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Topic: SACD/DVD-A are useless (Read 44292 times) previous topic - next topic
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SACD/DVD-A are useless

So we recently got an SACD player. After fooling around with the Bob Dylan SACD remasters a bit, I came to the conclusion that SACD is pretty much useless. and here's why.

1. the difference was negligible. listening to "Blood on the Tracks" I couldn't hear anything new on the SACD layer

2. Even if there were a detectable difference, it would be so miniscule as to not be worth it. I'm increasingly subscribing to the notion that music is really a transmittance of ideas. as long as the idea get get past in a clear enough manner, that's all that matters

3. the convienience factor. I can't play SACD's on my computer and I can't rip them into mp3's for my rio karma

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #1 –
Quote
So we recently got an SACD player. After fooling around with the Bob Dylan SACD remasters a bit, I came to the conclusion that SACD is pretty much useless. and here's why.

1. the difference was negligible. listening to "Blood on the Tracks" I couldn't hear anything new on the SACD layer

2. Even if there were a detectable difference, it would be so miniscule as to not be worth it. I'm increasingly subscribing to the notion that music is really a transmittance of ideas. as long as the idea get get past in a clear enough manner, that's all that matters

3. the convienience factor. I can't play SACD's on my computer and I can't rip them into mp3's for my rio karma
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=267127"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


heheh
long time no see (threads on CD vs DVD-A vs SACD)

3.
I wonder if it's possible to extract at least raw sectors of an SACD with a DVD drive. Ripping would then consist of
- decrypting the data (crypted DST -> plain DST)
- decompressing the stream (DST->DSD)
- converting (DSD -> PCM)

At least for the latter task I've got working code. 


SebastianG

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #2 –
You actually found reasons for not using DVD-A and SACD that don't have anything to do with their technological uselessless. I am impressed.

I also think they are useless, as I consider physical discs good for hard copy backups, not media to be played back.

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #3 –
I can hear a definite difference when I play a DVD-A as opposed to a regular cd, but that difference can be for many reasons like surround sound playback, remixing, etc.  I also have the Bob Dylan SACD, and i wasnt too impressed by it.  Since there really is no way (as of yet) to backup dvd-a's or SACDs, I agree, its quite useless.  I wonder how one could ABX, perhaps somehow recording the DVD-A stereo layer digitally and downsampling then burning to a cd?

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #4 –
The SACD and DVD-A are IMO only new products for make money... and useless; I am very happy with PCM technology; very cheap, good sound and standard.
I am not a bat to hear the 100Khz frequency response of SACD technology  ;
This technology for me is very ridiculous... The real intention IMO with this technology is more control for the discs labels; Pure SACD (not hydrid) is not possible for digital rip....

NOTES: good sound = well mastered CDs...
Well mastered CDs = very strange thing in those days the bad audio engineers...

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #5 –
Well mastered CDs unfortunately seem to be something of the past

I agree with everyone here.  The only possible improvement SACD and DVD-A have over CD-DA is multichannel.  But since every sound system I have is 2 channel I have absolutely no use for them.

And yeah the inability to rip them really really sucks.  If I can't play my music on my computer or my DAP then I'm just no happy 
Nero AAC 1.5.1.0: -q0.45

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #6 –
Quote
The only possible improvement SACD and DVD-A have over CD-DA is multichannel.  But since every sound system I have is 2 channel I have absolutely no use for them.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=267165"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The same for me... 

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #7 –
I could hear a significant difference between an album that I have on CD and DVD-A when I listen through my headphones. 

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #8 –
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I could hear a significant difference between an album that I have on CD and DVD-A when I listen through my headphones. 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=267172"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It's probably if both albums were mastered different...

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #9 –
Actually the album is on a dualdisc that has a CD side remastered as well as the DVD-A side.

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #10 –
Quote
I could hear a significant difference between an album that I have on CD and DVD-A when I listen through my headphones. 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=267172"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The problem is, how do you ABX that to make sure?

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #11 –
i did a "not quite" abx by burning a copy of the cd side, putting the two discs into random slots in my carousel, and switching between the two.

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #12 –
Quote
i did a "not quite" abx by burning a copy of the cd side, putting the two discs into random slots in my carousel, and switching between the two.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=267178"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The DVD-A Side and the CD Side are the same album and same songs?

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #13 –
yes, it was the Nine Inch Nails' "The Downward Spiral" DVD-A Dualdisc.

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #14 –
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yes, it was the Nine Inch Nails' "The Downward Spiral" DVD-A Dualdisc.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=267180"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hmmm... interesting..
Probably was that the two Sides were mastered different... Some people here in HA (I don't remember in this moment the thread) have analyzed different masters to same Albums with different technologies (probably this is one case, I assume, I am not sure).

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #15 –
Isn't it the general practice to master the SACD or DVD-A layer very well and the CD-DA layer very poorly to convince the uninformed layman that the newer formats are better?
Nero AAC 1.5.1.0: -q0.45

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #16 –
Quote
Isn't it the general practice to master the SACD or DVD-A layer very well and the CD-DA layer very poorly to convince the uninformed layman that the newer formats are better?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=267183"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It's very probably.. SONY (for example) is very interest in to promove this technology (SACD) with the intention of to displace the CDDA. I suspect that probably this is a strategy of the disc labels..

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #17 –
if that was always the case, i dont what the point would be to have a dualdisc with a remastered cd side when you could buy the original release. 

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #18 –
Quote
Isn't it the general practice to master the SACD or DVD-A layer very well and the CD-DA layer very poorly to convince the uninformed layman that the newer formats are better?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=267183"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I agree, unless you are 100% certain that the CDA and SACD tracks are mastered identically then any ABX is invalid. Personally I wouldn't be one bit surprised if they did release these "dualdiscs" with different mastering in attempt to fool people into thinking that the new technology really offers some inherent advantage. I'm still pretty doubtful that there will be any audable difference for normal 2 channel stereo music.

I think the only way that we'll get a true ABX comparision is if someone ever figures out a way to rip SACD, then it will be interesting.

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #19 –
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I think the only way that we'll get a true ABX comparision is if someone ever figures out a way to rip SACD, then it will be interesting.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=267189"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Good point...
Does someone know something?

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #20 –
>>Does someone know something?
  No.
But what about digital outputs ?
What is transferred thru it when playing SACD disk on SACD player ?
It could be 44100(48000) 16Bit PCM convertion or 1Bit XMhz SACD, but I bet it is PCM 

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #21 –
Quote
2. Even if there were a detectable difference, it would be so miniscule as to not be worth it. I'm increasingly subscribing to the notion that music is really a transmittance of ideas. as long as the idea get get past in a clear enough manner, that's all that matters
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=267127"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


This is probably true for Bob Dylan, but I wouldn't say the same for Pink Floyd.

Now 5.1 mix can really improve the perception of the music, but even for that SACD/DVDA is overkill. DTS (sometimes added on DVDA) is good enough for 5.1 ... but there is no protection scheme in it. Go figure

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #22 –
Quote
I think the only way that we'll get a true ABX comparision is if someone ever figures out a way to rip SACD, then it will be interesting.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=267189"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's not at all difficult to get A/D converters that have been demonstrated as completely transparent during ABX testing (eg. Lucid, Apogee, Prism if you're very rich). It is therefore trivial to record the analogue output of an SACD player and record it as a standard 44.1kHz 16bit PCM file via such a converter, which can then be burned to a normal CD. Let's see the SACD supporters then successfully ABX the original SACD and a CD copy of it made in the above manner. Unfortunately I own neither an SACD player nor a high-end A/D converter (I have no need for them), so I can't perform this test myself.

(Of course, there's still the possibility that an unscrupulous SACD player manufacturer might deliberately nobble the playback from a standard CD in order to show SACD in a better light. But to be frank I can't think even Sony would stoop that low).

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #23 –
I remember two accounts of a different mastering on the CD layer and the SACD layer of a hybrid SACD.
The first one is Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon : http://www.stereophile.com/news/11649/index.html
The second one was a mail from Michael Bishop of Telarc records : http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....61&#entry235661

On the other hand, I read in a listening test report between the CD layer and the SACD layer of a hybrid SACD, that the tester had contacted Chesky records in order to have the confirmation that both layers came from the same master, without special processing between them. Their answer was positive. But I can't find the webpage where it was published.

SACD/DVD-A are useless

Reply #24 –
Quote
Quote
i did a "not quite" abx by burning a copy of the cd side, putting the two discs into random slots in my carousel, and switching between the two.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=267178"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The DVD-A Side and the CD Side are the same album and same songs?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=267179"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Are the headphones connected to the player, or to a receiver?
And, too is the player/receiver treating the two formats the same, in terms of levels? And there bass management or delay involved (shouldn't be, for headphones,  but you never know...)

An other issue if, of course, whether the DVD-A and CD layers are mastered the same.  To check this one might record the analog output of each and compare the .wav files using Audition or some other wav editor.  (in the case of the Dark Side of the Moon SACD vs CD layers, it was definitely NOT the case that the two formats were identical masters, as was demonstrated by an online investigator, and by Stereophile magazine.  The CD layer, in that case, is more dynamically compressed than the SACD layer.)

Finally, absent any measurement,  there's the need to do the listening comparison 'blinded', and I don't see how this could have been done, at least as the comparison was described.