegrating after as little as five years. I've kept them in the dark, I've kept them moderately cool and dry, but the glue used to stick the aluminium to the polycarbonate substrate simply perished after some time.


That's fine, but just because you've had this experience doesn't make CD crap because you'l find 99.999999999999999% of people have probably had no issues what-so-ever. I've not had a single issue with any CD I've ever bought. Well, except for those ones that get a bit scratched due to being put in cardboard cases that you can't get them out of.

No it doesn't and I haven't stated that in any form. All I said, it happened (also, I've elaborated on that into a different post in the meantime).

Quote from: probedb on
Quote from: polemon on
The best way to "save" a music collection is to have several identical digital copies of it. This includes RAIDs, that some of us have, or the kind of failure contingency cloud providers have these days. Redundancy is the best thing to prevent loss in case something goes awry (like house on fire, etc.), so me liking Vinyl is contradictory to that as crap. But the fact that they can perish, the fragility and the uniqueness, is what's also quite appealing to me. They're getting rare, and I guess that's what I value them for.


RAID is NOT a backup solution!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was not referring to backups. I was referring to a reliable solution for high availability. Not once have I stated "backups". The kind of security backups I have in mind, involve LTO tapes which we've been using at the institute that I work at for the last twenty five years.

Quote from: probedb on
If you like vinyl that's fine, just don't go moaning at people that don't or moaning at CDs just because you have different preferences.

I wasn't. And please don't turn this into an uninformed battle about nothing.

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #79 –
Quote from: polemon on
I was not referring to backups. I was referring to a reliable solution for high availability. Not once have I stated "backups". The kind of security backups I have in mind, involve LTO tapes which we've been using at the institute that I work at for the last twenty five years.


Your quote

Quote
Redundancy is the best thing to prevent loss in case something goes awry


It isn't. Offsite backups are the only way to prevent this. RAID won't prevent you losing data in the event of a fire.

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #80 –
I enjoy vinyl and CD (and other formats) for the fun and curiosity of the unique features of each format. However, for the simple task of reliably and conveniently listening to music, they all have drawbacks. For example, they take too much space, and are too easily damaged.

I guess it's like owning a vintage car. There's obvious joy and interest in owning a vintage car, but it's not about getting from A to B reliably and conveniently.

Vinyl is like the vintage car. It's great. There are lots of things to love. But some of the claims of superiority are just fanciful.

Cheers,
David.

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #81 –
Quote from: probedb on
Quote from: polemon on
I was not referring to backups. I was referring to a reliable solution for high availability. Not once have I stated "backups". The kind of security backups I have in mind, involve LTO tapes which we've been using at the institute that I work at for the last twenty five years.

Your quote
Quote
Redundancy is the best thing to prevent loss in case something goes awry

It isn't. Offsite backups are the only way to prevent this. RAID won't prevent you losing data in the event of a fire.

I can only reiterate, that I was not referring to backups. If I was, I would've said so. Please stop turning this discussion into a senseless flamewar, nobody's going to benefit from that. You've done your damage control.

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #82 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
I enjoy vinyl and CD (and other formats) for the fun and curiosity of the unique features of each format. However, for the simple task of reliably and conveniently listening to music, they all have drawbacks. For example, they take too much space, and are too easily damaged.

LPs are also pretty heavy. A standard IKEA shelf is not going to hold them without warping like crazy.

Quote from: 2Bdecided on
I guess it's like owning a vintage car. There's obvious joy and interest in owning a vintage car, but it's not about getting from A to B reliably and conveniently.

Vinyl is like the vintage car. It's great. There are lots of things to love. But some of the claims of superiority are just fanciful.

Pretty much exactly how I see it.

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #83 –
Quote from: polemon on
LPs are also pretty heavy. A standard IKEA shelf is not going to hold them without warping like crazy.
Like many other people, I have thousands in Expedit without problems. Standard 18mm chipboard "bookshelves" don't even like books!

Cheers,
David.

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #84 –
Quote from: Heisenberg on
I have never run into more pricks in my life than I have in trying to do a little homework on buying audio equipment.


You think it is bad now? Back in the days when audio was cool...

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #85 –
Quote from: polemon on
Well, yes, to me it kinda would. The form has to at least hint at the function, when not following it. Otherwise this would not appeal to me. You can spin this further out, like going straight for the coffee table book. Or just ditch the coffee table book, go straight for the kindle version... No wait, ditch even that and just browse the bands website on your tablet.
It's not about relevance here, it's about a certain connotation of the product.


I get what you are saying; we just disagree what the connotations 'need' to  be.  That's purely a matter of taste.  The product I miss is not the big black plastic platters in the sleeves.  It's the sleeves 


Quote
But the thing with vinyl is, that it's so nicely cumbersome. But what sets vinyl apart, is that it's so wonderfully cumbersome, but also simple. You can "decode" a vinyl with a sewing needle and a piece of paper. The first time I've done this with my dad, I was amazed. You can't do this kind of "exploring" with a CD, you always will need a comparably complicated playback device.


Yes, it's pretty amazing that records work as well as they do.  (Though a lot of development went into that technology too --  as dozens if not hundreds of articles in old JAES issues attest)

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #86 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Yes, it's pretty amazing that records work as well as they do.  (Though a lot of development went into that technology too --  as dozens if not hundreds of articles in old JAES issues attest)


Agreed. If memory serves the JAES & IEEE articles about new developments for vinyl had pretty well stopped coming about half a decade before the CD was introduced.

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #87 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Quote from: polemon on
LPs are also pretty heavy. A standard IKEA shelf is not going to hold them without warping like crazy.
Like many other people, I have thousands in Expedit without problems. Standard 18mm chipboard "bookshelves" don't even like books!
They actually stopped making them. They have a replacement product though (which is incompatible to Expedit). The internal dimensions (of the box compartments) are the same, though.

Quote from: krabapple on
Quote from: polemon on
Well, yes, to me it kinda would. The form has to at least hint at the function, when not following it. Otherwise this would not appeal to me. You can spin this further out, like going straight for the coffee table book. Or just ditch the coffee table book, go straight for the kindle version... No wait, ditch even that and just browse the bands website on your tablet.
It's not about relevance here, it's about a certain connotation of the product.
I get what you are saying; we just disagree what the connotations 'need' to  be.  That's purely a matter of taste.  The product I miss is not the big black plastic platters in the sleeves.  It's the sleeves 
I miss the elaborate sleeves, but it can be nicely done in a small form factor as well: I have a Wagner classical album, that came with a hardcover 50 page book, the size of a jewel case. That I liked. But I can see how those versions are pretty expensive. And packaging a book with every CD seems not really necessary or feasible, too. I just wished they were a bit more creative. The debate about this is pretty much over due to downloadable or streaming content, though. I don't see why people would even do things like CD covers anymore (which almost were a form of art themselves), so I guess that's gone. Then again, maybe that's something that hasn't anything to do with music as such. Kinda like movie posters are a form of advertisement for the movie, and not part of the movie itself, but kind of art as well.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: krabapple on
Yes, it's pretty amazing that records work as well as they do.  (Though a lot of development went into that technology too --  as dozens if not hundreds of articles in old JAES issues attest)
Agreed. If memory serves the JAES & IEEE articles about new developments for vinyl had pretty well stopped coming about half a decade before the CD was introduced.
I remember someone telling me that there was some form of development going into it post-2000. A DJ once told me that there are quite some differences between an LP from 2010 and one from 2000. Mostly so the plastic is tougher to withstand higher stylus weights, not as prone to warping when stored at higher temperatures, etc. But obviously this type of development was not driven by large companies or institutes. In clubs things like music quality doesn't really matter, for obvious reasons. I find it funny that it's there, that vinyl is still used quite routinely, although digital controllers are taking over, of course.

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #88 –
Quote from: polemon on
I don't see why people would even do things like CD covers anymore (which almost were a form of art themselves), so I guess that's gone. Then again, maybe that's something that hasn't anything to do with music as such. Kinda like movie posters are a form of advertisement for the movie, and not part of the movie itself, but kind of art as well.


There was a time when the cover art and the music could form a gestalt -- band's albums were identified  strongly with a certain consistent visual sensibility.  It wasn't just advertising.  It was part of the 'mystique' of the band.

e.g





and even in a more modern era, some carried that tradition on





Shrinking all that down to a CD size, or eliminating it completely, certainly does dim the mystique a bit, for me.

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #89 –
In Through the Out Door

Several versions of the cover under the paper outer sleeve. The inside sleeve was pigmented and would permanently turn color if gotten wet.

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #90 –
Quote from: greynol on
In Through the Out Door

Several versions of the cover under the paper outer sleeve. The inside sleeve was pigmented and would permanently turn color if gotten wet.



Sure.  And the 'LZ III' and  'Physical Graffiti' covers where the physical cover *needs* to be present.

I've got a bunch of Japanese CDs that duplicate the original artwork of such albums, down to the moving parts....they're exquisite little replicas, but lack the originals' impact.






'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #91 –
Quote from: krabapple on
There was a time when the cover art and the music could form a gestalt -- band's albums were identified  strongly with a certain consistent visual sensibility.  It wasn't just advertising.  It was part of the 'mystique' of the band.
...
Shrinking all that down to a CD size, or eliminating it completely, certainly does dim the mystique a bit, for me.

Could it be argued that the music video has essentially taken over this role?

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #92 –
Quote from: cliveb on
Quote from: krabapple on
There was a time when the cover art and the music could form a gestalt -- band's albums were identified  strongly with a certain consistent visual sensibility.  It wasn't just advertising.  It was part of the 'mystique' of the band.
...
Shrinking all that down to a CD size, or eliminating it completely, certainly does dim the mystique a bit, for me.

Could it be argued that the music video has essentially taken over this role?


There is no technical reason why this could not be the case, but IME it rarely if ever is.

IME LP covers notes are generally some mixture of display art, sales blurb and tutorial. CD boxed sets can come close or even surpass the experience provided by LP covers. For DVD and BD discs their multimedia technical capabilities could do a stunning job of conveying the same information and more, but I can't recall ever experiencing this with my own media or any media belonging to friends.
 

'Science' Shows There's Only One Real Way to Listen to Mus

Reply #93 –
Quote from: cliveb on
Quote from: krabapple on
There was a time when the cover art and the music could form a gestalt -- band's albums were identified  strongly with a certain consistent visual sensibility.  It wasn't just advertising.  It was part of the 'mystique' of the band.
...
Shrinking all that down to a CD size, or eliminating it completely, certainly does dim the mystique a bit, for me.

Could it be argued that the music video has essentially taken over this role?



ack,no!