I hope this is the right forum and that this topic hasn't been beaten to death. I apologize if I'm wrong on either of these. I searched but didn't find the answer I was looking for. Of course, the amount of info here is a bit overwhelming
I used dbpoweramp to rip to FLAC, then generate 320kbit CBR MP3s. ITunes plays them gaplessly as does foobar2000. However, my iPod (5th generation) does not. There's a teeny "gap" (more like a glitch). My iPhone 3G doesn't play them gaplessly either although the "gap" is more like a click. Meanwhile, MP3s generated by iTunes play on the iPod perfectly.
I know, years ago, there was a lot of noise about apple not supporting gapless. But, I thought this was all resolved. Certainly, it appears to work fine if the MP3s are encoded with iTunes.
Is this a well-known problem? I found some other posts that seemed to say that LAME encoded MP3s (which is what dbpoweramp uses) play gaplessly on iPods. So, I'm puzzled as to while I'm having this trouble. I'd appreciate any help or suggestions.
I have thousands of Lame mp3 files on my 120GB iPod and they playback gaplessly (they work fine on my 5G 60GB iPod too). Have you modified these mp3 files with another application? Did iTunes scan the files for gapless playback when you added them to your library?
I have thousands of Lame mp3 files on my 120GB iPod and they playback gaplessly (they work fine on my 5G 60GB iPod too). Have you modified these mp3 files with another application? Did iTunes scan the files for gapless playback when you added them to your library?
I didn't modify them at all; they're straight from dbpoweramp. I didn't pay close attention to iTunes when I added them but I don't remember seeing any messages indicating scanning for gapless. I can remove them and re-add them to check. Is there a way to disable this function just in case?
Is it possible that some LAME settings used by dbpoweramp aren't proper to allow gapless?
Also, if you wouldn't mind, could you listen again to some music that needs to be played gaplessly and make sure it sounds right? A co-worker of mine also told me that his music played gaplessly on his iPod but when he listened again, he heard the same thing I'm hearing. It's very subtle so it's easy to miss unless you're listening closely with headphones. In case it helps, his test case was the second side of Abbey Road and mind is Dark Side of the Moon.
its the 'force iso compatibility' option.
right click some file, choose batch converter, click convert, convert to mp3 (lame), click advance, uncheck force iso compatibility.
any files you converted you will probably want to reconvert.
its the 'force iso compatibility' option.
right click some file, choose batch converter, click convert, convert to mp3 (lame), click advance, uncheck force iso compatibility.
any files you converted you will probably want to reconvert.
Interesting. I will give this a try tonight and report back. Thanks!
I didn't modify them at all; they're straight from dbpoweramp. I didn't pay close attention to iTunes when I added them but I don't remember seeing any messages indicating scanning for gapless. I can remove them and re-add them to check. Is there a way to disable this function just in case?
Yes, you can try removing them from your library and adding them back in. You will see the "Determining gapless playback..." message at the top of iTunes where you normally see the Apple logo. You can click out of this option and some people do it as they don't want iTunes to scan their files. The process takes (about) less than one second per track so you might see it flash for a few seconds when adding an album. You can add multiple albums to iTunes just to make sure iTunes scans them.
Is it possible that some LAME settings used by dbpoweramp aren't proper to allow gapless?
Other than what is mentioned, not that I know of. Most of the Lame files I have (either Lame 3.97 or Lame 3.98.2) were made with dBpowerAMP so I don't think that is an issue. Just for kicks and giggles, I went back and encoded Dark Side Of The Moon with dBpowerAMP and Lame 3.98.2 at -V 2 (from my source Apple lossless files). It played back alright in iTunes, on my 120GB iPod classic, and my 5G 60GB iPod. I then tried Tool's 10,000 Days and received the same results.
What version of Lame is dBpowerAMP using and what version of dBpowerAMP are you using?
Are you using a paid for version of dbPowerAmp or the free version? The free version uses BLADE, which is a very old mp3 encoder that does not support gapless playback.
Also, how are you testing the gapless playback on the iPod? Are you fast-forwarding through the song or pausing it in the middle? If so, this will cause gaps. You have to let the song play through from beginning to end into the next song *without interruption* for transition between tracks to be gapless. This problem was disovered back in 2007 when Apple first introduced gapless playback on the iPod. On my 80GB iPod, they've never fixed this problem.
>dbPowerAmp or the free version? The free version uses BLADE
No it does not...
>its the 'force iso compatibility' option
If this had been checked for some reason it would stop the lame header being written.
>dbPowerAmp or the free version? The free version uses BLADE
No it does not...
>its the 'force iso compatibility' option
If this had been checked for some reason it would stop the lame header being written.
I just checked and the "force iso compatibility" option is not checked. Also, I've looked at the metadata with foobar2000 and the gapless stuff is there. I'm still stumped.
I didn't modify them at all; they're straight from dbpoweramp. I didn't pay close attention to iTunes when I added them but I don't remember seeing any messages indicating scanning for gapless. I can remove them and re-add them to check. Is there a way to disable this function just in case?
Yes, you can try removing them from your library and adding them back in. You will see the "Determining gapless playback..." message at the top of iTunes where you normally see the Apple logo. You can click out of this option and some people do it as they don't want iTunes to scan their files. The process takes (about) less than one second per track so you might see it flash for a few seconds when adding an album. You can add multiple albums to iTunes just to make sure iTunes scans them.
Is it possible that some LAME settings used by dbpoweramp aren't proper to allow gapless?
Other than what is mentioned, not that I know of. Most of the Lame files I have (either Lame 3.97 or Lame 3.98.2) were made with dBpowerAMP so I don't think that is an issue. Just for kicks and giggles, I went back and encoded Dark Side Of The Moon with dBpowerAMP and Lame 3.98.2 at -V 2 (from my source Apple lossless files). It played back alright in iTunes, on my 120GB iPod classic, and my 5G 60GB iPod. I then tried Tool's 10,000 Days and received the same results.
What version of Lame is dBpowerAMP using and what version of dBpowerAMP are you using?
OK, I removed and re-added the files. There was no gapless scanning; only something about "detmining song volume".
As for the versions, I'm using the free dbpoweramp (it's actually still the professional version until the trial period ends). It's release 13.3. The LAME it's using is 3.98.2.
Are you using a paid for version of dbPowerAmp or the free version? The free version uses BLADE, which is a very old mp3 encoder that does not support gapless playback.
Also, how are you testing the gapless playback on the iPod? Are you fast-forwarding through the song or pausing it in the middle? If so, this will cause gaps. You have to let the song play through from beginning to end into the next song *without interruption* for transition between tracks to be gapless. This problem was disovered back in 2007 when Apple first introduced gapless playback on the iPod. On my 80GB iPod, they've never fixed this problem.
As I replied to another poster, I'm using the trial version (professional for another 19 days). It's definitely using LAME though.
As for your other question, I have been scanning to the end of the track. I wondered about this. When I used MAX to rip and encode, the gapless playback was intermittent and I wondered if this behavior had to do with scanning forward. Maybe I'll try max again and not scan forward. However, the mp3s I have right now still have this funny little click even if I let the whole track play. I'm now wondering if my issue is not a gapless issue, but something else.
Do you have replaygain turned on (or SOUNDCHECK in an ipod). IF you do, you'll notice the transition from on track to another if using track gain (which is all SOUNDCHECK does). This is because each track has its own volume adjustment. This may not be your problem (this shouldn't cause a click). But I can definitely tell the transition when the volume slightly changes. Of course album gain (or turning off soundcheck) would solve this issue.
Do you have replaygain turned on (or SOUNDCHECK in an ipod). IF you do, you'll notice the transition from on track to another if using track gain (which is all SOUNDCHECK does). This is because each track has its own volume adjustment. This may not be your problem (this shouldn't cause a click). But I can definitely tell the transition when the volume slightly changes. Of course album gain (or turning off soundcheck) would solve this issue.
Good guess, but soundcheck is off.
Would you be willing to upload a 30 second sample so that we can determine if this is truly an issue or if it normal behavior? Use a male 3.5mm to male 3.5mm cable and hook it up to your iPod's headphone output. Then plug that into your computer's line-in (or microphone) input. Play a couple of songs (without skipping) and record 30 seconds of audio (the transition between the two songs) in a lossless format (you can record in PCM WAV and then upload in FLAC) and upload it here.
Would you be willing to upload a 30 second sample so that we can determine if this is truly an issue or if it normal behavior? Use a male 3.5mm to male 3.5mm cable and hook it up to your iPod's headphone output. Then plug that into your computer's line-in (or microphone) input. Play a couple of songs (without skipping) and record 30 seconds of audio (the transition between the two songs) in a lossless format (you can record in PCM WAV and then upload in FLAC) and upload it here.
Well, what's happening is clearly not normal. It doesn't happen if the MP3s are generated with iTunes so I know it's possible to have these play correctly. I honestly don't see what could be determined by listening to the playback.
We could determine if the gap is really an issue or if you are being overly picky. Don't take that negatively. I have seen many people post about iPods not being truly gapless when they can hear a faint click and/or if the music pauses for a millisecond. I then listened to a sample and it turned out that the performance was completely normal.
Another option I haven't thought of (I don't know why) is that you should restore your iPod and then sync the content back on it. This will erase absolutely everything on the iPod putting it back to factory standards. Restoring iPods often fixes their problems and it helps to eliminate sources of problems.
We could determine if the gap is really an issue or if you are being overly picky. Don't take that negatively. I have seen many people post about iPods not being truly gapless when they can hear a faint click and/or if the music pauses for a millisecond. I then listened to a sample and it turned out that the performance was completely normal.
Another option I haven't thought of (I don't know why) is that you should restore your iPod and then sync the content back on it. This will erase absolutely everything on the iPod putting it back to factory standards. Restoring iPods often fixes their problems and it helps to eliminate sources of problems.
Finding out if others think I'm being too picky isn't really what I'm looking for. If I had to live with this, could I? Clearly I could. However, as I've stated before, this same CD ripped with iTunes is perfect. No click, no pop, no gap. Absolutely perfect. I would like to try to figure out why using LAME doesn't produce the same results.
I could try to restore iPod that you suggest. At this point, I have no other ideas.
Well, figuring out if you were being too picky would mean that there isn't anything technically wrong with your iPod. As I said, this helped with someone else. The device may not be performing as you like but at least we could determine if it was operating normally.
Try restoring it first, re-syncing the content, and then listening to it again (don't fast forward through the songs). The issue isn't with Lame. I and many others can attest to this. I even have Lame 3.90.3 files that playback gaplessly.
We could determine if the gap is really an issue or if you are being overly picky. Don't take that negatively. I have seen many people post about iPods not being truly gapless when they can hear a faint click and/or if the music pauses for a millisecond. I then listened to a sample and it turned out that the performance was completely normal.
I don't have an iPod, but are you saying that gapless = not quite gapless?!
FWIW "gapless" mp3s (lame, or otherwise) aren't necessarily "glitchless" unless you use pcutmp3 to do the job properly - which gives
true gapless and glitchless playback on software that reads the lame header properly (e.g. fb2k). It may not help with an iPod (unless RockBoxed) - it might even confuse it. I don't know!
(You can also make truly gapless+glitchless mp3s using the depreciated lame "nogap" switch - but this isn't recommended, and I don't know how that'll interract with an iPod either).
Cheers,
David.
can't help here but just to note that I have 1000s of mp3 files encoded with various version of LAME and they play gapless perfectly on my IPOD. Many of these were encoded with dbpoweramp, but really, LAME is LAME, so the dbpa part is not that relevant I suspect. For the last few years, ITUNES does a gapless analysis on songs added to library. It "guesses" in some cases, but with a LAME header, it uses the LAME info as expected. I use a 160GB IPOD that's about 2 years old (can't recall the "name" of this particular IPOD (classic, etc.), but it works as expected.
Try this by the way: go to ARCHIVE.ORG, go to the live music section, and download a show or two from there (all live concerts, with permission of artists). The mp3 VBR versions of these files are recent LAME. Add these to itunes library and do some more testing for gapless. It is certainly easy to identify glitches on these live shows. And again, these play gapless on my IPOD and IPHONE.
I don't have an iPod, but are you saying that gapless = not quite gapless?!
Not at all. However, there are some instances when the transition from one song to the next is not smooth. I have heard this on my iPod a couple of times with Nero AAC files. There is a slight (less than one second) pause or click that can be heard when going from one song to another. So iPods are gapless but there are some instances where it might not be perfect (as with any technology). With the other person that I helped, we were able to download the sample and put it in an application. The little click/gap was actually around 0.3 seconds long. It wasn't anything to get all up in arms over.
So all I am saying is that gapless playback may have some instances (in my experience, these are few and far between if I even notice them at all) where it isn't truly gapless. It would be nice to determine if the OP is experiencing behavior like this or if there is an actual problem.
On one of the tracks which has problems:
Re-Rip to mp3 (all in dBpoweramp)
Rip to Wave
Convert (again with dBpoweramp) that mp3 track to wave (so you have 2 wave files - original CD wave and decoded mp3 >> wave), next load them into your favourite audio editor (audacity if you have none) and compare the start and end of the track, as dBpoweramp would decode the mp3 file gapless, there should be no major distinctions in the wave form (taking into account one is mp3).
Little off topic but I can't let kornchild2002's comments be the only words Nero employees see: the gapless bugs Nero AAC encoder has are the reason I switched back to LAME. I don't want to ruin my playback by having sudden glitches just because track happens to change. It is way worse than any encoding artifact produced since the days of Blade or VQF.
Well, figuring out if you were being too picky would mean that there isn't anything technically wrong with your iPod. As I said, this helped with someone else. The device may not be performing as you like but at least we could determine if it was operating normally.
Try restoring it first, re-syncing the content, and then listening to it again (don't fast forward through the songs). The issue isn't with Lame. I and many others can attest to this. I even have Lame 3.90.3 files that playback gaplessly.
A question for you and others:
When you say your files play gaplessly, are you saying that the transition between tracks is perfect and flawless? If it isn't, then this is what I'm encountering. If it is, then this is what I'm trying to achieve.
Anyways, I performed the following experiments with the indicated results (some I have done before but I repeated them to confirm):
1. Restore iPod
No improvement in playback
2. Rip and MP3 encode with iTunes
Perfect playback. It's impossible to tell where one track ends and the next begins just by listening. In my opinion, this is the way it should be. There's no good reason, again in my opinion, to settle for anything less.
3. Rip and MP3 encode with MAX
Glitch between tracks
4. Rip to ALAC and MP3 encode with MAX
Glitch between tracks
5. Rip to ALAC and MP3 encode with dbpoweramp
Glitch between tracks
6. Rip to FLAC and MP3 encode with dbpoweramp
Glitch between tracks
In all cases, the MP3s played flawlessly in iTunes but, in the cases indicated, weren't quite right when played with the iPod.
I haven't yet tried the WAV comparison suggestion by someone else, but I will.
Conclusions based on my observations:
-The LAME encoding is working fine and is putting the right data into the file to enable proper gapless playback. I believe this because foobar2000 plays the files perfectly
-iTunes properly interprets the header data and plays the files perfectly
-My iPod either does not properly use the header data or has some other issue with LAME encoded MP3s that prevents them from being played gaplessly
-The iTunes MP3 encoder does something different than LAME in order to allow the iPod to play the files perfectly
At this point, I'm wondering if the issue is not strictly related to gapless, but to some other characteristic of the LAME files.
A question for you and others:
When you say your files play gaplessly, are you saying that the transition between tracks is perfect and flawless? If it isn't, then this is what I'm encountering. If it is, then this is what I'm trying to achieve.
In my case, my LAME mp3 files have a "perfect and flawless" (your words) transition between tracks 99.9% of the time. And I've actually tried hard to detect a glitch in transition, with headphones, etc. I will say that once in a while, I'll get a glitch when transitioning, usually a function of transitioning between a 30 minute song (e.g., grateful dead, dark star) and the following song. But I can go back and play song again and with the same exact songs, the transition is perfect. Then again, once in a while, I get a glitch in the middle of a song. These I chalk up to the ipod reloading its cache or something odd. It is a computer after all and is reading data from a harddrive.
A question for you and others:
When you say your files play gaplessly, are you saying that the transition between tracks is perfect and flawless? If it isn't, then this is what I'm encountering. If it is, then this is what I'm trying to achieve.
In my case, my LAME mp3 files have a "perfect and flawless" (your words) transition between tracks 99.9% of the time. And I've actually tried hard to detect a glitch in transition, with headphones, etc. I will say that once in a while, I'll get a glitch when transitioning, usually a function of transitioning between a 30 minute song (e.g., grateful dead, dark star) and the following song. But I can go back and play song again and with the same exact songs, the transition is perfect. Then again, once in a while, I get a glitch in the middle of a song. These I chalk up to the ipod reloading its cache or something odd. It is a computer after all and is reading data from a harddrive.
Thanks for this. The behavior I'm seeing is repeatable every time there's a transition between tracks. Very strange...
I recall that you said you are creating "320kbit CBR MP3s" with dbpa. I highly doubt this matters, but in my case all my LAME mp3 files are VBR of some sort (mostly -V2, but some are -V1 or even -V0). Again, probably not an issue, but just for grins, rip (or create from FLAC/WAV) some LAME mp3 files with VBR rather than CBR and check for the transition glitches you're hearing.
On one of the tracks which has problems:
Re-Rip to mp3 (all in dBpoweramp)
Rip to Wave
Convert (again with dBpoweramp) that mp3 track to wave (so you have 2 wave files - original CD wave and decoded mp3 >> wave), next load them into your favourite audio editor (audacity if you have none) and compare the start and end of the track, as dBpoweramp would decode the mp3 file gapless, there should be no major distinctions in the wave form (taking into account one is mp3).
OK, I did this experiment. I created the two wavs as you suggested and opened them with garageband. Both waveforms look pretty much identical to me; they end exactly the same way. As a sanity check, I synced the wavs created from the MP3s to my iPod and they played perfectly. This is further evidence that the gapless info in the MP3s is right but that the iPod is not doing the right thing with the MP3s. Not only does foobar2000 behave but dbpoweramp interprets the info properly as well.
If others are not having this problem, there must be some difference between the MP3s I'm creating and the ones others are. Or, I suppose there could be something special about my iPod. As I said in my other response, perhaps this has nothing to do with gapless support (e.g. the metadata that deals with the MP3 encoder artifacts). I'm creating 320Kbps CBR files using the "high quality" encoding option in dbpoweramp. If you're having "flawless" track transitions, could you tell me what encoder settings you're using?
So, would it be a violation of copyright laws for me to send someone a couple of MP3s to try on their iPod? If not, I'd like to see what happens.
If the tracks are protected by copyright, then yes, of course.
You can take a 30 second clip and split it up into two pieces if you like, however.
On one of the tracks which has problems:
Re-Rip to mp3 (all in dBpoweramp)
Rip to Wave
Convert (again with dBpoweramp) that mp3 track to wave (so you have 2 wave files - original CD wave and decoded mp3 >> wave), next load them into your favourite audio editor (audacity if you have none) and compare the start and end of the track, as dBpoweramp would decode the mp3 file gapless, there should be no major distinctions in the wave form (taking into account one is mp3).
OK, I did this experiment. I created the two wavs as you suggested and opened them with garageband. Both waveforms look pretty much identical to me; they end exactly the same way. As a sanity check, I synced the wavs created from the MP3s to my iPod and they played perfectly. This is further evidence that the gapless info in the MP3s is right but that the iPod is not doing the right thing with the MP3s. Not only does foobar2000 behave but dbpoweramp interprets the info properly as well.
If others are not having this problem, there must be some difference between the MP3s I'm creating and the ones others are. Or, I suppose there could be something special about my iPod. As I said in my other response, perhaps this has nothing to do with gapless support (e.g. the metadata that deals with the MP3 encoder artifacts). I'm creating 320Kbps CBR files using the "high quality" encoding option in dbpoweramp. If you're having "flawless" track transitions, could you tell me what encoder settings you're using?
So, would it be a violation of copyright laws for me to send someone a couple of MP3s to try on their iPod? If not, I'd like to see what happens.
For what it's worth, I played some of the MP3s on my kid's 3 year old nano and there is still an ever so slight click between tracks. It's not as noticeable as on my 80G iPod, but it's there.
Well, just to try to further help you, I have tried encoding a couple more albums with dBpowerAMP and Lame 3.98.2. I used the CBR 320kbps setting, -V 2, and -V 0 all at normal quality. FYI - increasing the quality setting in dBpowerAMP (with Lame 3.98 and above) doesn't do anything. It changes the -q values that Lame encodes with. However, with Lame 3.98, I believe that -q3 (normal) and -q0 ("high quality") produce the same files. I say believe as I do not know the exact -q value numbers. I do know that going from normal to high quality doesn't change anything.
Have you tried restoring the iPod?
Well, just to try to further help you, I have tried encoding a couple more albums with dBpowerAMP and Lame 3.98.2. I used the CBR 320kbps setting, -V 2, and -V 0 all at normal quality. FYI - increasing the quality setting in dBpowerAMP (with Lame 3.98 and above) doesn't do anything. It changes the -q values that Lame encodes with. However, with Lame 3.98, I believe that -q3 (normal) and -q0 ("high quality") produce the same files. I say believe as I do not know the exact -q value numbers. I do know that going from normal to high quality doesn't change anything.
Have you tried restoring the iPod?
Thanks. Out of curiosity, which CDs did you encode? Did they have gapless tracks? And, were you able to play them without glitches between tracks?
Also, yes, I did do the restore. It didn't change anything.
I decided to play around with the command line version of lame (3.98.2 on OS X) to see if I could produce different results. I ripped the CD using iTunes to get wav files. I used this command line:
lame -b 320 --CBR --nogap *.wav
It produced files that are *almost* perfect. FYI, I'm using Dark Side of the Moon as my test case. There are barely perceptible clicks between the first/second and second/third tracks but most of the other transitions sound perfect.
I also tried:
lame_new -V 2 --nogap *.wav
This produced some odd results. The first track (Speak to Me) ended up missing much of the music and is reported to have a bit rate of 32Kbps. As for the track transitions, they're pretty bad. I've never used lame command line so I probably did something wrong. Is there something special I need to do to do gapless with VBR?
Thanks. Out of curiosity, which CDs did you encode? Did they have gapless tracks? And, were you able to play them without glitches between tracks?
The albums I used were gapless. Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon, Tool - Lateralus, Tool - 10,000 Days, and Korn - Issues. As I said, not a single issue on my iPod with either of the settings I used. Have you tried removing the --nogap option from the command line? I have never used that option with my encoding and yet the files I have playback gaplessly.
The --nogap option is really old and pretty much useless these days. They were talking about its demise nearly 6 years ago:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=16020 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16020)
The --nogap option is really old and pretty much useless these days. They were talking about its demise nearly 6 years ago:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=16020 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16020)
I can try without the nogap option. I actually didn't realize it wasn't recommended. So, do I need to do anything special to get gapless files?
Nope, though I have no idea what the problem is with your iPod.
I don't have an iPod, but are you saying that gapless = not quite gapless?!
Not at all. However, there are some instances when the transition from one song to the next is not smooth. I have heard this on my iPod a couple of times with Nero AAC files. There is a slight (less than one second) pause or click that can be heard when going from one song to another. So iPods are gapless but there are some instances where it might not be perfect (as with any technology). With the other person that I helped, we were able to download the sample and put it in an application. The little click/gap was actually around 0.3 seconds long. It wasn't anything to get all up in arms over.
So all I am saying is that gapless playback may have some instances (in my experience, these are few and far between if I even notice them at all) where it isn't truly gapless. It would be nice to determine if the OP is experiencing behavior like this or if there is an actual problem.
I think you're being far too forgiving.
If my CD player gave 0.3 second gaps on "gapless" CDs, then either the CD, or the player, would be going straight back to the shop!
Cheers,
David.
I might be wrong but I am sure that iTunes determines the gapless positions of a file before sending to the iPod, in that the iPod does not even read its own metadata, it is read by iTunes before uploading.
@dancrocker
Do you add tags like APE or an additional ID3v1, things that the software players are all aware of, but your Ipod doesn't know? (just a guess)
I don't have an iPod, but are you saying that gapless = not quite gapless?!
Not at all. However, there are some instances when the transition from one song to the next is not smooth. I have heard this on my iPod a couple of times with Nero AAC files. There is a slight (less than one second) pause or click that can be heard when going from one song to another. So iPods are gapless but there are some instances where it might not be perfect (as with any technology). With the other person that I helped, we were able to download the sample and put it in an application. The little click/gap was actually around 0.3 seconds long. It wasn't anything to get all up in arms over.
So all I am saying is that gapless playback may have some instances (in my experience, these are few and far between if I even notice them at all) where it isn't truly gapless. It would be nice to determine if the OP is experiencing behavior like this or if there is an actual problem.
Less than 1 second? 0.3 seconds? Just what do you think "gapless" means? AFAIK the gap in mp3 that lame nogap addresses is on the order of 15 milliseconds.
I can try without the nogap option. I actually didn't realize it wasn't recommended. So, do I need to do anything special to get gapless files?
No need. The option is obsolete in the sense that it is on by default now.
Less than 1 second? 0.3 seconds? Just what do you think "gapless" means? AFAIK the gap in mp3 that lame nogap addresses is on the order of 15 milliseconds.
I understand what gapless means. However, that doesn't mean that the iPod will always perform perfectly. That is what I have been trying to say. My experience with hard drive iPods is that gapless playback is not always 100% accurate. I am not sure where this comes from but my 5G 60GB iPod and 120GB iPod classic have both performed like this. About one song in a few thousand will not transition correctly. Whether I am being "too forgiving" or not, that is up to opinion. I don't think that hearing a small gap (if I even notice it) in a group of ~2000 songs is an issue.
My experience with hard drive iPods is that gapless playback is not always 100% accurate. I am not sure where this comes from but my 5G 60GB iPod and 120GB iPod classic have both performed like this. About one song in a few thousand will not transition correctly.
OK... looks like the issue is that the mechanical drive may not fetch the new file in the time allowed for by the firmware. Maybe the drive is too fragmented.
I did have the same issue with my old Riovolt (CDR player.) It did gapless vorbis ok with a CDR that was written all at once, but with a CDRW formatted for "drag, drop, delete" fetching the new file often involved too many head seeks and took too long.
The option is obsolete in the sense that it is on by default now.
This is not correct. An entirely different method is used.
OK... looks like the issue is that the mechanical drive may not fetch the new file in the time allowed for by the firmware. Maybe the drive is too fragmented.
I was thinking that it might be mechanical in that the hard drive is spinning up and filling the temporary memory while the software continues to play the music in the temp memory. I cannot verify this though as my 5G 60GB iPod and 120GB iPod classic models are in thick iSkin cases. I cannot feel or hear the hard drive spinning in those cases. It takes a few minutes to carefully take the case off and another few minutes to put it back on. So the problem I am talking about might occur on the rare occasion when the iPod's hard drive is spinning up and filling the temp memory while the software is switching from one song to the next one being loaded.
Based on what the OP is saying, I don't think this is the issue though. My reason for posting about it was to determine if the OP was experiencing this type of issue or is actually having gapless playback problems on their iPod. It sounds like iTunes is not scanning the files for gapless playback. The iPod does not rely on song metadata for gapless playback. Instead, iTunes scans the files and essentially tells the iPod how to play them back. iPods get most of their information from iTunes whether it is non-embedded album art, location of the files on the iPod's hard drive, gapless playback information, playlists, etc. Files will not playback gaplessly unless iTunes scans them before syncing to the iPod. dan reports never seeing iTunes scan the files. This makes me believe that iTunes is not scanning the files hence they aren't playing back gaplessly. There are over 5000 Lame mp3 files on my iPod yet I haven't experienced issues (aside from the one I mentioned but that occurs with Lame mp3, Nero AAC, and iTunes AAC files; it is also normal behavior for hard drive iPods and hardly noticeable; I didn't have this issue with my 1G 16GB iPod touch).
I should have said that all of the mp3 files I tested used ID3v2.3 tags only. Also, I found out that the problematic files have to be deleted from iTunes (but not the computer), iTunes has to be restarted, and then the files can be added back to iTunes. That will force iTunes to re-scan the files for gapless playback.
edit: grammar
for the record, my mp3 files that work properly (gapless) are also all ID3v2.3 (only), tagged with either dbpa, mp3tag, or foobar (with compatibility mode turned on).
>dbPowerAmp or the free version? The free version uses BLADE
No it does not...
Sorry, I thought it did at some point. I guess that's changed.
There was no gapless scanning; only something about "detmining song volume".
Wow, I can't believe we haven't figured this out yet. This should just simply work, which is what makes it difficult to figure out what's wrong.
Based on what you've described, I would concentrate on why you do not see the "determining gapless" message in iTunes when you import your music files. I think you've determined that the mp3 files themselves have been properly made. Ever since I've been using mp3 files encoded by LAME, I've seen this message in iTunes. I started out using version 7.x. I recently installed 9.x on my laptop. I've never had an issue like this.
You mention at one point using a older Nano and seeing an issue. That rules out fragmentation I would think.
Have you tried newer/older versions of iTunes? Perhaps the version of iTunes that you have has a bug.
I've never seen "determining song volume". Do you have somesort of gain feature turned on? Maybe you can try turning that off.
I've never seen "determining song volume". Do you have somesort of gain feature turned on? Maybe you can try turning that off.
You'll only see this if you have SOUNDCHECK selected in ITUNES.
@dancrocker
Do you add tags like APE or an additional ID3v1, things that the software players are all aware of, but your Ipod doesn't know? (just a guess)
I don't know really. I get whatever dbpoweramp adds. I'm not familiar enough with the s/w or LAME in general to know. I guess I could look to see what was added by opening a file in foobar2000.
There was no gapless scanning; only something about "detmining song volume".
Wow, I can't believe we haven't figured this out yet. This should just simply work, which is what makes it difficult to figure out what's wrong.
Based on what you've described, I would concentrate on why you do not see the "determining gapless" message in iTunes when you import your music files. I think you've determined that the mp3 files themselves have been properly made. Ever since I've been using mp3 files encoded by LAME, I've seen this message in iTunes. I started out using version 7.x. I recently installed 9.x on my laptop. I've never had an issue like this.
You mention at one point using a older Nano and seeing an issue. That rules out fragmentation I would think.
Have you tried newer/older versions of iTunes? Perhaps the version of iTunes that you have has a bug.
I've never seen "determining song volume". Do you have somesort of gain feature turned on? Maybe you can try turning that off.
I agree that this should just work. It's very frustrating.
I also agree that I don't think any kind of a fragmentation problem because, as you say, the nano has a similar problem. In addition, files ripped with iTunes work fine.
Regarding "determining gapless", I was expecting that the iPod would use the gapless info in the MP3 during playback. Obviously, some here think this is not the case. Still, something doesn't add up. The files play almost perfectly; there's no gap that I would expect if the files were truly not encoded with any gapless info and if iTunes didn't fix them up. It seems that either iTunes or the iPod is using this info even though iTunes doesn't explicitly say anything about it. Perhaps the gapless scanning only happens if the files are imported without any gapless info? I seem to remember that iTunes is able to take non-gapless files and create gapless ones. I don't know how it works, but I think it can do this. If this is true, then I wouldn't expect any gapless scanning for the files I'm importing.
I would appreciate it someone could do an experiment for me: import MP3s that have gapless info in the header and see if their iTunes indicates any gapless scanning is going on.
I guess I could try an old version of iTunes but, for one thing, I don't know where to get old versions. For another, I'm not sure I'd be interested in down-grading just to fix this. My "work-around" would be to rip and encode with iTunes, using ALAC as my lossless (archive) format. I'd rather use FLAC but if I can't find a way to make clean MP3s out of FLAC, I'll settle for ALAC.
One specific question: Is there a way to create MP3s without the gapless info (e.g. a LAME command line option)? If so, I could do this and see if iTunes does the automatic gapless scanning. As an alternative, can I edit the MP3 to get rid of these fields (or change the value to something innocuous)?
As I have said, iTunes scans my Lame mp3 files during the import process. I can even take iTunes mp3 or iTunes AAC files from one computer, copy them to another, and iTunes on that system will scan for gapless playback. The scanning always occurs regardless of the encoder or ripper. I also don't think that iTunes stores the gapless playback information in a separate file, I know this. Many of us (on a different set of forums) have been observing iTunes' behavior for years. It stores non-embedded album artwork, gapless playback information, playlists, ratings, and various other aspects all in a separate file from the lossy files. There is something wrong if iTunes is not scanning your files for gapless playback. Seeing anything regarding volume means that you have Sound Check enabled.
The first step would be to disable Sound Check, delete the files from your iTunes library, restart iTunes, and import the files back in. Gapless tag/medata or not, iTunes will still scan the files. I suggest that you delete all of the problematic tracks from your iTunes library, restart iTunes, and then add them again. You should see the "scanning for gapless playback" message when importing over 15 files.
I also don't think that iTunes stores the gapless playback information in a separate file, I know this.
It stores non-embedded album artwork, gapless playback information, playlists, ratings, and various other aspects all in a separate file from the lossy files.
So which is it?
I also don't think that iTunes stores the gapless playback information in a separate file, I know this.
It stores non-embedded album artwork, gapless playback information, playlists, ratings, and various other aspects all in a separate file from the lossy files.
So which is it?
It is the latter. ITUNES stores this information in a database and the IPOD uses the database info rather than the tag info once the files are ON the ipod itself. So ITUNES reads the tags (to create its own database) but the IPOD/IPHONE does NOT read the tags.
So which is it?
It is both. My first statement is poorly worded. I should have said "I know that iTunes stores gapless playback information in a separate file." I was trying to show that dan's statement of "some people think" should have actually been "people know." So basically I was saying that I don't "think" iTunes stores all of that information in a separate file, I know that iTunes stores that information in a separate file. Bad wording on my part, sorry about that.
So which is it?
It is both. My first statement is poorly worded. I should have said "I know that iTunes stores gapless playback information in a separate file." I was trying to show that dan's statement of "some people think" should have actually been "people know." So basically I was saying that I don't "think" iTunes stores all of that information in a separate file, I know that iTunes stores that information in a separate file. Bad wording on my part, sorry about that.
Ok, this is good info. I will try your other suggestions tonight. Perhaps I never saw the gapless message because I only was importing 10 files. I will import a larger amount to see what happens. Thanks.
Just make sure that you aren't playing music while doing this and that all you see is the Apple logo at the top of iTunes. Even on my 1.66GHz netbook (with 2GB of RAM), the message appears very quickly when importing 50 files. In fact there are times when I don't see it simply because the "copying to iTunes library" message covers it up. So make sure you monitor iTunes closely.
Just make sure that you aren't playing music while doing this and that all you see is the Apple logo at the top of iTunes. Even on my 1.66GHz netbook (with 2GB of RAM), the message appears very quickly when importing 50 files. In fact there are times when I don't see it simply because the "copying to iTunes library" message covers it up. So make sure you monitor iTunes closely.
OK. But, if the scanning isn't happening, then I would think the file playback would have obvious gaps, not barely audible clicks (which is what I'm hearing).
Not necessarily. For example, back when the Nero AAC encoder produced files that would not playback gaplessly on iPods, the gap between the songs was extremely small.
My issue with your problem is that the files are playing back gaplessly with iTunes yet not on your iPod. To me, that means that either there is some software problem on your iPod (which restoring it would have fixed) or iTunes is not correctly syncing the content to said iPods. I am leaning towards the later as you have tested both your iPod and an additional iPod.
Another thing you might want to try is copying the problematic tracks over to another computer and manually syncing them to your iPod. That would further narrow down the problem to see if it is with iTunes on your computer or if it is with the files.
Not necessarily. For example, back when the Nero AAC encoder produced files that would not playback gaplessly on iPods, the gap between the songs was extremely small.
My issue with your problem is that the files are playing back gaplessly with iTunes yet not on your iPod. To me, that means that either there is some software problem on your iPod (which restoring it would have fixed) or iTunes is not correctly syncing the content to said iPods. I am leaning towards the later as you have tested both your iPod and an additional iPod.
Another thing you might want to try is copying the problematic tracks over to another computer and manually syncing them to your iPod. That would further narrow down the problem to see if it is with iTunes on your computer or if it is with the files.
I'll play around with all of these ideas soon. Tonight I have plans so it may not be till the weekend. But I will follow through. This has become more of a curiosity (quest? obsession? ) than a practical problem.
Not necessarily. For example, back when the Nero AAC encoder produced files that would not playback gaplessly on iPods, the gap between the songs was extremely small.
My issue with your problem is that the files are playing back gaplessly with iTunes yet not on your iPod. To me, that means that either there is some software problem on your iPod (which restoring it would have fixed) or iTunes is not correctly syncing the content to said iPods. I am leaning towards the later as you have tested both your iPod and an additional iPod.
Another thing you might want to try is copying the problematic tracks over to another computer and manually syncing them to your iPod. That would further narrow down the problem to see if it is with iTunes on your computer or if it is with the files.
I'll play around with all of these ideas soon. Tonight I have plans so it may not be till the weekend. But I will follow through. This has become more of a curiosity (quest? obsession? ) than a practical problem.
Ok, I ripped 98 tracks from various CDs, removed these tracks from iTunes, restarted iTunes, and imported the newly ripped tracks. I
did see the message about determining gapless info. Then, I synced to my iPod. The playback had the same issue as before.
Then, I removed these tracks and imported my original MP3s (the ones ripped with iTunes a couple of years ago). I did notice that there was no "determining gapless information" message when I imported these. Is this to be expected? Of course, these playback perfectly.
I did something else which may or may not be helpful. I compared three files of "Speak to Me" by Pink Floyd. The three files are:
#1: Ripped with EAC (LAME) by a friend of mine
#2: Ripped with dbpoweramp (LAME) by me
#3: Ripped with iTunes 7.1.1 a few years ago by me
Perhaps it's due to the difference in encoders (LAME vs. iTunes), but the first two have identical length (1:08.347) and samples (3014088). However, the third one is a little longer (1:08.377) and more samples (3015407). I would have dismissed this entirely except that the first two files don't play right on my iPod and the last one does.
I'm about ready to give up and conclude I can't make MP3s for my iPod with LAME.
Ooops, I didn't see your reply. Did you delete the songs off of your iPod before syncing the re-imported versions?
Ooops, I didn't see your reply. Did you delete the songs off of your iPod before syncing the re-imported versions?
I honestly can't remember. However, I do know from experience that if I remove a track from iTunes and re-rip the same track (without syncing the iPod in between), the new track replaces the older one on the iPod.
The gapless information used by the iPod is not what is stored in the track.
EDIT: I mean to say the iPod doesn't read the track for gapless information, it's stored elsewhere.
Right. In my experience, it helps to delete the song off of the iPod first and then sync the new content so that an updated library file is synced to the iPod. Otherwise iTunes might just replace the file without updating the library file (this has happened to me before).
I also agree that I don't think any kind of a fragmentation problem because, as you say, the nano has a similar problem. In addition, files ripped with iTunes work fine.
Has anybody ever come up with any sort of answer to this? The same issue appears in this thread (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=70778) without an answer. I've been having exactly the same problem: iTunes plays things fine regardless of whether the MP3s were created in iTunes or LAME, while my iPod (Classic, 120 GB) will sometimes produce small hiccups between LAME files. That is to say, some files produced by LAME always sound fine, while others always have hiccups between them. Files produced by iTunes never have hiccups between them when played on the iPod.
I haven't done quite the amount of testing Dan has, but my experiences thus far have been consistent. Also, I don't have all the details in front of me regarding versions and such, but can provide them if requested. I updated LAME within the past few months, so it is pretty recent.
Bump?
Create a new thread, you're bumping a thread that's nearly 4 years old and expecting people to go through 3 pages of replies to see what it is.
In fact you bumped it last time after over 2 years! Now 1 year later you've bumped it again.
Bumping is better than creating a new thread.
Please disregard probedb's suggestion. If a new thread is started I will merge it back into this one.
I might be wrong but I am sure that iTunes determines the gapless positions of a file before sending to the iPod, in that the iPod does not even read its own metadata, it is read by iTunes before uploading.
I have found that I must restart iTunes after adding a new album in order for it to scan that album for gapless information and that this must be done before uploading the album to an i-device.
I also know that seeking within a Lame VBR file will often break gapless playback once that file has reached the end.
I have found that I must restart iTunes after adding a new album in order for it to scan that album for gapless information and that this must be done before uploading the album to an i-device.
Are you initiating some sort of scan? I haven't seen any sort of "scanning for gapless" messages, either during import or after restarting iTunes.
At the moment I've resigned myself to always encoding as MP3 in iTunes. It works fine, but it's definitely more work than just hitting convert in Foobar.
Restarting iTunes initiates the scan. It happens extremely quickly if done over just one album.
It will not alter the gapless info on your i-device. If an album was placed on your i-device before it was scanned in iTunes, it will need to be deleted and re-uploaded.
I'm using 10.7, FWIW.