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Topic: X-Fi sound bugs? I think I have a solution. (Read 11013 times) previous topic - next topic
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X-Fi sound bugs? I think I have a solution.

In spring 2006 I finally get my hands on X-Fi Fatal1ty card. The reason for upgrade from my Audigy2zs was mostly the pause bug, BF2 support (I started play BF2 a lot) and the X-ram thing, that provide 64MB soundbuffer that should dramaticaly reduce PCI load - hence give me some speed-up  Or so I thought. The first nasty surprise when I actually get the card in my hand was this:

And when shortly in game in one spot appears more sounds at once (your girl scream, mechanic move, buttons, alien...), the whole computer freeze. I remember the Jamicons and quickly pull the X-Fi out and replaced the big Jamicon (originaly a 220uF 16V) with Panny FM 470uF 16V as well, as two 100uF Jamicons with 120uF Panny FM ones.



The results.

I finished whole Prey in few days of hard gaming w/o crash or any problem. I went back to Mafia and - whoa, samples aren't lost anymore again. My apology, Czech programmers. I did not trusted in yours skils... :redface:  In adition, the pause bug is - GONE!

Pause bug - long story:
Quote
Pause bug
Long time ago I decided to upgrade my speakers. It was when Matrix Reloaded was released and I realized my own homemade apm + speakers are simply not enought. They can't handle the extremly low-frequency effects designed for subwoofers to "shake your world and body" combined with the music. The fight scene with many copy's of Agent Smith verzus Neo was shiny example of my speakers inequality - beside every friend visiting me was constantly asking where I bought them, because they play, well... very well :good:
So, to make some use of my SoundBlaster Live! 5.1 output I choosen a Genius SW-5.1 wooden speakers, because they sound damn good (with some modifications, better opamps, cables and stuff). Now the best AC3 decode was a AC3 filter. It sound damn good, however there also come the price. Every time I pause ANY movie using ANY player (Mplayer, Mplayer Classic, BSplay, SoubtitleWorkshop DS preview play, etc) and then quickly unpause it, it sometimes swap random channels. And believe me, hearing subwoofer efect from mid speaker and speaking of actors thru the subwoofer is not exactly exciting...
It was also (SB Live! 5.1) not capable of 24 bit output.

To fix this ughly pause bug and get 24bit, I go and bought Audigy soundcard. Later are revealed that the Audigy is not exactly 24bit at all and my ears kinda relalized it anyway. And futhermore, not only the quality of sound did not improve over SB Live! 5.1, but the pause bug become more frequent and it add a whole new trick. Most times the "channel swap" was not enought. Now it mostly push hi-volume noise into most or all channels...! Believe me, suddently hearing high volume noise from all the 6 channels will make you jump

To get true 24bit output AND get rid of the pause bug I bought later an Audigy 2 ZS card (after checking and realizing the simply Audigy 2 card witch friend has with same speakers, did not improve much of the sound), but the pause bug did not disappeared at all. That make me kinda furious and angry.

Yet about year and half back I invested again into Creative crap and bought a full-featured X-Fi Fatal1ty for enhancing my BF2 play experience and eventualy geting rid of the pause bug. That was likely the last time I bought anything from Creative. Not only I have to mod drivers to work/install on Win2k a bit, but they also suxx and the pausebug is still here.
I managed to get rid of it for some month or so, after I replace some major caps on the X-Fi, but as the other caps aging (and they are bad brand of caps also - something that is hard to believe in a $260 pricetag at the buy time product) I get the pause bug yet again.

So there you have proof, that Direct Show decoders seeking could be a problem, when using 5.1 output with 24bit AC3 filter settings and quickly do many random pause/unpause of a AC3/DTS movie.

It (the pause bug) travel with me on many different mainboards/CPUs and happen even in completelly new mobos - and even now, when I have mobo with all good caps and completely recapped PSU. I planing to get rid of it by complete X-Fi recapp + add enhanced and brutal PCI voltage filtering for the X-Fi + shielding the X-Fi.



Later.

So I added the frontpannel later (moth or so), but in like a week, problems and pausebug are there again. Frontpannel is full of Jamicons too, and it obviously accelerated the dying of Jamicons on card or so. I pulled it out, yet the pause bug is still there. No crashing, luckily.


I would like to hear from X-Fi and perhaps also Audigy2(zs) users about their experience and possibly about their sound bugs. There is so many people on Creative forum that claim to have similar issues as me, so... I wonder in how many cases this could be avoided just by using good caps and not Jamicon crap...



To completely recap X-Fi you need:

X-Fi Fata1ity
-------------
Remove and short 16x 22uF 16V Jamicon decoupling caps - C23, C50, C76, C77, C28, C55, C85, C83, C61, C32, C62, C26, C67, C36, C34 and C68. http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/165/xfi...ngcapsgoan9.jpg

1x Samxon GC 1000uF 6.3V (d8) Big Pope
2x Samxon GD 470uF 6.3V (d6.3) Big Pope
17x Panny FM 150uF 6.3V (d5) P12917-ND Digi-key
1x Panny FM 100uF 10V (d5) P12919-ND Digi-key
2x Panny FM 68uF 16V (d5) P12921-ND Digi-key
4x Panny FM 47uF 25V (d5) P12923-ND Digi-key
6x Black Gate N 4.7uF 50V (d5) - d6.3 can fit Sonic craft
2x Black Gate C 4.7uF 50V (d5) - d6.3 can fit Sonic craft

(you can ship the Black Gates and only remove the original caps off the card, if you are not plan to use the 10pin Creative connector and the AUX-IN connector near it)


Audigy 2zs
----------
3x 100uF 16V d6.3 (Jamicon) - P12922-ND
5x 47uf 16V d5 (Teapo) - P11196-ND
35x 22uF 16V d4 (Jamicon) - P11213-ND
5x 10uF 16V d4 (Jamicon) - P11212-ND
11x 4.7uF 50V d4 (Jamicon) - P10315-ND
3x 1uF 50V d4 (Wincap) - P10312-ND

(digi-key.com product numbers used)

X-Fi sound bugs? I think I have a solution.

Reply #1
Games must support X-RAM to utilize it.
So, for example, Mafia will not be using X-RAM, nor will your music.

I have an Audigy 2zs and am a very dedicated BF2 (and BF2142) player and haven't experienced any of the problems you speak of.

Last time I tried, playing anything in Foobar2k (Kernel mode) and launching BF2142 resulted in a system crash.
Just don't have anything playing while launching BF2 (Or BF2142). Its EA's great programming.

Quote
That is nonsense at best. Audio and computers capacitors don't mix!

AFAIK there isn't audio and computer capacitors...there's only capacitors...

Edit: Edit mania

X-Fi sound bugs? I think I have a solution.

Reply #2
...Audio and computers capacitors don't mix!...


THAT doesn't make any sense at all. Where did you get this "idea"? It sounds like "audiophile talk" to me which, obviously, doesn't make any sense at all.

I have Audigy 4 with no problems. But Creative is known for making problematic devices (to say the least). Your problem is a lot more likely to be caused by hardware (digital part) and/or software incompatibility.

X-Fi sound bugs? I think I have a solution.

Reply #3
This is a picture of X-Fi Fatal1ty by user Raggingbone that continue to have crashes and stuff with the card:



So, the volage regulation for the main X-Fi chip is made by TI PS54352 chip.
[a href="http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352" target="_blank"]http://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tps54352

The recommended use is this:

But not so major. It is obvious that complete recap of the Jamicon crap caps has to be done as well, as the audiojacks has to be gold-plated for the subwoofer connection, the whole subwoofer has to be recapped and possibly modified also, so there is a notable difference.

Ask the Nartional Semiconductor for there sample pieces of the LM4562MA in the SOIC NARROW version for free there:
http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM4562.html
And you can replace the there 4558 "things" used for the output channels :dev: There is also another opamps for mic in, line in and some more down there... So maybe a 6 opamps is not a bad idea.


PS2. parts list for SB0460 - X-FI Fatal1ty:
http://rapidshare.com/files/90009691/X-Fi_Fatal1ty_parts.txt
parts list for SB0550 - X-FI Elite Pro:
http://rapidshare.com/files/90009544/X-Fi_...e_Pro_parts.txt
...a good start

A few interesting (but not mine, Bichi's work) X-Fi mod pictures:
[a href="http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xfimod004ble9.jpg" target="_blank"]

Bad caps Jamicons are OFF my machine, HOOORAY!

The dynamic seems to be improved slightly, but that could be just in my head...
However replacing the suxxking Jami-crap working as DAC voltage stabilization and be connected on the FILT+ pin COULD change/improve the sound...
(bear in mind that my audio output AFTER the X-Fi is reasonably suxxking low-end one, and I did not have so good ears... so maybe someone else spot much more noticable difference - or dismis my claim of slight improvment there)




Voltage stabilizing for opamps is very important.


Voltage filering for the main X-Fi chip


Useless stuff is gone now.


Better voltage stabilization for the Wolfenson audio codec can't hurt too 

X-Fi holocaust
removed everything I did not use

X-Fi sound bugs? I think I have a solution.

Reply #4
Interesting thread, thanks for posting it. I do have some comments on your assertions, however.

No wonder when the Jamicon for main X-Fi chip is alredy leaking!
Are these real Jamicon caps? I have used this brand in some of my own designs for a long time without trouble. Strange that it would be leaking already.

PS. I just replaced the there output opamps from the old useless (they was used even in Audigy (1) !!!) MC4558C ( http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/...S/MC4558CD.html ) to the praised LM4562 ( http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/...NSC/LM4562.html ) opamps. It was kinda easy, however the changes are minimal. You cannot hear any difference in mp3 bellow 320kBi, that is for sure. When we talking about DTS 768kBi, well, ten there finally is some difference  But not so major.
Have you done measurements or ABX tests to confirm that this change is audible? It sounds a bit like "cargo cult engineering" to me - you don't seem to have done the measurements to back up your hypotheses.

Too radical? As intermediate step you can try replace these Jamicons with Panny FC 22uF 25V caps - and hear the difference. In fact, there is almost no difference after opamps exchange, but huge after caps exchange WITH already exchanged opamps...!
Have you done measurements to confirm that the circuit does actually behave differently with these mods? If so, have you done ABX tests to see if these measured changes are audible?


Why not use tantalum caps
http://www.hindawi.com/GetPDF.aspx?doi=10..../08827510212341
Read conclusion about noise in tantalum cap
The most important sources of fluctuation consist in regenerative microbreaks, fluctuation of polarisation and mechanical strain. The frequency dependence of noise spectral density in mHz region gives information on slow irreversible processes of tantalum pentoxide crystal-isation and oxide reduction. The self-healing process can improve sample quality due to leak-age current and noise reduction. :redface:
Eh? Look at figure 8 of that paper, and pay attention to the scales. These effects aren't anywhere near as large as you seem to think they are. mHz is milliHertz - cycles per thousand seconds.

Or there:
Low Noise Balanced Microphone Preamp
I also recommend against the use of tantalum capacitors, and regular readers will notice that I have not suggested them for any project (although there was one suggestion that you could use them if you wanted to). The only capacitor fault I have ever had to track down with an intermittent short circuit was a tantalum bead type - it was neither fun, nor easy to find :-(
Rod Elliot doesn't seem to like them because of reliability issues. Many electronic designers do like them. It's a bit out of my field, so I can't make a recommendation here (and Rod Elliot is a much better audio circuit designer than me), but you need to realize that Rod's conclusion and yours seem to be made for different reasons.


So, using tantalum caps in X-Fi are bad idea, alrough they might look as good choice at first and I must admit, I was considered them at first as well, but then I looked more deeply and contacted experts and they all recommended against it.

So out of a pure luck and based just on a intuition I tried the X-Fi w/o these caps and quess what - it played and playing well still! :dev: :wahaha:
What measurements have you done to ensure the circuit still works as designed with these mods?

Amazingly and not unsurprisingly, once the Jamicons are out of the audio loop now completely, the detail level in music increased hearably once again.
Did you record before and after samples for double blind tests. It might sound like I am unnecessarily on your case about this, but some level of testing and measurement is needed for good engineering - otherwise it's just electronic faith healing.

It is obvious that complete recap of the Jamicon crap caps has to be done as well, as the audiojacks has to be gold-plated for the subwoofer connection, the whole subwoofer has to be recapped and possibly modified also, so there is a notable difference.
Eh?

X-Fi sound bugs? I think I have a solution.

Reply #5
And what about fixing the pause bug in software? (e.g. player not really pausing the audio buffer but looping digital silence, hacking the drivers to work around the problematic hardware function etc.). There are some open source players that could be tweaked and it would solve the problem for ALL the users, not just you.
Won't buying a new sound card from a better vendor be much cheaper than the time and effort invested into hardware tweaking? You could work for money instead and then buy a new card rather than (probably) wasting hours of your time on uncertain outcome.

X-Fi sound bugs? I think I have a solution.

Reply #6
I'm sure if you measure this, that you won't get that improvement that you seem to hear.
Different caps aren't that kind of improvement.

 

X-Fi sound bugs? I think I have a solution.

Reply #7
I still can't help thinking that it would have been so much cheaper and easier to have bought one of the vastly superior CMI8738-based soundcards for $25 instead. Using d0gbert's free custom driver, you get bit-perfect reproduction on the S/PDIF output anyway. I guess it depends what you're using it for really. 

Cheers, Slipstreem.