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Topic: Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations (Read 58666 times) previous topic - next topic
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Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations

Reply #75 –
I do my rips to a standalone cd-r for ease, but if I were using a computer I would do 24/96.

There is no need for 24 bits for playback.  I have a phono preamp that Stereophile said was extraordinarly quiet (Linn Linto) which means s/n of 85 dB (a weighted), 66 dB broadband. I also have an Ortofon test record which has recorded bands of -40dB, -50dB, -60dB, -70db, and "greater than -70dB").  Based on that, even with very fine equipment (VPI deck, SME arm, Lyra cartridge) I can't hear a difference with the last band, implying that the effective s/n of my vinyl playback/amps is between 60 and 70 dB.  That's no better than 12 bits.

However, when setting levels, there is always the chance of clipping.  The s/n for SIGNAL may only be 65 dB, but scratches and other defects can be greater in amplitude than the highest signal.  Plus you can always underestimate what the peak level will be, especially with classical (esp. if you're not familiar with the piece).  Everything's going peachy, peaking at -6, then boom, it gets louder and you get clipping.  With 24 bit, I could set levels with hardly a care, say at -35 dB, and not worry about clipping.  Also, when you store in flac, if you didn't use the last 6 bits, you don't store them.

I would keep the files in 24/96 flac b/c storage is cheap and because I understand post-processing is more transparent in hi-rez.

That's just what I would do.

Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations

Reply #76 –
Axon, while I may miss some of the finer points of your explanation that 24 bits may be necessary to capture everything from LPs, if I'm not misunderstanding completely, a simplified statement of your hypothesis is that, at higher frequencies, the noise inherent in vinyl is low enough that distinguishable music signal below the 16 bit level might exist at those higher frequencies. This signal would be lost if one records from the LP at 16 bit.

A frequency distribution graph is an easy way to see that the unmodulated groove noise is below the 16 bit level, if considered in a narrow enough frequency range. Making such graphs on between track selections of a few of my recent transfers shows the noise level dropping below -100dBfs somewhere between 600 and 1000 Hz.

Since the noise we perceive is the sum over a more extensive range, I doubt, but don't really know, that the SNR of the recording we listen to would permit hearing any music signal more than 16 bit down anyway, even in a 24 bit integer or a floating point capture. Even without the disk noise, I think any such low level signal would be swamped by any "normal" level signal, say at -70dBfs, regardless of its frequency.

However, I question the hypothesis that, if such signal exists, it would not be captured in a 16 bit recording.

Harkening to my recent post in the other 16 bit vs 24 bit thread,
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....9843&st=200
on page 9, made on 05/30/2011 at 01:01 AM (unfortunately, I don't know the coding to link directly to that post), I wrote that I could not distinguish between the 32 bit floating point and 16 bit integer versions when I "properly" converted to 16 bit. Where I could tell which is which, it was, I suspect, only because the non noise shaped dither I used is not only audible, but significantly louder than the signal. Perhaps if there is someone who can hear the mostly high-frequency dither in the noise shaped conversion, both 16 bit versions could be easily enough distinguished from the higher bit depth original.

These tests were (1) with a 3500Hz sine wave generated at -115dBfs, and (2) with the same tone at -100dBfs. Without dithering, a proper conversion to 16 bit of either signal level produces a flat nothing. There is no signal left to hear. With dither, and enough analogue amplification, I can  hear the tone easily in both 16 bit conversions, although neither test signal is at a high enough level to contribute anything audible if mixed with any real music.

When recording from vinyl, one is never without dither. It is there in the broadband noise from the disk and in the broadband noise in the phono preamp. It isn't optimum dither, but neither is the non-shaped rectangular stuff in my tests. My hypothesis is that, because of the inherent noise, if any such low level, higher frequency signal exists, it will be captured as well at 16 bits as at 24 bits.


Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations

Reply #77 –
Hi All -

I recently stumbled upon this very informative and mostly enlightening topic, though I must confess, it is a tad beyond me when the deep technical details are conveyed. My sole interest here is listening to music via my pc and the Winamp player, either thru headphones or a standard 2-channel mini-plug out connection to my stereo system. I have been in the process of collecting audio files, many of which are only available as 24-bit and either 96 or 192 kHz. Now, after my reading of this topic (and please correct me wherever wrong), I am getting the understanding that the investment in time & materiel for efforts to create the hi-res files are a worthwhile endeavor for the extraction of the audio from the source material. However, I also seem to learning here that for the purpose of just listening (playback), audio files of 16-bit/44.1kHz, which I believe it was mentioned  is the standard CD numbers, is more than adequate in light of one's understanding of our human anatomy specification. If my understanding is thus far on target, it seems that I can convert all the hi-res audio I have collected to the CD standard, thereby gaining additional disk space, and not be the wiser for anything lost. From the files I have collected thus far, on average, using 24-96 example, I am calculating a 3:1 difference in file sizes. I appreciate and welcome anyone's thoughts as to whether I should embark on this task.

thnx, -Marcos

Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations

Reply #78 –
Quote from: AndyH-ha on
Harkening to my recent post in the other 16 bit vs 24 bit thread,
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....9843&st=200
on page 9, made on 05/30/2011 at 01:01 AM (unfortunately, I don't know the coding to link directly to that post),



In the upper right corner of every HA post there's a clickable link that says Post

Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations

Reply #79 –
Thanks for the posting information

Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations

Reply #80 –
Quote from: MourningStar on
Hi All -

I recently stumbled upon this very informative and mostly enlightening topic, though I must confess, it is a tad beyond me when the deep technical details are conveyed. My sole interest here is listening to music via my pc and the Winamp player, either thru headphones or a standard 2-channel mini-plug out connection to my stereo system. I have been in the process of collecting audio files, many of which are only available as 24-bit and either 96 or 192 kHz. Now, after my reading of this topic (and please correct me wherever wrong), I am getting the understanding that the investment in time & materiel for efforts to create the hi-res files are a worthwhile endeavor for the extraction of the audio from the source material. However, I also seem to learning here that for the purpose of just listening (playback), audio files of 16-bit/44.1kHz, which I believe it was mentioned  is the standard CD numbers, is more than adequate in light of one's understanding of our human anatomy specification. If my understanding is thus far on target, it seems that I can convert all the hi-res audio I have collected to the CD standard, thereby gaining additional disk space, and not be the wiser for anything lost. From the files I have collected thus far, on average, using 24-96 example, I am calculating a 3:1 difference in file sizes. I appreciate and welcome anyone's thoughts as to whether I should embark on this task.

thnx, -Marcos

Well, this must either be a low-traffic forum or my post is of minimal-to-no interest, or something else. Nevertheless, I have decided as follows :

The low cost of storage is not really relevant and I apologize for originally pointing out the file size differences and inadvertently giving the impression that it was of significant concern to me. While the inexpense of storage nowadays is welcome, in my case I will forever be wanting for more, given the amount of files (audio, video, artwork/images, documents etc.) I collect and, thus, must commit to external storage.

All authoring is not always equal and it is therefore possible for certain hi-rez files to be inferior. This I conclude from an understanding of authoring competence, as well as equipment quality, configuration and usage. Unless logical reasons to the contrary surface, it now seems my best approach to this task is to convert each file, do an a/b listen and then decide which to keep and which to discard. In the event of a tie, the choice seems obvious.

-thnx all

Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations

Reply #81 –
Your lack of readership was perhaps because you posted in an existing thread that was only superficially related to your question, as discouraged by Term of Service #2. I’m sure there is much discussion to be had on the topic, but this particular thread may not be the ideal venue.

Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations

Reply #82 –
Quote from: dv1989 on
Your lack of readership was perhaps because you posted in an existing thread that was only superficially related to your question, as discouraged by Term of Service #2. I’m sure there is much discussion to be had on the topic, but this particular thread may not be the ideal venue.

You and/or the mods are most welcome to re-locate my posts to where appropriate. Thank you for enlightening me.

Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations

Reply #83 –
I assume you're using lossless compression (e.g. FLAC)? If not, use that.

As for downsampling, use 44.1/16 if you think you'll ever burn to CD or need to use on something that only supports 44.1kHz (e.g. some legacy DAPs, some versions of flash), and probably 48/16 or 48/20 if you think you won't.

lossyWAV (used without noise shaping, and with highly conservative settings) can throw away the LSBs when they're not needed, but keep those extra bits (i.e. more than 16) in the rare moments when they are / may be. This can bring the FLAC bitrate down dramatically, without resampling.

Cheers,
David.

Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations

Reply #84 –
^
thnx David

Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations

Reply #85 –
Quote from: navalverde on
Hello,

I am currently using an EMU 1616M to rip vinyl and using Sony Sound Forge 10 to record with.  I am wondering what the best settings are to use for exporting the .WAV files.  I have the option to record in 24bit or 32 bit at 192 Khz and save the

.WAVs in using IEEE Float or PCM.  I am wondering if it would be best to record in 32bit and bounce down to 24 when I export to .WAV, or just record in 24 if there won't be any difference.  No matter what I will need a 24 bit file in the end to

convert to .flac as it is the highest bit rate the format supports.


Furthermore, I am confused as to whether to use IEEE Float or PCM.  I understand the IEEE float was developed for the broadcast industry while PCM is used in the red book CD standard.  I'm guessing when I convert to .flac it will end up as PCM

anyway and am not sure if I would get any benefits from utilizing IEEE Float.  If anybody can shed some light on this I would be most appreciative and believe this sort of information should be included in a wiki somewhere as I have been unable to

find any useful information as to the pros can cons of IEEE Float and PCM .WAV files with regards to audiophile needs.


I would recommend you record in either 24-bit / 96kHz if you need to save some space, or in 24-bit / 192kHz if you want the best quality at the expense of extra space. Recording in PCM is fine.

Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations

Reply #86 –
Or you could read the rest of the thread, which may leave various technical issues open for debate but seems to be converging on the opinion that a sample-rate of 192 kHz is definitely a needless use of disk-space and that one of 96 kHz may well be the same. There are unlikely to be any such high frequencies, those that exist probably aren’t musical and therefore won’t be worth saving, and good luck hearing any of them anyway; we’d all be very interested in how you did it.

By the middle of the first page, the OP was already becoming convinced:
Quote from: navalverde on
I had orignially assumed that a higher sampling rate would result in a more accurate copy of an analog signal given the increase in samples per second, yet it seems as you say 44.1khz is more than enough to replicate everything in the 20hz-20khz bandwidth according to Nyquist.  This then makes me wonder why we even have 24/192 dacs in the first place except to sell stuff or make use of some psychoacoustical effect of higher frequencies or if there is a secret audiophile community of dogs somewhere...


While we’re re-treading old ground, a previous post:

Quote from: krabapple on
Do the transfer at 24 bits for sure -- you lose nothing, and you gain peace of mind.  Your editing/declicking software is going to do everything in high-bit domains anyway (I hope).

Use a 88.2 or 96 kHz sample rate if you have a nagging feeling that 44.1 is merely adequate and again want peace of mind.  As Dan Lavry (who builds pro ADCs for a living)  has written,
"In fact all the objections regarding audio sampling at 44.1KHz, (including the arguments relating to pre-ringing of an FIR filter) are long gone by increasing sampling to about 60KHz."

Sampling a vinyl record at 192kHz is utter absurdity.

So do your transfer at 88.2/24bit.  Your files will be bigger than the really need to be, but not idiotically  so.

Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations

Reply #87 –
I have transferred about 100 of my 2000lps to hardrive so far.
From some direct a/b comparisons I can only say that I was not able to discern a difference between the rip and the direct from lp playback. (one has to cue very precise to get gapless switching correct). I convert using a customized ex-studio phono preamp feeding an m-audio 1010lt soundcard. 
I  transfer using 16/44.1, and then converting the wav. file to flac for playback in foobar. I keep the wav.f files for later editing in a separate folder.
I use a small program called "spin it again" for transfer (I have trouble using the audacity program) tagging the tracks, and mp3 tag for album art tagging.
I do not see any reason to use higher sampling rates than 16/44.1

Ripping Vinyl 192khz 24bit Considerations

Reply #88 –
As for me, I do my rips in a 44.1/16 format and have never claimed that higher resolution and sampling frequency may be beneficial for vinyl rip quality.
I'm convinced, as an electronics specialist and scrupulous listener, that properly performed digital conversion absolutely doesn't worsen the original analogue signal, otherwise I wouldn't spend time and efforts to rip all 300 LPs of my vinyl collection.
I don't ignore post-conversion processing, although prefer to do clicks elimination manually.
Excessive vinyl disc noise, whether originated from a noisy master tape or acquired in the course of vinyl pressing, isn't a problem, I cure it with the help of an original noise reducer just after the phono preamplifier, operation of this device is demonstrated at the mentioned above site.