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Topic: The last phono preamp thread (?) (Read 5855 times) previous topic - next topic
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The last phono preamp thread (?)

Hi everyone,

OK... I found another phono preamp, built into an old (mid 80's?) Fisher amplifier.  It seems like overkill to use this thing just for recording to digital (this is a 115 watt amp!), but I like the sound better than the one built into the Denon turntable, and I think you will too (will you let me know?)

Denon:

http://home.attbi.com/~fewtchmon/denon.mp3

Fisher:

http://home.attbi.com/~fewtchmon/fisher.mp3

Both wavs were recorded at the same point on the record, normalized to the same levels, then encoded using --alt-preset extreme.  The "phono input" and "Tape record output" was used on the Fisher amp, and no equalization of any kind was done in both cases.

I like the sound of the Fisher better, but can't tell a drastic difference visually with Cool Edit Pro (but I'm not experienced reading the graphs).  Any opinions, ABX results, etc? 

Edit - there's an extra click in the "fisher" mp3, so ABX probably won't do it

Edit2 -- I could also make these available as .PAC files if anyone's interested.

The last phono preamp thread (?)

Reply #1
As per my post on the original thread..  it might be an idea (for us spectral analysis users) to put up really short pac's of isolated clicks..

I see in these mp3's have a wider freq range..  the earlier ones had a decided rolloff around 16Khz..  not --alt preset extreme,  I'll bet..

I tried using a click buried in the music,  maybe I got too much other stuff in there,  but it seemed very flat,  no 6db/octave rise or fall.  Probably me, or the background filling in.

The last phono preamp thread (?)

Reply #2
Quote
Originally posted by JonPike
As per my post on the original thread..  it might be an idea (for us spectral analysis users) to put up really short pac's of isolated clicks..

I see in these mp3's have a wider freq range..  the earlier ones had a decided rolloff around 16Khz..  not --alt preset extreme,  I'll bet..

Strange, cuz I think they were --alt-preset extreme.  I don't know what the cause of the rolloff was.

Anyway, I'll see what I can do about the clicks (it depends on the nature of the tick -- if it's on the 'edge' of a waveform rather than a 'discrete' click, it can't be isolated at all, it's mixed into the music).

Anyone with a subjective opinion on the two MP3's?

The last phono preamp thread (?)

Reply #3
Ya know... after listening again today, I can't decide which I like better... the "smoother" sound of the external preamp (with more bass) or the apparently better midrange of the preamp built into the turntable.

I think I'm gonna have to apply Occam's Razor... and stick with the built-in preamp.  Case closed, until I can get an external preamp that I know is reproducing frequencies accurately.

???

The last phono preamp thread (?)

Reply #4
Actually,  looking closer there isn't that much difference,  or a sharp rolloff.  I started looking in (freq) linear mode,  then log mode..  it's easy to think it's rolling off fast,  when it's more slowly rolling off around 18Khz..

Another thing..  the mp3 encoding is probably doing SOMETHING

Heh.. ask me if I know it's easy to get sucked into technical fiddling with something,  and not getting anything done..  If it's resonably good..  good..  keep doing the records.

Macdaddy and I will be your (and any later readers on the thread) guinea pigs for that Hagerman Bugle kit..

The last phono preamp thread (?)

Reply #5
GRRR... been a while since I punched the tab and sent something in the middle of editing.. 

Anyway..  was adding that the mp3 encoding,  even -alt preset extreme,  has to do SOMETHING to the near perfect impulse of a click..  so a non compressed file would be best.. 

I'd be interested in swapping click collections..  still haven't made any yet myself..

Also, I notice that most clicks do not seem the same,  left to right channel.  Either your setup is emphasizing left over right (possible cartridtge misalignment?)  or more likely, the left side of the groove was the more damaged in the few clicks I found in that sample..  Probably impossible to find an "equally scrached" click..

Though on some test records I've heard of,  they have a 1Khz  balanced tone,  that if you measure phase diff left to right,  you can tell if you have cart set up right that way..

The last phono preamp thread (?)

Reply #6
I think I prefer the Fisher sound. The Denon has a tiring lack of detail that reminds me of my old low-grade Grado ZC catridge.

The last phono preamp thread (?)

Reply #7
Quote
Originally posted by Pio2001
I think I prefer the Fisher sound. The Denon has a tiring lack of detail that reminds me of my old low-grade Grado ZC catridge.

I don't think a phono preamp will change the sense of detail much (?).  It's a low-end turntable (Denon DP26F), so don't expect miracles... a lot of cartridges cost more than this turntable does ($150).  Also, the records I play (including the sample) are about 30 years old, and purchased off Ebay (you can't expect a modern sound from early 70's mastering, I don't think).

What I hear in the Denon preamp is good midrange, but weak everything else (especially bass).  Unfortunately after listening to the Fisher again, I find a *lack of* detail in some music that I could hear loud & clear with the Denon preamp, which suggests weak midrange.  When I say lack of detail in this case, I mean weak presence of certain instruments.

What i really need is a good quality (proven) preamp, it would answer questions that otherwise have no answers.  Unfortunately, my bank acct. is not amenable to another major purchase right now...

The last phono preamp thread (?)

Reply #8
Update on this subject --

I'm now considering one of the following two:

(1) Terratec phono preamp:

http://www.terratec.net/products/preamp/preamp_overview.htm

(2) B-Tech BT-926:

http://www.btech-usa.com/bt926.htm

Any opinions?  Am also shopping for a used direct-drive turntable on Ebay, cuz the Denon DP26F is not gonna cut it... it won't even accept P-mount cartridges, and the built in cart. is crappy.

The last phono preamp thread (?)

Reply #9
Have seen the Terratec in ads,  and never heard of B-Tech.

As far as having a clue.. we would need to read comments by owners,  or reviews by somewhat discerning testers to get any idea how good/bad these are..

If they are designed to be in the >$100 range..  they are just about guarenteed to have "low cost" as design critera #1..

Remember,  if you are going to have a company,  and make things to sell..  you aim to  15-30% parts cost..  or you won't be making money enough to stay in buisness..

So, $100 sales price = about $20 cost in parts, labor, packaging..

The last phono preamp thread (?)

Reply #10
OK, I ended up winning a Music Hall MMF-1 phono preamp on Ebay (no longer sold, apparently -- I couldn't find any specs). 

If I don't like it I'm gonna turn around & sell it again, but it couldn't be any worse than a NAD PP-1 or similar device.  Anyone have any opinions or heard of this piece of gear?


The last phono preamp thread (?)

Reply #12
Quote
Originally posted by smg
Check out this fewtch Doesnt sound like what you have though
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/sh.pl?anlg...AAAmusic%20hall[/url]

Yes, it's the Music Hall MMF-1 turntable.  Here's what I bought:



Maybe they originally included a preamp with the turntable, or sold one that matches the turntable.  Anyway, the guy selling it was honest and said it sounded decent but not earth shattering.  At this point i'll probably settle for that.

 

The last phono preamp thread (?)

Reply #13
Quote
Originally posted by fewtch

Yes, it's the Music Hall MMF-1 turntable.  Here's what I bought:



Maybe they originally included a preamp with the turntable, or sold one that matches the turntable.  Anyway, the guy selling it was honest and said it sounded decent but not earth shattering.  At this point i'll probably settle for that.

You bought the pre-amp for the MM cartridge.  If you reciever is not set up for that type of cartridge you must preamp the signal from turntable to amp
What if the Hokey Pokey....is What it's all about?