Happy new year! Oh, suffering from a headache. Was back home at 5am
The donation button has been removed due to PayPal being thieves.
-v please
I've got every symptom except headache Happy new year everyone.
And whats the story with paypal? Maybe there is some alternative...
Really? No one saw this coming? No one here goes to 4chan?
PayPal is known to close accounts and steal all the money, especially after the value of the account gets higher. It's been common knowledge for many years now. They are going to "donate" your money to their charity and write it off on taxes on top of that, if you complain. If you don't complain they will just pocket it.
I really don't see how PayPal or eBay are still up considering everything they've done over the years and the amount of sites that exists to get the word out.
I didn't know about this, although I've read stories about contacting someone at PayPal in person is impossible, which makes resolving issues very hard or impossible.
I put Paypal into the same category like Last.fm, Myspace, Google*, Facebook and so on... unbelievable popular services with unbelievable dangerous terms of agreement. They don't treat you like customers, but like sources of information. Stay away!
What's wrong with last.fm?
It really is a shame about the Paypal thing. Perhaps there's an alternative service that can be used that we can still donate to.
It's called sending your credit card details to Peter Pawloski.
4chan is not a reliable source for news. Ever.
The donation button has been removed due to PayPal being thieves.
You mean the percentage of transactions they tell you they charge as a fee? It's in the terms you agree to.
PayPal decided that Peter was a nonprofit organization and wanted his operation details, tax deduction papers and such. An explanation email didn't change anything and they suspended his account. People could still donate but he cannot get his money out.
Ouch. Yeah, that's a different story all together.
I didn't know about this, although I've read stories about contacting someone at PayPal in person is impossible, which makes resolving issues very hard or impossible.
I put Paypal into the same category like Last.fm, Myspace, Google*, Facebook and so on... unbelievable popular services with unbelievable dangerous terms of agreement. They don't treat you like customers, but like sources of information. Stay away!
I've had problems getting through to a human at PayPal. As a result of numerous attempts resolving issues I strongly resist using them, and am unhappy at sites that 'only' use PayPal. Don't know if there are any alternatives, but I just don't like PayPal and their way of doing business.
So, that's at least one who confirms the difficulty reaching a human and resolving issues.
Regards,
Tom C
I am paying tribute to Peter for having the courage to call a spade a spade ("PayPal being thieves").
It does happen that this company blocks your money if you do not agree to send them copies of your incoming invoices for articles you sold using their service - which would mean to inform a company, which has nothing to do with your business besides the mode of payment, about your trading partners, the intensity of your partnership with them, your gross yield and so on.
PayPal acts as a kind of bank but could anybody imagine another bank behaving this way? What do they think who they are?
Unfortunately this situation I am knowing from since years kept me from donating money in many cases.
Sometimes I think it would be safer to route my money through a deposed Nigerian prince than paypal.
I will never deal with PayPal again!!!!!!!!!!!
ftc
PayPal acts as a kind of bank but could anybody imagine another bank behaving this way? What do they think who they are?
PayPal legally is a bank in Europe since 2007 when they obtained a bank license in Luxembourg. I have no idea how much their behaviour is influenced by legal regulations (regarding prevention of tax evation or money laundering) and how much is just part of their way of doing business (though I do know someone I could ask regarding regulations).
The donation experiment was interesting and the initial response was really great.
However, after the first week, donation rates dropped to a level that would barely cover server bills. I do not have the luxury of knowing how this would have turned out in long run or how the rates would have changed with different site layout making the "donate" button harder to miss. I might try this again at some point later, if I find some reasonable alternative to PayPal.
It is clear that PayPal will suspend people's accounts without any legit reason given. I'm aware of multiple other people using PayPal in the exactly same manner as I did - including certain members of this forum, I won't point fingers at them or else they might get in trouble too. I responded to PayPal clarifying the situation as soon as I got their "warning letter", but there has been no further response from them at all. Sure I could try fighting them (emails, phone, whatever) to restore normal status of the account, but it sounds like more trouble than it's worth; I started transferring everything out on regular basis since the first signs of trouble so not much has been lost.
I would like to mention that the mildly annoying ads on our site easily cover foobar2000.org/hydrogenaudio.org server costs. I just wanted to let people who find my software to be particularly useful express their gratitude - this is how in my personal opinion purchasing of intellectual property should work: you decide whether, when and how much you pay.
Removal of the donation option will not in any way interfere with foobar2000 development.
PayPal legally is a bank in Europe since 2007 when they obtained a bank license in Luxembourg. I have no idea how much their behaviour is influenced by legal regulations (regarding prevention of tax evation or money laundering) and how much is just part of their way of doing business.
In spite of Peter's final remark I would like to answer:
As a bank PayPal surely has to fulfill certain legal regulations but exactly that is the crucial point in my eyes: no European bank is allowed to freeze your account off its own bat, based only on its own speculation. No bank is allowed to keep
your money. If this condition is a part of its general terms and conditions it is a gagging contract.
If a bank suspects one of its customers to be a criminal it has to inform the police and if the police's investigation confirms that suspicion a prosecutor or judges may block that account. But even so it is not the bank which gets your money. PayPal give a damn about the independency of executive, legislative and judicial powers: first they speculate, then they investigate by requesting sensitive documents (read what Yirkha said above), then they pronounce a judgement. That way they ruined a lot of eBay sellers.
I see in your member's profile that you are a German. So I venture to bring to your attention episode 29 (http://www.cczwei.de/index.php?id=issuearchive&issueid=35) of the German Computer Club 2 Podcast.
The passage in question in the mp3 file (http://www.computerclub-2.de/CC-Zwei-29.mp3) starts at 22'40 min.
4chan is not a reliable source for news. Ever.
The donation button has been removed due to PayPal being thieves.
You mean the percentage of transactions they tell you they charge as a fee? It's in the terms you agree to.
Zarggg, you shouldn't make stupid statements about things you know nothing of.
4chan is a classic case where THOUSANDS of dollars, not just a few dollars, was stolen. PayPal used the same methods used in this situation to steal that money. I didn't even need to hear more than what was on the front page and I got it right on the nose (as was explained above). This is how they operate and why I stopped using PayPal and eBay 4 or more years ago.
PayPal has been pulling this crap for years, I'm surprised they are still in business.
Anyhow I heard about this 'Revolution Money Exchange', here's their site:
https://revolutionmoneyexchange.com/ (https://revolutionmoneyexchange.com/)
Anyone know anything about them?
Looks like a pretty decent site and backed by banks...
Damn. I only gave 5 bucks a couple of weeks ago. I wanted to donate more, but that is all I had at the moment on my PayPal account. I really wanted to donate much more, since I have been using foobar2000 since year one.
Now I feel super guilty and cheap.
I hope Peter gives us another alternative. Now it just makes me remember an old Rod Stewart song that says: "never wait or hesitate, you may never get another chance".
Happy new year to all.
I mentioned this story to my wife and - surprisingly - she quite forcefully blew it off as hot air. She's dealt very heavily with Paypal's support dept over the last few months, in the course of her work with a nonprofit, and not only did she find them very pleasant to deal with, she was able to deal with a regional support manager directly to answer the question as to whether or not PayPal requires tax return information from nonprofits. (The answer, fwiw, is no.)
Paypal nonprofit accounts require 503c status, and they used to not ask for verification on this fact, but now they do. From what I understand presently - and IANAL, nor an accountant or a CPA, and am not that great at taxes - if the account was configured as a nonprofit, and is not owned by a 503c, then what PayPal has done is no different than what any other bank in the US would do.
... There is some organization behind foobar2000, right?
I mentioned this story to my wife and - surprisingly - she quite forcefully blew it off as hot air. She's dealt very heavily with Paypal's support dept over the last few months, in the course of her work with a nonprofit, and not only did she find them very pleasant to deal with, she was able to deal with a regional support manager directly to answer the question as to whether or not PayPal requires tax return information from nonprofits. (The answer, fwiw, is no.)
Paypal nonprofit accounts require 503c status, and they used to not ask for verification on this fact, but now they do. From what I understand presently - and IANAL, nor an accountant or a CPA, and am not that great at taxes - if the account was configured as a nonprofit, and is not owned by a 503c, then what PayPal has done is no different than what any other bank in the US would do.
... There is some organization behind foobar2000, right?
All I can say is I don't trust PayPal from my dealings with them. They are arrogant and make no attempt to read emails. It seems if you don't fit into one of their problems, they don't want to hear, and they will not respond to any other queries. Just do a google search on paypal problems: Results 1 - 10 of about 62,800,000 for paypal problems. (0.31 seconds)
I'm not alone.
Tom C
Do a google search for pigs fly:
Results 1-10 out of 14.900.000 in 0.32 sec......
I mentioned this story to my wife and - surprisingly - she quite forcefully blew it off as hot air. She's dealt very heavily with Paypal's support dept over the last few months, in the course of her work with a nonprofit, and not only did she find them very pleasant to deal with, she was able to deal with a regional support manager directly to answer the question as to whether or not PayPal requires tax return information from nonprofits. (The answer, fwiw, is no.)
So I assume that Peter has the wrong wife merely?
Couldn't your wife sort the things out for him (and maybe some others)?
Let me clarify:
I'm not interested in using PayPal's services again, regardless of whether the current situation could be somehow sorted out or not.
The incisive tone of my post apparently was not clear enough, you misunderstood me. My English is too badly.
I haven't personally used them more than making an account and looking around the panel but Moneybookers.com (http://www.moneybookers.com/) looks like a good place.
... she find them very pleasant to deal with, she was able to deal with a regional support manager directly ...
... no different than what any other bank in the US would do.
I don't have a direct personal experience other than clicking "Pay using PayPal" buttons, but I think it would be good to note that how their support (and organization altogether) works in the US in your area doesn't say anything about how it works elsewhere, for example in Poland. If not related to maybe some different legal stuff, you can always, for example, simply run into a stupid individual who does his job poorly and that can change the whole view a lot.
Let me restate my post in less politic terms:
If you are committing tax fraud, do not blame PayPal for not letting it happen on their watch.
My post wasn't really intending to convey a request to assist, merely to inform. I don't know nearly enough about the specifics of the situation, and I really do want PayPal to be in the wrong here, but the scope of unknown information allows potential situations in which PayPal's behavior is somewhere between "more or less justified" and "required by law". It also allows many more situations where PayPal is merely acting like the jerks we already know they are. Just sayin'.
Regardless, none of this should be discussed further in a public forum. Talk to a CPA, kids.
I stopped reading after "tax fraud".
If Paypal think they can treat customers any way they want, I'm all in for spreading the word! I think the story should be elaborated directly on the website, for anyone downloading foobar2000 to know!
Well, that's just my opinion anyway...
Do a google search for pigs fly:
Results 1-10 out of 14.900.000 in 0.32 sec......
Read the google search on PayPal problems, there are several common themes to them.
Tom C
If you are committing tax fraud, do not blame PayPal for not letting it happen on their watch.
Is it tax fraud to accept donations from a .org domain when you are not a non-profit organization? Perhaps the donations should have been routed through a foobar2000.com e-mail address, which is also a valid domain. Maybe then they would not have assumed Peter to be operating a non-profit organization. Even so, they ignored his response, so fuck them anyway.
Which are the alternatives?
Let me clarify:
I'm not interested in using PayPal's services again, regardless of whether the current situation could be somehow sorted out or not.
OK, fair enough.
How can we compensate you then, for using your program?
It has given me nothing but joy and I procrastinated long enough on sending some bucks your way. Now my chance seems gone. I can't give much, but I do mean to be at least a little grateful and I am sure I am not the only one.
I mean no disrespect.
Happy New Year.
what PayPal has done is no different than what any other bank in the US would do.
The way American banks handle their business is the reason for our current global financial crisis. Or does your wife declare that drama also to be nothing than hot air because she herself finds her bank manager very pleasant to talk and to deal with? Also this topic is about an European situation, not an American. The question what any other bank in the US would do is irrelevantly.
I am sorry to say that but your posts in this thread let me lose respect for you, Axon. Respect which was based both on your long-time membership here and the amount of your posts.
Your first contribution [{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] in this thread declares all posts published before your own as cackle. As an evidence for the accuracy of your assertion, you mention the experience of your wife. Your first mistake thereby is to pass a single subjective opinion as an objective fact, valid for the whole world. That is unscientifically. Your second mistake is to disparage all members which had reported other experiences than your wife as babblers. Decide yourself whether that is arrogance.
Your [a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=77427&view=findpost&p=677051]second (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=676986") contribution starts with a meaningless phrase which has nothing to do with what this topic is about:
If you are committing tax fraud, do not blame PayPal for not letting it happen on their watch.
No one did, nor the first neither the second. Instead of a correction in content of your first post you do criminalize others. And that is scandalously. Later in this post you are stating yourself to know nearly nothing about the specifics of the situation you are talking and judging about.
In your last sentence ["Regardless, none of this should be discussed further in a public forum. Talk to a CPA, kids"] you are presenting yourself to us as a paternal friend who is giving some good fatherly advice. Do you think you have to inform the admins, moderators and members what discussions are suitable for a public room? Furthermore the HA servers are located in the Neverlands, not in the USA. What specifically knowledge in what do you have to give such an advice?
Robertina.
This long post was necessary, because its short version (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=77427&view=findpost&p=677003) was completely misunderstood and I apparently failed to clarify what I am meaning and how angry I am about both Axion's post and PayPal's behavior.
How can we compensate you then, for using your program?
I would also be interested.
I guess Peter answered this:
I might try this again at some point later, if I find some reasonable alternative to PayPal.
The donation experiment was interesting and the initial response was really great.
However, after the first week, donation rates dropped to a level that would barely cover server bills.
In other words, it's more profitable to start this experiment several times. Clever
Maybe next edition of foobar should perform attack on paypal servers in the background.
Umm I use Paypal, but always spend it fast as it comes in. The bank account and credit card it's linked too are long expired, which also helps me not spend too much with it.
Maybe next edition of foobar should perform attack on paypal servers in the background.
Not funny. Why should we degrade ourselves and punish our users by turning foobar2000 into malware?
Joking only.
But I wouldn't care, as long as only a low priority background thread.
Let me restate my post in less politic terms:
If you are committing tax fraud, do not blame PayPal for not letting it happen on their watch.
Talk to a CPA, kids.
My, aren't
we the unsolicited-ly preachy type. What, pray tell, was it that forced your hand in accusing Peter of
fraud, exactly?
Was it the "I can't go to bed yet, people are wrong on the internet" xkcd? Or just 'general' defensiveness? Because your aggression towards anyone suggesting Paypal might just be an unregulated company which can just do whatever it wants if it so desires, (You do realise that Paypal is not accredited (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paypal#Bank_status) as a bank in the US, right?) considering it is utterly unclear to which authority you should report them if they are doing something you don't think they have the right to do, nor how that would help you get your money back, seems rather unwarranted otherwise.
Similarly your extrapolation from a single anecdote to a "generally true" conclusion was pretty painful to read, but that may just be my own fault, in unrealistically demanding you to be rigorous. In any case, it would've been better for you not to have posted that, especially the paternalistic claptrap at the end. It does your standing here very little good, so I hope your feeling of satisfaction at having been able to spout your opinion makes up for that.
Anyway, I'm sort of annoyed to see that Paypal can still pull this kind of thing off.. It's been at least 5 years since I first saw people reporting stuff like this, so I would've hoped that someone could've gotten through to some oversight agency to make them demand Paypal become more transparent.
I stopped reading after "tax fraud".
Tax Fraud, oh don't get me going, the IRS commits fraud against the American people on a daily basis!
The American people are sheep!
P.S. Sorry to go off topic...
This really upsets me, because it's the 4th or 5th time I've heard of legitimate groups having their accounts frozen by Paypal. I couldn't find a donate button, so I googled "foobar2000 donate", and ended up here.
Screw paypal.
I guess Peter answered this:
I might try this again at some point later, if I find some reasonable alternative to PayPal.
The donation experiment was interesting and the initial response was really great.
However, after the first week, donation rates dropped to a level that would barely cover server bills.
In other words, it's more profitable to start this experiment several times. Clever
A bit late but I could not resists here. With all due respect, you sir are an idiot. You have NO idea how much time and money goes into the development of an application like foobar and how selfless Peter has been over the YEARS, otherwise you would not have the gall to suggest something like that.
Lol.
It was just a joke. You can't call somebody an idiot with respect, though....
I posted this (message you quoted) be cause people kept asking what to do now to support, and peter made it clear that it will come back later, thats all.
People need to calm the shit down and learn what a joke is.
Edit: They usually come accompanied with emoticons and "*lol*".
Still waiting for foo_paypal.
> Not (really) a joke.
Still waiting for foo_paypal.
> Not (really) a joke.
Would maybe be more constructive with a foo_click-the-ads, which goes to the f2k website and opens the ads (assuming pay-per-click).
Not to take a stand in this particular case, but maybe for a bit of background information from a former finance geek:
- Banks -- and other financial institutions -- are required to take certain means against money laundry and terrorism-funding.
- It may or may not be that PayPal, with all the less-personal-id-required-than-your-local-bank-does, is expected to take more careful measures; in the very least it is most probably so that their business model would be threatened if it were found that personal PayPal accounts were routinely abused for money laundry or funding terrorist groups.
- So, they'd rather be erring on the safe side. And their services are so useful that a few dissatisfied customers won't ruin the business. But the financial supervisory authorities could, if it is found that the business model facilitates m-l&t-f.
- So, triggered by transaction behaviour, they will ask questions. They want you to prove that nothing wrong is going on in here. Here we have a programmer who receives money for his software. Of course he can point towards his web site which says these are "donations" and not taxable income, but he cannot expect that a financial institution does that job for him. And they would usually require more information than that, because if I were to pay him for work, I could use this button in order to evade taxes. And he could spend the money directly from the PayPal account. Or transfer them to his local jihadist.
- What happens if you don't supply the documentation? The case remains in limbo. No amount is being paid to the potential money launderer, and one case less to handle for PayPal's support centre.
- What about this "donate to charity" thing? Sounds unusual to me, but effectively solves the problem; if you ask that your money go to a shelter for homeless cats, then they can be fairly convinced that you don't evade tax on this money you have not been able to receive or spend. (You could probably ask for the money to be refunded to whomever paid them.)
There are probably quite a few web sites, services and pieces of software that generates at least a decent little sum of beer money, and some even make so much that it could be taxable. I hope in the very least that the trigger in this case was that there were a sufficient volume of donations. It would be well deserved.
Still waiting for foo_paypal.
> Not (really) a joke.
Would maybe be more constructive with a foo_click-the-ads, which goes to the f2k website and opens the ads (assuming pay-per-click).
I can tell you that I'm clicking like a damn fool on the AVS stuff add on foobar2000.org (had to add the site on white list in adblock).
I still feel unsatisfied.
Not to take a stand in this particular case, but maybe for a bit of background information from a former finance geek:
- Banks -- and other financial institutions -- are required to take certain means against money laundry and terrorism-funding.
- It may or may not be that PayPal, with all the less-personal-id-required-than-your-local-bank-does, is expected to take more careful measures; in the very least it is most probably so that their business model would be threatened if it were found that personal PayPal accounts were routinely abused for money laundry or funding terrorist groups.
- So, they'd rather be erring on the safe side. And their services are so useful that a few dissatisfied customers won't ruin the business. But the financial supervisory authorities could, if it is found that the business model facilitates m-l&t-f.
- So, triggered by transaction behaviour, they will ask questions. They want you to prove that nothing wrong is going on in here. Here we have a programmer who receives money for his software. Of course he can point towards his web site which says these are "donations" and not taxable income, but he cannot expect that a financial institution does that job for him. And they would usually require more information than that, because if I were to pay him for work, I could use this button in order to evade taxes. And he could spend the money directly from the PayPal account. Or transfer them to his local jihadist.
- What happens if you don't supply the documentation? The case remains in limbo. No amount is being paid to the potential money launderer, and one case less to handle for PayPal's support centre.
- What about this "donate to charity" thing? Sounds unusual to me, but effectively solves the problem; if you ask that your money go to a shelter for homeless cats, then they can be fairly convinced that you don't evade tax on this money you have not been able to receive or spend. (You could probably ask for the money to be refunded to whomever paid them.)
There are probably quite a few web sites, services and pieces of software that generates at least a decent little sum of beer money, and some even make so much that it could be taxable. I hope in the very least that the trigger in this case was that there were a sufficient volume of donations. It would be well deserved.
If tax comes with success, that's great. If, in addition, those taxes sabotage the whole thing, it's problematic.
And the charity thing sounds to me like terrorist covert operations. I live in France and I can guarantee that the box full of coins in my drugsture ("Barbès" in Paris), allegedly spend on children, is going to Hezbollah or worst...
But different country, different law ?
USA should tolerate all people who want give foobar2000 tons of $