Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

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Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

2018-11-19 23:07:58

I apologize in advance if my question is stupid. I do most of my tagging in EAC and Mp3tag, but for some reason fb2k i) only appears to recognize some of them and ii) uses alternate tag names. For example, a typical track of mine has the following tags, which are labeled as follows in Mp3Tag and fb2k:

Mp3Tag    fb2k
ALBUM ALBUM
ARTIST    ARTIST
COMMENT COMMENT
COMPOSER    COMPOSER
ENCODEDBY ENCODED BY (sic)
ENCODERSETTINGS ENCODER SETTINGS (sic)
GENRE    GENRE
INVOLVEDPEOPLE    <fb2k doesn't see this tag>
LENGTH    <fb2k doesn't see this tag>
PUBLISHER PUBLISHER
TITLE TITLE
TRACK TRACKNUMBER
YEAR    DATE (sic)

So, my questions:

1) Why doesn't fb2k see my INVOLVEDPEOPLE tag? (LENGTH too, although I don't care so much about that.)
2) How does it happen that MP3tag writes a YEAR tag, but fb2k calls it DATE? (And, correspondingly I think, why does fb2k have spaces in the tag names for 'ENCODED BY' and 'ENCODER SETTINGS'?

Thanks!

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #1 – 2018-11-20 14:30:54

Hi there,

I'm certainly no expert on the inner workings of tagging, just to say I might get stuff wrong...

How do you mean foobar does not see INVOLVEDPEOPLE? When you right-click a track > Properties, there is no such tag at the end?

The LENGTH one is maybe considered a tech info field in foobar which might override a tag(?) - not sure on the behaviour. Someone else might comment. (Why do you need a length tag?)

Media players use different friendly names for tags, while also having internal tag mapping for compatibility between programs. If you are writing ID3 tags (MP3), see this document - foobar ID3 Tag Mapping. ENCODED BY for example is the friendly name that goes to the TENC tag frame for ID3. For other tag types, see this document - Tag Mapping. These are I suppose the suggested "standards" to use.

You can change the friendly names that foobar uses for tags when you look at track Properties. Go File menu > Preferences > Advanced > Display > Properties dialog > Standard fields. Here for example you could change Date=DATE; to Year=DATE; and foobar would call it Year instead. You could also add Encoded By=ENCODED BY; so that field would always show up in Properties even when empty. (Fields show up in the order listed, you might have to scroll right to find some, might be easier to copy/paste to Notepad)

Now we see if someone corrects me

Cheers

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #2 – 2018-11-20 14:54:17

Thanks for your reply. That's right, INVOLVEDPEOPLE and LENGTH just aren't there on the properties list. (I understand the friendly names thing, so for now I deliberately removed those so fb2k would show me just the tags it recognizes, with the "unfriendly" names on display.)

Okay, your links were very helpful - I can condense and clarify my question now. Just as TENC is called 'ENCODEDBY' in MP3tag and 'ENCODED BY' in fb2k, I can see that what Mp3tag calls 'INVOLVEDPEOPLE' is the ID3V2.3 field 'IPLS' and I can see that (if that list is up-to-date) that fb2k does *not* handle this field "natively."

So, I think my question is this: Is there a way to get fb2k to recognize the IPLS tag so I can display it somewhere when using fb2k?

Just FYI, I looked back on some old notes of mine and determined that LENGTH is the name MP3tag uses for the field 'TLEN'. Apparently LAME writes this tag automatically (the duration of the track in milliseconds) to help some MP3 players display the correct duration on VBR files. I'm fine with fb2k not recognizing TLEN - I wasn't going to use it anyway.

Thanks again,

--Stu

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #3 – 2018-11-21 11:53:55

I'm not even sure why foobar would not be seeing IPLS / TIPL in the first place. I've never encountered foobar not showing an existing tag in properties.

What happens if you (hold shift key) right-click track with such tag > Tagging > Reload info from file(s). As foobar caches info, sometimes if you edit tags in other programs, might need to do this.

When you right-click track with such tag > Properties > Details tab, what does the Tag Type field say? (is MP3tag writing ID3v2.3 or v2.4?)

What happens if you right-click > Tagging > MP3 tag types..., and select the opposite one or the other. This will make foobar re-write the tags.

Not sure what else to suggest, sorry. Need a professional to weigh in

$:-\$

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #4 – 2018-11-21 20:57:57

Thanks again - this is very helpful. Nope, can't get it to see those tags no matter how hard I try.

I think the key is that fb2k is normally only going to read and show "native" fields from this list:

https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Foobar2000:ID3_Tag_Mapping

Footnote #1 there gave me a clue, though - if a "non-native" field is written to the TXXX frame, fb2k will pick that up. As it turns out, that is exactly how MP3tag writes custom fields, so that is probably what I'm going to have to do. It's a shame, but I don't see any other fb2k native fields that are logical choices for my purpose (a list of musicians and their instruments).

Interestingly, IPLS got superseded by TIPL and TMCL ("Musician Credits") in ID3v2.4. But these aren't native for fb2k either, and I would prefer to stick with ID3v2.3 anyway (that's what I have MP3tag writing).

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #5 – 2018-11-22 05:23:52

I got some of the way there. Not knowing much about tagging I assumed you could use INVOLVEDPEOPLE as the field name and it'd be translated to IPLS/TIPL according to the tag version being written, but I don't think it's always working that way, or maybe that's just wrong. I think there's also some syntax funkiness involved, but I confused myself a few times while testing (ID3v2.3 only).

If you use INVOLVEDPEOPLE as the field name when saving the tags with MP3Tag, fb2k will ignore it. IPLS works for me though. An INVOLVEDPEOPLE field created by fb2k displays in MP3Tag, so I'm not sure why it doesn't work the other way around. I suspect it's MP3Tag's fault as when I saved tags using an INVOLVEDPEOPLE field, MP3Tag insisted on adding :; to the value field and I couldn't seem to convince it not to. It didn't do that for an IPLS field.

TagBox displays the IPLS field created by MP3Tag but it seems to be a bit of a disaster for editing. After editing with TagBox and opening the mp3 with Mp3Tag, it'd often display more than one IPLS field with the data split between them, so fb2k's editing should probably be done via the Properties menu, unless I've missed something regarding the TagBox component.

There's definitely some funkiness to work around and I didn't want to spend too much time on it as it's not something I'd use (I just started out a bit curious), but to show I'm not making stuff up....

The IPLS field was created by Mp3Tag for this example and it's Extended Tags window is bottom/right. I used the syntax specified in Mp3Tag's help file.

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #6 – 2018-11-22 11:17:01

^ Thanks for the extra info @yetanotherid - interesting. (By the way, you can attach screenshots to your post on these forums. Just drag to area below reply box)

It seems IPLS has long been problematic. Here is a post from 2011 highlighting the same issues with writing the tag.

I also notice in the Tag Mapping document I linked, PERFORMER supposedly maps to IPLS / TMCL (though that document is NOT foobar specific). Otherwise, I'd just use a custom TXXX frame and forget wasting time on this.

Cheers

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #7 – 2018-11-22 12:28:09

Quote from: yetanotherid on 2018-11-22 05:23:52

If you use INVOLVEDPEOPLE as the field name when saving the tags with MP3Tag, fb2k will ignore it. IPLS works for me though.

Thanks for your observations - glad to know I wasn't the only one grappling with this issue. I think IPLS works for you there only because it's not a standard MP3tag name, so MP3tag is saving it to the TXXX frame, which fb2k then reads. So I think you can use any name you want so long as it's not an MP3tag name. I decided to go with TMCL but it really doesn't matter.

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #8 – 2018-11-22 17:26:14

Regarding IPLS not being a standard tag name.... it seems to me it should be. Partly because MP3Tag's list of extended fields... the list under the drop down menus when you're customising columns.... it includes both INVOLVEDPEOPLE and IPLS.
If INVOLVEDPEOPLE remaps to IPLS for ID3v2.3 (and TIPL for ID3v2.4) wouldn't that mean you have a legitimate field name remapping to two non-legitimate field names? That doesn't quite make sense to me. If they're not legit, why do IPLS & TIPL exist at all? Wouldn't it make more sense to simply use the legit INVOLVEDPEOPLE field? Maybe there's tag workings I simply don't understand.....

I think the problem is just a bug of some sort and one of the programs isn't handling those fields correctly. I'm just not sure if it's Mp3Tag or fb2k.

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #9 – 2018-11-23 14:51:22

In ID3v2.3, IPLS is definitely a standard frame and MP3tag uses the name INVOLVEDPEOPLE to map to it.

Unfortunately foobar2000 does not recognize IPLS (it's "non-native" to foobar2000) - hence my original problem.

Fortunately both programs handle non-native tags with the TXXX frame, so that seems like the best way to accommodate a "musician credits" tag that both programs will see.

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #10 – 2018-11-23 15:02:19

Quote from: stualden on 2018-11-23 14:51:22

In ID3v2.3, IPLS is definitely a standard frame and MP3tag uses the name INVOLVEDPEOPLE to map to it.

Unfortunately foobar2000 does not recognize IPLS (it's "non-native" to foobar2000) - hence my original problem.

Fortunately both programs handle non-native tags with the TXXX frame, so that seems like the best way to accommodate a "musician credits" tag that both programs will see.

That's not what seems to be happening for me. The IPLS field is definitely recognised by fb2k. See my screenshot attached to reply #5. Have you tried creating an IPLS field with fb2k itself, because it if you do it'll save and display it, so it seems logical it must therefore recognise it.

I'm not even sure about it not being able to recognise non-native fields. For me it's happily creating fields with whatever name I choose and displaying them. I don't know how they're saved but mp3tag and MusicBrainz Picard both see them the same way fb2k does (I just checked).

As an experiment, I downloaded MusicBrainz Picard too see what it did with the INVOLVEDPEOPLE field.

When it's created by MusicBrainz Picard, it shows up as expected in both mp3tag and fb2k.
When it's created by fb2k, it shows up as expected in both MusicBrainz Picard and mp3tag.
When it's created by mp3tag, for MusicBrainz Picard the field value (Role1:Person1;Role2:Person3;) displayed as two Performer (Role) fields. Fb2k doesn't display them.

TagBox probably isn't doing anything wrong as I'd originally assumed. When TagBox is used to create INVOLVEDPEOPLE or IPLS fields they both display correctly in MusicBrainz Picard.

I think maybe mp3tag is getting the remapping wrong internally. When I create an mp3tag ID3v2 mapping with INVOLVEDPEOPLE as the source and IPLS as the target, the result is exactly the same as above when mp3tag creates an INVOLVEDPEOPLE field, although after it's saved mp3tag displays it as IPLS under Extended Tags. Creating an IPLS also produces the same result, even though I'm sure it worked without the mapping.

The closest thing to a fix is to create an ID3v2 mapping with IPLS as the source and INVOLVEDPEOPLE as the target. That way, creating an INVOLVEDPEOPLE field displaya as an IPLS field for both MusicBrainz Picard and fb2k, even though it displays as INVOLVEDPEOPLE for mp3tag after it's saved.
There's a minor side effect when creating an IPLS field though. It still display as IPLS for fb2k and MusicBrainz Picard as it did before, but mp3tag displays it as INVOLVEDPEOPLE instead.

As the Performer field mapping was mention earlier I gave that a quick test.
When created by fb2k it displays as Performer for the other two programs.
Created by mp3tag it displays as Performer for the other two programs.
Edit: I originally said the Performer field wasn't displaying correctly for the other two programs when created by MusicBrainz Picard, but I appear to have been wrong. I think I made a mistake when creating the field name.

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #11 – 2018-11-23 16:45:20

Ahhh... &%@$ !!!. I think I heard a penny drop.....

In it's drop down list of fields , MusicBrainz Picard has one named "performer:", including the colon. I thought at first I must have typed it like that myself and it was automatically added to the list. I'm still not sure, but when I use it as-is, fb2k ignores it and mp3tag displays it as an INVOLVEDPEOPLE field, and if the saved field value happened to be "ABC", it'd be displayed by mp3tag as ";ABC;".

When I remove the colon and save a Performer field with MusicBrainz Picard, it then displays correctly for both mp3tag and fb2k.

That made me think about what I'd mentioned in my earlier post... when I saved an INVOLVEDPEOPLE field with mp3tag it seemed keen to append ":;" to the field value as it's saved. That's how mp3tag displays it, at least.

From there I remembered the TagBox problem I was having originally. When saving an INVOLVEDPEOPLE field with TagBox, if I use the following for the value,
Role1:Person1;Role2:Person2;
TagBox takes it upon itself to remove the semi-colon at the end while updating the tag.
MusicBrainz Picard then sees it as an IPLS field (I noticed that originally, but must have forgotten). However mp3tag seems to get more confused.

And finally.... The screenshot in my previous post shows what happened after saving an INVOLVEDPEOPLE field with mp3tag and then looking at it with MusicBrainz Picard. It's displayed as two Performer (Role) fields, but when I try to edit them with MusicBrainz Picard, this is how those fields display in the drop down list:

performer:Role1
performer:Role2

I believe in co-incidence. It happens all the time, but this isn't that.
Four examples of a program either not saving or displaying the field as expected, and each time there's colons and/or semi colons involved, and given the official INVOLVEDPEOPLE syntax is chock full of colon and semi-colon goodness....

Role1:Person1;Role2:Person2;Role3:Person3;

Possible remapping issues aside, when a program doesn't save the INVOLVEDPEOPLE field correctly and semi-colons and colons are being abused in the processes, rather than displaying invalid field names and/or values as the other programs do, I think the reason they don't appear in fb2k is because is displaying it's cleverness instead and ignoring the crap.

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #12 – 2018-11-24 05:54:02

I think I need to offer a retraction. It could be that mp3tag is the one getting it right and it could be that foobar2000 doesn't display non-native fields.
I'm not sure why I've kept going with this.... Not knowing was bugging me once I started, I guess.

According to MediaInfo, fb2k writes INVOLVEDPEOPLE as a TXXX frame.

Code: [Select]

00000A  TXXX - User defined text information frame (103 bytes)
00000A   Header (10 bytes)
00000A    Frame ID:                            TXXX
00000E    Size:                                93 (0x0000005D)
000012    Flags:                               0 (0x0000)
000014    Tag alter preservation:              0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    File alter preservation:             0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Read only:                           0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Compression:                         0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Encryption:                          0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Grouping identity:                   0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014   Text_encoding:                        1 (0x01)
000015   Short_content_descrip:                INVOLVEDPEOPLE
000033   Null:                                 0 (0x0000)
000035   The_actual_text:                      Role1:Person1;Role2:Person2;
000071  Padding (2048 bytes)
000071   Data:                                 (2048 bytes)

MusicBrainz Picard does the same, although it seems to create an (empty?) IPLS too.

Code: [Select]

000063  IPLS - Involved people list (11 bytes)
000063   Header (10 bytes)
000063    Frame ID:                            IPLS
000067    Size:                                1 (0x00000001)
00006B    Flags:                               0 (0x0000)
00006D    Tag alter preservation:              0 (0x0000000000000000)
00006D    File alter preservation:             0 (0x0000000000000000)
00006D    Read only:                           0 (0x0000000000000000)
00006D    Compression:                         0 (0x0000000000000000)
00006D    Encryption:                          0 (0x0000000000000000)
00006D    Grouping identity:                   0 (0x0000000000000000)
00006D   Data:                                 (1 bytes)
00006E  TXXX - User defined text information frame (103 bytes)
00006E   Header (10 bytes)
00006E    Frame ID:                            TXXX
000072    Size:                                93 (0x0000005D)
000076    Flags:                               0 (0x0000)
000078    Tag alter preservation:              0 (0x0000000000000000)
000078    File alter preservation:             0 (0x0000000000000000)
000078    Read only:                           0 (0x0000000000000000)
000078    Compression:                         0 (0x0000000000000000)
000078    Encryption:                          0 (0x0000000000000000)
000078    Grouping identity:                   0 (0x0000000000000000)
000078   Text_encoding:                        1 (0x01)
000079   Short_content_descrip:                INVOLVEDPEOPLE
000097   Null:                                 0 (0x0000)
000099   The_actual_text:                      Role1:Person1;Role2:Person2;
0000D5  Padding (6804 bytes)
0000D5   Data:                                 (6804 bytes)

Mp3tag does create an IPLS frame (when saving INVOLVEDPEOPLE) but MediaInfo doesn't tell me what it contains. I don't know if that's normal.

Code: [Select]

00000A  IPLS - Involved people list (39 bytes)
00000A   Header (10 bytes)
00000A    Frame ID:                            IPLS
00000E    Size:                                29 (0x0000001D)
000012    Flags:                               0 (0x0000)
000014    Tag alter preservation:              0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    File alter preservation:             0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Read only:                           0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Compression:                         0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Encryption:                          0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Grouping identity:                   0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014   Data:                                 (29 bytes)
000031  Padding (2048 bytes)
000031   Data:                                 (2048 bytes)

When I create a mapping for mp3tag to map IPLS to INVOLVEDPEOPLE, a field saved as INVOLVEDPEOPLE also becomes TXXX. That explains why fb2k sees it.

mp3tag tag saves IPLS as TXXX (without the previous mapping). fb2k and MusicBrainz Picard save IPLS the same way.

The problem when saving a tag with TagBox wasn't the removal of the semi-colon from the field value as I thought. On closer inspection it's also inserting a space when saving. That's seen as two TXXX frames by MusicBrainz Picard, mp3tag and MediaInfo. Only fb2k displays it as a single IPLS frame.

Code: [Select]

00000A  TXXX - User defined text information frame (53 bytes)
00000A   Header (10 bytes)
00000A    Frame ID:                            TXXX
00000E    Size:                                43 (0x0000002B)
000012    Flags:                               0 (0x0000)
000014    Tag alter preservation:              0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    File alter preservation:             0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Read only:                           0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Compression:                         0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Encryption:                          0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Grouping identity:                   0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014   Text_encoding:                        1 (0x01)
000015   Short_content_descrip:                IPLS
00001F   Null:                                 0 (0x0000)
000021   The_actual_text:                      Role1:Person1
00003F  TXXX - User defined text information frame (53 bytes)
00003F   Header (10 bytes)
00003F    Frame ID:                            TXXX
000043    Size:                                43 (0x0000002B)
000047    Flags:                               0 (0x0000)
000049    Tag alter preservation:              0 (0x0000000000000000)
000049    File alter preservation:             0 (0x0000000000000000)
000049    Read only:                           0 (0x0000000000000000)
000049    Compression:                         0 (0x0000000000000000)
000049    Encryption:                          0 (0x0000000000000000)
000049    Grouping identity:                   0 (0x0000000000000000)
000049   Text_encoding:                        1 (0x01)
00004A   Short_content_descrip:                IPLS
000054   Null:                                 0 (0x0000)
000056   The_actual_text:                      Role2:Person2
000074  Padding (2048 bytes)
000074   Data:                                 (2048 bytes)

So it looks I was wrong about much of it. Chances are, mp3tag is remapping INVOLVEDPEOPLE to IPLS correctly and fb2k won't display it, MusicBrainz Picard displays it incorrectly, and MediaInfo won't tell me what it contains for some reason.

I hadn't noticed before, but when the only frame save to an ID3v2 tag is IPLS, courtesy of mp3tag, fb2k doesn't see the MP3 as having a tag at all. I hadn't noticed before because I was testing with mp3s that already had tags. It would have been a hint that fb2k was ignoring IPLS, otherwise.

As a side note, if you tell fb2k to optimise such an mp3, it removes the padding while apparently ignoring everything else.

Before:

Code: [Select]

00000A  IPLS - Involved people list (77 bytes)
00000A   Header (10 bytes)
00000A    Frame ID:                            IPLS
00000E    Size:                                67 (0x00000043)
000012    Flags:                               0 (0x0000)
000014    Tag alter preservation:              0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    File alter preservation:             0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Read only:                           0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Compression:                         0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Encryption:                          0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Grouping identity:                   0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014   Data:                                 (67 bytes)
000057  Padding (2048 bytes)
000057   Data:                                 (2048 bytes)

After:

Code: [Select]

00000A  IPLS - Involved people list (77 bytes)
00000A   Header (10 bytes)
00000A    Frame ID:                            IPLS
00000E    Size:                                67 (0x00000043)
000012    Flags:                               0 (0x0000)
000014    Tag alter preservation:              0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    File alter preservation:             0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Read only:                           0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Compression:                         0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Encryption:                          0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014    Grouping identity:                   0 (0x0000000000000000)
000014   Data:                                 (67 bytes)

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #13 – 2018-11-24 14:47:35

Quote from: yetanotherid on 2018-11-24 05:54:02

I'm not sure why I've kept going with this.... Not knowing was bugging me once I started, I guess.

Hey, I know the feeling. Hopefully you can rest your brain now, give it some chocolate or something.

Quote

Chances are, mp3tag is remapping INVOLVEDPEOPLE to IPLS correctly and fb2k won't display it, MusicBrainz Picard displays it incorrectly, and MediaInfo won't tell me what it contains for some reason.

That last part, which could still be the bug in MP3tag from at least 2011.

I wonder does foobar pick up TMCL (ID3v2.4) field? In not, perhaps this thread could serve as a feature request to add mapping for IPLS / TIPL and TMCL to PERFORMER, and/or INVOLVED PEOPLE and MUSICIAN CREDITS.

Cheers

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #14 – 2018-11-25 12:04:58

Definitely a reasonable enhancement request for fb2k - where does one make those? For certain types of music, a list of personnel is essential.

yetanotherid, thanks for all the research! How do you get mediainfo to show you the tag details? I installed version 18.08.1 and I'm only seeing very high-level info.

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #15 – 2018-11-25 12:44:13

Quote from: stualden on 2018-11-25 12:04:58

Definitely a reasonable enhancement request for fb2k - where does one make those? For certain types of music, a list of personnel is essential.

Maybe you could add to the thread here.
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,116740.0.html
I only just discovered it. The OP obviously knows a fair bit about tags, although thanks to this thread prompting me to understand more, I'm catching up a little bit.

Quote from: stualden on 2018-11-25 12:04:58

yetanotherid, thanks for all the research! How do you get mediainfo to show you the tag details? I installed version 18.08.1 and I'm only seeing very high-level info.

I don't know why it didn't occur to me to use MediaInfo earlier. Anyway, open MediaInfo, or open a file with it. Under Debug on the top menu bar, select a Details level greater than zero. I'm not sure what the differences between them are. Might as well just go straight to "Details 10". The GUI doesn't automatically refresh if you have a file open. You need to use the File/Open menu to open a file or re-open the current one.

I don't think there's a way to force MediaInfo to open that way by default, so that's how I get there.

PS. If you happen to have disabled the top menu bar in Preferences, you might have to enable it again. I don't think there's any other way to get to the Debug menu.

Re: Tags - fb2k versus MP3Tag

Reply #16 – 2018-11-26 05:41:13

Quote from: stualden on 2018-11-25 12:04:58

Definitely a reasonable enhancement request for fb2k - where does one make those?

Oh, I meant, I think the devs read all these threads already. Case has said as much on occasion. (We could "at" Peter so he gets a notification but I feel like that would get annoying pretty quick, and maybe against forum etiquette to bug developers?

)