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Hydrogenaudio Forum => General Audio => Topic started by: kraut on 11 January, 2012, 11:05:44 PM

Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: kraut on 11 January, 2012, 11:05:44 PM
http://jplay.eu/ (http://jplay.eu/)

Quote
JPLAY was built with only one goal in mind: optimal music reproduction. Its stripped-down, bare-bones playback engine fits completely inside CPU cache and can be used as stand-alone player or together with popular music management software:

JPLAY is the first audiophile player providing direct integration with JRiver Media center, foobar2000 and iTunes.

There is a GUI panel included for quick & easy adjustment of most important settings. This now makes JPLAY easier to use than ever and leverages hosts’ GUI with JPLAY’s Award-Winning audio playback technology.


Can someone explain of what the use a player within the foobar2000 player is?
It is better because:

Quote
jplay pre-loads complete playlist into RAM guaranteeing zero disk I/O during music reproduction.
Maximal Priority Scheduling
ultra low latency capabilities
Maximal Priority Scheduling Ensure uninterrupted flow of music data by running music playback at highest possible priority.
Hibernation Mode
multicore audio playback
Hibernation Mode Cancel OS ‘noise’ by eliminating dozens of OS jitter-inducing processes & hundreds of threads!
?

Is there any veracity to such claims? Knowing what little I know about computer audio (which is not all that much, despite having put together my own audio server with all the necessary hard and software) I really doubt there is any substance to the assertions. The only benefit I can see is to the developer charging something like 99$.....
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: chiwou on 12 January, 2012, 12:27:18 AM
well I installed the trial and it didn't work, it runs a service but the program won't recognize mp3 files or music from the network, for me definitely not worth 99 bucks
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: carpman on 12 January, 2012, 01:54:30 AM
This should give you some idea of the target audience (the "industry quotes"):

Quote
It squeezes all the details from the files

C.


Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: shakey_snake on 12 January, 2012, 01:55:54 AM
Tweako audiophiles (the type that HA's ToS #8 excludes) will, unfortunately believe that anything that is inconvenient or difficult to use must be better sounding.

Once you sell someone on this mindset, you can sell them anything. Hence, this program.

So yes, unless you need emotional reinforcement for an unhealthy lifestyle, it's just another scam.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: kraut on 12 January, 2012, 02:02:48 AM
Quote
unfortunately believe that anything that is inconvenient or difficult to use must be better sounding.


I noticed that. Convenience an anathema to the purity of sound.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: hlloyge on 12 January, 2012, 03:53:48 AM
I'm interested, how a playback engine, which is, by definition, software, can get into CPU cache? OK, if it's small as CPU cache is (but then, which one, and on which CPU's?), but how can you load it directly to CPU cache? Or I misunderstood something?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Carledwards on 12 January, 2012, 04:00:21 AM
Snake oil for those whose disposable income far exceeds their intelligence?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 12 January, 2012, 06:29:13 AM
Quote
jplay pre-loads complete playlist into RAM guaranteeing zero disk I/O during music reproduction

Of course I am all to tempted to pull this lousy joke about the lossy compressor they would need when I select an entire TB ...


But this is closing in on a couple of wishlist items of mine. For example, suppose you have a computer which is fanless except the drives. Then you might want a player which foobar2000 to
- buffer a few tracks from the playback queue, and then
- spin down the drives, and
- awake the drives when user is interacting (precisely when you are fiddling around with playlist, you can tolerate that noise)
- To push this further, what if your graphics card is noisy? You would want player to simply turn it off in screensaver mode and re-awake it upon keypress.

All this would probably require some memory allocation tricks I am not sure whether you can perform in MS-Windows. I remember I could that on appleware twenty years ago: each application had a minimum free memory requirement, and user could set «take this much if you can» and «do not take more than this».


In the meantime: another computer, another room.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 12 January, 2012, 06:48:14 AM
In the meantime: another computer, another room.


A larger CPU and GPU fan and letting Cool&Quiet downclock to 800MHz/core does wonders.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: ramicio on 12 January, 2012, 08:49:06 AM
This jitter hype is getting ridiculous.  The only thing that annoys me about computer playback is the physical noise.  But that is only with my current machine which houses six hard drives and needs to be cooled with a lot of air.  Once I pack that into a rack case, move it away, and build a small form factor as my desktop with only an SSD and no add-on GPU, I will have complete quiet.  I may even water cool the CPU, chipset, RAM, and power supply, and just build a giant passive cooling tower to get rid of every moving part (except the pump).
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 12 January, 2012, 08:55:37 AM
I'm interested, how a playback engine, which is, by definition, software, can get into CPU cache? OK, if it's small as CPU cache is (but then, which one, and on which CPU's?), but how can you load it directly to CPU cache? Or I misunderstood something?


Intersting point. AFAIK there are no Windows or Linux APIs for CPU cache management. One finds kernal routines for doing gross things like flushing the CPU cache, but in application code? Not so much!

Almost all CPU cache management is handled via natural contention. The most heavily used code tends to sit there for a little while.  The strongest thing that one could do is reduce the size of your program's code so that it would easily fit inside the cache so that at least it wouldn't force parts of itself out of cache while it was running. But, not hurting yourself and forcing yourself cache resident are worlds apart.

Most audio players don't need to be cache resident, and they don't use that much CPU when they are running. If this program could do what it claims, it would proably be a really bad idea!
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: tpijag on 12 January, 2012, 10:48:30 AM
well I installed the trial and it didn't work, it runs a service but the program won't recognize mp3 files or music from the network, for me definitely not worth 99 bucks

On their website, when they mention foobar2000 interaction, their playback 'engine' only takes over on lossless files. It hands playback duty back to foobar2000 on mp3. I did not see explanation of why.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: shakey_snake on 12 January, 2012, 11:11:39 AM
Quote
unfortunately believe that anything that is inconvenient or difficult to use must be better sounding.


I noticed that. Convenience an anathema to the purity of sound.

It allows someone to claim to be an expert in situations where expertise is not needed. 

[edit] (notice how much of an expert I am in demystifying this situation )
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mudlord on 16 January, 2012, 01:02:16 AM
well I installed the trial and it didn't work, it runs a service but the program won't recognize mp3 files or music from the network, for me definitely not worth 99 bucks

On their website, when they mention foobar2000 interaction, their playback 'engine' only takes over on lossless files. It hands playback duty back to foobar2000 on mp3. I did not see explanation of why.


All sample data is read via pipes from/to the service.
6AB66696    68 800AB86A    PUSH foo_jpla.6AB80A80                        ; UNICODE "\\\\.\\pipe\\JPLAYPipeOut"
0040CF03  |.  68 64094300                            PUSH jplay.00430964                            ;  UNICODE "\\\\.\\pipe\\JPLAYPipeIn"



The service completely breaks seeking too, since the input "decoder" has no knowledge of how to decode the said format..All the input component seems to do is decode samples from/to the service. Thats it. The service creates the WASAPI device instance, so it completely breaks FB2K compat.

And for more laughs? http://pastebin.com/MwieNEHm (http://pastebin.com/MwieNEHm)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: hlloyge on 16 January, 2012, 09:01:30 AM
Most audio players don't need to be cache resident, and they don't use that much CPU when they are running. If this program could do what it claims, it would proably be a really bad idea!


But you can't, AFAIK, get a program to be, as you say, cache-resident. Windows are running zillion little programs, services, subroutines and stuff, and all of them must get to CPU to be executed, so cache is fast fill-erasing. I guess they wanted to say that their software is smaller than cache memory on modern CPUs (anything from 2 to 12 MB, I'm not into cache memories), and they give false impression that they fill the program into CPU cache - instead, they are starting program as windows service and it's running entirely from RAM, which is audiophile good, and not loading decoders and whatsnot from HDD, which is audiophile bad.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: kraut on 16 January, 2012, 11:31:55 AM
Quote
For its size, at 256K, compared to other programs, it does seems a little expensive, say compared to Word or the Windows operating system, but it does produce the cleanest digital playback I’ve yet obtained from a computer even when the program is not in Hibernate mode. Get the trial program for free, see what you think, then go ahead and make the purchase.


http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/view...chapter_142.htm (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0911/aa_chapter_142.htm)

How does he know? No mention of any listening he has done compared what to what? Conclusion - the usual audiophile shite, same old same old.

And - apparently it is 99Euro, about 130$ or so.

Conclusion# 2 - not nigerian, a polish/netherland scam this time.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: JimH on 16 January, 2012, 06:39:58 PM
Is this based on ABX testing?

Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: godrick on 16 January, 2012, 08:18:22 PM
Jplay looks like it may be largely vaporware based on spurious claims, meaning it does little or nothing beyond what the "real" player does that it claims to "integrate" with.  It could easily be violating the licenses of each of the players it claims to enhance or whatever.

Put another way, it looks like a not-so-clever scam to extract money from people who use iTunes, Foobar2000, or JRiver without delivering anything of real value.  I see little difference between this scam and someone trying to resell Foobar2000, iTunes, or JRiver for $130 by distributing each of the developers' files.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mudlord on 16 January, 2012, 08:49:37 PM
Jplay looks like it may be largely vaporware based on spurious claims, meaning it does little or nothing beyond what the "real" player does that it claims to "integrate" with.  It could easily be violating the licenses of each of the players it claims to enhance or whatever.


It at the very least violate's FB2K's SDK license for abusing interfaces.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: godrick on 17 January, 2012, 12:45:40 AM
I also wonder how they gained permission to use Foobar2000's logo/icon for their money-making purposes. Its prominence on the main page shows they know how and are willing to leverage the credibility of others to make themselves money.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: JimH on 18 January, 2012, 04:01:13 PM
I also wonder how they gained permission to use Foobar2000's logo/icon for their money-making purposes. Its prominence on the main page shows they know how and are willing to leverage the credibility of others to make themselves money.

Our logo (JRiver) was also used without permission.  I've asked them to remove it.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: ExUser on 18 January, 2012, 04:24:33 PM
That isn't even a proper foobar2000 logo. That's some shitty rip-off.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: godrick on 18 January, 2012, 09:41:54 PM
Ooops!  JimH, I did not mean to exclude you from what I (and no doubt many others) consider to be applications of the highest quiality that seem to be exploited by jplay.  Glad to see you defending your IP.  It appears the jplay splash page has been changed to remove logos, but replaced with text referencing Foobar2000 and JRiver, so both applications continue to be mocked and exploited.

Perhaps more substantially, there are several significant claims made on the jplay website claiming "integration" with Foobar2000 and JRiver and providing capabilities to overcome claimed deficiencies.  To the extent use of any terms  or claims are defined in any SDK  or licensing terms (I'm not an attorney or software developer), I would find it very hard to believe that jplay would meet a reasonable standard for true integration given what it does and does not.

In thinking about trends, I think computer-based media mangement and playback will only increase, and I would expect others to also exploit the Foobar2000 and JRiver brands to make a fast buck in a manner that will hurt the Foobar2000 and JRiver brands.  I hope both Foobar2000 and JRiver have or acquire the ability to claim meaningful control over components or plug-ins to your applications and retain the right to essentially ban crapware tie-ins.  Again, I'm no attorney, but I've been involved in enough business disputes in the U.S. that involve IP that under certain conditions IP rights not defended can be lost, and I'd hate to see that happen to Foobar2000 or JRiver.  From my experience, I'd look closely at leveraging the concept of "derivative works" in evaluating jplay and similar and your rights.  I'm also aware of the risk that if those in your positions give too much attention to marginal operations like jplay you could inadvertently give crapware providers a boost, so a case-by-case decision process seems prudent.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mudlord on 19 January, 2012, 02:48:44 AM
Perhaps more substantially, there are several significant claims made on the jplay website claiming "integration" with Foobar2000 and JRiver and providing capabilities to overcome claimed deficiencies.  To the extent use of any terms  or claims are defined in any SDK  or licensing terms (I'm not an attorney or software developer), I would find it very hard to believe that jplay would meet a reasonable standard for true integration given what it does and does not.


I did research on JPLAY's code (sue me), and indeed, how it does things grossly defies any logic of "integration". Bypassing the audio services of FB2K? Thats a nono.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: JJZolx on 19 January, 2012, 03:39:32 AM
So how does it work, then? You use fb2k's user interface, and working as a plugin, audio is played through jplay? As an audio plugin, what logic does that defy?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mudlord on 19 January, 2012, 03:45:29 AM
All audio in FB2K is meant to be outputed to its output components.
This component outputs audio via the service. Thus, its broken. since "integration" is severed.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: JJZolx on 19 January, 2012, 03:49:34 AM
"Meant to be"?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mudlord on 19 January, 2012, 03:51:44 AM
Yes, all audio passes from the input decoder services to output/convertor/other process.

Hooking and bypassing said functionality breaks any notion of integration. And violates the FB2K SDK license.
I can't believe you are endorsing shoddy programming.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: JJZolx on 19 January, 2012, 03:57:00 AM
I'm not endorsing anything, but I don't see the "shoddy programming" angle. I would expect a plugin that claims to enhance sound quality to work exactly as it does. If it didn't bypass the audio sections of fb2k2(or iTunes or JRiver any other player that it integrates with) then it couldn't make that claim even if it wanted to.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mudlord on 19 January, 2012, 03:59:49 AM
I'm not endorsing anything, but I don't see the "shoddy programming" angle. I would expect a plugin that claims to enhance sound quality to work exactly as it does. If it didn't bypass the audio sections of fb2k2(or iTunes or JRiver any other player that it integrates with) then it couldn't make that claim even if it wanted to.


The burden of proof is now on you to prove why it has to take that approach. Plus, how does it "fit within CPU cache" if it relies on external programs to do the decoding?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: JJZolx on 19 January, 2012, 04:12:46 AM
There are a number of similar programs that exist for the Mac that work similarly with iTunes. Pure Music (http://www.channld.com/puremusic/) is just one of them.

Quote
* Pure Music handles all music playback
* iTunes acts as database, playlist organizer, etc. but doesn't play the music


jplay appears to work the same as these, except on the Windows platform with several of the popular Windows audio players. I haven't used Pure Music or jplay and I don't care to. I'm just saying that it's not a new concept.

Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mudlord on 19 January, 2012, 04:27:15 AM
I'm not endorsing anything, but I don't see the "shoddy programming" angle.


I do. If I was programming a scam like this, I would just randomly mess around with code to give the appearance of it doing something. Like running a bitcoin miner thread. Not go to the effort of making a external app that relies on IPC.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: godrick on 19 January, 2012, 09:13:31 AM
There are a number of similar programs that exist for the Mac that work similarly with iTunes. Pure Music (http://www.channld.com/puremusic/) is just one of them.

Quote
* Pure Music handles all music playback
* iTunes acts as database, playlist organizer, etc. but doesn't play the music


jplay appears to work the same as these, except on the Windows platform with several of the popular Windows audio players. I haven't used Pure Music or jplay and I don't care to. I'm just saying that it's not a new concept.


Some or many people seem to think the prevalence of such claims enhances their validity.  I don't.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: JimH on 19 January, 2012, 11:32:18 AM
Ooops!  JimH, I did not mean to exclude you from what I (and no doubt many others) consider to be applications of the highest quiality that seem to be exploited by jplay.  Glad to see you defending your IP.  It appears the jplay splash page has been changed to remove logos, but replaced with text referencing Foobar2000 and JRiver, so both applications continue to be mocked and exploited.

Perhaps more substantially, there are several significant claims made on the jplay website claiming "integration" with Foobar2000 and JRiver and providing capabilities to overcome claimed deficiencies.  To the extent use of any terms  or claims are defined in any SDK  or licensing terms (I'm not an attorney or software developer), I would find it very hard to believe that jplay would meet a reasonable standard for true integration given what it does and does not.

In thinking about trends, I think computer-based media mangement and playback will only increase, and I would expect others to also exploit the Foobar2000 and JRiver brands to make a fast buck in a manner that will hurt the Foobar2000 and JRiver brands.  I hope both Foobar2000 and JRiver have or acquire the ability to claim meaningful control over components or plug-ins to your applications and retain the right to essentially ban crapware tie-ins.  Again, I'm no attorney, but I've been involved in enough business disputes in the U.S. that involve IP that under certain conditions IP rights not defended can be lost, and I'd hate to see that happen to Foobar2000 or JRiver.  From my experience, I'd look closely at leveraging the concept of "derivative works" in evaluating jplay and similar and your rights.  I'm also aware of the risk that if those in your positions give too much attention to marginal operations like jplay you could inadvertently give crapware providers a boost, so a case-by-case decision process seems prudent.

In broad terms, I agree, and thanks for the kind words.

I'm concerned that jplay is claiming to "purify" an already pure bitstream.  Either there is no change (but people hear one) or they are "enhancing" the sound (turning the volume up a little, for example).

I don't want to get in a public fight with them, but I'm not happy with the claims they are making.  As someone here once said, if two players are playing to the same output, and neither is dropping the ball, the sound will be identical.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: josef on 22 January, 2012, 11:06:02 AM
Hello everyone - I am the guy behind jplay, nice to meet you all!

This thread was recently brought to my attention: I see some passionate posts (always a good thing), some questions (great), some criticisms (unavoidable) and even some rather blatant accusations ('scam'? lol...)...

So perhaps you'd kindly allow me to address these one by one?
First let me address user 'mudlord':

Dear 'mudlord' (I'd rather address you by name but it's ok if you want to hide it) you keep claiming that jplay somehow 'violates' foobar sdk license. Now, I happen to have carefully studied sdk-license.txt before developing foobar plugin and, for the life of me, I just can't see what you are talking about...?

Plugin is, in fact, using only documented API functions (as required and as is only possible – I don’t have Foobar source code nor do I need it) and it most certainly does not use 'window procedure hooks that modify user interface behaviors' which is specifically prohibited.
All it does, in fact, is simply catch documented & official ‘play’ event and issue ‘pause’ command – how does that ‘violate’ license??? Furthermore, the playback code itself is not even in the plugin but in a completely separate, isolated process that has absolutely nothing to do with Foobar at all…

I guess the root of your confusion is that Foobar API does not, in fact, provide any functions that allow for replacement of its playback engine? I.e. While multiple ‘output plugins’ are available (WASAPI, KS, Null etc) there isn’t actually an API which would allow developers to write their own ‘output plugin’ as that API is undocumented. And that is precisely why we don’t have such a plugin (although it would be more elegant) as using undocumented code would, indeed, breach sdk license….

You may very well ask why don’t we just use ‘dsp plugin’ mechanism ‘like everyone else’?

Indeed - it’s a valid question but I hope you can see why we can’t use that approach: simply because we claim that music played via jplay sounds better!

Sure, you may say that is an ‘extraordinary’ claim and I can understand that it sounds ‘strange’ (to say the least, lol). If bits are untouched, that is, ‘bit-perfect’, just how in the world can they sound ‘better’ when played via software A as opposed to software B? Makes no sense, right?

In fact, I believe this forum specifically prohibits any discussion on sound quality so I hope you’ll understand why I will refrain from opening that topic? But I had to mention this claim as otherwise I would not be able to address your concerns:

Simply put, ‘Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof’: Well, you see, if we claim that software can influence sound quality then the only way to support (or, indeed, refute!) such ‘extraordinary’ claim is to let people play some music and judge for themselves!

And that, in a nutshell, is why we can’t use ‘dsp plugin’ approach: because we do NOT, I repeat, do NOT, modify music bits in any way! In other words, if we had a dsp plugin that simply passes same bits back to Foobar then THAT would be a scam indeed!

But that’s not what we do and that’s why we HAVE TO stop Foobar playback…

Does this make plugin a bit ‘unusual’? Not really: such plugins have existed _for years_ on Mac (e.g. PureMusic, Amarra) – the fact that jplay is the first (and so far the only one) such plugin for Windows is indeed something new – But it’s not a new concept by a loooong shot….

And does it ‘violate’ sdk license? No freaking way….

JimH:

Dear Jim, I see you don’t want to get into ‘public fight’ – good! Personally, I don’t want to get into private fight either….

So let me try to respectfully address what you wrote above: You mention that we claim to ‘purify an already pure bitstream’.
Jim, we made no such silly claim – can you provide a link please?
I guess you must have confused us for someone else….I assume it’s an honest mistake as indeed I have heard such silly claims myself…

You also suggest that we are somehow ‘enhancing’ the sound by turning up volume or whatever…
Jim, we do no such thing: as mentioned above the bits are ‘left alone’ because that’s how I like them, thank you very much.

I digress: latest version does allow user to change volume in a bit-perfect way if hardware allows which is, btw, one of unique jplay features that you may be interested in adding to JRiver too….

So, please: suggesting that we are somehow ‘tricking’ data to fool the user when such ‘trickery’ can be easily tested is a bit, well, naïve?… Several devices allow for comparison of in & out bits: I’d expect you’d tested this before extending such not exactly flattering claims…
But ok, I guess you’re busy (aren’t we all) and were just exploring potential answers - hopefully now you got some? If not, I’ll be happy to elaborate…

Look, no wonder you (and others) are sceptical – Let me assure you, I was _extremely_ sceptical of this myself! I happen to have several decades of software development experience too (yes, I’m that old, lol): to me ‘bits are bits’ was as much a tautology before jplay (actually before XXHighEnd, to give credit where credit’s due) as it is to you now so I do know where you’re coming from and I sympathize…

All I say is listen for yourself: I trust you are intelligent enough to form your own opinion: I have no wish to convince you of anything – In fact, I don’t care if you don’t use it or don’t like it or don’t hear the difference at all – I even wouldn’t care if nobody bought it and I’d have to close website tomorrow: it’s not my day job, it’s just a passion…

So, what do you say: Are things a bit clearer now and can we have a civilized discussion and exchange arguments pro et contra in a respectful manner?
Or is it too late and lynching mentality has completely taken over this forum?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 22 January, 2012, 11:21:19 AM
Indeed - it’s a valid question but I hope you can see why we can’t use that approach: simply because we claim that music played via jplay sounds better!
You can provide objective evidence for this claim in accordance with #8 of our Terms of Service (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3974), or you can stop talking what otherwise appears to be complete nonsense.

Quote
Sure, you may say that is an ‘extraordinary’ claim and I can understand that it sounds ‘strange’ (to say the least, lol). If bits are untouched, that is, ‘bit-perfect’, just how in the world can they sound ‘better’ when played via software A as opposed to software B? Makes no sense, right?
Precisely.

Quote
In fact, I believe this forum specifically prohibits any discussion on sound quality so I hope you’ll understand why I will refrain from opening that topic?
It does no such thing. It prohibits claims about sound quality that are not backed up by evidence. Yours is such a claim, and therefore unwelcome. I suppose it makes even less sense than some of the others we get, so congratulations.

Quote
But I had to mention this claim as otherwise I would not be able to address your concerns:

Simply put, ‘Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof’: Well, you see, if we claim that software can influence sound quality then the only way to support (or, indeed, refute!) such ‘extraordinary’ claim is to let people play some music and judge for themselves!
Fine. I await the test results. Hey, why don’t you proffer them? I mean, ABXing is easy, and you clearly have a financial interest in proving your claims, right?

Quote
And that, in a nutshell, is why we can’t use ‘dsp plugin’ approach: because we do NOT, I repeat, do NOT, modify music bits in any way! In other words, if we had a dsp plugin that simply passes same bits back to Foobar then THAT would be a scam indeed!
Yes, indeed. Passing the same bits merely by another method. in contrast, is definitely worth 99 EUR.

Quote
And does it ‘violate’ sdk license? No freaking way….
I think that should be left to the developers of said SDK to decide.

What else?

Quote
Jim, we do no such thing: as mentioned above the bits are ‘left alone’ because that’s how I like them, thank you very much.
So what does your product do to improve quality?

Quote
Look, no wonder you (and others) are sceptical – Let me assure you, I was _extremely_ sceptical of this myself! I happen to have several decades of software development experience too (yes, I’m that old, lol): to me ‘bits are bits’ was as much a tautology before jplay (actually before XXHighEnd, to give credit where credit’s due) as it is to you now so I do know where you’re coming from and I sympathize…
Yeah, one day we’ll see the light.

Quote
All I say is listen for yourself: I trust you are intelligent enough to form your own opinion: I have no wish to convince you of anything – In fact, I don’t care if you don’t use it or don’t like it or don’t hear the difference at all – I even wouldn’t care if nobody bought it and I’d have to close website tomorrow: it’s not my day job, it’s just a passion…
Users are free to listen for themselves, perhaps double-blind if they’re concerned about falling victim to the placebo effect. I wonder what they’d conclude?

Until you can back up any of your hot air with ToS8-compliant evidence, there’s little to no potential for discussion here.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 22 January, 2012, 12:47:13 PM
we claim that music played via jplay sounds better!
[...]
In fact, I believe this forum specifically prohibits any discussion on sound quality so I hope you’ll understand why I will refrain from opening that topic?


To supplement db1989 (whom I trust to correct me if necessary):
- Claims of the type 'sounds better than' are welcome provided supported by documentation. Wisely enough, the terms of service do also specify what constitutes documentation.
- Claims of the type 'measures different than' are not ruled out, as long as you do not present it as to be audible by anyone. For example, a claim that «dither algorithm X which claims to be the same as dither algorithm Y, is indeed not – it produces a different output» is not a statement of the 'sounds different than' kind, and TOS#8 does therefore not apply.
- Of course – and it seems to be necessary to reiterate this logic – a statement of the kind 'sounds better than because it measures better than' does inter alia include a 'sounds different than' statement.


But I had to mention this claim


I guess the moderators will allow you – in a thread like this – to confirm that your company does actually make such a marketing claim. You will observe that other participants frequently cite such claims in a way that it is perfectly clear that they do not make the claim, they merely cite it for the purpose of a discussion. Such discussions usually conclude that the claim referred to is certainly (I) unsubstantiated, and possibly (II) totally unreasonable, and maybe (III) a fraud or (IV) a hoax or (V) gullibility or (VI) an(other) unfortunate instance of placebo. And one might of course discuss which of cases (III) through (VI) is more likely.



So, what do you say: Are things a bit clearer now and can we have a civilized discussion and exchange arguments pro et contra in a respectful manner?
Or is it too late and lynching mentality has completely taken over this forum?

(I'd rather address you by name but it's ok if you want to hide it)


While I did appreciate the ancient internet times when signing with name rather than nick was more common, it seems to me to be a very cheap rhetorical move to attack a single participant on the grounds of him/her presenting him/herself just in the standard way – and then afterwards reach for the holier-than-thou. With all due civilized respect, josef, you do have a certain credibility restoration issue to take care of.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: josef on 22 January, 2012, 02:06:45 PM
Db1989 – Why such aggressive, condescending and mocking tone?
Do you honestly believe that it contributes to discussion? If 1989 is year of your birth I could be a father to you, for Christ’s sakes… Please calm down and show some manners…

Now, your post is really confusing but lemme try to address your points (at least those I could figure out):
>  I await the test results. Hey, why don’t you proffer them? I mean, ABXing is easy, and you clearly have a financial interest in proving your claims, right?

Not sure what you mean: If I said to you that thousands of people have downloaded fully functional free trial, tested it (blind or not I have no way of knowing) and hundreds decided to buy would that qualify as ‘proffer’?
Or are you suggesting that hundreds of people from all over the world are all foolish idiots?
If so, would you be so kind to ‘proffer’ that?

>  Passing the same bits merely by another method. in contrast, is definitely worth 99 EUR.

Come on - That is really uncalled for…
I see now you never even tried it yet for some reason you bash it so passionately – go figure...
Because if you did you would see that there are quite a few options that affect what is going on in pc during playback.
If you are suggesting that those options are some sort of ‘fake cover’ please provide evidence or stop embarrassing yourself with such ill-advised mockery.

> I think that should be left to the developers of said SDK to decide.

Wrong.
SDK license is a written document supplied with SDK – You can’t ‘decide’ what you want! You need to abide by what is written!
BTW Have you actually read it?

>So what does your product do to improve quality?

Finally a clear question and not an insinuation or insult – perhaps there is hope here after all…
Anyway, glad you asked! Product does exactly what is written on website and what is also explained when you click on each option: Please try and let me know if this is untrue in your opinion.

>Users are free to listen for themselves, perhaps double-blind if they’re concerned about falling victim to the placebo effect. I wonder what they’d conclude?

That is all I’m saying: listen and make up your own mind.
I quoted you 'test results' and I will also tell you that apart from free fully functional trial we also provide full refund warranty.
If you are curious, so far our refund rate is 0,2%.

Porcus:

Sorry ‘Porcus’ but I have to disagree with you on two major points:

1.   If you think it is ‘normal’ to provide baseless allegations regarding legality of certain product while hiding under a pseudonym then I’m afraid we live in different worlds. In world I live in baseless allegations can and do get prosecuted as defamation.

2.   It is not me here who has a credibility issue, sorry pal, you got it all mixed-up.
It is those who claim or insinuate that product is ‘fake’!
So far, not a single piece of evidence was brought up!
Why?
If we are indeed frauds, you’re all smart people here so it should be really easy to establish that, right?
As in: ‘this product option claims it does this and that but look – it does not’.

I see you too haven’t even tried it – I encourage you just like db1989 to do and report back what _exactly_ does not perform as specified. (as mentioned, all options explain what they do and if you have any questions I’d be glad to help)

And please do keep out all that TOS stuff: This post is NOT about sound quality!
Let me repeat – it is NOT about sound quality!
It does NOT matter what you or I or anyone else thinks whether it is ‘better’ or ‘worse’ or ‘different’ or ‘same’ or whatever! Let’s keep that out shall we?

The ONLY thing that matters here are false accusations/insinuations being made that product is a ‘fake’ i.e. that it does not do what it says!

I’ll be awaiting your findings with great interest!
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 22 January, 2012, 02:28:00 PM
Db1989 – Why such aggressive, condescending and mocking tone?
It’s kinda one of my things. Tee-hee!

In seriousness, though, it’s a bad habit and not one I cultivate deliberately; but I might be forgiven somewhat for having little patience for discussions like this, given how often they arise on HA and how few real answers to questions are usually forthcoming from the claimants.

Quote
Do you honestly believe that it contributes to discussion?
I believe that outlandish claims should be challenged. How I do it is another matter, and you might want to stop using the latter as a means to dance around the former.

Quote
If 1989 is year of your birth I could be your father, for Christ’s sakes…
This is irrelevant.

Quote
Not sure what you mean: If I said to you that thousands of people have downloaded fully functional free trial, tested it (blind or not I have no way of knowing) and hundreds decided to buy would that qualify as ‘proffer’?
Why the ironic quotation marks? It’s a real word.

Quote
Or are you suggesting that hundreds of people from all over the world are all foolish idiots?
I think the number of idiots in the world is far greater*, although admittedly perhaps only a fraction of them have bought JPLAY. Which is not to say that everyone who has is an idiot: perhaps they were just not aware of the large amount of doubt surrounding claims such as its own. *(I may well be amongst that number, for all I know, but at least I’m open to the possibility unlike the majority!)

Quote
>  Passing the same bits merely by another method. in contrast, is definitely worth 99 EUR.

Come on - That is really uncalled for…
I see now you never even tried it yet for some reason you bash it so passionately – go figure...
Because if you did you would see that there are quite a few options that affect what is going on in pc during playback.
I don’t need to try it. You said yourself that your program doesn’t change the bitstream at all, and I don’t believe that the processes that you circumvent can (except in abnormal circumstances) either.

Quote
If you are suggesting that those options are some sort of ‘fake cover’ please provide evidence or stop embarrassing yourself with such ill-advised mockery.
Well, you’re putting words in my mouth here, but I won’t comment on the degree to which I agree with them. Asking me for evidence whilst offering none yourself, the claim that I’m embarrassing myself has a certain irony to it.

Quote
> I think that should be left to the developers of said SDK to decide.

Wrong.
SDK license is a written document supplied with SDK – You can’t ‘decide’ what you want! You need to abide by what is written!
BTW Have you actually read it?
I’ve read what users with actual connections to foobar2000 (unlike my superficial one) have to say, and my guess is that they have a better idea than a third party such as yourself. They can comment on your view of the situation.

Quote
>Users are free to listen for themselves, perhaps double-blind if they’re concerned about falling victim to the placebo effect. I wonder what they’d conclude?

That is all I’m saying: listen and make up your own mind.
[. . .]
I’ll be awaiting your findings with great interest!
I explained above why I have no desire to. Those with more energy than me can try this if they want to. I’ll be awaiting their findings and your reaction.

Besides, the burden of proof is with the claimant. Why are you so unwilling to provide evidence, except for admonitions to read statements on your website that also lack evidence and read like textbook examples of placebo and/or snake-oil marketing? I don’t care how many people like it. If you and they don’t have evidence for its supposed superiority, it does not belong here. And that isn’t me being nasty: that’s our rules.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: josef on 22 January, 2012, 03:02:42 PM
ok - i see you really don't want to try it yourself at all yet demand 'evidence'...
btw - what are you afraid of? that you may actually notice a positive difference?

sorry couldn't resist - never mind that:
but now please help me i am really curious (and i really am not trying to be condescending) - can you elaborate what specifically do you mean by 'evidence' and how do you envision it presented to you?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: kraut on 22 January, 2012, 03:22:55 PM
Quote
Or are you suggesting that hundreds of people from all over the world are all foolish idiots?


Only someone who has not followed the cable, capacitor, pennies on top of speakers, green edged cds and other idiot tweaks in discussions in hi end audio can pose such a question.
We are not only talking hundreds, we are talking tens of thousands of idiots who could hear - unfortunately never in a blinded test - audible differences of all kind of tweaks.

As a manufacturer of a product that claims to have superior sound despite in this case not even measurable differnces I do not think the onus is on me to show this product does what it claims it is doing, it is up to you to show in tests whose methodology is above suspicion and whose results are verifiable that there is an audible difference.
If you cannot do that you are nothing but the proverbial vacuum cleaner salesman who with sordid tricks convinces the housewives of the superiority of his product.
I do not see any probability that your product does what it claims it can do, there is no measurement that demonstrates a difference in bit transmission or a difference in the d/a conversion, your claims are even weaker than the claims by cable manufacturers, who at least have some data regarding the differences in ohms/ft and capacitance to show the probability that audibility might be possible.

After your responses all I can say that you have me not convinced of the non existence of a polish/dutch scam axis.

Quote
ok - i see you really don't want to try it yourself at all yet demand 'evidence'...


I am willing to try if there is a likely hood based by some data that the product might be superior to others. not willing to waste my time on spurious claims.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: tpijag on 22 January, 2012, 03:50:29 PM
Quote
but now please help me i am really curious (and i really am not trying to be condescending) - can you elaborate what specifically do you mean by 'evidence' and how do you envision it presented to you?

Why do you even have to ask this?  Read the bloody T of S and be done with it. Standard protocols. Double blind test whose methodology allows review and supports reliable, valid replication.

Quote
sorry couldn't resist - never mind that

While we take a moment to let Therapists worldwide cringe at that statement, why not  just say what you mean and let is stand on it's own without the backstep. It's rhetorical cuteness does not mask it's passive aggressive root.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bug80 on 22 January, 2012, 03:57:08 PM
Josef, you seem like a decent person. I am sure that you will agree with me that "thousands of people bought this" is not a proof that something works.

These people might HEAR a difference. In fact, I am pretty sure they do, otherwise they would not buy it. But this does not proof that there IS a difference. This is also a widely known fact in the science of audio. It is called the placebo effect. And it is a strong effect!

So the question is: are you willing to take the challenge to *really* test your product using scientific methods?

[edit]
By the way, the fact that people suffer from placebo does not make them idiots. I fooled myself many times. That is why I do blind tests when I want to be sure.
[/edit]
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: kraut on 22 January, 2012, 04:09:52 PM
Quote
By the way, the fact that people suffer from placebo does not make them idiots


No,  what does make them idiots is in persisting that it is not a placebo effect despite the evidence.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: MichaelW on 22 January, 2012, 04:15:15 PM
@josef

I'm not sure if you're a troll, or who you say you are. Hiding behind a nick makes it hard to tell.

On the assumption you are the developer, you really are wasting your time here. Everyone here knows about testimonials from satisfied users, often found in fuel-saver adverts. There is a perfectly simple method for establishing that claims of subjectively experienced sound quality improvement are repeatable and based on real differences in the stimulus: it's known as double-blind testing. Reputable vendors use it to test their products.

If, on the other hand, you are really the developer, but one of the snake oil merchants who thinks it's fun to troll HA, well, you must have an impoverished life.

Oh, and I'm probably old enough to be your father, if it makes a difference.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: josef on 22 January, 2012, 04:35:36 PM
Kraut: Sorry but you seem to be missing the point: it is one thing to bash the product – if you don’t like it for whatever reason (it ‘doesn’t work’, it’s ‘wrong color/taste’, ‘it’s just not your day and you hate whole world’..) that’s your right – nobody stops you from criticizing!

It is, however, something very, very different to accuse someone of being a cheat and a liar: and if you do that then, sorry pal, but as db1989 said ‘the burden of proof is on claimant’…

You want measurements? Kraut, man, top scientist in the world with budgets in millions (billions?) can’t agree whether they measured speed of light correctly or not yet you want two guys in garage to come up with a scientific paper that proves beyond doubt that what happens in PC during music playback can affect it? LOL

And I don’t mean voodoo things but simple, logical, straightforward things like: if playback process is pegged to a single core which is cleared of any other tasks could it affect timeliness of data delivery?

Or, if OS scheduling priorities can be set to favour music playback process as opposed to ‘other’ tasks could it also ‘help’ deliver data to DAC ‘on time’?

Do these really sound so illogical to you?

But ok, ‘measurements’: What would you say if I told you that some people used spectral analyser which did, indeed produce obviously different images between different players playing identical bitstream?

Note: I am not implying ‘better’ or ‘worse’ SQ but a clear measurable difference…

Would that qualify or is methodology not ‘above suspicion’?

Look, once again: I have no desire of convincing you of anything: you go on believing that world is flat as far as I’m concerned - I have better things to do than ‘convince’ anyone of anything… I offer you to test the claim yourself (yeah, blind testing of your own) and if you choose to ignore it that's fine - i really don't care...('you can lead the horse to water you can't make it drink'...)

But if you dare call me a cheat please put forward some evidence of your own or retract the claim…
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: JJZolx on 22 January, 2012, 04:42:21 PM
There is a perfectly simple method for establishing that claims of subjectively experienced sound quality improvement are repeatable and based on real differences in the stimulus: it's known as double-blind testing. Reputable vendors use it to test their products.


Can you name a few who state that they conduct such testing?

I'm just curious, because I have a difficult time believing that many audio hardware or software companies conduct any sort of blind testing or ABXing of their products. Outside of HA, I don't think I've ever seen it discussed or even hinted at in the context of commercial product development.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: tpijag on 22 January, 2012, 04:44:22 PM
Quote
But ok, ‘measurements’: What would you say if I told you that some people used spectral analyser which did, indeed produce obviously different images between different players playing identical bitstream?

Once again just read the bloody T of S. #8 specifically.

Quote
What would you say

Would you please consider dropping hypothetical expressions ? Say it or not.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: josef on 22 January, 2012, 04:44:49 PM
Michaelw: I assure you I am not a troll am indeed the developer – again I respond here not because I care whether somebody likes or not the product – I don’t give a damn, I made the product for my own selfish enjoyment of music and I really don’t have time for this childish bs….

I am here precisely because I am a person of flesh & blood and we creatures don’t take lightly when some ‘virtual nicknames’ think that they can just go around calling people liars without any consequences…
If indeed you are even older than me I’m sure you understand what I mean…

Bug80: yes, of course, sounds interesting – what kind of scientific method do you have in mind?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bug80 on 22 January, 2012, 04:51:14 PM
Bug80: yes, of course, sounds interesting – what kind of scientific method do you have in mind?

Double-blind ABX testing.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: kraut on 22 January, 2012, 04:59:50 PM
Quote
But ok, ‘measurements’: What would you say if I told you that some people used spectral analyser which did, indeed produce obviously different images between different players playing identical bitstream?


please supply sources.

Quote
But if you dare call me a cheat please put forward some evidence of your own or retract the claim…


all I hear from you is a salesman pitch. you still have provided absolutely nothing but talk that there is any veracity to your claims.
There is no reason until you do otherwise to retract my claim that I suspect a polish/dutch axis of scam.
Cable companies used exactly the same line of arguments, and after having tested their claims spending several 100$ only to find out the bogosity of their claims I am not willing to even try any audiophile product without a probable mechanism of why the product could work with supporting data.

You have not done anything of the sort and you arguments as to physical measurements are the same inane bullshit spouted by any type of woo believer, reenforcing only my suspicion as to the type of person we are dealing with.

Quote
Once again just read the bloody T of S. #8 specifically.


Measurements are not proof of audibility, but at  least they show that a difference that might be audible exists.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Brand on 22 January, 2012, 05:04:43 PM
I was just in the middle of RMAA testing my soundcards, so I decided to test JPLAY as well. 

The soundcard I used for testing is an M-Audio 2496, connected with a short cable from its line out to its line in.
That way, I recorded the outputs of Foobar (regular output, not WASAPI or ASIO) and JPLAY to try to spot some differences.
I also ran RMAA tests at 24bit 44.1kHz and at 24bit 96kHz.

The recorded files from the song sample (Sonny Rollins "Oleo") are named A and B. One of these is from Foobar the other from JPLAY. It would be great if someone could tell which is which in a blind test, before I reveal it.
They were recorded with REAPER (ASIO at 24bit, 44.1kHz). I cropped them later to try to get them to the approximately same length, no other processing.

The two recorded files, the original CD rip sample and the RMAA test results are here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?600mz643ye9iuxh (http://www.mediafire.com/?600mz643ye9iuxh)

That JPLAY scored "Very Good" instead of "Excellent" in the 44.1kHz test is just an unlucky coincidence, I think. Looking at the actual numbers it seems like it's all within the margin of error and the imperfections of DAD. Sometimes Foobar scored better at some test, sometimes JPLAY.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: kraut on 22 January, 2012, 05:12:11 PM
Quote
Looking at the actual numbers it seems like it's all within the margin of error and the imperfections of DAD. Sometimes Foobar scored better at some test, sometimes JPLAY.


Meaning the measurements detect nothing but statistical noise?

No ABX listening test seems to be required after that result.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 22 January, 2012, 05:17:35 PM
As [josef is] a manufacturer of a product that claims to have superior sound despite in this case not even measurable differnces I do not think the onus is on me to show this product does what it claims it is doing, it is up to [josef] to show in tests whose methodology is above suspicion and whose results are verifiable that there is an audible difference.
This is what I meant throughout, especially with the usual “burden of proof” bit, although I concede that I probably didn’t state it precisely enough (rather than heavily implying it).

It is up to you to prove that a difference (effect, improvement, etc.) exists—not to us to prove the absence of a difference. Google for Russell’s teapot if you want an in-depth explanation of this. Basically, there isn’t enough time in the universe to disprove every possible false (or possibly false) claim, or to make them, for that matter.

Quote
I am willing to try if there is a likely hood based by some data that the product might be superior to others. not willing to waste my time on spurious claims.
This too.

You want measurements? Kraut, man, top scientist in the world with budgets in millions (billions?) can’t agree whether they measured speed of light correctly or not yet you want two guys in garage to come up with a scientific paper that proves beyond doubt that what happens in PC during music playback can affect it? LOL
If I had a penny for every time I’ve heard/read an irrelevant analogy… You’re not doing yourself any favours with disingenuous quips like this.

Quote
Look, once again: I have no desire of convincing you of anything: you go on believing that world is flat as far as I’m concerned - I have better things to do than ‘convince’ anyone of anything… I offer you to test the claim yourself (yeah, blind testing of your own) and if you choose to ignore it that's fine - i really don't care...('you can lead the horse to water you can't make it drink'...)
See above, and ironic kudos for the flat-Earth bit!

Quote
But if you dare call me a cheat please put forward some evidence of your own or retract the claim…
This isn’t really what’s happening. You have made a claim, and (in line with my second paragraph above) you are being asked to put forward some evidence or retract the claim. Instead, you seem to be side-stepping around this request by transmuting it into allegations of personal insults and thereby portraying yourself as a victim of a barrage of vindictive tomatoes.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: josef on 22 January, 2012, 05:17:39 PM
Kraut:
> please supply sources.

Sure - here’s what some Russian audio enthusiasts did:
http://soundex.ru/index.php?showtopic=3393...play&st=200 (http://soundex.ru/index.php?showtopic=33930&hl=jplay&st=200)
Can you supply your sources wrt ‘axis of scam’ lol? (note: cable company anecdotes  do not count…)

Bug80 – sure, anything you want…
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 22 January, 2012, 05:30:34 PM
Not sure what you mean: If I said to you that thousands of people have downloaded fully functional free trial, tested it (blind or not I have no way of knowing) and hundreds decided to buy would that qualify as ‘proffer’?

Not for sound quality. And as you later claim that this post is NOT about sound quality!, then fine – it is not about sound quality, right?


Or are you suggesting that hundreds of people from all over the world are all foolish idiots?

Oh, are you saying that the number of foolish idiots all over the world is only in the hundreds? 


But to be serious, we agree that your client base statement does not prove anything about the sound, right?



1.   If you think it is ‘normal’ to provide baseless allegations regarding legality of certain product while hiding under a pseudonym then I’m afraid we live in different worlds. In world I live in baseless allegations can and do get prosecuted as defamation.

If you believe in that argument, please, by all means, approach to the police and report it, filing a demand prosecution. Post a link to a PDF copy.


2.   It is not me here who has a credibility issue, sorry pal, you got it all mixed-up.

Well, let the audience listen to your product read your posts, and make up their own minds. This far, you have tried the «I am older than you» argument, the «your argument is invalid because I don't know your name» argument, and then you are accusing us of being uncivilized barbarians who want to lynch you. I am not saying that your product sucks because of this – in fact, the product website does cite a few nice ideas I have wished for – but I cannot help but thinking that the advertising is written with the same pen that attempts to trick me using totally irrelevant arguments in this thread.


It is those who claim or insinuate that product is ‘fake’!
So far, not a single piece of evidence was brought up!

Herein, you have to document any claim that the product makes better sound. The burden of proof is on you, just as much as the burden is on me if I claim that I have divine powers. Users here would not need to try to disprove me, but it might of course be that someone would disassemble my Godware and post some sarcasms ...



If we are indeed frauds, you’re all smart people here so it should be really easy to establish that, right?
As in: ‘this product option claims it does this and that but look – it does not’.

What about:
- This product markets itself by use of someone else's logo, and the trademark holder has confirmed it is without his permission
- It claims to fit in CPU cache without mentioning that the OS provides for no way to keep it residing there
?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: probedb on 22 January, 2012, 05:31:15 PM
Kraut:
> please supply sources.

Sure - here’s what some Russian audio enthusiasts did:
http://soundex.ru/index.php?showtopic=3393...play&st=200 (http://soundex.ru/index.php?showtopic=33930&hl=jplay&st=200)


It's your product and you don't have anything to put forward other than one test on a Russian forum?

Surely the best thing you could possibly do to sell your product is actually back it up with proper testing and publish the results?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Brand on 22 January, 2012, 05:34:12 PM
Quote
Looking at the actual numbers it seems like it's all within the margin of error and the imperfections of DAD. Sometimes Foobar scored better at some test, sometimes JPLAY.


Meaning the measurements detect nothing but statistical noise?

No ABX listening test seems to be required after that result.

From my understanding of RMAA test, yes, it would seem so.

Here are the results for those who don't want to bother downloading the files.
Foobar (second run at 44.1 aka "[MME] 2496 WAV+in Foobar-2.htm"):
Code: [Select]
Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB    +0.02, -0.07    Excellent
Noise level, dB (A)    -100.3    Excellent
Dynamic range, dB (A)    100.8    Excellent
THD, %    0.0007    Excellent
THD + Noise, dB (A)    -89.8    Good
IMD + Noise, %    0.0038    Excellent
Stereo crosstalk, dB    -99.6    Excellent
IMD at 10 kHz, %    0.0036    Excellent

JPLAY (second run at 44.1 aka "[MME] 2496 WAV+in JPLAY Foobar-2.htm"):
Code: [Select]
Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB    +0.02, -0.07    Excellent
Noise level, dB (A)    -100.3    Excellent
Dynamic range, dB (A)    100.7    Excellent
THD, %    0.0007    Excellent
THD + Noise, dB (A)    -89.8    Good
IMD + Noise, %    0.0038    Excellent
Stereo crosstalk, dB    -99.5    Excellent
IMD at 10 kHz, %    0.0036    Excellent

(Sorry, I don't know how to align those columns for a better view.)
These are the two closest results. The biggest difference was in the first run, with a 1.1dB difference in Stereo crosstalk (-99.7 vs -96.8).

So yeah, I'm pretty sure none of these differences are audible.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: kraut on 22 January, 2012, 05:36:44 PM
Kraut:
> please supply sources.

Sure - here’s what some Russian audio enthusiasts did:
http://soundex.ru/index.php?showtopic=3393...play&st=200 (http://soundex.ru/index.php?showtopic=33930&hl=jplay&st=200)
Can you supply your sources wrt ‘axis of scam’ lol? (note: cable company anecdotes  do not count…)

The source of the suspected scam ask for sources? I am slightly confused
Quote
That JPLAY scored "Very Good" instead of "Excellent" in the 44.1kHz test is just an unlucky coincidence, I think. Looking at the actual numbers it seems like it's all within the margin of error and the imperfections of DAD. Sometimes Foobar scored better at some test, sometimes JPLAY.


Those tests (I had a look at the measurements) seem to deflate your claims somewhat...to a large extend.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Brand on 22 January, 2012, 06:03:03 PM
I now cut the A and B samples I posted before and aligned their start points more precisely.

Uploaded here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?8emcg4cspgq43ki (http://www.mediafire.com/?8emcg4cspgq43ki)

As you can see they cancel out pretty nicely when one track is phase inverted. The only signal I see in the VU meter is below -80dB, which is expected based on RMAA tests.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: josef on 22 January, 2012, 06:08:01 PM
Probedb: perhaps you missed this – I am no ‘corporation’ – I am a single guy who does this in his spare time – I don’t have equipment to measure if jitter is 2 or 5 picoseconds nor do I make any such claims, lol…

I am just a guy with some background in mission-critical systems software who figured perhaps some well-known (or less well known) software engineering methods of the trade used in e.g. handling of large-volume of real-time transactions were quick turnaround is of paramount importance could be applied to music playback software as digital is highly sensitive to timing too – that’s all, no more, no less, you can choose to try it for yourself and make up your own mind or you can decide not to try and instead bash me: whichever you do I could care less…

Porcus: yes, I like your recent approach of getting to the specific points…
I am getting tired of endless general tirade….
So, to answer your concerns: we removed all logos when Jim asked us to – looking back perhaps we should not have put them there but we believed it’s ok as two products complement each other and we are big supporters of jriver (several people have switched to jriver from foobar as result of our plugin and many more decided to upgrade to mc 17 thanks to NullOutput feature we recommend being used...) But hey, if they want logo off, who are we to argue? Consequenly we also removed Foobar & iTunes logos just to avoid any further claims of 'evil marketing' lol...

Yes, you are entirely correct there is absolutely no guarantee in OS to keep desired piece of code inside cache at all times (actually at any time) – well spotted! But nobody suggested otherwise: what we do in Hibernate mode (again, I’m afraid I am talking in vain as nobody actually tries the product but you’ll see it if you do) is that we effectively manage to keep code inside cache at all times as we eliminate hundreds of ‘not needed’ threads, remove all few remaining core OS threads from ‘playback core’ and run a dead loop that prevents OS from switching us ‘out’. Crude? You bet. But unfortunately is the only way we could achieve this and it is very, very effective….
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Ouroboros on 22 January, 2012, 06:17:29 PM
and it is very, very effective….
At doing what - keeping the code in the CPU cache? You may well be right, and I have no doubt it's very clever and well engineered, but that's not the question - the question is "is it very effective at making the music sound better?" You aren't being asked to justify how you achieved your design goal of keeping your code in the cache, you aren't even being asked to demonstrate a reduction in jitter when the bitstream is presented to the DAC by your software, you are being asked to demonstrate that you have achieved something audible in double-blind tests.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mudlord on 22 January, 2012, 06:38:37 PM
Plugin is, in fact, using only documented API functions (as required and as is only possible – I don’t have Foobar source code nor do I need it) and it most certainly does not use 'window procedure hooks that modify user interface behaviors' which is specifically prohibited.
All it does, in fact, is simply catch documented & official ‘play’ event and issue ‘pause’ command – how does that ‘violate’ license??? Furthermore, the playback code itself is not even in the plugin but in a completely separate, isolated process that has absolutely nothing to do with Foobar at all…

I guess the root of your confusion is that Foobar API does not, in fact, provide any functions that allow for replacement of its playback engine? I.e. While multiple ‘output plugins’ are available (WASAPI, KS, Null etc) there isn’t actually an API which would allow developers to write their own ‘output plugin’ as that API is undocumented. And that is precisely why we don’t have such a plugin (although it would be more elegant) as using undocumented code would, indeed, breach sdk license….

You may very well ask why don’t we just use ‘dsp plugin’ mechanism ‘like everyone else’?

Indeed - it’s a valid question but I hope you can see why we can’t use that approach: simply because we claim that music played via jplay sounds better!


Oh of course! But I do think breaking seeking and visualizations is enough to cause violations of the license, since you use a completely seperate process to output audio, which violates FB2K's method of operation, since you are meant to ONLY use the interfaces offered. But then since you use pipes, I guess thats justifiable, right? Of course, for sound quality!

Quote
And that, in a nutshell, is why we can’t use ‘dsp plugin’ approach: because we do NOT, I repeat, do NOT, modify music bits in any way! In other words, if we had a dsp plugin that simply passes same bits back to Foobar then THAT would be a scam indeed!

But that’s not what we do and that’s why we HAVE TO stop Foobar playback…


And completely subvert input decoding for those formats EXCEPT on conversion. Because we can't trust FB2K's libflac based decoder, right?

Alas: I must agree with what the mods here said: its ABX test results or die here. Here its about science and objective data, not all claims about "musicality" which I heard before from my own products (which I then directed the end user to do ABX tests, as I do have some shred of honesty).
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: kraut on 22 January, 2012, 07:00:12 PM
Quote
As you can see they cancel out pretty nicely when one track is phase inverted. The only signal I see in the VU meter is below -80dB, which is expected based on RMAA tests.



which for me settles the claim there are hypothetical audible differences.

For anybody else there is still open the audiophile contention that instruments cannot measure what the ear is capable of hearing. A claim that I find bogus considering my earlier life as a labtech and the instruments I used that definitely measured phenomena not perceivable by any human senses,
alpha, beta and gamma radiation as an example.

anyhow, lets not call it a scam (the fear of litigation strikes my heart) but a product whose claim are unsupported by evidence and therefore...what?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mudlord on 22 January, 2012, 07:03:57 PM
anyhow, lets not call it a scam (the fear of litigation strikes my heart) but a product whose claim are unsupported by evidence and therefore...what?


exactly. O.O
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: kraut on 22 January, 2012, 07:18:11 PM
I took the graphical display of the measurements, and aligned them to the same heights on different tabs, so when clicking from one to the next tab any differences can be visualized immediately. And guess what..the only differences show up in the noise level below -100db, and all it did was move those "spikes", actually more "spikelets"  to a slightly higher frequency. As to the rest...there is no there there.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: godrick on 22 January, 2012, 07:33:25 PM
The only impact of the posts today is that instead of a good attorney being needed to successfully press a "derivative works" IP complaint against jplay, I think a mediocre attorney could easily prevail in summary judgement on such a filing in North America or the EU.  Josef the Genius has admitted:
- no change to the bitstream
- no capability to measure jitter
- no knowledge of blind ABX testing or having conducted any such testing to validate his claims
- no certainty that whatever you are doing can remain entirely in the "CPU cache"
- evoking his sales and existence of other companies making similar claims as validation of his claims

Combined with the claims on his website and the trademark/copyright violations already documented, this would be a relatively easy IP win from my experience.  Josef, I hope you have deep pockets to defend any such complaint, since, as you've also admitted, the complaint can be made against you personally since you have not used a corporate entity to make, market and represent your product.  You may find success in deceiving a few people that ABX testing is fringe or not accepted or unique to HA, but you and anyone you try to pass off as an expert witness would be quickly dismantled in depositions on the subject.

Keep posting, Josef - you tighten the noose around your own neck, legally speaking.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: josef on 22 January, 2012, 07:33:58 PM
Ouroboros: perhaps you think it’s so simple but forgive me for being pedantic: remember, first it was insinuated that we somehow ‘manipulate’ bitstream and therefore ‘trick’ people into hearing a difference – thankfully somebody here was not lazy and did a test which proved that insinuation had no merit…
Then we were asked to provide measurements that demonstrate there is a difference in output between different players playing identical bitstream – we did that too…
Then we got accused of making false/impossible claims i.e. code in cache etc: we answered those too…

All this time I keep asking anyone to provide one piece of evidence that software does not do what it specifies – nobody came forward with anything as it turns out that, satirically, pretty much nobody actually tried it… Please note I make no claims of SQ this or that way as that is not allowed here without ‘blind test’! I think that fetish is a silly rule but ok it’s your forum and I try to abide by rules. Therefore: The software has to do things it promises – that is the ONLY ‘claim  ‘  I make! If you have any doubt about that please state it and I will personally demonstrate to you how to measure the effect of each program option! (see below for contact details)

Now, I do happen to believe (as do hundreds of others) that these ‘system & playback optimizations’ have a net positive effect on sq, yes – but no I did not ask all those hundreds of people to send me ABX logs, lol.

If you don’t understand how ridiculous that would look then I’m afraid I can’t help you. Having said that I fully support any initiative you want to come up with: Bug80 offered to do some ‘blind testing’ and I will support him in that – perhaps you want to join? But, again, that is not what this thread is about as it was not me who started it, and no, Sir, I don’t have to prove you anything – those making false personal accusations have to and they have failed, miserably… Remember, we live in democracy ‘innocent until proven guilty’ not the other way round as some here think it should be….

From now on I will only answer specific questions via mail (you can contact me at support@jplay.eu I promise to reply within 24 hours) or if Bug80 or anybody needs any help with their testing which I am looking forward to!
I simply have no time for this circus as my plate is chock full with ton of work that needs to be done this week (yes I do have a day job completely unrelated to this hobby of mine…)
Cheerio and thanks all for your time and passion even if it was a bit misguided at times but ok I guess you have to try everything at least once… (hint: do try it …)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 22 January, 2012, 07:48:06 PM
Ouroboros: perhaps you think it’s so simple but forgive me for being pedantic: remember, first it was insinuated that we somehow ‘manipulate’ bitstream and therefore ‘trick’ people into hearing a difference – thankfully somebody here was not lazy and did a test which proved that insinuation had no merit…
Do you mean that your program does not produce any difference beyond the random variation perfectly predicted by the non-deterministic nature of analogue sound output? Do you really think that can be turned round into evidence in your favour?

Quote
Then we were asked to provide measurements that demonstrate there is a difference in output between different players playing identical bitstream – we did that too…
What, a link to some forum of unknown and quite possibly completely unqualified Russian individuals, saying something most of us can neither understand natively nor be bothered viewing in cod-mode through Google Translate, and which might be nonsense anyway? And even if it weren’t, which is a big if: this one instance, which I think is with some other player (is it?), is supposed to verify that your player creates an audible improvement (since that’s what you claim, despite you dodging it earlier in favour of some nonspecific “difference”) all the time?

Really?

Quote
All this time I keep asking anyone to provide one piece of evidence that software does not do what it specifies – nobody came forward with anything as it turns out that, satirically, pretty much nobody actually tried it… Please note I make no claims of SQ this or that way as that is not allowed here without ‘blind test’! I think that fetish is a silly rule but ok it’s your forum and I try to abide by rules. Therefore: The software has to do things it promises – that is the ONLY ‘claim  ‘  I make! If you have any doubt about that please state it and I will personally demonstrate to you how to measure the effect of each program option! (see below for contact details)
You are claiming a significant (i.e. non-stochastic, etc.) difference. That difference has been used, at least on your site—and by implication here—to argue that your player produces superior sound quality and is worth 99 EUR. Given this and things like the above and the rest of the thread, do you expect people not to demand evidence? That is, after all, the requirement of ToS8, which you claim to “try to abide by” but so far have ignored. And, as myself and another member have said, why exactly are you not jumping at the chance to further promote your own financial interests by providing such evidence?

Quote
If you don’t understand how ridiculous that would look then I’m afraid I can’t help you. Having said that I fully support any initiative you want to come up with: Bug80 offered to do some ‘blind testing’ and I will support him in that – perhaps you want to join?
Good on Bug80, but you were directed to ToS8 numerous times much earlier in the thread, and yet you did not pick up the lead to blind testing on those occasions.

Quote
But, again, that is not what this thread is about as it was not me who started it, and no, Sir, I don’t have to prove you anything – those making false personal accusations have to and they have failed, miserably… Remember, we live in democracy ‘innocent until proven guilty’ not the other way round as some here think it should be….
Oh, so you’re allowed to make pejorative insinuations about people, in this case implying some totalitarian tendency? For what it’s worth, I doubt that’s the case for any of us as individuals, and it’s not really applicable to the running of a forum anyway, but yes: Hydrogenaudio, like any other forum with registration and especially with a set of rules, is something in which membership and all it entails are privileges—subject to the conditions thereof—not rights.

Quote
From now on I will only answer specific questions via mail
Fine, see ya! lol
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: ExUser on 22 January, 2012, 07:59:56 PM
Typical con-man behaviour: when confronted with categorical evidence that his product does not perform as claimed, he retreats to find clientele who are more easily duped.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Brand on 22 January, 2012, 08:32:53 PM
The biggest difference was in the first run, with a 1.1dB difference in Stereo crosstalk (-99.7 vs -96.8).

Oops, should be -99.7 vs -98.6. But Foobar's first and Foobar's second test yielded a 1dB difference there as well, so yeah, analog noise variation, nothing to do with software. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but didn't want to leave that out.

first it was insinuated that we somehow ‘manipulate’ bitstream and therefore ‘trick’ people into hearing a difference – thankfully somebody here was not lazy and did a test which proved that insinuation had no merit…
Then we were asked to provide measurements that demonstrate there is a difference in output between different players playing identical bitstream – we did that too…

So... two opposing pieces of evidence and you don't have a problem with that? Interesting.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: MichaelW on 22 January, 2012, 08:35:12 PM
There is a perfectly simple method for establishing that claims of subjectively experienced sound quality improvement are repeatable and based on real differences in the stimulus: it's known as double-blind testing. Reputable vendors use it to test their products.


Can you name a few who state that they conduct such testing?



I was thinking especially of Harman, whose testing of speakers is described by Sean Olive. Some of the other serious speaker firms at least base their designs on the results of proper testing (I think especially of Canadian firms, but I'm sure there are others). For electronics, I guess there is no need--the measured specs required for good enough are well known.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: krabapple on 22 January, 2012, 09:32:57 PM
Harman is the most famous commercial of DBTs in their audio product research (and their research has been quite influential in the loudspeaker field).  Dunlavy also used them.  In the electronics realm, it's rarely acknowledged by manufacturers -- TAG Mclaren was one company who published blind comparison of their amps vs others.  (They went out of business.)

Of course, LAME development relies heavily on ABX results.

And of course, DBTs are standard in academic research into human audio perception.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: krabapple on 22 January, 2012, 09:36:11 PM
Josef,

I went to the Russian site you linked to.  I don't understand what I'm seeing there, and I can't read Russian so I hope you'll help me out.

I see two spectragrams that appear to show the same thing.  Then two spectragrams below that that show different things. 

What is this supposed to demonstrate?  What exactly was being measured there?  If I understand what you wrote, one or more of these is supposed to
show a different spectral output from two bit-identical sources.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bug80 on 23 January, 2012, 01:25:22 AM
It seems thar everyone missed the fact that jozef agreed to perform double-blind testing a couple of posts ago. So, how can we help him to set up a test?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Emon on 23 January, 2012, 02:33:44 AM
I am just a guy with some background in mission-critical systems software who figured perhaps some well-known (or less well known) software engineering methods


As a software engineer both professionally and personally for the majority of the time I've been alive, there is no way you could be a software engineer and believe the retarded claims you make on your site. Especially the bit about "fitting in the cache." You are either full of shit or just a shitty engineer.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: probedb on 23 January, 2012, 03:44:39 AM
Probedb: perhaps you missed this – I am no ‘corporation’ – I am a single guy who does this in his spare time – I don’t have equipment to measure if jitter is 2 or 5 picoseconds nor do I make any such claims, lol…

I am just a guy with some background in mission-critical systems software who figured perhaps some well-known (or less well known) software engineering methods of the trade used in e.g. handling of large-volume of real-time transactions were quick turnaround is of paramount importance could be applied to music playback software as digital is highly sensitive to timing too – that’s all, no more, no less, you can choose to try it for yourself and make up your own mind or you can decide not to try and instead bash me: whichever you do I could care less…


I'm sorry but what difference does who you are make to this at all? And really, adding "lol" makes you sound like a 12 year old.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 23 January, 2012, 04:36:17 AM
Software homeopathy.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Nessuno on 23 January, 2012, 05:10:08 AM
It seems thar everyone missed the fact that jozef agreed to perform double-blind testing a couple of posts ago. So, how can we help him to set up a test?


According to  what is written on JPlay website about the way it operates, maybe different testing should be performed at different system workloads.

By the way: I cannot participate in any test as I don't use MS Windows at home, but as a hint, I'd also investigate on how installing JPlay affect the stability of the underlying OS. I suspect  that trying to force a modern general purpose system to act as a embedded microcontroller is something that in the long terms does more harm than good (even to SQ)...
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bug80 on 23 January, 2012, 05:16:43 AM
josef, you asked for specifics regarding the ABX testing.

I'd suggest that you start reading about ABX testing here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test)

and download the ABX plugin for Foobar2k: http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx (http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx)

Next, it is probably best if you make two recordings of a particular song: one with and one without Jplay. The recordings should have the same amplitude and should be sample aligned, obviously.

You can then ABX both recordings using the foobar plugin. You can also invite other people to do the test.

This would be a start. Maybe someone else has better ideas?

Good luck!
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: spoon on 23 January, 2012, 06:59:55 AM
Lets just put some perspective on all this talk of CPU caching...1 gigahertz = 1 000 000 KHz, that is right the core speed of modern CPUs is 1 million times faster than a 3KHz signal, if that does not make people wake up and start asking questions nothing will, as though a CPU is held back if the program is not in CPU cache, not to mention to keep code in a cpu cache with out invalidation is neigh on impossible on a Windows based system.

Playback of 44KHz might have been challenging 20 years ago, it is no longer so.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: spoon on 23 January, 2012, 07:07:39 AM
If people are so concerned about jitter and buffers, save your money that you would have spent on software and get an external USB DAC which has a buffer and is Asynchronous, then you can be sure the DAC clock is not effected by anything except relativity (which might be too much even for some...) and the buffer ensures that the million times faster PC can supply data on time.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 23 January, 2012, 07:50:48 AM
I am just a guy with some background in mission-critical systems software who figured perhaps some well-known (or less well known) software engineering methods
As a software engineer both professionally and personally for the majority of the time I've been alive, there is no way you could be a software engineer and believe the retarded claims you make on your site. Especially the bit about "fitting in the cache." You are either full of shit or just a shitty engineer.
I like a well-placed swear as much as the next person, but it is totally unnecessary in this context, and it brings you ever closer to TOS #2.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: godrick on 23 January, 2012, 09:31:11 AM
It seems thar everyone missed the fact that jozef agreed to perform double-blind testing a couple of posts ago. So, how can we help him to set up a test?


According to  what is written on JPlay website about the way it operates, maybe different testing should be performed at different system workloads.

By the way: I cannot participate in any test as I don't use MS Windows at home, but as a hint, I'd also investigate on how installing JPlay affect the stability of the underlying OS. I suspect  that trying to force a modern general purpose system to act as a embedded microcontroller is something that in the long terms does more harm than good (even to SQ)...


I suspect that his request was a passive-agressive tactic rather than genuine, but hoping that he rises to the occasion and proves such thoughts wrong, some other relevant links to design and conduct a valid test and draw appropriate conclusions:

the entire forum on listening tests:  http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=40 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=40)
the pinned thread on links to listening tests:  http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=82777 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=82777)
the pinned thread on what is a blind ABX test: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=16295 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=16295)
the scientific method  introduction: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method)
design of experiments introduction:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_experiments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_experiments)
statistics introduction  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics)
statistics discussions http://www.talkstats.com/forumdisplay.php/2-Statistics (http://www.talkstats.com/forumdisplay.php/2-Statistics)

Given that much of this is first introduced in high school and repeatedly addressed in university engineering and science programs throughout the world, one must doubt either his claimed credentials or his competency.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: kraut on 23 January, 2012, 11:22:32 AM
I see that the dbpa developer is participating. Consider the fact what value for money dbpa delivers (38$) - which I have tried, found it to be very good but was not willing to pay in light of the existence of foobar, sorry, spoon- the 99 Euro (about 130 in real money) for what? seems outrageous and can only be justified by the existence of enough idiots out there willing to buy what?:  a tweak that promises - again - audioheaven, as usually again without any evidence.

It is the typical audiophile(phool) gambit all over again, and I suggest he channels his product through machina dynamica. It will fit right in with their program.

To bring some  hilarity to the subject:

Quote
Our New Product!!The Quantum Temple Bell by Machina Dynamica, a unique room enhancement device for sound and video. The Quantum Temple Bell is a treated brass Tibetan hand bell that operates quantum mechanically to improve the performance of all audio and video systems. The bell is rung several times in each "strategic location" around the room, especially prior to critical listening. The effects of the Quantum Temple Bell are long lasting, at least several weeks. It is recommended that the Quantum Temple Bell ringing be performed about once a month for optimum results. Machina Dynamica provides instructions for how to use the Quantum Temple Bell with purchase. Only $129.
http://www.machinadynamica.com/ (http://www.machinadynamica.com/)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: JimH on 23 January, 2012, 12:15:46 PM
If people are so concerned about jitter and buffers, save your money that you would have spent on software and get an external USB DAC which has a buffer and is Asynchronous, then you can be sure the DAC clock is not effected by anything except relativity (which might be too much even for some...) and the buffer ensures that the million times faster PC can supply data on time.

Totally agree with this.  The concern about timing of bits on the PC  / player side is irrelevant in any case where the receiving device has a buffer and has its own clock.  The PC can fill this buffer irregularly, so long as the buffer never runs dry. 

This is in fact, the way drivers like WASAPI work.  The buffer is filled at intervals.  If the device couldn't find bits in the buffer when it needed them, the music would never sound like music.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Gecko on 23 January, 2012, 01:45:16 PM
While I wholeheartedly agree with spoon and JimH, the jplay page states this in the FAQ:

Quote
6 My DAC is buffering data so I’m really not concerned with PC keeping a perfect timing.
You should be. Simple truth is that the less processing the DAC needs to do, the better the results. Again, if you are doubtful, JPLAY is FREE to try! Trust only your own ears!


I wonder what this "less processing" is. Does the DAC turn off its buffer handler when it detects a jplay bitstream? Do DACs connected using the horrible, horrible USB protocol benefit as well (assuming spdif to be the preferred audiophile solution, but what do I know)?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 23 January, 2012, 01:58:41 PM
I see that the dbpa developer is participating. Consider the fact what value for money dbpa delivers (38$) - which I have tried, found it to be very good but was not willing to pay in light of the existence of foobar, sorry, spoon- the 99 Euro (about 130 in real money) for what?


Remember that not everyone is like you. There are people who pay as little as possible, and there are people who pay more. Myself I have paid for dBpoweramp (Reference), I have supported a couple of freeware applications I use often, and if this product could indeed ensure playback with full control over every MS-Windows annoyance which makes my home computer stutter under load and my old work-computer (now replaced, thank you) stop hissing upon scroll, then ¥€$!, it would be worth at least a few GBP.

But then on the other hand, a company that comes with a «you can only install the applications we have approved» clause, is sure as hell not getting my money. Maybe I'm a bit irrational, but it would hurt a bit to actually pay for being treated like that – BTW, when Microsoft tried to pull some «only this OS on this computer» license on me, it took me years until I bought a MS-Windows-preinstalled computer again.


Irrational? Well, Josef may or may not use that word to explain why I am not shedding out Pesetas in his direction.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: JJZolx on 23 January, 2012, 03:23:29 PM
If people are so concerned about jitter and buffers, save your money that you would have spent on software and get an external USB DAC which has a buffer and is Asynchronous, then you can be sure the DAC clock is not effected by anything except relativity (which might be too much even for some...) and the buffer ensures that the million times faster PC can supply data on time.


I think you'd find that the overwhelming majority of purchasers of JPLAY, Pure Music and Amarra _are_ using an external USB DAC.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: ExUser on 23 January, 2012, 04:03:09 PM
While we're busy implying unproven things like USB DACs providing superior performance to internal ones, I'd figure that SPDIF-optical would be even better because there's zero electrical coupling occurring. The only noise that can be transmitted is via jitter in the light-stream.

Note that there is no evidence that either USB DACs or SPDIF DACs necessarily show improved performance; I'm merely being vaguely facetious.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: MichaelW on 23 January, 2012, 04:13:24 PM
As I understand it, the claim for Jplay, and similar programs, is that they disable as much as possible of the computer's activity so that the music data is unimpeded in its stately transit.

Couldn't we take this a stage further, and develop a device that, by design, does nothing but process music data? We could have it disconnected from the net, and with only the most rudimentary input and output devices, too.

Oh, I think it's called a PMP. You can get quite a good one for 99 Euros, I think.

Meanwhile, in view of the slightly veiled claims, let me mention the great IPO of 1720: a company "for carrying on an undertaking of great advantage, but nobody to know what it is."
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 23 January, 2012, 04:18:50 PM
SPDIF-optical


Computers have onboard some possibly noisy PSU, and if in addition there is bad ground ... anyone else who have seen 'ripples' in the picture on old TVs when a certain electrical component switched on?

Unfortunately, you risk getting precisely the same thing through the mains. But you might rid yourself of a ground loop.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: spoon on 23 January, 2012, 04:21:20 PM
External DACs can also employ electrical isolation on board (where as the power is drawn from USB for one side, and external power-powers the other side of isolation), SPDIF is a point of contention also around jitter (not one I subscribe to as buffers can remove jitter), I2C has a clock with the signal.

I think the market for laptop dacs is many times larger than desktop PCs these days, saying that on board audio has come on leaps and bounds over the decade.

Quote
Couldn't we take this a stage further, and develop a device that, by design, does nothing but process music data?


Yes and one which is isolated from the mains, uses flash memory, not HDDs, I think this device of the future is called an ipod touch
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: godrick on 23 January, 2012, 08:22:52 PM
SPDIF-optical


Computers have onboard some possibly noisy PSU, and if in addition there is bad ground ... anyone else who have seen 'ripples' in the picture on old TVs when a certain electrical component switched on?

Unfortunately, you risk getting precisely the same thing through the mains. But you might rid yourself of a ground loop.



I know you mean well and have no scam in mind, so I bear no anger as I point out that deflections in the electron beam as used by old TVs as a result of electromagnetic interference (EMI) has little to no relevance to how power supplies and EMI impact modern digital circuits.  Its just an fact that binary switching in today's integrated circuits is incredibly immune to EMI (by design, not a coincidence) - if the EMI doesn't cause a power rail to collapse, then there is no impact at all, and even if a power rail collapses for a given clock cycle, if this collapse doesn't persist for many, many clock cycles, then human perception is ecxtremely unlikely to detect any impact.  In other words, if interference causes a raggedly 1 or a raggedly 0, but the circuit still sees these as a 1 or 0 respectively, then there is no impact from interference.  Poorly designed circuits can latch up or enter states from which a circuit cannot quickly recover, but that's an indication of poor design that is easily avoided.  In addition to the inherent immunity of binary switching, integrated circuits can be easily shielded with a very small amount of metal.  Shielding PCB traces is basically unnecessary because of the relatively high currents such traces carry.  Since I've sweated these details for space applications and EMP (that means nbomb) situations, I'm confident in my assessment.

The ugly truth (at least as far as scammers look at things) is that digital processing makes very high quality audio and video a relatively easy and cheap thing to accomplish these days from a hardware perspective, and nothing particularly fancy is required from software to take advantage of that.  But software and support to enable ease-of-use for an incredibly diverse user environment is challenging!

In that light, GUIs, things that help with metadata and support are my key criteria in what applications I use, and while I use Foobar2000 for computer audio playback I gladly pay for applications that are the best for my needs, and why I gladly pay for dBpoweramp (love the GUI, metadata features and support) and JRiver (great audio and video for home theater in one package and great support).  I am especially excited in the digital room correction direction that JRiver is exploring!

It's hard to remain angry for long with scammers when I can spend my time on better things like how to fiddle with my room acoustics, a calibrated mike, REW and the new JRiver convolver.  Wait, maybe if I get that Tibetan bell.....
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 24 January, 2012, 04:44:23 AM
Godrick: We are sort of digressing now, so let me be a bit brief not to ... derail (pardon the pun) the discussion too much.  But although I essentially agree with the 'digital processing is easy' argument (and that the €99 digital mumbo-jumbo is based on nonsensicalities), playback is still analogue signal processing, and a 'digital' device which is electrically connected to a DAC, might interfere with the analogue part (which a DAC by definition has!) even though the digital signal is easily cleaned.

Just to stay brief: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....mp;#entry735838 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=85509&st=25&p=735838&#entry735838) , and the replies I got – that was a Dell off-the-shelf business line desktop.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: vrapp on 24 January, 2012, 10:00:47 AM
I'm interested, how a playback engine, which is, by definition, software, can get into CPU cache? OK, if it's small as CPU cache is (but then, which one, and on which CPU's?), but how can you load it directly to CPU cache? Or I misunderstood something?


The idea is that as long as CPU executes this program, it will naturally try to keep it in the cache, because that's what the cache is for; since program's size is less than the cache's size, it will fit completely. So as long as the program runs, it will hopefully run 100% from CPU cache, which means that (1) CPU's access to various parts of program's code will be several times faster (2) RAM chips will be used less intensively, so they will last longer.

(I'm not saying that this is valid or makes any sense - just explaining the merit of the claim)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: ExUser on 24 January, 2012, 10:05:27 AM
Chances are pretty good that the program is going to be unloaded from the cache on the first context-switch, anyhow. Worrying about the cache in multi-threaded situations (ie. all modern operating systems) is asinine. That's a computer's job.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 24 January, 2012, 01:37:34 PM
The idea is that as long as CPU executes this program, it will naturally try to keep it in the cache, because that's what the cache is for; since program's size is less than the cache's size, it will fit completely. So as long as the program runs, it will hopefully run 100% from CPU cache, which means that (1) CPU's access to various parts of program's code will be several times faster (2) RAM chips will be used less intensively, so they will last longer.

I already noticed in the discussion about TAS article 2 people were joining to enlighten us with explaning the theories behind such software or claims. There it was wav sounds worse as wav.
People that have a bit of knowledge follow the findings of such a vendor and get some fuzzy feeling after creating some self-praise in being able to follow the vendors logic. This gives some comfort and things must be better of cause.
This is exactly what these products try to do, seeding some simple logic that impresses the ones that know nothing and convince the ones that just know a bit
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bug80 on 25 January, 2012, 08:08:34 AM
jozef, did you perform some testing yet? I am curious.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: josef on 25 January, 2012, 03:58:56 PM
bug80: pls check your mail
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: testyou on 25 January, 2012, 04:01:29 PM
He is not going to perform blind tests.
He knows that he is selling a placebo.

Edit:  Josef!  Hey buddy!  Welcome back lol
        Can you send it to me pls
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 25 January, 2012, 04:05:00 PM
He can publicly post for all to read the results of the test, his questions about or problems with its methodology, or his attempts to wriggle out of the entire thing—rather than confining whatever discussion there is to private messaging with one user—or face further unceasing and justified scepticism by said readers.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: icstm on 26 January, 2012, 03:58:59 PM
hi guys,
Just to let you know that I have found this thread very interesting. I have signed up just to let you know that I am glad that someone has taken the time to test the claims of JPlay and I look forward to the results.

I looks like you have a good forum here that concentrates on the technical concepts and the facts rather than just the tit for tat that you see on some other places.

Finally, just a shout out to jimH for pointing me in this direction from AVF, another good site
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: JimH on 09 February, 2012, 10:44:31 AM
Cross posting a jplay thread on the computeraudiophile forum.  I finally had to say something last night.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/...#comment-127258 (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/JPlay-Player-Windows#comment-127258)

I used the M word.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 09 February, 2012, 11:01:08 AM
He can publicly post for all to read the results of the test, his questions about or problems with its methodology, or his attempts to wriggle out of the entire thing—rather than confining whatever discussion there is to private messaging with one user—or face further unceasing and justified scepticism by said readers.


The kinds of alleged problems that this product purports to solve are in fact related to measurable quantities such as jitter, modulation distortion, phase and amplitude errors, etc. Making sensitive measurements of these properties is relatively simple in this day and age, all you need is a PC with a good audio interface, and some freeware such as the Audio Rightmark program.

While we can quibble over audible thresholds, the simple existence of improved or at least changed performance is relatively easy to discern. I don't see any evidence of anybody actually trying to do this.

Have I missed something?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 09 February, 2012, 11:17:10 AM
No, you didn´t miss something. On diyaudio there is another jplay thread even linking to our one here. Seems like most prefer jplay over cplay, JRiver Media Center and foobar in standalone mode. They even better jplay with fidelizer.
None of cause comes to the idea to measure the difference that imho even can be done with a good soundcard and some free software like AudioDiffmaker. Hello Phil if you can read this

Edit: Added link: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/20...ware-jplay.html (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/204256-new-audio-player-software-jplay.html)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: andy o on 09 February, 2012, 04:36:00 PM
I just got offered to sell a $2700 vacuum cleaner (after they give you back $1000 for your old vacuum, so "real" price is $3700!) in a rather ingenious pyramid scheme. There are lots of psychic businesses around here too, not to mention acupuncturists, chiropractors, herbalists, etc. (I live in L.A.) Goes to show, there is no shortage of good business opportunity if you're just willing to put your scruples on the side. I think the greatest con these people pull is not selling the stuff itself, but making the conned people vouch for them and defend them so strongly.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Kujibo on 09 February, 2012, 06:04:09 PM
I just spent way too much time reading that thread on computeraudiophile and my head is close to exploding. I must commit to myself never to step outside of HA again on topics such as this.

I can understand non-technical audiophile people getting wrapped up in this stuff. What I find frustrating is that Josef is a software developer and his response to logical statements debunking his theories. He'll present all sorts of theories on why TLB thrashing or using non-cache memory, low latency, etc. from within a user land Windows app can affect the exact time a sample is delivered to a DAC and that this is very important as it will have a direct effect on the jitter. People will explain that the app has no control over this as it's the OS, drivers, and external hardware that control the final delivery rate. Then he'll counter with "of course that's how it works, and indeed it shouldn't matter when the app delivers the data, but... it just sounds better!". Any time he gets called on technical BS he'll just back peddle to the magical audiophile junk. I have to think he is either deluded or is trying to purposely pull a scam. It really bothers me to see the non-technical people sucked into this technical BS who don't know any better. It's one thing when it's about gold plated USB cables but this hits close to home as I've spent the last 20 years of my professional life doing nothing but developing code that produces and delivers digital audio out all sorts of devices.

Anyway, rant off, gotta get my blood pressure under control.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 09 February, 2012, 06:16:24 PM
This all comes down to an all-time running gag:
"You can´t measure these things, you have to listen, it is that obvious you need no DBT, so many people that hear this can´t be wrong!"
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 09 February, 2012, 06:40:01 PM
It really bothers me to see the non-technical people sucked into this technical BS who don't know any better.


If there are people out there that describe numbers as "visual" (I'm assuming by virtue of being printable and thus seen...) who can possibly help them?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 10 February, 2012, 05:50:25 AM
I just got offered to sell a $2700 vacuum cleaner (after they give you back $1000 for your old vacuum


*reading twice*

Ah, it was not a vacuum tube cleaner? Not interested then.


 
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 10 February, 2012, 07:37:11 AM
I just spent way too much time reading that thread on computeraudiophile and my head is close to exploding. I must commit to myself never to step outside of HA again on topics such as this.

I can understand non-technical audiophile people getting wrapped up in this stuff. What I find frustrating is that Josef is a software developer and his response to logical statements debunking his theories. He'll present all sorts of theories on why TLB thrashing or using non-cache memory, low latency, etc. from within a user land Windows app can affect the exact time a sample is delivered to a DAC and that this is very important as it will have a direct effect on the jitter. People will explain that the app has no control over this as it's the OS, drivers, and external hardware that control the final delivery rate. Then he'll counter with "of course that's how it works, and indeed it shouldn't matter when the app delivers the data, but... it just sounds better!". Any time he gets called on technical BS he'll just back peddle to the magical audiophile junk. I have to think he is either deluded or is trying to purposely pull a scam. It really bothers me to see the non-technical people sucked into this technical BS who don't know any better. It's one thing when it's about gold plated USB cables but this hits close to home as I've spent the last 20 years of my professional life doing nothing but developing code that produces and delivers digital audio out all sorts of devices.

Anyway, rant off, gotta get my blood pressure under control.


Quote
This all comes down to an all-time running gag:
"You can´t measure these things, you have to listen, it is that obvious you need no DBT, so many people that hear this can´t be wrong!"


Well guys you have your heads screwed on tight and I love it, but the question remains: "What are we going to do to try to help these poor souls with their pain, denial and false beliefs?"

You do of course realize that being locked into this non-productive use of their time and talents is hurting them and all of the poor souls that they influence. <sigh>
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: icstm on 10 February, 2012, 09:41:58 AM
I just spent way too much time reading that thread on computeraudiophile and my head is close to exploding. I must commit to myself never to step outside of HA again on topics such as this.

I can understand non-technical audiophile people getting wrapped up in this stuff. What I find frustrating is that Josef is a software developer and his response to logical statements debunking his theories. He'll present all sorts of theories on why TLB thrashing or using non-cache memory, low latency, etc. from within a user land Windows app can affect the exact time a sample is delivered to a DAC and that this is very important as it will have a direct effect on the jitter. People will explain that the app has no control over this as it's the OS, drivers, and external hardware that control the final delivery rate. Then he'll counter with "of course that's how it works, and indeed it shouldn't matter when the app delivers the data, but... it just sounds better!". Any time he gets called on technical BS he'll just back peddle to the magical audiophile junk. I have to think he is either deluded or is trying to purposely pull a scam. It really bothers me to see the non-technical people sucked into this technical BS who don't know any better. It's one thing when it's about gold plated USB cables but this hits close to home as I've spent the last 20 years of my professional life doing nothing but developing code that produces and delivers digital audio out all sorts of devices.

Anyway, rant off, gotta get my blood pressure under control.

I signed up here after reading that thread at the start of the year. I had the same issue as you. Most of it makes my blood boil!
What proberly does not help is the standard windows mixer does not maintain bit-perfect streams, so you need to look at WASAPI and the like. In other words your PC can do damage to your audio stream which leaves room for these people to offer "fixes" whether they do fix anything is beside the point in most cases.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: icstm on 10 February, 2012, 09:46:42 AM
It really bothers me to see the non-technical people sucked into this technical BS who don't know any better.


If there are people out there that describe numbers as "visual" (I'm assuming by virtue of being printable and thus seen...) who can possibly help them?

That probably points more to his NLP and how he thinks.

What worries me more is that he is not clear on what elements of the processing sequence are time critical (ie syncronous) and what is not.
Coverting files into PCM is not time critical, providing that PCM stream to a PLL DAC is. He software seems to be working on the former, which is of no help.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: hugson on 10 February, 2012, 10:19:40 AM
Wow! I've just spent quite some time reading this entire thread and I'm simply staggered! My summary is that most of the messages in this thread are composed by self-professed sound engineers who are mightily free with their gratuitous insults, and whose opinions are almost never supported by direct personal experience (i.e. actually going to the trouble of listening to jplay).

Let me define my position quite clearly. I am probably of around the same age as Josef, and have long been interested in so-called hi-fi. I currently own, among other things, a Krell KSA-50 amplifier, a pair of Stax Lambda ear-speakers, and a Linn-Sonndek turntable. My preferred speakers are Quad Electrostatics (I used to own stacked Quads, which literally gave me RSI when erecting them), though, sadly, I no longer have enough space to enjoy them.

When I first encountered jplay, I was just as sceptical as most of you. I even contributed to the jplay forum, asking what all the fuss was about as I was unable to discern any differences between Foobar and jplay. It is instructive to note that none of the responses I received in the jplay forum were rude, or offensive, or condescending (which is somewhat different to my experiences here).

For all sorts of reasons, it was then time to rebuild my Windows 7 OS, and, at the same time, invest in a powered USB hub because I was obviously running out of power in my then extant setup. I also enabled large page support, and I believe this has also had a considerable effect.

Once that unpleasant job was complete, I allocated myself some serious listening time and started comparing jplay to jriver and foobar.
That testing really didn't take long, as it was immediately obvious to me that jplay represented a quantum leap forward in anything I had ever heard on a computer. I enlisted the help of a friend, and we did some blind tests together. Nothing scientific, we weren't measuring dbs or noise levels or anything else - we were simply listening to the music (predominantly classical, flac format, 16-bit 44k and 24-bit 96k - which is the best quality output my USB DAC can handle). In 100% of the samples we tested, we always successfully identified the jplay sound, and always found it to be the most appealing.

It appears to me that most of the participants in this forum have not actually bothered to try jplay out for themselves, something that is relatively easy to do, especially with an earlier version of jplay since the current one now uses a Windows service). It also seems to me that most are writing about audio as something to be scientifically measured - I can hardly find a reference to someone enjoying the actual music they're listening to.

I've been a professional software developer since 1972. I can honestly say that the technical support I have received from both Josef (the author of jplay) and his partner Marcin has, for me, rarely been exceeded, both in terms of responsiveness and quality of response. I mention this simply to state that I am as certain as I possibly can be that neither Josef not Marcin is a fraudster, since fraudsters are not known for the provision of outstanding service after the money has been paid.

As someone said recently on a jplay forum:
  "...but hell, I'd rather just listen to music than spend my time testing."
This comment speaks of an attitude to listening that is very different to what seems to prevail here.

Shame on you.

For your information, I have no relationship with either Josef or Marcin other than the customer-developer one. I expect, and gain, no advantage, pecuniary or otherwise, by speaking out here in this way.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: andy o on 10 February, 2012, 11:20:36 AM
Paragraph 1, righteous indignation. Check.

Paragraph 2, Argument from having spent a lot of money. Check.

Paragraph 3, "I used to be like you", with a side of concern trolling. Check.

Paragraphs 4 and 5, personal anecdote with a TOS8 cherry on top. Check.

Paragraph 6, "don't criticize unless you have tried it yourself". Check.

Paragraph 7, argumentum ad verecundiam. Check.

Paragraph 8, straw man. Check.

Paragraph 9, "I look down on you." Check.

Paragraph 10, irrelevancy. Check.

Going for the record in fallacy density?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: andy o on 10 February, 2012, 11:29:25 AM
One thing that I think deserves clarification.
I am as certain as I possibly can be that neither Josef not Marcin is a fraudster, since fraudsters are not known for the provision of outstanding service after the money has been paid.

Not to the people they scam whom they want coming back and doing word-of-mouth. In fact, "service" is ALL some fraudsters offer. Examples, all kinds of "alt-med" kooks like homeopaths and chiropractors, psychics, etc. One of the most frequent complaints against MDs and in favor of alt-med practitioners is that the doctors are "cold" or "condescending", while alt-med guys are warm, friendly and "pay attention". Effectiveness against illness is secondary to these people I guess.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: hugson on 10 February, 2012, 11:34:40 AM
I have realized that this forum lacks a good moderator who can take action against those who are abusive (words like fraudster spring to mind).
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Ouroboros on 10 February, 2012, 12:28:29 PM
Hugson, I'm sorry, but I think you are mistaken. The attitude here is definitely "I'd rather just listen to music than spend my time testing", until someone makes unsubstantiated claims along the lines of "my listening method/equipment produces better sounds than yours". At that point there is a very reasonable expectation that the claimant provides some evidence to back up his/her claim. That evidence should very definitely not be measurements of dBs or noise levels, but should be double blind listening tests. The emphasis is absolutely on what you can hear, not what you can measure.

In passing, I would infer from some of your phrasing that you seem to believe that double blind tests aren't scientific, whereas measuring electrical signals is scientific. This is completely false.

I can't see where anyone has said that Jplay isn't well written or well supported, or that it doesn't work well, or is badly behaved. The criticisms are:
- that the problem it is designed to solve (which I believe you could reasonably summarise as changes in sound due to jitter in sample arrival time at the DAC due to task switching in the CPU) is one that you would expect the buffer in the DAC to handle. In extreme cases, if the buffer underflows or overflows you might expect this to manifest itself as drop-outs or spikes, which should show up very easily in a double blind test.
- that, regardless of the cause, its effect on the audible output of a PC hasn't been proven with any published double blind test results.

It's the second point that is the real problem. Just because I (or anyone else) can't see logically why sample jitter due to CPU utilisation might be a problem doesn't mean that it isn't. However, instead of trying to win the argument about why it might be, just show me via double blind ABX tests that you can hear the difference, and describe your test set-up so I can repeat the tests if I wish. The problem is that the Jplay team hasn't really addressed either point - they haven't demonstrated the existence of the underlying cause, and haven't presented evidence that you can hear a difference.

As to whether the Jplay team is setting out to mislead by selling something to fix a problem they know doesn't exist (which is probably fraud in most jurisdictions), or is selling something that solves a problem they believe exists but can't prove (which is the audio equivalent of believing in alien abductions, but probably isn't fraud), is something only they can answer. I do agree with you that we ought not to draw conclusions either way, until the test results have been analysed. Unfortunately, the longer this goes on without test results, the more people will believe that the former is true, even though logically the latter might be just as true, and they might simply be refusing to perform tests so as not to upset their beliefs.

Oh, and sorry to be pedantic, but it's "different from", not "different to".
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 10 February, 2012, 01:04:25 PM
I enlisted the help of a friend, and we did some blind tests together. Nothing scientific, we weren't measuring dbs or noise levels or anything else - we were simply listening to the music (predominantly classical, flac format, 16-bit 44k and 24-bit 96k - which is the best quality output my USB DAC can handle). In 100% of the samples we tested, we always successfully identified the jplay sound, and always found it to be the most appealing.


Well, that is in fact fairly scientific.

What you must do now is provide the details of the experimental setup as exactly as you can, and then I'm sure people here will attempt to reproduce your results, or comment on the experiment itself.

Quote
As someone said recently on a jplay forum:
"...but hell, I'd rather just listen to music than spend my time testing."
This comment speaks of an attitude to listening that is very different to what seems to prevail here.


I'm sorry you feel that way. I, personally, would much rather listen to music than spend time incessantly tinkering with my audio stack; behaviour that is typical of those audiophiles who claim that every tiny insignificant change is "night and day" or "immediately obvious". Worst case, the fruitless tinkering becomes an expensive hobby, when a fraction of the money can deliver the exact same aural experience and the leftover money can be spent on good music and concerts tickets of your favourite artists.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: smok3 on 10 February, 2012, 02:27:35 PM
I can honestly say that the technical support I have received from both Josef (the author of jplay) and his partner Marcin has, for me, rarely been exceeded, both in terms of responsiveness and quality of response.


What kind of technical issues did you have?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: hlloyge on 10 February, 2012, 05:18:16 PM
It appears to me that most of the participants in this forum have not actually bothered to try jplay out for themselves, something that is relatively easy to do, especially with an earlier version of jplay since the current one now uses a Windows service). It also seems to me that most are writing about audio as something to be scientifically measured - I can hardly find a reference to someone enjoying the actual music they're listening to.


There is just one problem - and that is that most of the participants of this forum understands how computer audio works, or at least have a good idea about it. Let me clear things up a bit: every decoder, when decoding audio, runs from CPU cache. It has to, because CPU must execute it. I trust foobar's developers, who doesn't sell their software more than someone who sells their software not to touch the decoded stream in any way; the fact that you were able to recognize in blind test 100% decoded stream from jplay tells me that jplay does something to that stream, not outputting it as it should. And that is because I understand how computer audio works. You see, I am not programmer or something like that, I am computer tech, and my job involves knowing such things.

So, without any doubts I don't trust your results because I don't know how healthy is your hearing (or your friend's), is it limited to some lower frequency which makes you more sensitive to some possible artifacts, and of course, you haven't made double blind test. I have only your word for it, and frankly, that really isn't much.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: hugson on 10 February, 2012, 09:16:21 PM
Thank you for one of the better posts in this forum.
In passing, I would infer from some of your phrasing that you seem to believe that double blind tests aren't scientific, whereas measuring electrical signals is scientific. This is completely false.

No, not at all; I don't know enough about audio technology to make such a claim. If you inferred that from my text, then that part of my text was badly written. Please tell me what the differences are between the tests I and my friend carried out informally and a double blind test, and how does one publish the results of such a test, given that no-one else in the world has my particular hardware and software configuration?
I infer from what you and others write about double blind tests that you believe any differences experienced while listening (subjective) can be determined by measurable results (objective) from a double blind test. I wonder if that is really true? Let me provide an example of something I have experienced on serveral occasions.
Suppose I listen to music sample A on day 1 using equipment X, and enjoy it very much. I can then listen again to music sample A on day 2 using equipment X, and not enjoy it at all. The only thing that has apparently changed from one listen to the next is me - my mood is different, perhaps I'm tired or stressed, etc. Now I'm sure this can't be measured in any double blind test. Yet I am integral to the success or otherwise of my lisening tests. As someone else has written in this forum,
  So, without any doubts I don't trust your results because I don't know how healthy is your hearing (or your friend's), is it limited to some
  lower frequency which makes you more sensitive to some possible artifacts, and of course, you haven't made double blind test. I have only
  your word for it, and frankly, that really isn't much.

all of which is fair comment. Where does that leave us?
Quote
Just because I (or anyone else) can't see logically why sample jitter due to CPU utilisation might be a problem doesn't mean that it isn't.

I quite agree. Here's an example of what you might be talking about. Jplay decompresses all of the tracks it is to play before starting to play the 1st track. From that, you (probably) and I (definitely) would infer that since the decompression has happened before we hear a single note, then there cannot be a difference between playing a .flac file as compared to a .wav file of the same music. But there are many in the jplay forum, including the author, who believe that they experience a different and superior sound if they present .wav files instead of .flac files to jplay. I can't comment on this as I haven't tried it. But if they are right, how would that result ever be capable of being represented in any published results? I suppose Shakespeare expressed it beter "There are more things, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy".

Quote
Oh, and sorry to be pedantic, but it's "different from", not "different to".

You've picked the wrong person for this argument!  As it's off topic, I've sent you a private message.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: hugson on 10 February, 2012, 09:40:12 PM
What you must do now is provide the details of the experimental setup as exactly as you can, and then I'm sure people here will attempt to reproduce your results, or comment on the experiment itself.

But if my hardware is contributing to our subjective conclusions, what can I publish that is worthwhile? I am quite certain that my hardware is unique, and considerably more complex than over 99% of everyone else's hardware. BTW, what is the difference between the "methods" we used, and a double blind test? What does the word double signify?

Quote
As someone said recently on a jplay forum:
"...but hell, I'd rather just listen to music than spend my time testing."
This comment speaks of an attitude to listening that is very different to what seems to prevail here.


Quote
I'm sorry you feel that way. I, personally, would much rather listen to music than spend time incessantly tinkering with my audio stack; behaviour that is typical of those audiophiles who claim that every tiny insignificant change is "night and day" or "immediately obvious". Worst case, the fruitless tinkering becomes an expensive hobby, when a fraction of the money can deliver the exact same aural experience and the leftover money can be spent on good music and concerts tickets of your favourite artists.

I completely agree.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: hugson on 10 February, 2012, 09:45:35 PM
What kind of technical issues did you have?

USB problems (insufficient power was causing the USB device to be not found when resuming from standby).
Settings not being remembered (caused by 2 jplay shortcuts invoked by the same hotkey).
Not starting the service and player in the right order.
Starting folder problems when invoking jplay using the Windows/Run keys and values in the registry.
Insufficient contiguous memory when starting or restarting jplay.

All of these problems have been resolved, most of them would no longer be encountered because of the different architecture jplay now uses.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: hugson on 10 February, 2012, 09:48:16 PM
Paragraph 1, righteous indignation. Check.
Paragraph 2, Argument from having spent a lot of money. Check.
Paragraph 3, "I used to be like you", with a side of concern trolling. Check.
Paragraphs 4 and 5, personal anecdote with a TOS8 cherry on top. Check.
Paragraph 6, "don't criticize unless you have tried it yourself". Check.
Paragraph 7, argumentum ad verecundiam. Check.
Paragraph 8, straw man. Check.
Paragraph 9, "I look down on you." Check.
Paragraph 10, irrelevancy. Check.
Going for the record in fallacy density?

Your words have certainly contributed to more meaningful discussions. What an intellect! Latin, even. So articulate. So persuasive.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: kraut on 10 February, 2012, 10:34:57 PM
Quote
But if my hardware is contributing to our subjective conclusions, what can I publish that is worthwhile?


you are not comparing different hardware, you are comparing different software within that hardware, so that parameter is constant and of no concern.
If you had taken the effort to tread through the posting instead of shilling uncritically with suspicious methodology for jplay you would have noticed the link to testing methods that are admissible as evidence.

Quote
Your words have certainly contributed to more meaningful discussions. What an intellect! Latin, even. So articulate. So persuasive.


Yes, very meaningful indeed as it points out the collection of straw men, fallacies etc. you put up and committed in your posting, which certainly makes your contribution useless unless you have to offer anything more substantial than vague hints about the uniqueness of your system and unsubstantiated claims typical of the audiophile bull one has to endure on so called audio forums that are usually nothing else than masturbatory fantasy sites for those with more money than reason.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: ExUser on 10 February, 2012, 10:41:35 PM
I have realized that this forum lacks a good moderator who can take action against those who are abusive (words like fraudster spring to mind).
I can't speak for the other members of the mod staff, but in general, we do not take action regarding posts that we view as true. There are plenty of fraudsters out there, and these fuckwits need to be called out on their bullshit. There is no other way to deal with purveyors of misinformation than to label them as such.

Does that offend you? Does it bother you that I'm speaking the truth exactly as I see it without filter? If you want somewhere that's going to cater to your sensibilities, this is the wrong place for you. If you want somewhere that's going to aggressively defend scientific truth insofar as it can be known, you're among friends.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: wakibaki on 10 February, 2012, 11:16:38 PM
...a quantum leap forward...


Always with the quantum leaps.

Thing is, contributions like yours are commonplace and the points made are merely repetitions of logical fallacies that fall into easily recognisable categories, despite being raised in defence of disparate products. It gets tiresome to deal with these over and over again, considering that they are fallacies, and that the people who post them blithely imagine that they're unique inventions replete with originality, reason and exemplary scientific curiosity. I'm surprised you missed the one about 'closed minds'.

Take the time to read around a few forums and you will see, not tens, but tens of thousands of posts such as yours full of the same clichéd, bankrupt illogic masquerading as liberal, enlightened, tolerant, open-minded observation of simple truth made by people who have no idea of the true difficulty involved in winnowing what is real from the chaff of the apparently obvious.

Next time try to make a real contribution instead of just adding to the torrent of undistinguished, undifferentiated and hackneyed platitudes to which we are constantly exposed. Please.

w
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: MichaelW on 11 February, 2012, 12:03:39 AM
@hugson

I'm probably feeding a troll, but still. I have no problem believing that one day you enjoy music more than another day; happens to us all. The issue is locating where that difference comes from. Since psychological factors are so powerful (commonly called the placebo effect), and affect everyone, including hard-minded sciency types, it is necessary to set up carefully controlled circumstances to test whether the difference lies in the hardware, software, room, time of day, grape variety, whatever. Part of this careful control is to ensure that no-one knows which of two alternatives under test is operating at the time. Has to be nobody in the room who knows which is which, otherwise you can have (quite involuntarily, sometimes) influence by the investigator. As in Clever Hans. This is known as a double blind test: neither the subject nor the administrator knows which is the control and which the test item. A double blind test won't say which of two alternatives is better, it will just ensure that a difference in experience is due to the item under test: that is, that you can really hear a difference between jplay and something else, rather than enjoying the music more because you've done something special (which would, of course, be a perfectly legitimate thing to do: if someone enjoys music more with a disco ball going, good luck, as long as they don't claim it affects the sound.)

Of course, I find it very hard to believe that someone with enough money to buy super fancy equipment does NOT know what double blind tests are, since they have been standard in medicine for decades. There is also a discrepancy between your claim that your special equipment is particularly relevant to the difference jplay makes, and the earlier claim that the difference is unmistakable.

One of the things audiotrolls do is to persist in an unctuous and false display of good manners, which is normally a sign that they are in bad faith, and believe they have won if they provoke into anger people who care about trivia like truth. Since you are not like that, I am sure you will read up a bit on double blind tests, and implement one so that you can share the with the world the virtues of jplay, with undeniable evidence. Wouldn't that be good?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: shakey_snake on 11 February, 2012, 12:11:31 AM
If you want somewhere that's going to cater to your sensibilities, this is the wrong place for you.

I really tend to disagree. People have "sensibilities" because they feel it makes a difference in their lives.

If they really want to know if something makes a difference, there is no better place than here at HA.

If they want to continue to suffer the delusion that specific things we know we can test cannot be tested, then this probably isn't the place for them.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: skamp on 11 February, 2012, 06:04:33 AM
That testing really didn't take long, as it was immediately obvious to me that jplay represented a quantum leap forward in anything I had ever heard on a computer. I enlisted the help of a friend, and we did some blind tests together. Nothing scientific, we weren't measuring dbs or noise levels or anything else - we were simply listening to the music (predominantly classical, flac format, 16-bit 44k and 24-bit 96k - which is the best quality output my USB DAC can handle). In 100% of the samples we tested, we always successfully identified the jplay sound, and always found it to be the most appealing.

How was your test double blind? I'm interested in your software setup (your hardware setup is irrelevant here). To be honest, I can't think of an easy way of conducting such a test without some additional, specially made software (a foobar2000 plugin for instance), giving you the ability to switch between playback engines seemlessly without knowing what you're switching to. Playing devil's advocate here, I'm worried we're asking you to provide proof that you don't currently have the means to produce in the first place.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 11 February, 2012, 08:07:49 AM
I infer from what you and others write about double blind tests that you believe any differences experienced while listening (subjective) can be determined by measurable results (objective) from a double blind test. I wonder if that is really true?


There is a subtle misunderstanding apparent from this quote.

A test, in this case, doe not measure which one you like best. It cannot. An ABX does not tell you which one you prefer. What it tests for is a difference. IT tests whether you can identify both pieces. Logically, if you are unable to tell a difference, then the question whether one sounds better is completely off the table and can be safely ignored.

Suppose I listen to music sample A on day 1 using equipment X, and enjoy it very much. I can then listen again to music sample A on day 2 using equipment X, and not enjoy it at all. The only thing that has apparently changed from one listen to the next is me - [...] Now I'm sure this can't be measured in any double blind test.


Again, you mention measuring "enjoyment". This is not relevant. It doesn't matter whether you enjoy a given piece on a given day in a given mood. All that matters is whether you can tell the difference. Granted, mood and bodily state can affect what you hear or think you hear, but you compensate for this by doing multiple sessions across a larger time frame. Do a test today, then do one tomorrow, then again next week. This should smooth out irregularities. Given the 100% obvious result you quote, I don't think subtle changes such as your mood will influence your ability to tell jplay from not-jplay.

Quote
What does the word double signify?


I means that:
1) You don't know what's playing. Your desire to prefer one playback method over another can and most definitely will influence the outcome. In the interest of completeness and honesty, I sometimes think my time on HA has predisposed me to not hear a difference even when there may be one if I listened closely. But a double-blind test will weed out that bias regardless of its nature!

2) The person or apparatus choosing the A or B must do so randomly, and you must not be able to communicate with that person in any way. Recall the tale of the counting horse! The horse was believed to be capable of doing simple arithmetic, but the reality is that its owner unintentionally and subconsciously gave it hints when to stop beating its hoof, thus always providing the right answer. There was no malice involved, but the owner of the horse should have left the room.

Additions or corrections to the above are welcomed.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 11 February, 2012, 08:12:22 AM
One of the things audiotrolls do is to persist in an unctuous and false display of good manners, which is normally a sign that they are in bad faith


That's a style of communication, developed after being in the company of like-minded people. Stick with what people actually say, not how they say it.

Since Hugson, as I see it, has already made the transition – in a single page, even! – from spouting claims to asking "how to" questions, there's no need for further, um, analysis of his person.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: JimH on 11 February, 2012, 09:34:59 AM
There are plenty of fraudsters out there, and these fuckwits need to be called out on their bullshit. There is no other way to deal with purveyors of misinformation than to label them as such.

I don't recall ever seeing language like "fuckwit" and "bullshit" in a science journal.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 11 February, 2012, 10:40:24 AM
Quote
But if my hardware is contributing to our subjective conclusions, what can I publish that is worthwhile?


you are not comparing different hardware, you are comparing different software within that hardware, so that parameter is constant and of no concern.


I don't think that argument is valid: computer operation involves software that tells hardware what to do.

As I have linked to earlier, I've had issues with fairly loud noise occurring when I scrolled the screen using my mouse wheel. Now is this a hardware or a software issue? Someone (active in this thread) made the hypothesis that it was due to bad ground on mobo, and let us for the sake of the discussion assume that this was the case. Then it is a hardware issue. But as long as software does not tell the graphics card to do any work, then the problem will not manifest itself. Is it then a software issue? Not really, as the software is doing what it is supposed to do. Nevertheless, if a piece of software would indeed idle the troublesome hardware component, it would mitigate hardware issues.

Actually, this is not that far from what Jplay claims to do (in addition to obvious nonsense claims like the fits-in-cache, where Josef has admitted that he has indeed not made a cache-resident application). When the 'quit scrolling' operation improves sound – on bad hardware – then 'tell computer to ingore such instructions' can (again, on bad hardware).

Of course, the right way to do this, would be to stay away from computer components which spit noise on everything else (but in my case, Dell couldn't be trusted on that ...).  Ironically, there are lots of 'audiophiles' who would buy just those particular pieces of hardware which have improper noise insulation, or inappropriate buffering, or otherwise fallacious in signal processing – just because it enables them to hear differences in other equipment. Obviously a DAC which cannot be trusted to correctly filter a '0.99' into a digital '1', could more often than a properly constructed one, reveal noise to the user, and there are always those which mistake this malfunctioning for 'analytic quality' or whatever.



Now as I'm digressing way out of the posting I am replying to ... :

I don't recall ever seeing language like "fuckwit" and "bullshit" in a science journal.


Google Scholar is your friend. While you're at it, feel free to test the validity of rule 34
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Rotareneg on 11 February, 2012, 10:41:44 AM
I don't recall ever seeing language like "fuckwit" and "bullshit" in a science journal.


They might get more subscriptions if they did however.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 11 February, 2012, 03:14:29 PM
There are plenty of fraudsters out there, and these fuckwits need to be called out on their bullshit. There is no other way to deal with purveyors of misinformation than to label them as such.
I don't recall ever seeing language like "fuckwit" and "bullshit" in a science journal.

Good thing this is not a science journal then, eh?

See also:
Stick with what people actually say, not how they say it.

People’s quibbling over tone and whatnot would be less tiresome and possibly perfectly reasonable if they were to address the points in the message to which they are replying before doing so. That so many of those who are challenged about a given claim respond with indignation over less-cuddly wording and/or perceived personal persecution, rather than with any actual substance in favour of said claim, is very revealing of a lack of tenability.

Also, I liked wakibaki’s post.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: andy o on 11 February, 2012, 03:53:32 PM
And in this particular example, the tone troll didn't even realize that his post was very rude to begin with. Who cares about some loose words like "fraudster" or "fuckwit" when you're passively and politely calling everyone else an ignorant idiot who should be ashamed.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 11 February, 2012, 04:03:52 PM
That’s true.

I was going to request ABX results, in line with ToS8; but then again, we have this:
As someone said recently on a jplay forum:
  "...but hell, I'd rather just listen to music than spend my time testing."
This comment speaks of an attitude to listening that is very different to what seems to prevail here.

Shame on you.

Reading the ToS would have warned you away from here if objective evidence offends you in comparison to a pleasant placebo.

Feel free to refrain from posting here if you find it distasteful to comply with the rules to which you verified your assent during registration.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: krabapple on 11 February, 2012, 05:55:46 PM
Hugson's posting history suggests he/she/it joined HA last summer to get help with a foobar2k playlist issue.  There's one post about that, then the recent spate on this thread.  That's it.

Possibly hugson hasn't read much on HA and isn't very familiar at all with HA rules and 'culture'.


(shame on him ;> )

Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: icstm on 13 February, 2012, 09:18:41 AM
I am now pretty happy that:

1) JPlay authors and users are not that bothered about telling the rest of us why they think it is a great piece of s/w

2) If they can hear a difference it probably is using some change to EQ to do it, as most of their descriptors would not come of digital processing or D/A conversion

Given I could stick a probe a measure anything from the soundcard onwards and given anything before that has been perfectly handled (ie bitperfect processed) it would be easy for them to show us differences in the PCM stream. It is only this stream that their s/w can have a meaningful influence over (I think).
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 14 February, 2012, 10:37:35 AM
Cross posting a jplay thread on the computeraudiophile forum.  I finally had to say something last night.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/...#comment-127258 (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/JPlay-Player-Windows#comment-127258)

I used the M word.

I just did read over the thread at computeraudiophile.
Seems like all comes down to the better RAM handling changing the sound to the positive. So the claim is that inside the same plattform using jplay changes the way even a asynchronous attached device gets its buffer filled.
This at least should be to measure but isn´t for some reason.
My understaning of this implies that every single processor/RAM/platform implementation must sound different which is a problem.

This of cause has to lead to only one possible conclusion: PC based sound playback doesn´t work and should be considered a dead end, there are to many variables at play

When i imagine myself to be a software developer like you JimH, that did spend endless hours of his life to develop a complete suite that grew over many years i´d really had to wonder. Isn´t it much easier to code some esotheric code that prevents bit-rot* and demanding twice the money for it?

When you have some time and read over the forum there are several threads that have strange reasoning. This one for example:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Why-2496-not-24192 (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Why-2496-not-24192)
They even use scientific pictures
It must be said there are of course several people knowing their stuff.

* bit-rot is a term i learned lately and describes the audiophile problem that happens on computer playback all the time
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: smok3 on 16 February, 2012, 03:48:19 PM
well, since what they promise is:

"Puristic design provides transcendent quality"

that could qualify as:

1. there is only one knob (on/off maybe), i did not try this, so this is an educated guess
2. Visual + Audio + Unknown vibrations produce some sort of "mass" (This is well known in video editing, for example it is very hard to follow two people talking at the same time and watching some really fast driving video at the same time)
3. So in this case all the visual mass is taken away (due to one knob), they do support the one-knob theory with their site as well (looks like apple)
4.  + That feeling of importance when you think you found holly grail (religion?)
5. So the overall mass is low, all is there for audio consumption, since you were trained to that state from the beginning = vinyl sounds better (of course it does, you can "see" the music)

makes sense.

p.s. this is the wallpaper that will improve the sound stage and deepen the bass as well;
http://wallpaperstock.net/volume-knob_wall...560x1920_1.html (http://wallpaperstock.net/volume-knob_wallpapers_17585_2560x1920_1.html)
p.s.2. music with this wallpaper sounds better than jplay (works just fine with foobar, but we are testing itunes as well)

edit: actually someone could make some sort of template page/letter explaining the "delusion" and the link to that could then be just poped onto a replay of such threads/topics, otherwise the danger of HA pollution is rising.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: JimH on 19 February, 2012, 07:07:15 PM
User mitchco spent some time testing.  This looks like hard evidence, not opinion.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/JR...AY-Test-Results (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/JRiver-vs-JPLAY-Test-Results)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 19 February, 2012, 07:47:35 PM
Thanks for letting us know. I like this Diffmaker application a while now. Nice that one member there took some time and effort.
Nonetheless it is a bit terrifying to read the first response to his post.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Kujibo on 19 February, 2012, 08:37:19 PM
Thanks for letting us know. I like this Diffmaker application a while now. Nice that one member there took some time and effort.
Nonetheless it is a bit terrifying to read the first response to his post.


I had to force myself to stop reading after the first response as I felt the presence of my anus becoming tighter, more focused, and lively. 
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: andy o on 19 February, 2012, 11:45:44 PM
I'm guessing you guys mean this one:
Quote
great effort.
JPLAY, to me, does sound marginally more focused with a bit more presence and tighter.
WAV vs FLAC, WAV always wins out for me being more focused, tighter and alive.

I don't think this person knows what "effort" means. It seems to be a theme that many of these guys don't know what words mean.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 20 February, 2012, 08:16:54 AM
User mitchco spent some time testing.  This looks like hard evidence, not opinion.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/JR...AY-Test-Results (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/JRiver-vs-JPLAY-Test-Results)


Note that anybody well-schooled in the TAS school of audio consumption can easily immediately dismiss these obviously highly credible results.

Einstein is said to have defined insanity of doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results. If you listen to the same audio data over and over again and expect a different result that makes you what... insane?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: icstm on 20 February, 2012, 08:53:05 AM
It is almost worth signing up to their site just to thank him! That really is quite interesting.
BTW, I we saying that a async DAC would have removed even the tiny measured difference?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 20 February, 2012, 09:08:53 AM
It is almost worth signing up to their site just to thank him! That really is quite interesting.
BTW, I we saying that a async DAC would have removed even the tiny measured difference?


That wasn't the author's answer, and I agree with him.

The general problem was that he pushed his data through the analog domain, where it was likely to be corrupted by noise.

In his tests, he used a on-board ADC with about 90 dB dynamic range. The consequential noise floor was the main source of the trivial differences that he measured. The Lynx L22 (a great performer on the test bench in its own right) that he used as a DAC is not a heck of a lot better than the Dell's on board ADC  if you drive it with 16 bit data.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 20 February, 2012, 09:18:07 AM
As I have linked to earlier, I've had issues with fairly loud noise occurring when I scrolled the screen using my mouse wheel. Now is this a hardware or a software issue?


Probably due to an interaction between the two.

Quote
Someone (active in this thread) made the hypothesis that it was due to bad ground on mobo,


Probably false. One can often fix this problem with changes to software parameters, or by loading a different device driver software package.

Quote
Actually, this is not that far from what Jplay claims to do (in addition to obvious nonsense claims like the fits-in-cache, where Josef has admitted that he has indeed not made a cache-resident application). When the 'quit scrolling' operation improves sound – on bad hardware – then 'tell computer to ingore such instructions' can (again, on bad hardware).


The problem with Jplay is pretty basic, it is a solution looking for a problem.

We've been able to get really great audio in and out of Windows systems since the middle 1990s.  I personally did it using nothing more SOTA  software-wise than the Windows Media player. 

Contrary to the current hubub over ASIO drivers, I did it with standard MMC drivers. Contrary to this current tussle over code that is carefully crafted to fit into the CPU cache, I even did it with software casually written in Visual basic 6.0.


Quote
Of course, the right way to do this, would be to stay away from computer components which spit noise on everything else


Yet another audiophile myth. I have found measured dynamic range (THD+distortion) as low as 118 dB down using a well-designed PCI card in a plain-vanilla PC - the first one I tried it on!

Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 20 February, 2012, 11:14:00 AM
Thanks for letting us know. I like this Diffmaker application a while now. Nice that one member there took some time and effort.
Nonetheless it is a bit terrifying to read the first response to his post.

I just want to clarify this one. The thread layout changed meanwhile, no clue why this is but the post i mentioned is now inbetween.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: icstm on 20 February, 2012, 11:22:12 AM
It is almost worth signing up to their site just to thank him! That really is quite interesting.
BTW, I we saying that a async DAC would have removed even the tiny measured difference?


That wasn't the author's answer, and I agree with him...

good I am comfortable with that
(I meant to type "are we" not "I we"...)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 22 February, 2012, 04:33:08 AM
Quote
Someone (active in this thread) made the hypothesis that it was due to bad ground on mobo,


Probably false.


Well, have a look at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=735854 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=85509&view=findpost&p=735854) .  You might recognize the author ... 
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: icstm on 22 February, 2012, 09:16:50 AM
Quote
Someone (active in this thread) made the hypothesis that it was due to bad ground on mobo,


Probably false.


Well, have a look at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=735854 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=85509&view=findpost&p=735854) .  You might recognize the author ... 
ok, so who ARE we to trust? 
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 12 March, 2013, 08:40:25 AM
Quote
Someone (active in this thread) made the hypothesis that it was due to bad ground on mobo,


Probably false.


Well, have a look at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=735854 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=85509&view=findpost&p=735854) .  You might recognize the author ... 
ok, so who ARE we to trust? 


Also, there is an inherent mistake in trying to generalize an answer to a specific question.

Just because I diagnosed a grounding problem in a specific case doesn't mean that I think there is a grounding problem behind every noisy PC.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 26 March, 2013, 04:43:49 AM
Hi,

I just signed up to this site to give my 2 cents on JPLAY and support joseph and the software.

I have just completed a Bachelor of Computer Science from UNSW, and know that bits are bits, so the concept seemed flawed from the start. I am also a professional musician and audiophile, so I (believe I) can detect very fine detail in sound. Double blind tests have shown it!

The first time I downloaded and tested JPLAY I used Donald Fagen's Trans-Island Skyway as a test track. I have listened to this track hundreds of times and (thought) I knew the sound inside out. Within 5 seconds of listening to the track "holy shit" escaped my mouth as I heard space, detail, clarity, and crispness I had never heard before. Before you bash the software, download the trial and use your EARS to test it. There is a difference, and a marked one at that. The difference was night and day for me.

I only read to page 4 of this thread before giving up due to negativity, so please forgive me if this info has already been posted by another user.

Kind regards,


sabrehagen
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Agitator on 26 March, 2013, 05:14:10 AM
Hi,

I just signed up to this site to give my 2 cents on JPLAY and support joseph and the software.

I have just completed a Bachelor of Computer Science from UNSW, and know that bits are bits, so the concept seemed flawed from the start. I am also a professional musician and audiophile, so I (believe I) can detect very fine detail in sound. Double blind tests have shown it!

The first time I downloaded and tested JPLAY I used Donald Fagen's Trans-Island Skyway as a test track. I have listened to this track hundreds of times and (thought) I knew the sound inside out. Within 5 seconds of listening to the track "holy shit" escaped my mouth as I heard space, detail, clarity, and crispness I had never heard before. Before you bash the software, download the trial and use your EARS to test it. There is a difference, and a marked one at that. The difference was night and day for me.

I only read to page 4 of this thread before giving up due to negativity, so please forgive me if this info has already been posted by another user.

Kind regards,


sabrehagen


Do you have any ABX results to back that claim?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: probedb on 26 March, 2013, 05:24:04 AM
Hi,

I just signed up to this site to give my 2 cents on JPLAY and support joseph and the software.

I have just completed a Bachelor of Computer Science from UNSW, and know that bits are bits, so the concept seemed flawed from the start. I am also a professional musician and audiophile, so I (believe I) can detect very fine detail in sound. Double blind tests have shown it!

The first time I downloaded and tested JPLAY I used Donald Fagen's Trans-Island Skyway as a test track. I have listened to this track hundreds of times and (thought) I knew the sound inside out. Within 5 seconds of listening to the track "holy shit" escaped my mouth as I heard space, detail, clarity, and crispness I had never heard before. Before you bash the software, download the trial and use your EARS to test it. There is a difference, and a marked one at that. The difference was night and day for me.

I only read to page 4 of this thread before giving up due to negativity, so please forgive me if this info has already been posted by another user.

Kind regards,


sabrehagen


First post and a TOS #8 violation, well done.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 26 March, 2013, 06:01:16 AM
Quote
I have just completed a Bachelor of Computer Science from UNSW


No DBT process described, no evidence, no difference. As a Bachelor of Science you should know better than to throw this muck at an evidence-based forum.

Alternatively, burn your diploma.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 26 March, 2013, 06:38:18 AM
Are they paying you people to do this? And did they give you a script? ‘Hit and run with incredulous posts about how closed-minded and pitiably pessimistic they are and how emotionally dripping subjective impressions somehow trump the intellectually honest requirement of objective testing.’ I ask because the same thing happens with minor changes to the details over and over again. Of course, now there’s the new secret weapon: bragging references to degrees. The reality, or at least the deserving, of which I honestly question if you’re able to say things like this in seriousness. Just do anything to evidence that these miraculous things you say are true, or go away.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 26 March, 2013, 08:35:26 AM
Are they paying you people to do this? And did they give you a script? ‘Hit and run with incredulous posts about how closed-minded and pitiably pessimistic they are and how emotionally dripping subjective impressions somehow trump the intellectually honest requirement of objective testing.’ I ask because the same thing happens with minor changes to the details over and over again. Of course, now there’s the new secret weapon: bragging references to degrees. The reality, or at least the deserving, of which I honestly question if you’re able to say things like this in seriousness. Just do anything to evidence that these miraculous things you say are true, or go away.


Interesting. Most likely I am just very paranoid but many posts uncritically praising jplay on computeraudiophile come from people who registered in fall 2012.  Most likely a coincidence...

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-soft...released-14909/ (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/jplay-5b-released-14909/)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: rednyrg721 on 26 March, 2013, 12:00:00 PM
This thread is first result in Google for [Jplay+scam] query, so it's quite probable that they are trying to somehow oppose thread title statement.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 26 March, 2013, 01:26:29 PM
People are welcome to prove the general sentiment of this thread wrong if they have any valid way to do so. Fame and fortune await.

Of course, the contenders so far have fallen terrible short of that standard. All we have are finger-waving appeals to ‘Wake up, sheeple’ and appeals to emotion, nothing of substance whatsoever. How people think such proclamations will alter the stance of a website based specifically on tenets that run completely contrary to the avoid-objectivity-at-all-costs mindset that Jplay exploits, I haven’t the foggiest.

To any other acolytes reading this: If you are bemused by the failure of a sensible evidence-based community to agree with your sentimental impressions, said community doesn’t care. You can either evaluate your claims properly, or you can keep them to yourself and any other Jplay users who might want to celebrate with you about how warm and fuzzy Jplay makes you all feel.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mitchco on 27 March, 2013, 03:48:42 AM
User mitchco spent some time testing.  This looks like hard evidence, not opinion.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/JR...AY-Test-Results (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/JRiver-vs-JPLAY-Test-Results)


Sorry, Chris changed the site layout and the link is now here:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/mi...st-results-156/ (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/mitchco/jriver-vs-jplay-test-results-156/)

Halfway through the comments on the 2nd page, I re-ran DiffMaker using digital loopback. The result is as expected.
Both the analog and digital difference files (attached at end of post) can be downloaded and listened to.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 28 March, 2013, 03:53:49 AM
Quote
I have just completed a Bachelor of Computer Science from UNSW


No DBT process described, no evidence, no difference. As a Bachelor of Science you should know better than to throw this muck at an evidence-based forum.

Alternatively, burn your diploma.


Thanks for the advice.

I have done double blind tests, 16 in a row for 1/65535 accuracy. I was able to identify the JPLAY version 100% of the time, as though it was night and day. How do I post the results without you all poo-pooing and saying they're fabricated?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: probedb on 28 March, 2013, 04:11:06 AM
I have done double blind tests, 16 in a row for 1/65535 accuracy. I was able to identify the JPLAY version 100% of the time, as though it was night and day. How do I post the results without you all poo-pooing and saying they're fabricated?


Where are the results? I can say I can ABX between two identical files but without proof it's meaningless drivel.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: aztec_mystic on 28 March, 2013, 05:14:51 AM
Where are the results? I can say I can ABX between two identical files but without proof it's meaningless drivel.

and with "proof," it's a type I error
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 28 March, 2013, 05:24:19 AM
I have done double blind tests, 16 in a row for 1/65535 accuracy. I was able to identify the JPLAY version 100% of the time, as though it was night and day. How do I post the results without you all poo-pooing and saying they're fabricated?


Did you check for bit-perfection?

And it is a good question about correct way to post test results. I am interested in the answer too.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 28 March, 2013, 05:55:52 AM
How do I post the results without you all poo-pooing and saying they're fabricated?


That is the right question! The exact details of your DBT setup are very welcome.

As far as fabricated results go, yes it's always possible to outright lie about the data, but we usually take it on good faith that we all want to get results and learn something. Having the details of your experiment will help people to repeat the experiment independently.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 28 March, 2013, 10:19:28 AM
As far as fabricated results go, yes it's always possible to outright lie about the data, but we usually take it on good faith that we all want to get results and learn something. Having the details of your experiment will help people to repeat the experiment independently.

To be honest if someone just registered and his very first posts are about bringing a commercial product in a better light i doubt my good faith is strong enough.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sld on 28 March, 2013, 11:04:09 AM
It is, however, something very, very different to accuse someone of being a cheat and a liar: and if you do that then, sorry pal, but as db1989 said ‘the burden of proof is on claimant’…

Foobar2000 doesn't modify the bitstream. Jplay doesn't modify the bitstream. But you claim that Jplay sounds better. A lie, then?

Quote
You want measurements? Kraut, man, top scientist in the world with budgets in millions (billions?) can’t agree whether they measured speed of light correctly or not yet you want two guys in garage to come up with a scientific paper that proves beyond doubt that what happens in PC during music playback can affect it? LOL

Red herring and straw man.
These scientists used the BEST SCIENCE and can't agree. You didn't even do anything scientific (i.e. double-blind testing aka DBT) to show the prowess of your software, let alone come up with a scientific paper. 

Quote
And I don’t mean voodoo things but simple, logical, straightforward things like: if playback process is pegged to a single core which is cleared of any other tasks could it affect timeliness of data delivery?

Or, if OS scheduling priorities can be set to favour music playback process as opposed to ‘other’ tasks could it also ‘help’ deliver data to DAC ‘on time’?

Since these are so trivial (to you), I expect to see graphs showing that your software has less jitter, is "more timely", and I expect you to provide details on the computer systems you did the testing on. Thank you Sir!

Quote
Note: I am not implying ‘better’ or ‘worse’ SQ but a clear measurable difference…

Premise P: Foobar2000 claims to be indistinguishable from the original recording (usually CD).
Premise Q: Jpplay claims that it sounds different from Foobar2000.
Deduction: Jplay sounds different from the original recording, and hence has modified the bitstream.

Quote
But if you dare call me a cheat please put forward some evidence of your own or retract the claim…

The illogic of your software and your arguments is making the accusations, not us.    Sorry!
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 28 March, 2013, 02:30:02 PM
Since these are so trivial (to you), I expect to see graphs showing that your software has less jitter, is "more timely", and I expect you to provide details on the computer systems you did the testing on. Thank you Sir!


Plus I would ask for an explanation how "playback software delivery jitter" affects the actual jitter of the soundcard when these are  two asynchronous time-independent tasks, the other without participation of the CPU (DMA directly to the soundcard/usb controller). Just a typical marketing nonsense aimed at affluent clueless customers.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 28 March, 2013, 10:42:57 PM
I have done double blind tests, 16 in a row for 1/65535 accuracy. I was able to identify the JPLAY version 100% of the time, as though it was night and day. How do I post the results without you all poo-pooing and saying they're fabricated?


Where are the results? I can say I can ABX between two identical files but without proof it's meaningless drivel.


This is why I'm asking the correct method to post my results. If you have trouble understanding "How do I post the results without you [...] saying they're fabricated?", I have serious trouble believing that any results I post will be interpreted correctly.

How do I post the results without you all poo-pooing and saying they're fabricated?


That is the right question! The exact details of your DBT setup are very welcome.


Well, I had the exact same FLAC file used for all tests. A and B alternated between the following two options; played with VLC or played with JPLAY. X was then of course either played with VLC or played with JPLAY. The tests were set out in a table beforehand, and the results recorded. I sat with my headphones on and my friend controlled the computer, out of view. Each time, I could tell whether X was the same as A or B.

I am working from the premise that JPLAY sounds better than VLC. Are you in disagreement with this? Do you agree that VLC, WinAmp, WMP, iTunes, etc all sound the same (of course without any EQ or filters applied)? Should I be testing another piece of software that you all believe sounds better than VLC? I am unaware of whether or not the forum consensus is that foobar2000 is the best sounding player, or otherwise. Could you please enlighten me?

My setup is Windows 7 64-bit PC playing FLAC files through either VLC or PLAY for testing purposes, optical Toslink output to a Beresford Bushmaster DAC, into Bose AE1 headphones.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Mach-X on 28 March, 2013, 11:24:21 PM
Quote
I am working from the premise that JPLAY sounds better than VLC. Are you in disagreement with this? Do you agree that VLC, WinAmp, WMP, iTunes, etc all sound the same (of course without any EQ or filters applied)? Should I be testing another piece of software that you all believe sounds better than VLC? I am unaware of whether or not the forum consensus is that foobar2000 is the best sounding player, or otherwise. Could you please enlighten me?

The consensus of this forum is that all of those players without any EQ or dsp plugins applied will deliver the exact same bitstream and, therefore sound identical every time, all the time. Only by modifying the bitstream do you change the sound, whether for better or worse. foobar2000 is favoured simply because it is free and open source.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 29 March, 2013, 12:33:24 AM
Quote
I am working from the premise that JPLAY sounds better than VLC. Are you in disagreement with this? Do you agree that VLC, WinAmp, WMP, iTunes, etc all sound the same (of course without any EQ or filters applied)? Should I be testing another piece of software that you all believe sounds better than VLC? I am unaware of whether or not the forum consensus is that foobar2000 is the best sounding player, or otherwise. Could you please enlighten me?

The consensus of this forum is that all of those players without any EQ or dsp plugins applied will deliver the exact same bitstream and, therefore sound identical every time, all the time. Only by modifying the bitstream do you change the sound, whether for better or worse. foobar2000 is favoured simply because it is free and open source.


Well I'm very glad to hear that you believe they are all the same, because that makes my results more personally satisfying. I would then have to pose the question, have any of the people in this forum (and more specifically, those who are so against JPLAY in this thread) actually done a test of this nature? Or for that matter, have you even listened to the output of JPLAY using the trial version purely out of interest, not even in a testing situation? Surely you must be able to hear a difference. The change was night and day to me, not even 'maybe it's a little bit better in this respect, or maybe there's more space there, but it's negligible'. That's why within 3 seconds I can tell the difference between JPLAY and VLC; it's night and day to me.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Takla on 29 March, 2013, 12:43:27 AM
Mach-X consensus isn't evidence, it's opinion.  Other boards also have consensus, on stuff like sound enhancing pebbles, special directional ethernet cables,  the innate goodness of  Kim Jong-un, the wickedness of men, the foolishness of women, and so on.

Foobar2k is not open source.

Perhaps sabrehagen will produce some credible test results and perhaps not, but at least confront him with well founded argument instead of specious assertions or claims, or a demand he prove a negative as was requested earlier in the thread by someone else.  People are asking him to act in good faith and the same should be on offer.

p.s. @ sabrehagen  I can't find any difference between audio players on my computers (except in gap handling), unless I introduce a change such as a software volume control.  It would be pretty odd if it was otherwise.  I have some hardware devices which sound different but that's more to do with noisy line out jacks and, on the older players, disk activity and CPU loads and so on.  I'm not sure how any desktop or laptop made in the last decade is really going to have those kind of issues when decoding audio.

I haven't tried the player in question.  If you'd like to demonstrate its supposed superiority or difference then it's up to you to actually do so.  Just insisting or challenging other people try it is very weak indeed.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 29 March, 2013, 01:16:10 AM
I haven't tried the player in question.  If you'd like to demonstrate its supposed superiority or difference then it's up to you to actually do so.  Just insisting or challenging other people try it is very weak indeed.

The extent of my 'demonstration' is to post a table with my ABX results, I can't do anything more than that over the internet. How do I then make a 'strong' case?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: pawelq on 29 March, 2013, 02:02:41 AM
Well, post the table and post the results of bit-perfect test (because the most obvious explanation of a clearly audible difference is that one player [presumably jplay] spices-up the audio and is not bit-perfect).

There is obviously no way for you to prove that you have not rigged the data, but that would be the first step.

Now, I read on J-play's website that the demo inserts silence into the stream from time to time. Can you please tell us how often does it happen (on average)?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 29 March, 2013, 02:52:13 AM
I believe sabrehagen heard the difference he is reporting. Do not forget neither his setup of jplay nor his setup of VLC was verified for bit perfection. It is perfectly possible the VLC route involved resampling or volume change in the windows mixer http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=75795 (http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=75795)

Verifying bit-perfection of a stream headed for analog output working for any audio hardware and any of the audio output mechanisms available in general is a PITA in windows. In linux I can add the file-storing plugin into the last stage of the audio chain just before the actual driver (which is always bit-perfect), it is simple. But for windows I have no idea. Actually one of the reasons for my OS preference
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 29 March, 2013, 04:58:23 AM
Well, post the table and post the results of bit-perfect test (because the most obvious explanation of a clearly audible difference is that one player [presumably jplay] spices-up the audio and is not bit-perfect).

There is obviously no way for you to prove that you have not rigged the data, but that would be the first step.

Now, I read on J-play's website that the demo inserts silence into the stream from time to time. Can you please tell us how often does it happen (on average)?


It's funny you use the term 'spices-up', because all I can detect is that VLC and foobar sound 'hotter' than JPLAY, with a much more dense sound with more warmth.


I believe sabrehagen heard the difference he is reporting. Do not forget neither his setup of jplay nor his setup of VLC was verified for bit perfection. It is perfectly possible the VLC route involved resampling or volume change in the windows mixer http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=75795 (http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=75795)

Verifying bit-perfection of a stream headed for analog output working for any audio hardware and any of the audio output mechanisms available in general is a PITA in windows. In linux I can add the file-storing plugin into the last stage of the audio chain just before the actual driver (which is always bit-perfect), it is simple. But for windows I have no idea. Actually one of the reasons for my OS preference


I just tested with foobar to remove the potential VLC issue and I can still notice the difference there, just as clear.

I think the only way I can prove that I can detect the difference is to video the test. I want to help the guys over at JPLAY clear their name, and the concept that their software is a scam. Videoing the demonstration is the easiest way I can think of. Also, I looked up Audio DiffMaker and it looks like a real PITA to use. I'll try and make some comparisons tonight.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: skamp on 29 March, 2013, 05:10:17 AM
Make a 30 second sample of a song that you like, which shows the differences. Play it first in foobar2000, and record the output (if your soundcard has both a line-out and a line-in, simply use a male-male cable and connect the line-out to the line-in). Play it again with jplay, and record the output. Post the two recordings in the uploads (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=35) forum. Someone competent can then sample align the recordings and volume match them, and then compare them.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 29 March, 2013, 05:47:36 AM
Make a 30 second sample of a song that you like, which shows the differences. Play it first in foobar2000, and record the output (if your soundcard has both a line-out and a line-in, simply use a male-male cable and connect the line-out to the line-in). Play it again with jplay, and record the output. Post the two recordings in the uploads (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=35) forum. Someone competent can then sample align the recordings and volume match them, and then compare them.


I have done exactly this and the two outputs to not match, there is significant difference. I used Audio DiffMaker to do the test. I have also posted in the uploads section: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=100156 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100156)

This is a sound output. Now how do I test the bitstream?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 29 March, 2013, 05:51:33 AM
It's funny you use the term 'spices-up', because all I can detect is that VLC and foobar sound 'hotter' than JPLAY, with a much more dense sound with more warmth.


You mean Jplay sounds denser and warmer? Regardless of the uselessness of such terms, words like "hot" are usually taken to mean more mid- and high-frequency content, while "warm" often means reduced high-frequency content, increased bass, extra white noise or extra harmonics*.

Recording the output will tell us more.


Quote
Post the two recordings in the uploads forum.


Don't forget the original sample.


*) I also hope you see why a term like "warm" means so little because of the variety of properties that some people under some circumstances call "warm".
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 29 March, 2013, 06:03:59 AM
Thanks for providing the samples! Yeah that's an incredibly clear difference. I don't know what's happening there, but something is messing with jplay output. It sounds very, very filtered, with reduced lows and highs; as if it was played through a small speaker.

The samples can't be formally ABX'd with foobar though, because they don't start at the same time.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 29 March, 2013, 06:18:08 AM
Thanks for providing the samples! Yeah that's an incredibly clear difference. I don't know what's happening there, but something is messing with jplay output. It sounds very, very filtered, with reduced lows and highs; as if it was played through a small speaker.

The samples can't be formally ABX'd with foobar though, because they don't start at the same time.


Maybe you could trim the silence off the front with a wave editor? They also don't finish at the same time because of the JPLAY trial limitation, it seems to drop a couple of seconds off the end of the song, hence the change in the end of the diff file. Assuming the developers of JPLAY are being honest when they say they're not applying filters, that is, only outputting the same 0s and 1s using a different technique, how can I test the digital output to ensure that the bitstreams are in fact the same?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 29 March, 2013, 06:39:03 AM
IMO the technique of recording analog output is a very compromised workaround. Such test will not withstand opposing argumentation. What if the opponent asks the very typical "The difference is caused by lower jitter by my bit-perfect application" while in fact the cause is non-bitperfection of one/both of the streams.

IMO the a credible bit-perfection test needs comparing the digital samples entering the soundcard.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 29 March, 2013, 06:42:48 AM
IMO the technique of recording analog output is a very compromised workaround. Such test will not withstand opposing argumentation. What if the opponent asks the very typical "The difference is caused by lower jitter by my bit-perfect application" while in fact the cause is non-bitperfection of one/both of the streams.

IMO the a credible bit-perfection test needs comparing the digital samples entering the soundcard.


Exactly, so I guess I need some kind of software interface to sit between the two. Does something like that exist?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 29 March, 2013, 06:58:01 AM
Exactly, so I guess I need some kind of software interface to sit between the two. Does something like that exist?


An option would be to run windows players in wine under linux. With wine set to alsa output it is possible to record any stream produced by windows. For testing audio players (not hw drivers) it should suffice. Such setup would take quite a while though.

For wine-incompatible playback software we could use virtualbox which supports direct alsa output too. It offers IntelHDA emulation, it should be possible to check the wasapi chain for bitperfection. If we can find a working ASIO driver for the Intel HDA card emulated by VBox even ASIO chains could be tested. Such solution would be a good setup since VBox emulates physical machine and any software will run.

All these complications due to black-box nature of windows...
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 29 March, 2013, 07:04:40 AM
IMO the technique of recording analog output is a very compromised workaround.


True, but how sloppy would one have to get before one of the recordings becomes a smoothly mid-passed signal with reduced stereo separation (as is the case with the jplay sample here)? This is not a matter of a little more or less noise, or slightly reduced or increased volume, or little bit of distortion. Something happened to the jplay sample (and not in a positive way  ).
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Yaztromo on 29 March, 2013, 07:16:21 AM
For me this test just confirms my already very strong suspicions. Jplay is applying EQ. I never thought all the people that said they could hear a difference were wrong, it's just that the difference is Jplay being deceitful with what it's really doing to the audio.

Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 29 March, 2013, 07:20:38 AM
IMO the technique of recording analog output is a very compromised workaround.


True, but how sloppy would one have to get before one of the recordings becomes a smoothly mid-passed signal with reduced stereo separation (as is the case with the jplay sample here)? This is not a matter of a little more or less noise, or slightly reduced or increased volume, or little bit of distortion. Something happened to the jplay sample (and not in a positive way  ).


Yes, but I am looking for a bullet-proof bitperfection test capable of withstanding fierce argumentation. And nothing less than capturing samples at the soundcard with proven bitperfect intrastructure will hold.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 29 March, 2013, 07:26:07 AM
For me this test just confirms my already very strong suspicions. Jplay is applying EQ. I never thought all the people that said they could hear a difference were wrong, it's just that the difference is Jplay being deceitful with what it's really doing to the audio.


Many users report jplay widened stereo separation. dhromed talks about reduced stereo separation. Until we have the actual digital data available for analysis, all these are just assumptions and feelings. I guess we should stick to TOS #8
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 29 March, 2013, 08:12:50 AM
Since these are so trivial (to you), I expect to see graphs showing that your software has less jitter, is "more timely", and I expect you to provide details on the computer systems you did the testing on. Thank you Sir!


Plus I would ask for an explanation how "playback software delivery jitter" affects the actual jitter of the soundcard when these are  two asynchronous time-independent tasks, the other without participation of the CPU (DMA directly to the soundcard/usb controller). Just a typical marketing nonsense aimed at affluent clueless customers.


It is possible that preloading all of the files in a playlist could avoid clicks and pops on a PC with a bad I/O bottleneck.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 29 March, 2013, 08:29:19 AM
Yes it is possible but such case is a major failure, not a difference in sound  I do not think those reporting faint differences experience dropouts.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 29 March, 2013, 08:30:27 AM
Make a 30 second sample of a song that you like, which shows the differences. Play it first in foobar2000, and record the output (if your soundcard has both a line-out and a line-in, simply use a male-male cable and connect the line-out to the line-in). Play it again with jplay, and record the output. Post the two recordings in the uploads (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=35) forum. Someone competent can then sample align the recordings and volume match them, and then compare them.


I have done exactly this and the two outputs to not match, there is significant difference. I used Audio DiffMaker to do the test. I have also posted in the uploads section: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=100156 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100156)

This is a sound output. Now how do I test the bitstream?


Obvious level mismatch:

Jplayer statistics:

   Left   Right
Min Sample Value:   -8468   -7478
Max Sample Value:   7747   8107
Peak Amplitude:   -11.75 dB   -12.13 dB
Possibly Clipped:   0   0
DC Offset:   0    0
Minimum RMS Power:   -84.24 dB   -88.94 dB
Maximum RMS Power:   -21.02 dB   -21.38 dB
Average RMS Power:   -29.42 dB   -30.17 dB
Total RMS Power:   -28.42 dB   -29.14 dB
Actual Bit Depth:   16 Bits   16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms


Foobar statistics:

   Left   Right
Min Sample Value:   -12652   -14834
Max Sample Value:   13255   15442
Peak Amplitude:   -7.86 dB   -6.53 dB
Possibly Clipped:   0   0
DC Offset:   0    0
Minimum RMS Power:   -85.54 dB   -88.7 dB
Maximum RMS Power:   -15.74 dB   -14.48 dB
Average RMS Power:   -26.31 dB   -26.18 dB
Total RMS Power:   -24.75 dB   -24.5 dB
Actual Bit Depth:   16 Bits   16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 29 March, 2013, 08:35:21 AM
Would you mind translating that to layman a terms for me?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 29 March, 2013, 08:41:33 AM
A deaf one would make 16/16 on this test
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 29 March, 2013, 08:56:09 AM
What if I record jplay output, save it as a flac, and play that back with jplay?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: pdq on 29 March, 2013, 09:10:57 AM
Couldn't you just use a sound card with digital out and in to record the digital data?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 29 March, 2013, 09:31:36 AM
Couldn't you just use a sound card with digital out and in to record the digital data?


I do not know. It does not test the same path. I do not know if in windows the playback application can check whether the selected output is digital, i.e. if this information is available in the API. If so, the application could change its behaviour. Just like windows audio subsystem disables volume control for SPDIF output etc.

But if the above is not the case, the digital-out path is certainly the way out. It requires a specific hw not everyone can have available.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: pawelq on 29 March, 2013, 10:28:06 AM
Couldn't you just use a sound card with digital out and in to record the digital data?


I do not know. It does not test the same path. I do not know if in windows the playback application can check whether the selected output is digital, i.e. if this information is available in the API. If so, the application could change its behaviour. Just like windows audio subsystem disables volume control for SPDIF output etc.

But if the above is not the case, the digital-out path is certainly the way out. It requires a specific hw not everyone can have available.



I have a sound card with S/PDIF in and out. So if I set jplay (and foobar for comparison) to output to S/PDIF out  and record from S/PDIF in with another application using a loopback cable, can the result be helpful? I am asking because I do not have much time and I have reservations about installing jplay on my system. So I am willing to make the sacrifice ;-) only if you guys confirm it's worth doing.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 29 March, 2013, 11:02:11 AM
Yes, most likely you will get relevant results, unless jplay detects the spdif output which I doubt. I used such setup for bit-perfection tests of the card driver in linux.

First you need to establish and verify a bitperfect recording loopback. I always used audacity, switched to 24 bit internal sample and turned off dither. Recording digital input was always bitperfect on linux. However on windows you need a reliable bitperfect recording route, i.e. asio. There should be audacity compiled with asio support somewhere available, though not officially due to asio licensing limitations. Also sample alignment and subtraction of the original and recorded tracks was easy in audacity. I checked zero contents of the subtracted (i.e. difference) wav in sox (command sox diff.wav -n stats must show zeros only). Sole looking at straight line in audacity is not sufficient, IMO.

Once you can playback (e.g. from foobar) and record bit-perfectly, you can record jplay output and do the analysis.

Good luck, your work will be appreciated a lot among people here and elsewhere.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: pawelq on 29 March, 2013, 11:20:13 AM
It may have to wait until Monday (or maybe someone will be able to do it in the meantime). I attempted playing a test file via foobar while recording it into Adobe Audition 3.0 via S/PDIF, and I can't get it to work. Either my soundcard (M-Audio Fast Track Pro) does not allow simultaneous S/PDIF in/out, or the driver does not allow to be accessed by one program for recording and by another for playback. I tried DS and ASIO in different combinations. I'll keep trying a bit more before I give up until Monday.

I thought I would re-activate my mobo soundcard and use it as a source while recording into the M-Audio, but mobo has optical S/PDIF and M-Audio has coaxial. Other machines at home either have no S/PDIF or have optical, or there are other reasons why they cannot be used.

On Monday when I am at work I should be able to set up my M-Audio Fast Track Pro on a computer that has M-Audio Audiophile 192, so I would have two separate cards each with coaxial S/PDIF.

I also have Tascam DR100mkII portable recorder, but again it's at work. More importantly, it's S/PDIF input is not bit perfect, which is an interesting story by itself.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 29 March, 2013, 11:32:31 AM
I hope it goes without saying that tests conducted without complete level-matching are worthless. I appreciate people’s efforts to achieve this and re-do the original test in a valid way. I suspect most of us know what the conclusion will be.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: pawelq on 29 March, 2013, 11:37:06 AM
Either my soundcard (M-Audio Fast Track Pro) does not allow simultaneous S/PDIF in/out,


It does, it seems that I made a bit-perfect recording within Audition via S/PDIF loopback using ASIO driver. But probably ASIO cannot be accessed by two programs at the same time. I can't get Audition to record using a non-ASIO method (which is Audition's own pseudo-ASIO driver "Audition 3.0 Windows Sound", I suspect their own version of ASIO4All). Any suggestions appreciated.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Willakan on 29 March, 2013, 02:10:57 PM
At the suggestion of members on another forum, I ran my own tests on Jplay a while ago to check for bit-perfectness. Along the way, I discovered that 'bit-perfect' recording is really bloody hard. I started off with Foobar2000, reasoning that if I could achieve a perfect null with Foobar's output and the source file I would know that my test was working properly. I discovered several things:

1) Random volume mismatches everywhere because sound card drivers are silly as far as recording is concerned.
2) The "What U Hear" option on my sound card inexplicably inverts the phase of what it's recording, as well as doing all kinds of resampling silliness.
3) Audacity has severe issues as far as being bit-perfect is concerned.
4) Jplay is a horribly designed piece of shit.

I eventually resolved these issues via the usage of the "Virtual Audio Cable" program, which creates a virtual audio interface to which applications (such as Foobar or Jplay) will output. As such, I can see the data that's reaching my sound card drivers when I use Jplay or any other player. VAC then diverted its output via some driver jiggery-pokery to the digital input of my sound card, set up to receive the appropriate sample rate, and set to record. I then had two files I could perform null tests with.

Now, when I tested Jplay I found it, like Foobar, to be bit-perfect (digital silence obtained under null testing with the original material). This was using Jplay's "Kernel Streaming" and its most advanced 'audio engine' - the stuff the designer recommends for the 'best' sound. I thus cannot exclude the possibility that some bizarre combination of settings/inputs of varying sample rates will cause Jplay to perform equalisation or something similar, but I think it unlikely. It would suggest a level of effort and competence on the part of the designer that he has so far failed to demonstrate in either his interactions with this forum or his software design.

If people are really eager, I could set up the tests again, but I'd rather not - Jplay is awkward to work with and the whole process of setting things up so that if things are bit-perfect they will show as bit-perfect (no resampling anywhere in the chain) is quite annoying.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 29 March, 2013, 02:34:44 PM
I think I can offer some help, please see the video below (please use 720p):

http://youtu.be/QMxzF3ctKx8 (http://youtu.be/QMxzF3ctKx8)

I have a Creative X-Fi soundcard and a Roland SC-D70 USB audio interface connected by an optical SPDIF cable. What I did in the video was:

1. Generate a test signal using RMAA.
2. Use SC-D70 to play the signal with foobar2000 while record the signal with X-Fi using RMAA.
3. Use RMAA to compare the original and the recorded signal.
4. Use Adobe Audition to align the original and the recorded signal, then invert one of the two files and mix them to show that they are identical.
5. Use SC-D70 to play a music file while record the music with X-Fi using RMAA. Please note that I only use RMAA as a recorder to show the playback/record procedure is same as step 2, I am not going to analyze the music with RMAA because RMAA cannot do that.
6. Same as step 4, after invert and mixdown, Audition showed that the recorded music is same as original because the statistics showed -inf dB in all fields.

I uploaded the original and recorded music here for anyone who want to align and compare the files themselves:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/f4p0se (http://www.sendspace.com/file/f4p0se)

I can't do the same test on jplay because jplay keeps saying that cannot connect to [some IP address] and I can't play anything with jplay. But at least my test showed that foobar2000 can playback music without any modification to the original file. Therefore... you see what I mean...
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 29 March, 2013, 02:42:14 PM
I've compared the spectra of both of sabrehagen's samples, and the jplay sample has a significant frowny curve EQ applied to it, in addition to being about 4dB quieter in the midrange.

I retract my earlier statement about stereo separation. I can't decide one way or another. The difference is probably caused by the EQ on the channels.

I don't know if this truly is what sabrehagen is listening to by default (which is why I keep caling it "the jplay sample", rather than "jplay output"), but it's different, and it's certainly not better quality.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 29 March, 2013, 02:51:54 PM
Thanks for the report, dhromed. The same applies to all other users who are analysing this.

I can't do the same test on jplay because jplay keeps saying that cannot connect to [some IP address] and I can't play anything with jplay.
Heh. More unsportsmanlike behaviour by Jplay? I thought it likes to market itself as being so unobtrusive – side-note: to things that almost certainly will not impact audio at all – that it even has a ‘hibernate mode’. So, why would it be trying to connect to the internet? Oh wait, >looking for logic in a product like this
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 29 March, 2013, 03:03:08 PM
1) I think too much trouble is going into coming up with bullet-proof arguments and if I didn't trust the members involved, I'd suspect concern trolling.

2) If sabrehagen were to playback his samples in foobar2000 and agree that each matches his expectations based on his double-blind testing then we don't need to be so cautious in distinguishing a "jplay sample" from "jplay output".
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 29 March, 2013, 03:21:47 PM
Yet another unsportsmanlike behaviour or the developers of JPlay can't understand elementary English? I speak Cantonese and I only got mediocre results in my English exams, but I still understand the meaning of TOS8.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/jplay/3.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/jplay/3.html)
Quote
I nearly got banned on the official foobar forum where asking questions related to sound quality is against their regulations
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: krabapple on 29 March, 2013, 03:29:43 PM
Would you mind translating that to layman a terms for me?


It (RMS power values) means the foobar sample is 'louder' than the Jplay sample.  An 'audible difference' result for ABX of these would be no surprise.

If these are of the same snippet of music, then they cannot possibly both be bit-perfect.  They are very significantly different.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 29 March, 2013, 05:02:28 PM
What if I record jplay output, save it as a flac, and play that back with jplay?

Here's a situation where I would be on-board with mindlessly doing this 100 times (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100067) and then auditioning the result at the end.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 29 March, 2013, 06:33:00 PM
Thanks for the input everyone is providing. You are all putting in some serious thought and work on this project.

I can't do the same test on jplay because jplay keeps saying that cannot connect to [some IP address] and I can't play anything with jplay. But at least my test showed that foobar2000 can playback music without any modification to the original file. Therefore... you see what I mean...


That issue should be easily fixed. They have a client-server option. Under Audio PC in the settings dialogue to you have This Computer or Search My LAN For PC selected? These seem like some of the most conclusive tests so far, and the best setup, so it would be very valuable to us I believe if you persist with trying to get JPLAY to work so some comparisons can be done!
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 29 March, 2013, 07:22:14 PM
sabrehagen:

Do you
agree that each [of the samples you provided] matches [your] expectations based on [your] double-blind testing
when played back through foobar2000???
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 29 March, 2013, 07:26:27 PM
sabrehagen:

Do you
agree that each [of the samples you provided] matches [your] expectations based on [your] double-blind testing
when played back through foobar2000???


yes, i believe they do.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 29 March, 2013, 07:47:00 PM
Thanks for providing the samples sabrehagen!
I listened both samples and i really wonder how anybody can think this huge difference can only come from some magic software acting and NOT altering the bits just making the bits more fluid.
At least now i understand when some audiophiles hear huge differences when using "tuning" software
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 29 March, 2013, 08:03:12 PM
yes, i believe they do.

Then it would seem that foobar2000 is not altering the sound but either VLC or Jplay is altering the sound, if not both.

Now it's time to figure out which is doing what.

At this point, I suggest you run each version through their respective player and record the output and then continue the process.  Repeat this a few times.  Feel free to do the same with foobar2000.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: xnor on 29 March, 2013, 09:49:49 PM
VLC definitely does alter the sound. I tried 44.1, 48 kHz, 16 to 32 bit WAVs containing a single impulse and VLC always outputs something that looks like the result of resampling (HF roll-off) or some other kind of processing including upsampling.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 29 March, 2013, 10:22:48 PM
All I can surmise is this latest attempt to justify paying for something that can be done by fb2k for free has failed.  As to jplay being a scam, I think this topic stands on the merits.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 30 March, 2013, 03:42:19 AM
VLC definitely does alter the sound. I tried 44.1, 48 kHz, 16 to 32 bit WAVs containing a single impulse and VLC always outputs something that looks like the result of resampling (HF roll-off) or some other kind of processing including upsampling.



VLC is highly configurable. Most likely your setup involved some DSP. Check the advanced config, there are lots of options.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 30 March, 2013, 07:06:06 AM
What if I record jplay output, save it as a flac, and play that back with jplay?

Here's a situation where I would be on-board with mindlessly doing this 100 times (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100067) and then auditioning the result at the end.


Looping jplay 100 times should obviously grant true cosmic god-like audio quality, should it not? 
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 30 March, 2013, 01:26:26 PM
Either my soundcard (M-Audio Fast Track Pro) does not allow simultaneous S/PDIF in/out,


It does, it seems that I made a bit-perfect recording within Audition via S/PDIF loopback using ASIO driver. But probably ASIO cannot be accessed by two programs at the same time. I can't get Audition to record using a non-ASIO method (which is Audition's own pseudo-ASIO driver "Audition 3.0 Windows Sound", I suspect their own version of ASIO4All). Any suggestions appreciated.


ASIO/KS/WASAPI etc are not absolutely necessary for bit-perfect transfer. Basic MME can get the job done as well, but you need to pay attention to the following (assuming you are using Windows7)

1. The test signal should not be very close to 0dBFS because Windows will automatically limit the volume to prevent clipping, resulting a non bit-perfect stream.

2. Always use 24-bit in your recording software because Windows will add dither in your recording if you are using 16-bit.

3. In Windows' audio playback and recording properties, make sure the sample rate is correctly configured and always use 24-bit to prevent dithering and resampling.

4. Bit-depth of your test signal should not be higher than 24-bit.

5. Correctly configure your SPDIF master/slave setting.

I uploaded a video to demonstrate bit-perfect playback (MPC-HC) and recording (RMAA) using MME:
http://youtu.be/Z8HD0YCvhv8 (http://youtu.be/Z8HD0YCvhv8)
Audio files:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/jcmh5f (http://www.sendspace.com/file/jcmh5f)

You have difficulties in accessing two or more ASIO applications is because your audio interface does not support multiclient ASIO. In order to support multiclient ASIO your audio interface need to have a hardware DSP mixer. As far as I know, interfaces including Creative/EMU kx-based soundcards and some models of X-Fi soundcards, RME HDSP series and interfaces from Echo support multiclient ASIO. USB interfaces usually have no multiclient ASIO support, including my Roland SC-D70.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 30 March, 2013, 02:28:22 PM
Suggesting a new fb2k slogan:

Ensuring zero sound improvement at zero cost
(both quantities user-tweakable, unidirectionally, to opposite signs)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: xnor on 30 March, 2013, 03:13:01 PM
VLC is highly configurable. Most likely your setup involved some DSP. Check the advanced config, there are lots of options.

But I didn't have anything checked/enabled but audio itself (the first option).


A quick check of JPlay trial version showed that it passed an impulse and pink noise unaltered.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 30 March, 2013, 04:30:22 PM
You have difficulties in accessing two or more ASIO applications is because your audio interface does not support multiclient ASIO. In order to support multiclient ASIO your audio interface need to have a hardware DSP mixer. As far as I know, interfaces including Creative/EMU kx-based soundcards and some models of X-Fi soundcards, RME HDSP series and interfaces from Echo support multiclient ASIO. USB interfaces usually have no multiclient ASIO support, including my Roland SC-D70.


Technically there is no mixing involved in accessing playback and capture streams with different applications as long as there is just one each. I am surprised asio would not allow such common scenario.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 30 March, 2013, 05:36:49 PM
Google "multiclient asio" will get some software-based multiclient asio driver discussions, but I don't know if they work or not.
Another alternative to do the recording test is REAPER, it is a frequently updated DAW supporting DS/MME/KS/WASAPI/ASIO and its trial version is fully functional.
http://reaper.fm (http://reaper.fm)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Mach-X on 31 March, 2013, 12:29:41 AM
This topic is hotter than when WMA gets brought up, definitely been interesting reading for a $99 piece of software that does nothing but mess with processor scheduling, which windows has already gotten pretty good at. $75 just bought me a used pair of paradigm atoms which has far more benefit to sound than this drivel.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 31 March, 2013, 12:44:51 AM
This topic is hotter than when WMA gets brought up, definitely been interesting reading for a $99 piece of software that does nothing but mess with processor scheduling, which windows has already gotten pretty good at. $75 just bought me a used pair of paradigm atoms which has far more benefit to sound than this drivel.


Well I'm surprised it took 8 pages of JPLAY bashing before somebody actually decided to run some scientific tests, when this is supposedly a scientific audio forum. Nonetheless, it was somebody from the JPLAY camp. Says a lot for attitudes around here.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 31 March, 2013, 12:57:30 AM
And look what the results were. People can be forgiven for not rushing to disprove wild claims when, as usual – and apparently this has to be stated over and over again – it’s the responsibility of the claimant to provide valid evidence, not the audience to disprove claims (with the convenient corollary that they should be assumed true in the absence of said disproof). In this case, such evidence must be produced by double-blind tests that are fully controlled for all possible confounding factors. That still hasn’t happened. Your test was found to have been invalidated by changes to the signal caused by VLC for some reason. Prior tests have shown either complete bit-identity or difference signals so far below the noise floor as to be completely insignificant (and probably easily remedied if it were to matter).

So, what is your point, other than an attempt to take the moral high ground despite not having anything concrete to stand on? …something that, as I already noted, does seem to be a particularly common meme among advocates for Jplay and other such products.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Mach-X on 31 March, 2013, 01:10:24 AM
Haha I'm still lost on what jplay actually DOES do... The proprietor claimed earlier on that it does not affect bitstream, only affects processor caching and other such nonsense. I can do that within windows task manager for free.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 31 March, 2013, 04:44:46 AM
VLC definitely does alter the sound. I tried 44.1, 48 kHz, 16 to 32 bit WAVs containing a single impulse and VLC always outputs something that looks like the result of resampling (HF roll-off) or some other kind of processing including upsampling.



VLC is highly configurable. Most likely your setup involved some DSP. Check the advanced config, there are lots of options.


I can't get VLC to output bit-perfect stream no matter what I set, I've turned off everything already (EQ, compressor, spatializer, replaygain, time stretching, normalize, dolby surround)

RMAA result:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/82931408@N02/...in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/82931408@N02/8605848480/in/photostream/)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: lvqcl on 31 March, 2013, 06:13:50 AM
Tools -> Messages; set Verbosity to 2(debug). You'll see something like:
Code: [Select]
main debug: filter(s) 'f32l'->'f32l' 52800 Hz->48000 Hz Mono->Mono
or:
Code: [Select]
main debug: filter(s) 'f32l'->'f32l' 48510 Hz->44100 Hz Mono->Mono

It seems that the reason for this is: http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25114 (http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25114)
Quote
the filter you see is to correct the tempo in case realtime vs. arriving time starts to get skewed.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 31 March, 2013, 06:24:46 AM
Thanks lvqcl, I can see similar messages as well.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 31 March, 2013, 06:55:12 PM
Make a 30 second sample of a song that you like, which shows the differences. Play it first in foobar2000, and record the output (if your soundcard has both a line-out and a line-in, simply use a male-male cable and connect the line-out to the line-in). Play it again with jplay, and record the output. Post the two recordings in the uploads (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=35) forum. Someone competent can then sample align the recordings and volume match them, and then compare them.


I have done exactly this and the two outputs to not match, there is significant difference. I used Audio DiffMaker to do the test. I have also posted in the uploads section: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=100156 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100156)

This is a sound output. Now how do I test the bitstream?


Obvious level mismatch:

Jplayer statistics:

   Left   Right
Min Sample Value:   -8468   -7478
Max Sample Value:   7747   8107
Peak Amplitude:   -11.75 dB   -12.13 dB
Possibly Clipped:   0   0
DC Offset:   0    0
Minimum RMS Power:   -84.24 dB   -88.94 dB
Maximum RMS Power:   -21.02 dB   -21.38 dB
Average RMS Power:   -29.42 dB   -30.17 dB
Total RMS Power:   -28.42 dB   -29.14 dB
Actual Bit Depth:   16 Bits   16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms


Foobar statistics:

   Left   Right
Min Sample Value:   -12652   -14834
Max Sample Value:   13255   15442
Peak Amplitude:   -7.86 dB   -6.53 dB
Possibly Clipped:   0   0
DC Offset:   0    0
Minimum RMS Power:   -85.54 dB   -88.7 dB
Maximum RMS Power:   -15.74 dB   -14.48 dB
Average RMS Power:   -26.31 dB   -26.18 dB
Total RMS Power:   -24.75 dB   -24.5 dB
Actual Bit Depth:   16 Bits   16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms


Excuse my ignorance, but is this difference in volume contributing to the large difference in the A-B file that DiffMaker outputs? That is, if they were closer to the same volume, would the difference be less, or does the amplitude of a waveform not affect this?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 31 March, 2013, 09:31:59 PM
Crap; and all this time I thought the comparison was between VLC and Jplay. Oh well.  I of there is a problem getting unadulterated playback from fb2k then you've come to the right place.

Do we still need a sample of the original or has this been deemed unnecessary?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 31 March, 2013, 09:37:18 PM
I see you added it. Thanks.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 31 March, 2013, 09:39:17 PM
I see you added it. Thanks.


Just added it then for your own testing purposes: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....mp;#entry829528 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100156&st=0&gopid=829528&#entry829528)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 01 April, 2013, 08:07:04 AM
Excuse my ignorance, but is this difference in volume contributing to the large difference in the A-B file that DiffMaker outputs?


Yes.

Quote
That is, if they were closer to the same volume, would the difference be less, or does the amplitude of a waveform not affect this?


A difference in amplitude is a difference, and one this large swamps out possible more subtle differences.

It is generally easy to control amplitude, and amplitudes should be generally matched within 0.1 dB or less in any listening test or application of analysis software.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 01 April, 2013, 08:09:21 AM
Excuse my ignorance, but is this difference in volume contributing to the large difference in the A-B file that DiffMaker outputs?


Yes.

Quote
That is, if they were closer to the same volume, would the difference be less, or does the amplitude of a waveform not affect this?


A difference in amplitude is a difference, and one this large swamps out possible more subtle differences.

It is generally easy to control amplitude, and amplitudes should be generally matched within 0.1 dB or less in any listening test or application of analysis software.


I'd really like to make some more accurate tests, but don't have the skills to do so. Can I put a call out to some people on the forum who are experienced in this area to run a quick test with the volume levels of the tracks matched?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 01 April, 2013, 08:13:49 AM
VLC is highly configurable. Most likely your setup involved some DSP. Check the advanced config, there are lots of options.

But I didn't have anything checked/enabled but audio itself (the first option).


A quick check of JPlay trial version showed that it passed an impulse and pink noise unaltered.


The impulse and pink noise tests sound very interesting. Can you please post some results?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: pdq on 01 April, 2013, 09:15:20 AM
I am totally confused as to what we have/have not established here. I believe the questions that need to be answered are:

Does JPlay sound different?

Does JPlay alter the bits going to the sound card?

Has either of these been answered?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 01 April, 2013, 09:20:20 AM
I am totally confused as to what we have/have not established here. I believe the questions that need to be answered are:

Does JPlay sound different?

Does JPlay alter the bits going to the sound card?

Has either of these been answered?


I can answer two thirds of your questions.

1. Yes it sounds different.
2. I don't know, my tests seem inaccurate due to my inexperience. I have requested others (who appear to have done their own tests) to post their findings. There is a contradiction in this whole idea though. If the bits are the same, it shouldn't sound any different. JPlay claims to sound better. I can hear it sounds different. Personally it's better, because I can hear things I've never heard, or can't hear with other players, but that is a subjective matter. Therefore, measuring the sound coming out of the sound card will show a different result, but the bits going in is where the real test needs to be done. I don't know how it's meant to be different. Maybe more accurate timing? I don't know; it's all a black box.
3. One, not the other.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 01 April, 2013, 10:04:27 AM
You need to perform the tests yourself. For example, I proved that foobar2000 and MPC-HC can output bit-perfect audio, but it is only true on my environment (OS, driver, hardware, configuration etc), it doesn't mean the same will apply to everyone automatically.

Maybe in your environment, JPlay really sounds better, but according to Hydrogenaudio's rule, you need to provide valid test samples and DBT results. I don't know if your playback/recording equipments are good enough for doing such tests or not but in my opinion, if you are willing to pay 99 EUR for JPlay, buying a 99 EUR audio interface with decent analog quality and bit-perfect digital I/O should not be a problem for you.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 01 April, 2013, 10:11:10 AM
I wonder also what we talk about here now.
We know that the recorded samples "3 copy.wav" and "4 copy.wav" when level-matched still sound completely different!
These huge differences between these 2 samples you provided can only be caused by hefty processing -> Something on your playback does alter the sound when played back with VLC to a not small degree.
Please try to get your playback right first before making any more speculations. Others already provided some hints how to get it right.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: pawelq on 01 April, 2013, 10:37:32 AM
I installed Jplay with an intention of testing it thoroughly, including recording the output via both S/PDIF and analog, and comparing to other players.

Here are some initial observations:

- the installer required computer restart, pretty unusual for a medi aplayer
- the antivirus had some doubts about the program
- the computer is no longer accessible via remote desktop
- there are signs of heavy processor load (for example, foobar visualisations became choppy when played over JPLAY) which are hidden from the Task Manager (I'll download Process Explorer onto this machine later)'

I think these are pretty worrying signs and I am leaning towards getting this software off my machine instead of doing any serious testing.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 01 April, 2013, 11:14:00 AM
I'd add one:
- foobar2000's playback time display become inaccurate and the seekbar moves jittery.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: pawelq on 01 April, 2013, 11:20:37 AM
- there are signs of heavy processor load (for example, foobar visualisations became choppy when played over JPLAY) which are hidden from the Task Manager (I'll download Process Explorer onto this machine later)


Nothing specific shows up in the Process Explorer, so maybe it's not processor load but yet another symptom (in addition to those described by bennetng) of messing up with foobar.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Fandango on 01 April, 2013, 12:02:20 PM
Jplay messes up ("tweaks") the process scheduling, shuts down services and and and... who knows what it could have done to your system. Hats off to all of you who dared to install such an instrusive software for conducting tests that you are not even obliged to do, since you aren't the ones with the bold claims.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 01 April, 2013, 12:11:33 PM
Modifying the system is not dangerous by itself. But in combination with its closed undocumented nature is what makes it a suspicious black box. But that is to some extent any closed-source software
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 01 April, 2013, 12:29:56 PM
I wonder also what we talk about here now.
We know that the recorded samples "3 copy.wav" and "4 copy.wav" when level-matched still sound completely different!


Someone did a listening test?

What I know is that when normalized, their stats are still somewhat different:

Foobar

   Left   Right
Min Sample Value:   -28149   -28981
Max Sample Value:   29490   29491
Peak Amplitude:   -.92 dB   -.92 dB
Possibly Clipped:   0   0
DC Offset:   -.001    0
Minimum RMS Power:   -41.01 dB   -44.16 dB
Maximum RMS Power:   -8.79 dB   -8.66 dB
Average RMS Power:   -19.09 dB   -20.12 dB
Total RMS Power:   -17.64 dB   -18.58 dB
Actual Bit Depth:   16 Bits   16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms

Jplay

   Left   Right
Min Sample Value:   -29490   -27202
Max Sample Value:   26978   29490
Peak Amplitude:   -.92 dB   -.92 dB
Possibly Clipped:   0   0
DC Offset:   0    0
Minimum RMS Power:   -73.37 dB   -77.64 dB
Maximum RMS Power:   -10.18 dB   -10.17 dB
Average RMS Power:   -18.58 dB   -18.95 dB
Total RMS Power:   -17.58 dB   -17.93 dB
Actual Bit Depth:   16 Bits   16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms

Looking at the FFTs of the two files when normalized, I see a lot of differences.  There are differences over wide bands that are on the order of several dB.

Quote
These huge differences between these 2 samples you provided can only be caused by hefty processing -> Something on your playback does alter the sound when played back with VLC to a not small degree.
Please try to get your playback right first before making any more speculations. Others already provided some hints how to get it right.



They not both anything like bit-perfect or even bits-close.

Without the file being played, it is hard to say which is more accurate.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 01 April, 2013, 01:42:19 PM
Someone did a listening test?

Are you seriously asking for some abx log? Just replaygain both files and listen. The voice coming in on second 9 sounds completely different!

Without the file being played, it is hard to say which is more accurate.

It is pointless to judge what is more accurate because we know already by some posts that the captured VLC playback is way to much off. I still don´t see the poster having fixed that playback issue.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 01 April, 2013, 02:01:30 PM
We also no nothing about the soundcard that was used to pass optical to the DAC or how the OS and various media players were configured.

In addition, it seems that superior sound will end up being associated with something that isn't bit-perfect.  While this is all fine and dandy, Jplay is claiming audible superiority through bit-perfection.  If people are being led to believe that audible differences are due to this rather than signal-processing then Jplay truly is a scam.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 01 April, 2013, 02:09:55 PM
Jplay will already be a scam even if it doesn’t alter signals on the way out. It doesn’t really matter how much the sellers do or don’t believe their own nonsense: if you’re selling something that runs contrary to any needs, physical facts, or common sense, while shouting about how your product is essential in all of these respects… you’re scamming, in effect. The question of whether this is being done deliberately is another thing I wish I could be a fly-on-the-wall to determine, but it wouldn’t change the end-result that buyers’ funds are being wasted and people are being misled by completely implausible nonsense left, right, and centre.

Maybe I should state that this is my personal opinion and is not valid for use by another umpteen concern-trolls to accuse the site of being Really Nasty.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Nessuno on 01 April, 2013, 02:26:33 PM
I installed Jplay with an intention of testing it thoroughly, including recording the output via both S/PDIF and analog, and comparing to other players.

Here are some initial observations:
[...]
I think these are pretty worrying signs and I am leaning towards getting this software off my machine instead of doing any serious testing.

Does it need to be installed and/or run with administrative privileges?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: pawelq on 01 April, 2013, 02:35:40 PM
Does it need to be installed and/or run with administrative privileges?




I don't think admin privileges were required to run, but they were probably required to install. I do not remember exactly.


I cannot check because I uninstalled the application and restored my system to an earlier date.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 01 April, 2013, 03:05:16 PM
I'd really like to make some more accurate tests, but don't have the skills to do so. Can I put a call out to some people on the forum who are experienced in this area to run a quick test with the volume levels of the tracks matched?


I've already pretty much done this by eyeballing the spectra. As I said, what's left is a non-subtle EQ modification with reduced bass and reduced highs.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Nessuno on 01 April, 2013, 03:19:42 PM
I don't think admin privileges were required to run, but they were probably required to install. I do not remember exactly.

I ask because it seems to me all the "tricks" they say they play to the system to gain resources, like run Jplay as a service, modify scheduler's queues or priority, shutdown other services etc... are impossible to be performed as normal or even power user and this may also lead to security or stability issues, at least if the PC is not used solely as a music player.
Could someone report the actual executable owner and/or which account JPlay is actually running under, and possibly other data like CPU time, memory usage etc?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 01 April, 2013, 03:51:37 PM
I ask because it seems to me all the "tricks" they say they play to the system to gain resources, like run Jplay as a service, modify scheduler's queues or priority, shutdown other services etc... are impossible to be performed as normal or even power user and this may also lead to security or stability issues, at least if the PC is not used solely as a music player.


That fine-tuning is something I could actually wish for ...
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Propheticus on 01 April, 2013, 04:27:14 PM
This thread has been a really amusing read. The amount of twists and turns in Josef's arguments is astounding. Almost every 'foul' (http://www.actdu.org.au/archives/actein_site/problems.html) that a debater can commit has been made. The blatant attempt to come across as the genuine and sincere bloke that gets burned down (victim role) made me snicker as well. The criticism was mostly that, criticism and (scientific) rigour. Not a personal attack, but he made it look as if it was.

All that most people (on multiple occasions) did was explaining why they thought it was a: doubtful a program like jplay indeed addresses a problem in pc audio (is it claiming to fix a problem that isn't there on modern computers?) and b: when assuming it does, asking if he could provide proof (of acceptable quality) that it actually improved sound quality above the threshold where it become noticeable to a double blind tester.

It's clear to me: SCAM. (personal opinion)
For anyone that has the energy to continue the debate and/or enjoys doing so, this might be a useful read: http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismatheist...bateTheists.htm (http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismatheiststheism/p/DebateTheists.htm). I see a lot of parallels in the jplayer 'believers' that came by to support it (what did he pay?) and certain (extremely) religious theists. They show the same logical flaws (http://atheism.about.com/od/logicalflawsinreasoning/Logical_Flaws_in_Reasoning_Flawed_Reasoning_Arguments_and_Attitudes.htm) in reasoning. Making reasoning with them neigh impossible.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 01 April, 2013, 06:18:09 PM
I wonder also what we talk about here now.
We know that the recorded samples "3 copy.wav" and "4 copy.wav" when level-matched still sound completely different!
These huge differences between these 2 samples you provided can only be caused by hefty processing -> Something on your playback does alter the sound when played back with VLC to a not small degree.
Please try to get your playback right first before making any more speculations. Others already provided some hints how to get it right.


There was no altering via VLC as the playback in the uploads forum was done through foobar and JPLAY as requested by a forum member:

Make a 30 second sample of a song that you like, which shows the differences. Play it first in foobar2000, and record the output. Play it again with jplay, and record the output. Post the two recordings in the uploads (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=35) forum. Someone competent can then sample align the recordings and volume match them, and then compare them.

I have done exactly this and the two outputs to not match, there is significant difference. I used Audio DiffMaker to do the test. I have also posted in the uploads section: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=100156 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100156)

This is a sound output. Now how do I test the bitstream?


I installed Jplay with an intention of testing it thoroughly, including recording the output via both S/PDIF and analog, and comparing to other players.

Here are some initial observations:

- the installer required computer restart, pretty unusual for a medi aplayer
- the antivirus had some doubts about the program
- the computer is no longer accessible via remote desktop
- there are signs of heavy processor load (for example, foobar visualisations became choppy when played over JPLAY) which are hidden from the Task Manager (I'll download Process Explorer onto this machine later)'

I think these are pretty worrying signs and I am leaning towards getting this software off my machine instead of doing any serious testing.


To demystify you observations:
1. JPLAY installs itself as a service, and as such, a restart is required. Pretty unusual sophistication for a media player, I would agree.
2. Because the program is small enough to be loaded into CPU cache, it is, and this can appear suspicious to an antivirus program. False positives are a bane of the software development world.
3. I would suggest this is a completely unrelated issue. You are probably looking for connections that aren't there.
4. It is hidden from task manager as it is a service, not a running user-level process. If you are so fond of task manager, take a look in the next tab, called services, and you'll see "JPLAYService". As for the lag, to programs are interfacing via a plugin system. This interface may have its shortcomings, possibly evident through visualisations lagging. I personally noticed the little graphic equaliser next to the progress bar wasn't as smooth. This is probably a foobar-JPLAY compatibility issue. Audio is uncompromised.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: pawelq on 01 April, 2013, 06:21:56 PM
3. I would suggest this is a completely unrelated issue. You are probably looking for connections that aren't there.



What I can say is that on the same day:

1. I connected to computer A remotely from computer B
2. installed JPlay on A
3. could not connect to A from B anymore
4. could not connect to a from C (this worked previously)
5. uninstalled JPlay from A and restored system to an earlier date (just in case)
6. was able to connect to A from B again.

Does not look unrelated.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 01 April, 2013, 06:27:49 PM
There was no altering via VLC as the playback in the uploads forum was done through foobar and JPLAY as requested by a forum member:

Then just replace VLC in my posts with foobar but fix your playback.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 01 April, 2013, 06:31:54 PM
3. I would suggest this is a completely unrelated issue. You are probably looking for connections that aren't there.



What I can say is that on the same day:

1. I connected to computer A remotely from computer B
2. installed JPlay on A
3. could not connect to A from B anymore
4. could not connect to a from C (this worked previously)
5. uninstalled JPlay from A and restored system to an earlier date (just in case)
6. was able to connect to A from B again.

Does not look unrelated.


If something happened to your remote connection configuration after installing JPLAY, then you wound back to a time before JPLAY and before the issues started happening, it doesn't mean JPLAY was the source of that issue.

At what point were you unable to reconnect? Before restart, after restart, was there a connection drop out or did you disconnect?

There was no altering via VLC as the playback in the uploads forum was done through foobar and JPLAY as requested by a forum member:

Then just replace VLC in my posts with foobar but fix your playback.


Are you referring to the playback levels? I believe I am getting unadulterated playback from both sources, just a different volume output. How do I calibrate volume levels other than turning the volume knob on my DAC to what sounds about right?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 01 April, 2013, 06:42:56 PM
To demystify you observations:
1. JPLAY installs itself as a service, and as such, a restart is required. Pretty unusual sophistication for a media player, I would agree.
Please demystify us with an explanation of why this is “sophistication” rather than pointlessness. Actually, not so far away, sophistry is a much better word.

Quote
This is probably a foobar-JPLAY compatibility issue.
I would suggest that the issue is not on fb2k’s side because it should not have to make allowances for a pointless front-end that installs itself as an intermediary and puts up a facade of providing better quality when fb2k is already doing everything perfectly well, as can any barely competent player.

Quote
Audio is uncompromised.
Indeed it is, regardless of whether or not one performs the redundant additional step of passing it through Jplay and all of its ‘optimisations’!

Until the issue with the blatantly mismatched samples can be resolved and a proper test provided (with its forgone conclusion), this thread might as well revert to its own ‘hibernate mode’.

There was no altering via VLC as the playback in the uploads forum was done through foobar and JPLAY as requested by a forum member:
Then just replace VLC in my posts with foobar but fix your playback.
Are you referring to the playback levels? I believe I am getting unadulterated playback from both sources, just a different volume output. How do I calibrate volume levels other than turning the volume knob on my DAC to what sounds about right?
If you say that you believe you are getting the same output from both players tested but at different levels, then you are not getting the same output. It should not be difficult to have both players output the signal unaltered at 0 dB, and again, until the levels are matched thusly, no tests are reliable. I say “should not” with an intrinsic bias towards reasonable and predictable behaviour, which might not be a fair assumption in the case of Jplay.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 01 April, 2013, 06:43:02 PM
Are you referring to the playback levels? I believe I am getting unadulterated playback from both sources, just a different volume output. How do I calibrate volume levels other than turning the volume knob on my DAC to what sounds about right?

This is becoming silly. We discuss over several pages now some differences that only come from your broken setup. It is not only different levels. When i play back your  Pretzel_Logic_Excerpt.wav it sounds completely different as your foobar capture, no matter what i play it back with.

Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 01 April, 2013, 06:44:22 PM
At what point were you unable to reconnect? Before restart, after restart, was there a connection drop out or did you disconnect?

This is off-topic to the discussion.  Either handle this matter through PM or take it up someplace else.  Further discussion on this matter will be binned.

Are you referring to the playback levels? I believe I am getting unadulterated playback from both sources, just a different volume output.

Assuming you are not instructing the player to adjust the gain, any volume change in the bitstream is adulteration.  In my book, having the player adjust the playback gain away from unity also constitutes adulteration.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 01 April, 2013, 07:06:20 PM
Are you referring to the playback levels? I believe I am getting unadulterated playback from both sources, just a different volume output. How do I calibrate volume levels other than turning the volume knob on my DAC to what sounds about right?

This is becoming silly. We discuss over several pages now some differences that only come from your broken setup. It is not only different levels. When i play back your  Pretzel_Logic_Excerpt.wav it sounds completely different as your foobar capture, no matter what i play it back with.

I was using a fresh install of foobar, having never used the software in my life before. No DSP, no nothing, just a stock install. I connected the output of my DAC to the line in on my on board sound card and recorded it there. Of course it isn't going to sound exactly the same as what you hear, as each system is unique. This is the result of the digital to analogue conversion process, hence the reason for the number of DACs in the world; there is a difference. This is why for about the *last three pages* I have requested a method to analyse the bitstream. This is the only data that is common to all systems as it is digital.

I don't have a broken setup, those tests were to purely illustrate a difference. I believe you have a flawed understanding of which data needs to be tested.

At what point were you unable to reconnect? Before restart, after restart, was there a connection drop out or did you disconnect?

This is off-topic to the discussion.  Either handle this matter through PM or take it up someplace else.  Further discussion on this matter will be binned.

Are you referring to the playback levels? I believe I am getting unadulterated playback from both sources, just a different volume output.

Assuming you are not instructing the player to adjust the gain, any volume change in the bitstream is adulteration.  In my book, having the player adjust the playback gain away from unity also constitutes adulteration.


Thank you, the remote desktop issue is nothing more than trivia.
If then, JPLAY's result has a difference in volume, we may never be able to get accurate tests.

I was hoping to get the assistance of some experienced audio testers on this forum to record the bitstream, as I do not have the setup or experience to do so. Until somebody has the requisite interest in this issue, can offer assistance, I will bow out of this discussion as it seems to be going nowhere, and fast.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 01 April, 2013, 07:14:37 PM
Of course it isn't going to sound exactly the same as what you hear, as each system is unique. This is the result of the digital to analogue conversion process, hence the reason for the number of DACs in the world; there is a difference.

Unless you can prove there is, you can't claim it.  We have covered imaginary differences in DAC quality with placebophiles TO DEATH.  I see no reason why we should even begin to take this silly detour.

Besides, you are claiming night and day differences and it appears as though you're getting them.  Any possible differences in competently performing DACs, assuming they can be demonstrated and verified in a properly conducted double blind test, will be subtle at best.

it seems to be going nowhere, and fast.

If you can't be bothered to attempt to understand what it is that you're testing before thinking you have the smoking gun then yes, this whole charade is pointless.

At a minimum you could have fed-back your samples into their respective players in order to show generational degradation as you were asked.

With a BSCS I would have expected better.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 01 April, 2013, 07:23:10 PM
Digital data is discrete, analogue is constantly varying. If you want to make comparisons without error, discrete data is the way to do it, hence the tests must be done before the digital to analogue conversion.

A BSCS teaches you to use tools. Go to the people who are experienced, seek assistance, save time, have it done properly to save error. You aren't going to put together the bricks and mortar of your own house when you're a property developer.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: pawelq on 01 April, 2013, 08:15:34 PM
At what point were you unable to reconnect? Before restart, after restart, was there a connection drop out or did you disconnect?

This is off-topic to the discussion.  Either handle this matter through PM or take it up someplace else.  Further discussion on this matter will be binned.

Sure, I am not going to waste time arguing why it is not likely to be just a coincidence that a system function that has worked for me for years flawlessly stopped working only during this one hour or so when JPlay was installed in the system.

It's just interesting why Sabrehagen, who paints himself as a JPlay user only, was so much interested in this technicality and so much sure it could not have happened.


   
I was hoping to get the assistance of some experienced audio testers on this forum to record the bitstream
Well I was going to do it, but my interest in JPlay is not strong enough to overcome my resistance aginst installing a piece of software that messes up my system. Sorry, I do other stuff on my computers, and I need them in working order, including remote desktop.

I must say that I was rather appalled seeing that a 99EUR audio player does not even have its own user interface, and I have to either use this weird "copy from another player" method, or use a good player as JPLAY's frontend, ending up with some functionalities of the good player negatively affected.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 01 April, 2013, 08:27:57 PM
I have to either use this weird "copy from another player" method, or use a good player as JPLAY's frontend, ending up with some functionalities of the good player negatively affected.
And nothing gained! Thus one is expected to pay 99 EUR for the software equivalent of a jar of Brilliant Pebbles or some other totally functionless gimmick to place on or near one’s normal player, fuelling the placebo effect with strong mental cues based upon the need to retroactively justify the purchase.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 01 April, 2013, 08:28:14 PM
FWIW, pawelg, I believe you.

It was my attempt to get to the bottom of what software was affecting the bitstream instead of veering off on a tangent about what the software may or may not be doing to the non-sound-related portion of your OS.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Takla on 01 April, 2013, 09:15:28 PM
Are you seriously asking for some abx log? Just replaygain both files and listen. The voice coming in on second 9 sounds completely different!


Are claims of difference only required to be substantiated if asserted by persons that the peer group doesn't much like?  TOS#8 does use the word "must" but in practice there often seems to be an invisible rider "unless you're confirming our expectations or bashing someone we don't like".

I would be surprised if Wombat's assertion was proven to be false, but perhaps applying the terms of service in a non-discriminatory manner would prevent threads veering off topic (it broke my remote desktop and ate my hamster, therefore it is evil and evil stuff sounds bad... the same ...or different ...or something) and also reduce the evident temptation to just join the queue, pick up a rock and throw it (he said jehovah!).
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 01 April, 2013, 09:25:08 PM
I would be surprised if Wombat's assertion was proven to be false

Wombat, please provide an ABX log in order to validate Takla's suspicion.

I won't dignify the rest of the ironical post.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 01 April, 2013, 09:48:20 PM
Did anyone even bother to listen these samples besides dhromed and has the ability to qualify it?
Everybody should be able to abx this with his PC-Speakers as i did now, not even Headphones needed.

I needed to cut 1.38 seconds from the foobar sample and 92ms from the Jplay sample to have similar beginnings to prevent me from cheating. Replaygained foobar test:
Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.1.16
2013/04/02 03:42:31

File A: C:\Brezel Jplay\testfoo.flac
File B: C:\Brezel Jplay\testJ.flac

03:42:31 : Test started.
03:42:44 : 01/01  50.0%
03:42:54 : 02/02  25.0%
03:43:04 : 03/03  12.5%
03:43:14 : 04/04  6.3%
03:43:24 : 05/05  3.1%
03:43:37 : 06/06  1.6%
03:43:46 : 07/07  0.8%
03:43:55 : 08/08  0.4%
03:44:03 : 09/09  0.2%
03:44:10 : 10/10  0.1%
03:44:14 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 02 April, 2013, 04:48:10 AM
If then, JPLAY's result has a difference in volume, we may never be able to get accurate tests.


The difference is in EQ, not merely volume. In fact there is so much EQ going on that it's next to impossible to accurately level match them.


Wombat, do you agree the jplay sample has much reduced bass and treble?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Nessuno on 02 April, 2013, 05:25:32 AM
all the "tricks" they say they play to the system to gain resources, like run Jplay as a service, modify scheduler's queues or priority, shutdown other services etc...


That fine-tuning is something I could actually wish for ...

In order to improve SQ? And even if, have you lost your PC Admin passwd?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 02 April, 2013, 05:51:56 AM
all the "tricks" they say they play to the system to gain resources, like run Jplay as a service, modify scheduler's queues or priority, shutdown other services etc...


That fine-tuning is something I could actually wish for ...

In order to improve SQ? And even if, have you lost your PC Admin passwd?


In order to prevent stuttering/dropouts on old cheap hardware. Hardware-upgrading a silent PC could easily cost more than 99 currency units. fb2k does offer provisions to set priority to the playback chain, but for the computer I just tried to get working, that is actually not enough.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 02 April, 2013, 06:05:45 AM
How do I calibrate volume levels other than turning the volume knob on my DAC to what sounds about right?


In foobar2000, the ABX comparator will align volumes. (Likely less precise if the files are EQ'ed very different, though.)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 02 April, 2013, 06:44:52 AM
all the "tricks" they say they play to the system to gain resources, like run Jplay as a service, modify scheduler's queues or priority, shutdown other services etc...


That fine-tuning is something I could actually wish for ...

In order to improve SQ? And even if, have you lost your PC Admin passwd?


In order to prevent stuttering/dropouts on old cheap hardware. Hardware-upgrading a silent PC could easily cost more than 99 currency units. fb2k does offer provisions to set priority to the playback chain, but for the computer I just tried to get working, that is actually not enough.

How old and cheap the hardware you are using? The last time I experienced stuttering/dropouts (when I believed I have correctly configured my system) was a Pentium II 400, 192MB RAM PC, playing APE files with "Extra High" compression mode in foobar2000, with SSRC turned on.

When I upgraded my system to P4 2.8G and 512MB RAM in 2003 the task above was not a problem anymore.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 02 April, 2013, 06:52:21 AM
In foobar2000, the ABX comparator will align volumes.


Yoou mean the "use Replaygain" checkbox? I thought that meant "use the existing RG tags", not "scan both files and adjust volume"


([RG is ] Likely less precise if the files are EQ'ed very different, though.)


That is a good experiment that I will try later.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Propheticus on 02 April, 2013, 07:22:07 AM
Ok so i ran the ABX test with the pretzel logic files (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100156) three times: Replaygained individually, Replaygained as 1 album, and without. The results were easily recognizable. So there indeed seems to have been some processing and/or a level mismatch.

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.2.4
2013/04/02 13:06:04

File A: Z:\Downloads\testSounds\foobaroutput.wav
File B: Z:\Downloads\testSounds\jplayoutput.wav

13:06:04 : Test started.
13:07:13 : 01/01  50.0%
13:07:29 : 02/02  25.0%
13:07:41 : 02/03  50.0%
13:08:21 : 03/04  31.3%
13:08:54 : 04/05  18.8%
13:09:21 : 05/06  10.9%
13:09:37 : 06/07  6.3%
13:09:54 : 07/08  3.5%
13:10:10 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 7/8 (3.5%)
Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.2.4
2013/04/02 13:11:26

File A: Z:\Downloads\testSounds\foobaroutput.wav
File B: Z:\Downloads\testSounds\jplayoutput.wav

13:11:26 : Test started.
13:11:45 : 01/01  50.0%
13:11:56 : 02/02  25.0%
13:12:07 : 03/03  12.5%
13:12:15 : 04/04  6.3%
13:12:24 : 05/05  3.1%
13:12:35 : 06/06  1.6%
13:12:50 : 07/07  0.8%
13:13:03 : 08/08  0.4%
13:13:08 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 8/8 (0.4%)
Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.2.4
2013/04/02 13:14:07

File A: Z:\Downloads\testSounds\foobaroutput.wav
File B: Z:\Downloads\testSounds\jplayoutput.wav

13:14:07 : Test started.
13:14:22 : 01/01  50.0%
13:14:31 : 02/02  25.0%
13:14:39 : 03/03  12.5%
13:14:45 : 04/04  6.3%
13:14:58 : 05/05  3.1%
13:15:06 : 06/06  1.6%
13:15:17 : 07/07  0.8%
13:15:26 : 08/08  0.4%
13:15:28 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 8/8 (0.4%)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 02 April, 2013, 07:38:26 AM
I have a hard time believing you actually missed one.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 02 April, 2013, 07:40:28 AM
In order to prevent stuttering/dropouts on old cheap hardware. Hardware-upgrading a silent PC could easily cost more than 99 currency units. fb2k does offer provisions to set priority to the playback chain, but for the computer I just tried to get working, that is actually not enough.


The dirt-cheap way of upgrading the hardware in this respect is to increase size of the playback (DMA) buffer in the playback chain. Any HW from the last 20 years wil easily handle 192/24 long-latency playback (no DSP/resampling, of course).
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Propheticus on 02 April, 2013, 07:49:48 AM
I have a hard time believing you actually missed one.


Haha me too. It was my first time ABX'ing though. So I was still figuring out how to best compare. (i.e. A,X,B,Y or A,B,X,Y .. setting a good starting point and listening a few seconds of each seems to hit the spot)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 02 April, 2013, 10:25:57 AM
Anyone finding the jplay sample more revealing of fine details in the music that is not present in the other sample?  We were told they really were representative of the way they sounded during the initial DBT conducted by sabrehagen.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: lvqcl on 02 April, 2013, 11:42:49 AM
I played Pretzel_Logic_Excerpt.wav with foobar2000 1.2.4 and recorded the sound with rectest.exe (http://www.un4seen.com/forum/?topic=11170) using WASAPI loopback device.

Bit-identical.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: krabapple on 02 April, 2013, 12:08:03 PM
Someone did a listening test?

Are you seriously asking for some abx log? Just replaygain both files and listen. The voice coming in on second 9 sounds completely different!

Without the file being played, it is hard to say which is more accurate.

It is pointless to judge what is more accurate because we know already by some posts that the captured VLC playback is way to much off. I still don´t see the poster having fixed that playback issue.



Folks,  Arny's measurements are for foobar vs Jplay and the samples are foobar vs Jplay...why does VLC keep coming into it?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 02 April, 2013, 12:18:04 PM
If you read previous posts, the test was originally conducted on Jplay vs. VLC, the latter of which seems to alter output in at least some default cases. I am sure you can find discussion describing the switch from VLC to foobar2000. Valid results describing double-blind comparison of Jplay to any bit-perfect second player are still missing, not very surprisingly.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 02 April, 2013, 12:27:03 PM
In order to prevent stuttering/dropouts on old cheap hardware. Hardware-upgrading a silent PC could easily cost more than 99 currency units. fb2k does offer provisions to set priority to the playback chain, but for the computer I just tried to get working, that is actually not enough.


The dirt-cheap way of upgrading the hardware in this respect is to increase size of the playback (DMA) buffer in the playback chain. Any HW from the last 20 years wil easily handle 192/24 long-latency playback (no DSP/resampling, of course).


... tried this while fb2k is also monitoring a media library of a hundred thousand items?

(I'm trying to get a Dell Mini 9 (Intel Atom-based, SSD, totally fanless) working.  It takes six seconds performing a simple search. Longer buffer even caused stuttering at track change with some fb2k versions around 1.2.  Certainly not much hope of getting foo_hdcd working, that's for sure ... but now I am drifting way off topic.)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: krabapple on 02 April, 2013, 01:04:59 PM
I've run an EQ comparison of the two uploaded samples (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100156) versus Pretzel_Logic.wav  as the reference audio.  The two samples (3 Copy.wav , which was foobar, and 4 Copy.wav , which wasJplay) were first scanned with replaygain, which found Jplay to be 3.6dB lower than foobar.  The .wav samples (and the reference .wav) were then scanned using Audition 1.0's Frequency Analysis tool, using a Blackmann_Harris FFT widnows size of 4096.  .  Data (average level in dB at each frequency sampling point) were dumped to Excel, and the difference between sample and reference was calculated for each channel of each sample.  Difference values for Jplay were adjusted upward by 3.6 dB as per replaygain.  Difference values from 20Hz-22 kHz were then plotted in Excel.  Showing the left channel only. 

This is a difference graph, where the Pretzel_Logic.wav file is the reference.  A bit-perfect output of the reference would be a straight line overlaid on the X axis.  Output that was merely raised or lowered in overall level compared  to reference would show a straight line above or below the X axis.  Clearly neither of these is a bit perfect output of the original, nor are they simply raised or lowered in overall amplitude.  Both have considerable, and similar EQ added. The EQ is not quite identical for both, as the two curves do not completely overlap even with level-matching...however, this could be because the two samples are not exactly the same snippet of the reference.  If someone wants to edit them to match, and post them, I will re-run the analysis. 

In any case I conclude that saberhagen has not configured his system, or his players, for bit-perfect output, based on the shape of these curves. And foobar2k certainly can be so configured on all my PCs -- I wouldn't be able to stream DTS or AC3 from them otherwise.


The graph can be viewed here:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=100229 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100229)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 02 April, 2013, 01:17:19 PM
... tried this while fb2k is also monitoring a media library of a hundred thousand items?

(I'm trying to get a Dell Mini 9 (Intel Atom-based, SSD, totally fanless) working.  It takes six seconds performing a simple search. Longer buffer even caused stuttering at track change with some fb2k versions around 1.2.  Certainly not much hope of getting foo_hdcd working, that's for sure ... but now I am drifting way off topic.)


Well, clogging your computer with maintaining library of that size is hardly a question of playback hardware requirements.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 02 April, 2013, 01:19:34 PM
sabrehagen,

I would like to assist you to do a recording test, please provide the information below:
1. Your OS version
2. The recording software you are using

Quote
I was using a fresh install of foobar, having never used the software in my life before. No DSP, no nothing, just a stock install. I connected the output of my DAC to the line in on my on board sound card and recorded it there.

3. Does it mean onboard sound digital output> DAC digital input> DAC analog output > onboard sound analog input?

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=100230 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100230)
Please do the recording test again, using the same procedure as your Pretzel Logic test with the files I uploaded above. I need the files recorded in both 44khz and 48khz, that means you need to record 1644sweep.wv in 44khz and 48khz, and record 1648sweep.wv in 44khz and 48khz, using foobar without Jplay and foobar with Jplay.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Gecko on 02 April, 2013, 01:26:40 PM
Thanks for the graph krabapple! Given the magnitude of difference between JPlay and foobar, it is not surprising that people are able to ABX.

Maybe some gain-aware loudness function from the soundcard/driver was active?

The difference between the original and the JPlay sample is also clearly audible (replaygain for level matching, manually aligned).

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.2.2
2013/04/02 19:08:26

File A: E:\tmp\4_Copy_jplay.wav
File B: E:\tmp\Pretzel_cut.wav

19:08:26 : Test started.
19:08:39 : 01/01  50.0%
19:08:43 : 02/02  25.0%
19:08:48 : 03/03  12.5%
19:08:55 : 04/04  6.3%
19:09:01 : 05/05  3.1%
19:09:09 : 06/06  1.6%
19:09:18 : 07/07  0.8%
19:09:25 : 08/08  0.4%
19:09:35 : 09/09  0.2%
19:09:46 : 10/10  0.1%
19:09:50 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 02 April, 2013, 03:28:15 PM
I can't abx the jplay sample (4_Copy) and the Pretzel logic excerpt. Maybe my ears are waxed up.

I manually edited the RG values to +3 and -7 respectively, at which point they sounded pretty much the same to me. A true RG scan came up with +8 and -0.49. Not bad for earballing it, I guess?

The difference between 4_copy and 3_copy is much greater than 4_copy and Excerpt.

The Excerpt has its phase inverted-- at least that's what I see in Audacity.

Quote
the two samples are not exactly the same snippet of the reference.

the jplay sample lacks a drumroll at the start, and the very first portion of a crash hit, which could be crucial.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: krabapple on 02 April, 2013, 04:03:22 PM
Thanks for the graph krabapple! Given the magnitude of difference between JPlay and foobar, it is not surprising that people are able to ABX.


You mean the differences in bass and midrange frequencies, compared to the reference, when the samples are level matched?  Because the Foobar and Jplay samples are otherwise pretty objectively similar from about 3kHz on up, when level matched this way.  And as I noted, we still need to rule out the effects of the two samples not being from exactly the same section of the reference track.  I expect that effect to be small -- the measurements are an average over the whole length of the section -- but I won't rule it out.



Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Gecko on 02 April, 2013, 04:27:31 PM
Yes, basically I mean the difference between the red and black line. Eyeballing the graphs, there's a ca. 6dB drop in the 1kHz range over at least 2 octaves and ca. 3dB boost in the bass. IMO that's quite a lot and as others have demonstrated, this is audible. I'm too lazy to time align the samples so no claims about audibility from me.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 02 April, 2013, 04:35:33 PM
I've added my own graphs (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100229#entry829821) from audacity (and a little help of photoshop) after earballing the volumes.

I was mistaken before; it's the jplay sample that has its phase inverted. I could then fairly accurately align them.

The excerpt and jplay samples are nearly the same. As I said, I cannot ABX them after volume leveling. The foobar sample has had some extensive work done on it.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 02 April, 2013, 04:35:37 PM
Well, clogging your computer with maintaining library of that size is hardly a question of playback hardware requirements.


But actually I do find it quite convenient to have the foobar2000 application open when I use it for playback. Don't think that is too much to ask. 

So that is part of the issue: I would have wanted a way to ensure that playback has sufficient priority not to stutter, period, and everything else shares the rest of the juice. On the surface of it, an application granting me that level of access to Windows' priorities, would be A Good Thing. I could even have tried JPlay hadn't it been for the price and the smell of
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6...oll_Swindle.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6f/The_Great_Rock_%27n%27_Roll_Swindle.jpg)


(The Right Thing To Do would be to implement a proper database solution. fb2k is not efficient: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....rt=#entry811910 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=96984&pid=811910&mode=threaded&start=#entry811910) .)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 02 April, 2013, 04:41:09 PM
The excerpt and jplay samples are nearly the same. As I said, I cannot ABX them after volume leveling. The foobar sample has had some extensive work done on it.
The priority now absolutely needs to be determining the source of those introduced differences. I would like to assume they were completely unintentional, in which case, something else was confounding the signal in sabrehagen’s setup. For the record again, foobar2000 is a perfectly competent player that does not have to do anything extra to ensure unadulterated playback, and it does not demand 95 EUR for the privilege.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: krabapple on 02 April, 2013, 04:46:04 PM
I trimmed all the samples to be the same start/stop, then tried ABXing the two samples vs reference, using fooABX + replaygain


foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v1.2.2
2013/04/02 16:30:39

File A: 3_Copy_edit.flac
File B: Pretzel_Logic_Excerp_edit.flac

16:30:39 : Test started.
16:30:59 : 01/01  50.0%
16:31:05 : 02/02  25.0%
16:31:11 : 03/03  12.5%
16:31:17 : 04/04  6.3%
16:31:21 : 05/05  3.1%
16:31:27 : 06/06  1.6%
16:31:32 : 07/07  0.8%
16:31:35 : 08/08  0.4%
16:31:38 : 09/09  0.2%
16:31:40 : 10/10  0.1%
16:31:42 : 11/11  0.0%
16:31:46 : 12/12  0.0%
16:31:50 : 13/13  0.0%
16:31:52 : 14/14  0.0%
16:31:54 : 15/15  0.0%
16:31:57 : 16/16  0.0%
16:32:12 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 16/16 (0.0%)

Easy.

ABXing Jplay vs reference was harder...I had to focus on the very first syllables of the singing to get this score

foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v1.2.2
2013/04/02 16:40:40

File A: 4_Copy_edit.flac
File B: Pretzel_Logic_Excerp_edit.flac

16:40:40 : Test started.
16:41:04 : 01/01  50.0%
16:41:10 : 02/02  25.0%
16:41:19 : 03/03  12.5%
16:41:26 : 03/04  31.3%
16:41:29 : 04/05  18.8%
16:41:36 : 05/06  10.9%
16:42:06 : 06/07  6.3%
16:42:10 : 07/08  3.5%
16:42:13 : 08/09  2.0%
16:42:20 : 09/10  1.1%
16:42:24 : 10/11  0.6%
16:42:49 : 11/12  0.3%
16:43:04 : 11/13  1.1%
16:43:08 : 12/14  0.6%
16:43:14 : 13/15  0.4%
16:43:19 : 14/16  0.2%
16:43:32 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 14/16 (0.2%)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: krabapple on 02 April, 2013, 05:24:49 PM
I've added my own graphs (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100229#entry829821) from audacity (and a little help of photoshop) after earballing the volumes.

I was mistaken before; it's the jplay sample that has its phase inverted. I could then fairly accurately align them.

The excerpt and jplay samples are nearly the same. As I said, I cannot ABX them after volume leveling. The foobar sample has had some extensive work done on it.


Pretty much the same here (though I could ABX both vs reference, the Jplay/source ABX was much harder) .  Hmm... could be I copied the wrong data over for the reference....I'm redoing it now, using excerpt- and level-matched files

(later) Yup, definitely had the wrong data in the first graph -- this new one shows Jplay to be much more like the reference than foobar in the crucial upper bass and midrange.  Of course, foobar should NOT be changing the EQ like this unless it's been set to do so...

This version of the graph starts with the files all edited in Audition so the same slice of audio is used for all three (reference, foobar and Jplay);  the files are then replaygain scanned to get the RG values, then Audition 'Frequency Analysis' scanned to get the avg level/frequency data;, then those data are dumped to Excel, then the RP values (-0.65 for the reference, +5.32 for foobar, +8.85 for Jplay)  are added to the data, and THEN the difference between sample and reference is calculated and plotted.

The corrected graph is here
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=829831 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100229&view=findpost&p=829831)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: lvqcl on 02 April, 2013, 05:29:09 PM
Also it seems that mid and side channels of 3_Copy_edit were modified differently, so it's not just an EQ.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: krabapple on 02 April, 2013, 05:33:07 PM
Also it seems that mid and side channels of 3_Copy_edit were modified differently, so it's not just an EQ.


what do 'mid' and 'side' mean here?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mitchco on 02 April, 2013, 05:43:24 PM
Lynx Hilo’s USB driver supports multi-client ASIO applications.  That means I can play a song in Foobar (v 1.2.4) while recording it’s bitstream in Audacity (ASIO version 1.3.13 alpha).

Following the same procedure as outlined here: JRiver Mac vs JRiver Windows Sound Quality Comparison (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/513-jriver-mac-vs-jriver-windows-sound-quality-comparison/), I was able to record Foobar (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/Foobarrecording_zps1f2ee020.jpg), then record JPlay (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JPlayrecording_zps83486009.jpg) (v5.1), using the following settings (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/jplaysettings_zps083aa8b6.jpg)

I have uploaded the two recorded samples, plus the original.  I edited the recorded samples so that they start and end at the same times, including the original.  The original flac was converted to wav using JRiver MC18 as JPlay can’t play flac. Note, other than inverting tracks in Audacity, nothing else was applied (i.e. no gain adjustments).

Foobar recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/Foobar%20recording%2060s.wav). 
JPlay recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/JPlay%20recording%2060s.wav). 
Original recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/original%20refugee%2060s.wav).

Comparing Foobar recording to the original file (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/Originalvsjplay_zps4251a330.jpg)
Bit identical.

Comparing Foobar recording to JPlay recording (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/FoobarvsJPlay_zps7a294978.jpg)
Bit identical.

For fun, comparing JRiver MC 18 on the Mac to JPlay on Windows (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JRiverMacvsJPlay_zpsf4c04919.jpg)
Bit identical.

For whatever reason, Foobar recording’s polarity was inverted compared to JPlay and JRiver (both Mac and PC versions) and the original file.  I had a look at the Foobar prefs, but could not find anywhere where this could be happening.

The JRiver Mac and Windows recordings can also be downloaded.  These are edited the same as the Foobar and JPlay recordings.
JRiver Mac recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/JRiver%20Mac%20Recording%2060s.wav).
Jriver Windows recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/JRiver%20Windows%20Recording%2060s.wav). 

I might try the different engines in JPlay to see what, if any, effect they have on the bitstream. 
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 02 April, 2013, 05:51:14 PM
Thanks for the results.

I have to wonder whether, somewhere, someone is decrying these sorts of tests with stern admonitions that intercepting the stream in such a way is a fraudulent tactic that destroys Jplay’s ability to work its magic. Sort of a ‘Don’t put your local deity to the test’ thing… coincidentally.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: lvqcl on 02 April, 2013, 05:52:19 PM
what do 'mid' and 'side' mean here?

mid and side channels:

mid = (left + right)/2, side = (left - right)/2
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: lvqcl on 02 April, 2013, 05:57:42 PM
Lynx Hilo’s USB driver supports multi-client ASIO applications.  That means I can play a song in Foobar (v 1.2.4) while recording it’s bitstream in Audacity (ASIO version 1.3.13 alpha).
[...]
For whatever reason, Foobar recording’s polarity was inverted compared to JPlay and JRiver (both Mac and PC versions) and the original file.  I had a look at the Foobar prefs, but could not find anywhere where this could be happening.


Did you use ASIO output plugin for foobar2000? Is it possible to test foobar2000 with DirectSound or WASAPI output?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 02 April, 2013, 06:01:49 PM
Thanks mitchco! I did read your comparison on computeraudiophile already. Nice work and amusing to read the resulting comments and weird theories why some things like MAC and Jplay still sounds better!
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mitchco on 02 April, 2013, 06:44:46 PM
Lynx Hilo’s USB driver supports multi-client ASIO applications.  That means I can play a song in Foobar (v 1.2.4) while recording it’s bitstream in Audacity (ASIO version 1.3.13 alpha).
[...]
For whatever reason, Foobar recording’s polarity was inverted compared to JPlay and JRiver (both Mac and PC versions) and the original file.  I had a look at the Foobar prefs, but could not find anywhere where this could be happening.


Did you use ASIO output plugin for foobar2000? Is it possible to test foobar2000 with DirectSound or WASAPI output?


I forgot to mention I used the ASIO output plugin for foobar2000.  If I have time, I will try DS.

Thanks for the results.

I have to wonder whether, somewhere, someone is decrying these sorts of tests with stern admonitions that intercepting the stream in such a way is a fraudulent tactic that destroys Jplay’s ability to work its magic. Sort of a ‘Don’t put your local deity to the test’ thing… coincidentally.


I have the Lynx Hilo patched for digital loopback (http://www.lynxstudio.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4771&title=an-educational-question) where the output of the music player is going through the Hilo and routed back to the input of Audacity.  However, JPlay also supplies it's own drivers (also shows up in foobar (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/drivers_zpsfaf63497.jpg)).  Perhaps this is the magic (and possibly the JPlay engines).  I will run a few more loopback tests to see using the JPlay driver.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 02 April, 2013, 06:51:28 PM
However, JPlay also supplies it's own drivers (also shows up in foobar (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/drivers_zpsfaf63497.jpg)).  Perhaps this is the magic (and possibly the JPlay engines).  I will run a few more loopback tests to see using the JPlay driver.
The only ‘magic’ that’s possible is deliberate alteration of the stream, in which case JPLAY (I just realised it’s stylised using cruise-control) would be answering the title of this thread in the affirmative.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: krabapple on 02 April, 2013, 08:56:28 PM
added a third result to the graph , basically recording the output of my foobar2k setup on a work computer  (not set to be bit-perfect, it converts everything to 48kHz)

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=829876 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100229&view=findpost&p=829876)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mitchco on 03 April, 2013, 12:39:27 AM
Lynx Hilo’s USB driver supports multi-client ASIO applications.  That means I can play a song in Foobar (v 1.2.4) while recording it’s bitstream in Audacity (ASIO version 1.3.13 alpha).

Following the same procedure as outlined here: JRiver Mac vs JRiver Windows Sound Quality Comparison (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/513-jriver-mac-vs-jriver-windows-sound-quality-comparison/), I was able to record Foobar (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/Foobarrecording_zps1f2ee020.jpg), then record JPlay (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JPlayrecording_zps83486009.jpg) (v5.1), using the following settings (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/jplaysettings_zps083aa8b6.jpg)

I have uploaded the two recorded samples, plus the original.  I edited the recorded samples so that they start and end at the same times, including the original.  The original flac was converted to wav using JRiver MC18 as JPlay can’t play flac. Note, other than inverting tracks in Audacity, nothing else was applied (i.e. no gain adjustments).

Foobar recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/Foobar%20recording%2060s.wav). 
JPlay recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/JPlay%20recording%2060s.wav). 
Original recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/original%20refugee%2060s.wav).

Comparing Foobar recording to the original file (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/Originalvsjplay_zps4251a330.jpg)
Bit identical.

Comparing Foobar recording to JPlay recording (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/FoobarvsJPlay_zps7a294978.jpg)
Bit identical.

For fun, comparing JRiver MC 18 on the Mac to JPlay on Windows (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JRiverMacvsJPlay_zpsf4c04919.jpg)
Bit identical.

For whatever reason, Foobar recording’s polarity was inverted compared to JPlay and JRiver (both Mac and PC versions) and the original file.  I had a look at the Foobar prefs, but could not find anywhere where this could be happening.

The JRiver Mac and Windows recordings can also be downloaded.  These are edited the same as the Foobar and JPlay recordings.
JRiver Mac recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/JRiver%20Mac%20Recording%2060s.wav).
Jriver Windows recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/JRiver%20Windows%20Recording%2060s.wav). 

I might try the different engines in JPlay to see what, if any, effect they have on the bitstream.


Testing continued...

I changed the JPlay engine from Beach to River (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JPlaybeach_zpsb4835a75.jpg) and recorded in Audacity.

Comparing JPlay Beach engine to JPlay River engine (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JPlayRivervsBeachengines_zps06cde1d6.jpg)
Bit identical.

Next up using the JPlay driver in Foobar (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/FoobarJPlaydriver_zps1ad5d7c0.jpg) and another recording in Audacity (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/FoobarJPlaydriverrecording_zpsf1e5ea7c.jpg).

Comparing Foobar using JPlay driver to the orginal recording (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/FoobarJplaydrivervsorginal_zps3bcceba5.jpg)
Bit identical.

Finally, using the JPlay driver in JRiver (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JRiverJPlaydriver_zps472d5387.jpg) and another recording (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JRiverJPlaydriverrecording_zps032cd50e.jpg).

Comparing JRiver MC 18 using JPlay driver to the orginal recording (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JriverJplaydrivervsorginal_zpsbdad771a.jpg)
Bit identical.

The recorded samples:

JPlay with Beach engine 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/JPlay%20recording%20beach%2060s.wav)
Foobar with JPlay driver 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/Foobar%20JPlay%20driver%20recording%2060s.wav)
JRiver with JPlay driver 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/JRiver%20JPlay%20recording%2060s.wav)

Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 03 April, 2013, 02:17:17 AM
My previous attempt (after tweaking my comodo firewall) to test Jplay also showed bit-perfect result when using Jplay's ASIO mode, but not bit-perfect with KS mode. KS mode will truncate 24-bit signal to 16-bit without dithering, other than this KS is basically same as ASIO, I mean, I cannot observe any other processing including volume, EQ, stereo treatment and so on.

That's why I want sabrehagen to test his system using my signal. Even though he is not recording in digital, the differences of Jplay vs foobar should not be so big.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Nessuno on 03 April, 2013, 02:42:33 AM
But actually I do find it quite convenient to have the foobar2000 application open when I use it for playback. Don't think that is too much to ask.

Well, I don't use Fb2K myself and don't know how it internally works, but if this feature actually overloads a CPU (whichever!) so much to cause issues with his own playing function, I think it's time for you to switch to a more properly designed piece of software! The like of Jplay, for example...
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 03 April, 2013, 03:53:15 AM
Hi bennetng,

Sure, I'd like to test it again. If, like people's analysis shows here, my version of foobar is altering the sound, I would like to configure it so that it doesn't do so, and to an ABX test again.

sabrehagen,

I would like to assist you to do a recording test, please provide the information below:
1. Your OS version
2. The recording software you are using

Quote
I was using a fresh install of foobar, having never used the software in my life before. No DSP, no nothing, just a stock install. I connected the output of my DAC to the line in on my on board sound card and recorded it there.

3. Does it mean onboard sound digital output> DAC digital input> DAC analog output > onboard sound analog input?


As for your questions:
1. Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
2. I used Audio DiffMaker
3. Yes, exactly.

I will definitely conduct these tests, however I am in the middle of exams, so I will try to get it done in the next couple of days.

Lynx Hilo’s USB driver supports multi-client ASIO applications.  That means I can play a song in Foobar (v 1.2.4) while recording it’s bitstream in Audacity (ASIO version 1.3.13 alpha).

Following the same procedure as outlined here: JRiver Mac vs JRiver Windows Sound Quality Comparison (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/513-jriver-mac-vs-jriver-windows-sound-quality-comparison/), I was able to record Foobar (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/Foobarrecording_zps1f2ee020.jpg), then record JPlay (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JPlayrecording_zps83486009.jpg) (v5.1), using the following settings (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/jplaysettings_zps083aa8b6.jpg)

I have uploaded the two recorded samples, plus the original.  I edited the recorded samples so that they start and end at the same times, including the original.  The original flac was converted to wav using JRiver MC18 as JPlay can’t play flac. Note, other than inverting tracks in Audacity, nothing else was applied (i.e. no gain adjustments).

Foobar recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/Foobar%20recording%2060s.wav). 
JPlay recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/JPlay%20recording%2060s.wav). 
Original recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/original%20refugee%2060s.wav).

Comparing Foobar recording to the original file (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/Originalvsjplay_zps4251a330.jpg)
Bit identical.

Comparing Foobar recording to JPlay recording (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/FoobarvsJPlay_zps7a294978.jpg)
Bit identical.

For fun, comparing JRiver MC 18 on the Mac to JPlay on Windows (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JRiverMacvsJPlay_zpsf4c04919.jpg)
Bit identical.

For whatever reason, Foobar recording’s polarity was inverted compared to JPlay and JRiver (both Mac and PC versions) and the original file.  I had a look at the Foobar prefs, but could not find anywhere where this could be happening.

The JRiver Mac and Windows recordings can also be downloaded.  These are edited the same as the Foobar and JPlay recordings.
JRiver Mac recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/JRiver%20Mac%20Recording%2060s.wav).
Jriver Windows recording 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/JRiver%20Windows%20Recording%2060s.wav). 

I might try the different engines in JPlay to see what, if any, effect they have on the bitstream.


Testing continued...

I changed the JPlay engine from Beach to River (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JPlaybeach_zpsb4835a75.jpg) and recorded in Audacity.

Comparing JPlay Beach engine to JPlay River engine (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JPlayRivervsBeachengines_zps06cde1d6.jpg)
Bit identical.

Next up using the JPlay driver in Foobar (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/FoobarJPlaydriver_zps1ad5d7c0.jpg) and another recording in Audacity (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/FoobarJPlaydriverrecording_zpsf1e5ea7c.jpg).

Comparing Foobar using JPlay driver to the orginal recording (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/FoobarJplaydrivervsorginal_zps3bcceba5.jpg)
Bit identical.

Finally, using the JPlay driver in JRiver (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JRiverJPlaydriver_zps472d5387.jpg) and another recording (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JRiverJPlaydriverrecording_zps032cd50e.jpg).

Comparing JRiver MC 18 using JPlay driver to the orginal recording (http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd381/mitchatola/JriverJplaydrivervsorginal_zpsbdad771a.jpg)
Bit identical.

The recorded samples:

JPlay with Beach engine 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/JPlay%20recording%20beach%2060s.wav)
Foobar with JPlay driver 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/Foobar%20JPlay%20driver%20recording%2060s.wav)
JRiver with JPlay driver 60sec 33MB (https://westcoastdpe.blob.core.windows.net/audiotests/JRiver%20JPlay%20recording%2060s.wav)


The fact that you are getting bit-perfect matches is very exciting. Thank you for doing these tests, it is really appreciated. This means one of two things to me; 1. JPLAY actually does what it claims, and delivers audio 'better', resulting in a better overall sound, or 2. I am not hearing correct sound out of foobar and VLC leading me to believe JPLAY is actually better, when infact, it is the only correct source.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 03 April, 2013, 03:58:35 AM
Lynx Hilo’s USB driver supports multi-client ASIO applications.  That means I can play a song in Foobar (v 1.2.4) while recording it’s bitstream in Audacity (ASIO version 1.3.13 alpha).
[...]
For whatever reason, Foobar recording’s polarity was inverted compared to JPlay and JRiver (both Mac and PC versions) and the original file.  I had a look at the Foobar prefs, but could not find anywhere where this could be happening.


Did you use ASIO output plugin for foobar2000? Is it possible to test foobar2000 with DirectSound or WASAPI output?


http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=829184 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=92856&view=findpost&p=829184)
But my previous test with video illustration showed foobar+ASIO with bit-perfect result without polarity inversion...
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: hlloyge on 03 April, 2013, 04:42:47 AM
The fact that you are getting bit-perfect matches is very exciting. Thank you for doing these tests, it is really appreciated. This means one of two things to me; 1. JPLAY actually does what it claims, and delivers audio 'better', resulting in a better overall sound, or 2. I am not hearing correct sound out of foobar and VLC leading me to believe JPLAY is actually better, when infact, it is the only correct source.

I am sorry, but from his test results it is obvious that Foobar2000 and JPlay do the same thing, except that you pay 100 dollars more for JPlay. Now, if you analyse your playback chain, it should be pretty obvious where the problem is - of course, if you know what you are doing.
But then again, if you enter such discussion as this, I would expect you know what are you doing, playback chain as simple as this is the very basic of PC audio...
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 03 April, 2013, 04:45:55 AM
Hi bennetng,

Sure, I'd like to test it again. If, like people's analysis shows here, my version of foobar is altering the sound, I would like to configure it so that it doesn't do so, and to an ABX test again.


Thanks. I have another question and request as well. Jplay requires an ASIO-compatible audio interface to work but you were saying you are using onboard sound. As far as I know, onboard sound usually has no native ASIO driver, but it can be solved by installing a third party ASIO driver. If you are doing so, which third party ASIO driver are you using? Or if your onboard sound has a native ASIO driver, what is the name of your onboard device? You should be able to find the name of your device in Jplay's settings, if you are not sure, please post some screenshots.

Another request is, please go to
http://www.foobar2000.org/components (http://www.foobar2000.org/components)
and install "ASIO support" and "WASAPI output support" and configure foobar to output using ASIO and WASAPI, then perform the recording test again. You may have more than one ASIO or WASAPI output device to choose, if yes, please test all of them, if you can choose different output bit-depth, test all of them. If you encounter error or unable to playback my test signal under some combinations, for example, some bit-depth doesn't work, can't play one of the two files and so on, please report them and post the error messages.

You may need to familiarize yourself with foobar's configuration dialogs, please be patient, don't rush.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 03 April, 2013, 04:49:40 AM
The fact that you are getting bit-perfect matches is very exciting. Thank you for doing these tests, it is really appreciated. This means one of two things to me; 1. JPLAY actually does what it claims, and delivers audio 'better', resulting in a better overall sound, or 2. I am not hearing correct sound out of foobar and VLC leading me to believe JPLAY is actually better, when infact, it is the only correct source.

I am sorry, but from his test results it is obvious that Foobar2000 and JPlay do the same thing, except that you pay 100 dollars more for JPlay. Now, if you analyse your playback chain, it should be pretty obvious where the problem is - of course, if you know what you are doing.
But then again, if you enter such discussion as this, I would expect you know what are you doing, playback chain as simple as this is the very basic of PC audio...

The reason it excites me, is I can actually hear the difference. That said, I have been hearing a difference in an evidently different output, as proved by people's analysis. Note, that I have yet to pay for JPLAY, I am still only using the trial.

Well, it doesn't seem all that hard to analyse the chain, but there seem to be so few points it can change. My current chain is file > software > DAC > headphones. Foobar has all DSP turned off, and my audio control panels have all DSP turned off. Therefore I am having trouble working out where the issue could arise. I think I saw a link a few posts back regarding how to get unadulterated output from foobar, so I shall have to search back for that and follow the guide.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 03 April, 2013, 04:55:13 AM
Hi bennetng,

Sure, I'd like to test it again. If, like people's analysis shows here, my version of foobar is altering the sound, I would like to configure it so that it doesn't do so, and to an ABX test again.


Thanks. I have another question and request as well. Jplay requires an ASIO-compatible audio interface to work but you were saying you are using onboard sound. As far as I know, onboard sound usually has no native ASIO driver, but it can be solved by installing a third party ASIO driver. If you are doing so, which third party ASIO driver are you using? Or if your onboard sound has a native ASIO driver, what is the name of your onboard device? You should be able to find the name of your device in Jplay's settings, if you are not sure, please post some screenshots.

Another request is, please go to
http://www.foobar2000.org/components (http://www.foobar2000.org/components)
and install "ASIO support" and "WASAPI output support" and configure foobar to output using ASIO and WASAPI, then perform the recording test again. You may have more than one ASIO or WASAPI output device to choose, if yes, please test all of them, if you can choose different output bit-depth, test all of them. If you encounter error or unable to playback my test signal under some combinations, for example, some bit-depth doesn't work, can't play one of the two files and so on, please report them and post the error messages.

You may need to familiarize yourself with foobar's configuration dialogs, please be patient, don't rush.


I have a Realtek ALC892 chipset. I will install ASIO4ALL now, to ensure I have asio. I have been using WASAPI so far. I have installed those components as per your request.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 03 April, 2013, 05:09:01 AM
Foobar has all DSP turned off, and my audio control panels have all DSP turned off. Therefore I am having trouble working out where the issue could arise.


Looking for simple explanations: Could it be that your computer has some EQ applied in the Windows mixer? Win7 offers per-device tone controls. If such are applied, then the signal will differ from a path that bypasses the mixer altogether.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 03 April, 2013, 05:18:09 AM
Looking for simple explanations: Could it be that your computer has some EQ applied in the Windows mixer? Win7 offers per-device tone controls. If such are applied, then the signal differ from a path that bypasses the mixer altogether.


When using WASAPI output, how do you tell foobar to bypass the mixer? I thought wasapi was the direct way. But my knowledge of the windows audio mess is close to zero
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 03 April, 2013, 05:25:40 AM
Foobar has all DSP turned off, and my audio control panels have all DSP turned off. Therefore I am having trouble working out where the issue could arise.


Looking for simple explanations: Could it be that your computer has some EQ applied in the Windows mixer? Win7 offers per-device tone controls. If such are applied, then the signal differ from a path that bypasses the mixer altogether.


I have been using DS output this whole time, and comparing it to the ASIO output of JPLAY. I just installed the ASIO4ALL driver, and ran my 'litmus test' Pretzel Logic file, and suddenly JPLAY and foobar sound the same. You don't know how hard it is to write this post after generating nearly five pages of discussion, making people do tests, saying 'I can hear it! I can hear it!", when all it came down to was using a common driver method and bypassing Windows' handling. The 'chuck' on the guitar strings in Pretzel Logic that was never evident in VLC, WMP, or foobar is now audible using ASIO4ALL, just as it was in JPLAY. I can't believe that having an incorrect audio set up has made me look like such a fool. On the up side, at least mitchco's test show they all have the same bitperfect output. Maybe that is some good that has come of all of this. I hope you can all forgive for not having a correct audio setup, and coming to this discussion ill prepared. Maybe JPLAY appeals to people like myself who have never configured their audio correctly, and are getting the blurred and muddy sound of DS, who for the first time hear what sound should be like when hearing JPLAY. The bottom line is, they sound the same.

All of that said, the reviews that JPLAY have received on their websites from (seemingly) respected sites such as 6moons, lead me to question "am I missing something". I will do ABX testing with the ASIO4ALL foobar setup and JPLAY to see if I can tell any difference. However, by the tests conducted by others, I doubt there will be anything there. But, if somebody says it, I will test it, and make up my own mind. Thank you for all the work everybody has done, and I hope I can escape this without too much flaming because of my poorly configured setup, and lack of knowledge.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 03 April, 2013, 05:47:32 AM
I hope I can escape this without too much flaming because of my poorly configured setup, and lack of knowledge.


To be completely honest, I cannot completely ditch the idea that you've been trolling all the way, but here you are, today's freebie: 1x packet containing the benefit of doubt.

But you should be able to find the EQ settings somewhere. DS by itself should not make that difference.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 03 April, 2013, 05:49:38 AM
Science!

Quote
blurred and muddy sound of DS

Still, this really should not happen. I believe there's some kind of filter (accidentally?) applied in your soundcard's config software. Maybe it's one of those generic "Rock" EQs.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 03 April, 2013, 05:53:53 AM
Science!

Quote
blurred and muddy sound of DS

Still, this really should not happen. I believe there's some kind of filter (accidentally?) applied in your soundcard's config software.


I have searched high and low to find a setting, but can't find it. I'm not ruling it out, but every area I have searched (foobar dsp, realtek hd audio manager, windows control panel, etc) has either all DSP off, or no option of applying DSP.

Is there then, any reason to purchase a higher end sound card? Is on board audio completely sufficient?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 03 April, 2013, 06:04:43 AM
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=637554 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=11442&view=findpost&p=637554)
Quote
The acceptance of audiophile snake oil in the public sphere draws money away from real innovation, in all product markets and all price points, and reduces the quality of audio as a whole in the process.


I just searched the forum for this phrase. Helping other to solve problems can help ourselves as well.

Now the reason of why DS sounds differently form ASIO in sabrehagen's system is less important now. At least his (and our) money is saved.

if sabrehagen really can't figure out why DS sounds differently after all kinds of tweaking, it is possibly caused by his soundcard driver's bug.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 03 April, 2013, 06:08:35 AM
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=637554 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=11442&view=findpost&p=637554)
Quote
The acceptance of audiophile snake oil in the public sphere draws money away from real innovation, in all product markets and all price points, and reduces the quality of audio as a whole in the process.


I just searched the forum for this phrase. Helping other to solve problems can help ourselves as well.

Now the reason of why DS sounds differently form ASIO in sabrehagen's system is less important now. At least his (and our) money is saved.

if sabrehagen really can't figure out why DS sounds differently after all kinds of tweaking, it is possibly caused by his soundcard driver's bug.


Eh, I'm going to doubt myself after this faux pas and say that I am missing some configuration somewhere!

Yes, you're correct, I'm no longer potentially 99 Euros poorer!
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 03 April, 2013, 06:14:09 AM
Thanks for being honest!

Having said that, the comments about DS by definition having a particular sound are also erroneous and point only to a quirk in your setup or some other cause. Assuming we’re putting it down to that, we won’t be risking another violation of any rules.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 03 April, 2013, 06:39:26 AM
Just saying, 99 euros pays nicely for a new sound card.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: krabapple on 03 April, 2013, 11:24:59 AM
The reason it excites me, is I can actually hear the difference. That said, I have been hearing a difference in an evidently different output, as proved by people's analysis. Note, that I have yet to pay for JPLAY, I am still only using the trial.



The point is, JPLAY performs no better than freeware (foobar2k).  I used foobar's default settings, and a (not-free) software recorder's default settings (Total Recorder) --  a setup that is definitely NOT configured to be bit-perfect -- to record that Pretzel_Logic.wav file from foobar to TR.  My results (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100229&view=findpost&p=829876) far outmatched yours in terms of fidelity to the source.  Your results -both Jplay and foobar -- appear to have been re-equalized.    Something was altering the audio in your setup.  That's why you could hear a difference.

NB, the foobar output setup that produced the blue line in my graph used the standard Windows 7 driver,not ASIO or WASAPI.  The default Windows output was 48kHz.  I noticed that Total Recorder's downsampling to 44.1 kHz was quite bad -- it introduced serious attenuation starting at 13kHz.  Recording at 48kHz (the native rate) and then downsampling in Audition was much better.  (Setting Windows output to be 44kHz instead of 48  would probably work too, though I didn't check that).  So it pays to check every element in the output/recording chain.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: pbelkner on 03 April, 2013, 11:45:14 AM
DS by itself should not make that difference.

Have a look at the following discussion: Windows 7's resampling sucks, How can it be improved? (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=86676)
The discussion finally revealed that it known and confirmed by MS: Artifacts on Windows 7 due to sample rate conversion (http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/windowspro-audiodevelopment/thread/725546ce-57bf-40d0-b7aa-47e51de9c3ae/).
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: lvqcl on 03 April, 2013, 11:50:34 AM
Quote
According to a user there, the problem occurs if the application uses the WaveOut API. Directsound works fine.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 03 April, 2013, 01:02:10 PM
Does DS provide recording function? I ask this because RMAA shows MME and DS in playback but only MME in recording and I could not get rid of Audition 1.5's bad recording resampling before applying KB2653312

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=774695 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=86676&view=findpost&p=774695)

If it is true, then sabrehagen's recording samples could be affected as well.

EDIT: To answer my question, yes, because I see REAPER supports DS recording.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: splice on 03 April, 2013, 07:27:38 PM
...  So it pays to check every element in the output/recording chain.


"Never turn your back on digital." - Bob Ludwig, mastering engineer

More in this vein: http://www.seneschal.net/annex/laws.html (http://www.seneschal.net/annex/laws.html)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 04 April, 2013, 01:36:35 AM
"Never turn your back on digital." - Bob Ludwig, mastering engineer

More in this vein: http://www.seneschal.net/annex/laws.html (http://www.seneschal.net/annex/laws.html)


Yeah ... : No matter what occurs, someone believes it happened according to his pet theory.
I've had certain doubts about this though: If it happens, it must be possible.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 04 April, 2013, 05:01:12 AM
To answer the question "How about the sound quality of foobar+DS+onboard sound digital output?" which is similar to sabrehagen's setup:

Again, video illustration is available:
http://youtu.be/ZhjInN-skok (http://youtu.be/ZhjInN-skok)

Original audio files:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=829528 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=100156&view=findpost&p=829528)
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=100230 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100230)

Recorded audio files:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_...029976718634625 (http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=00053029976718634625)

My VIA onboard sound only support 48k and 96k digital output therefore bit-perfect output with 44k is impossible. That means, 1648 sweep 48k rec.wv is identical to 1648sweep.wv, all of the others are not bit-perfect.

Any resampling (playback and record) in my recordings are done by Windows' internal resampler. Adobe Audition 1.5 uses MME to record, which means Windows hotfix KB2653312 affected the sound quality of the recordings.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 04 April, 2013, 05:15:22 AM
To answer the question "How about the sound quality of foobar+DS+onboard sound digital output?" which is similar to sabrehagen's setup:

Again, video illustration is available:
http://youtu.be/ZhjInN-skok (http://youtu.be/ZhjInN-skok)

Original audio files:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=829528 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=100156&view=findpost&p=829528)
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=100230 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100230)

Recorded audio files:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_...029976718634625 (http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=00053029976718634625)

My VIA onboard sound only support 48k and 96k digital output therefore bit-perfect output with 44k is impossible. That means, 1648 sweep 48k rec.wv is identical to 1648sweep.wv, all of the others are not bit-perfect.

Any resampling (playback and record) in my recordings are done by Windows' internal resampler. Adobe Audition 1.5 uses MME to record, which means Windows hotfix KB2653312 affected the sound quality of the recordings.


If you are then getting bit-perfect playback from onboard sound, what is the point in investing in a soundcard that is just going to produce the same bit-perfect stream?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 04 April, 2013, 05:19:25 AM
If you are then getting bit-perfect playback from onboard sound, what is the point in investing in a soundcard that is just going to produce the same bit-perfect stream?


Other features, like the software and the inputs/outputs.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 04 April, 2013, 05:22:07 AM
If you are then getting bit-perfect playback from onboard sound, what is the point in investing in a soundcard that is just going to produce the same bit-perfect stream?


Other features, like the software and the inputs/outputs.


I was about to buy an ESI Juli@ card for sound quality improvements when using the digital output because so many forums had stated that it had improved sound quality. Is it certainly a waste of money? From the bit-perfect output, it seems it couldn't be anything less than throwing my money away 
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 04 April, 2013, 05:22:36 AM
For my personal needs:

1. I need native 44k sample rate support
2. I need multiclient ASIO support
3. My soundcard's analog output is louder (to drive my earphone)
4. I need optical and coaxial digital input
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Roseval on 04 April, 2013, 05:29:39 AM
I have searched high and low to find a setting, but can't find it. I'm not ruling it out, but every area I have searched (foobar dsp, realtek hd audio manager, windows control panel, etc) has either all DSP off, or no option of applying DSP.


DS uses the Win mixer.
The mixer converts to float and back to integer and applies dither.
By design the output of DS is not bit perfect.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 04 April, 2013, 05:37:24 AM
I was about to buy an ESI Juli@ card for sound quality improvements


Don't buy it for the sound quality. That's pretty much a solved problem. You said you were an amateur musician? It looks like it has decent hardware features (that split board looks cool, though I don't know what use it would be). If you feel you need those features: then by all means buy it!

I am primarily a listener, so my sound card (after I shorted my Realtek onboard with an inappropriate line-in) is an Asus Xonar DG. It performs really well.

The connectors are very close together though, so I do not recommend it for anyone with ideas of recording stuff. I can barely fit input and output together— I had to put an extra thin jack in between or it just wouldn't fit!
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 04 April, 2013, 05:49:09 AM
For my personal needs:

1. I need native 44k sample rate support
2. I need multiclient ASIO support
3. My soundcard's analog output is louder (to drive my earphone)
4. I need optical and coaxial digital input


I see no mention of digital output sound quality here!
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 04 April, 2013, 06:03:44 AM
For my personal needs:

1. I need native 44k sample rate support
2. I need multiclient ASIO support
3. My soundcard's analog output is louder (to drive my earphone)
4. I need optical and coaxial digital input


I see no mention of digital output sound quality here!

Because this is a reply to myself, not you.
For your scenario, I would say no audible improvement (assuming everything works as expected, like my tests)

One possibility is Juli@'s analog output quality may outperform your DAC if you choose to use analog, but it is just my assumptions without solid proof.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 04 April, 2013, 06:17:27 AM
I have searched high and low to find a setting, but can't find it. I'm not ruling it out, but every area I have searched (foobar dsp, realtek hd audio manager, windows control panel, etc) has either all DSP off, or no option of applying DSP.


DS uses the Win mixer.
The mixer converts to float and back to integer and applies dither.
By design the output of DS is not bit perfect.


Win mixer (DS/MME) can achieve bit perfect result when certain criteria are met. My tests proved already
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=829323 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=92856&view=findpost&p=829323)
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=830058 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=92856&view=findpost&p=830058)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: icstm on 02 May, 2013, 06:24:47 AM
I hope it goes without saying that tests conducted without complete level-matching are worthless.

What does this mean?
Why are levels changing on a bitperfect stream, unless the two playback engines being used to play the same source are chaing the stream?

Also why did ABK resurect an old thread, I think this discussion had run its course?
Are there new arguments here that were not last year?

Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 02 May, 2013, 06:30:52 AM
I hope it goes without saying that tests conducted without complete level-matching are worthless.
What does this mean?
Exactly what it says.

Quote
Why are levels changing on a bitperfect stream, unless the two playback engines being used to play the same source are chaing the stream?
Why indeed. The reason for these differences was never conclusively determined, other than potentially being caused by DirectSound. In any case, the fact that there were differences at all invalidated the tests. But speaking of the tests…

Quote
Also why did ABK resurect an old thread, I think this discussion had run its course?
Are there new arguments here that were not last year?
He does that sometimes. Anyway, that wasn’t what led to the most recent flurry of (unproductive) activity. Did you miss the fact that the previous 8 pages or so are about tests performed by sabrehagen? No, there are no new arguments or any points in favour of JPLAY, predictably. But if you want to know what has been happening in the thread, I can only suggest that you actually read it.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: icstm on 02 May, 2013, 06:32:22 AM
I am totally confused as to what we have/have not established here. I believe the questions that need to be answered are:

Does JPlay sound different?

Does JPlay alter the bits going to the sound card?

Has either of these been answered?


Now I am confused, I thought last year we were clear that JPlay could not really do (1) without doing (2), even though it might claim otherwise.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: icstm on 02 May, 2013, 07:01:16 AM
For my personal needs:

1. I need native 44k sample rate support
2. I need multiclient ASIO support
3. My soundcard's analog output is louder (to drive my earphone)
4. I need optical and coaxial digital input


I see no mention of digital output sound quality here!

Not sure what you mean by the quality of the digital output, but your Realtek 892 supports 44k or 48k&96k. So standard 16b/44k CD sound is supported bitperfect.

You probably wont have all those digital inputs though.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 02 May, 2013, 07:05:02 AM
Also why did ABK resurect an old thread, I think this discussion had run its course?
These questions take on a new irony now that you’re replying to scattered posts from a now-dead discussion.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: icstm on 02 May, 2013, 07:07:43 AM
@db1989
I did read all the pages.
It was this thread that first drew me to sign up to this site.

So how in general should I perform level matching on two different source files for ABX testing?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Sirlordcomic on 25 May, 2013, 03:26:39 PM
I apologize if this was posted, but I read most of the entire thread; a well done test on JPLAY was done by Mitch at CA. I hope it is ok to post the link. Fascinating thread.

comparing JPLAY & JRIVER (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/mitchco/jriver-vs-jplay-test-results-156/)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 25 May, 2013, 04:05:12 PM
Quote
I find there is a direct correlation between what I hear and what I measure and vice versa.

Without accusing the well of being poisoned, this particular "finding" (specifically the part about direct correlation) is, how should I put it, bullshit.

In the event that you aren't aware, evidence of a difference in a signal is not evidence of audibility, regardless of the size of that difference.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 25 May, 2013, 05:52:45 PM
I agree, and to pile on. . .

Quote
As an aside, [Audio DiffMaker, which offers for display or listening the difference of two input streams,] can be used to objectively evaluate anything in your audio playback that you have changed. Whether that be a SSD, power supply, DAC, interconnects, and of course music players
Objective, eh? In the sense of providing empirical data, maybe, but useless in terms of predicting the perceptual results. This pointlessness applies both to comparisons such as the one cited, wherein one would expect differences to be nonexistent or negligible, and to comparisons involving lossy codecs, for reasons that I hope I need not restate in the latter case.

Quote
I find there is a direct correlation between what I hear and what I measure and vice versa. I want a balanced view between subjective and objective test results.
What a coincidence! Subjective results only become meaningful when confirmed by objective results. Thus, talk of a balance strikes me as being nonsensical. I do not believe Hydrogenaudio would advocate people wasting their time trying to find any such balance.

I post this to emphasise these corollaries of TOS #8 in case anyone did not already derive them implicitly from its wording. You can measure things all day, and the measurements might be useful from an engineering perspective, but double-blind listening tests are the only way to make them meaningful in audible terms.

The fact that this article managed to arrive at the correct (and surely obvious) conclusion and included some semblance of objective testing does not retroactively validate its methods and justifications. I am pretty sure it was posted not long ago, and after making some brief comments akin to the above, I think I was told that significant portions of the readership of Computer Audiophile need such doses of reality (Jriver vs. JPLAY, FLAC vs. WAV by the same tester, etc.) regardless of how they are provided. While there might be some validity to that, and such tests probably serve a useful purpose for some readers, I find it hard to applaud very much when they perpetuate hindering myths about how things should be tested. Myths that are not quite as bad as other myths are still myths!
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 25 May, 2013, 07:08:47 PM
On a place where USB cables need burn-in time and good sound can only come from 5.6MHz dsd pecause it does not ring i find it very courageous by mitchco to offer numbers that should show the members over there things simply can´t be that way.
You can´t compare it with our vault here. Reasoning must be different there.
I sometimes read on CA and besides many absurd reasoning and listening reports there is also interesting stuff.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 25 May, 2013, 07:54:50 PM
Good points. My post has, predictably, a heavy bias to how things are done here. While that is all well and good for us, I did not mean to imply that mitchco was not doing something positive in offering some sanity to people elsewhere.

I would like to take this opportunity to separate that possible benefit from my criticisms of the methods or discussion. Although a lot of the methods are naïve and oversimplified, I suppose that is appropriate when dealing with misconceptions of a similar nature! In that respect, yes, mitchco is doing a good thing to try to debunk common myths of audiophoolery. If his articles help to divest people of incorrect ideas about comparative quality, then of course that is good.

Many of my criticisms centred not on the simplistic measurements used but rather on the allegations that they are intrinsically correlated with audibility. I feel that such articles run the risk of debunking one big myth while simultaneously instilling smaller ones. Simple metrics need not be reflective of perception at all. False generalisations that measurement predicts (sighted) perception seem to be counterproductive to the overall conclusions. But small steps in the right direction, and all that.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mitchco on 25 May, 2013, 08:27:44 PM
Good points. My post has, predictably, a heavy bias to how things are done here. While that is all well and good for us, I did not mean to imply that mitchco was not doing something positive in offering some sanity to people elsewhere.

I would like to take this opportunity to separate that possible benefit from my criticisms of the methods or discussion. Although a lot of the methods are naïve and oversimplified, I suppose that is appropriate when dealing with misconceptions of a similar nature! In that respect, yes, mitchco is doing a good thing to try to debunk common myths of audiophoolery. If his articles help to divest people of incorrect ideas about comparative quality, then of course that is good.

Many of my criticisms centred not on the simplistic measurements used but rather on the allegations that they are intrinsically correlated with audibility. I feel that such articles run the risk of debunking one big myth while simultaneously instilling smaller ones. Simple metrics need not be reflective of perception at all. False generalisations that measurement predicts (sighted) perception seem to be counterproductive to the overall conclusions. But small steps in the right direction, and all that.


Mitchco here.  Just to point out that in each of the measurement posts referenced above also included ABX listening tests...

If my methods are naïve and oversimplified, and my conclusions with respect to correlating to audibility are incorrect, please correct me.  I would like to genuinely learn how I can improve my test methods and understanding.  For example, how can I improve on this? http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/...bility-testing/ (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/520-fun-digital-audio-%96-bit-perfect-audibility-testing/)

Thanks
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 25 May, 2013, 10:38:24 PM
I apologise: I think my wording has been imprecise and too harsh in some cases. As I hope was clear, I do appreciate your efforts and the general intention behind these tests.

My criticisms were not intended to be general or to devalue your overall conclusions, although I can see how they could be interpreted that way. I started out commenting on just a few particular methods and their relevance, or lack thereof, to psychoacoustics, e.g. difference signals; and to what I interpreted as statements that objective measurements such as these correlate with subjective listening tests, which I took to mean non-double-blind tests. I did see that you had performed ABX tests but was not sure whether that was a universal feature.

Perhaps I have not paid sufficient attention to your articles in my glance through them, and I may have incorrectly extrapolated from what I have seen, so I apologise if I have said anything incorrect/misleading. I would be happy to have a more detailed read through and offer my feedback when I have more time, although I freely admit that I am by far from the most qualified of our members to do so! Certainly you have infinitely more in-the-field experience than me as described in your articles. And, again, I appreciate your using your time to document things like this.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 26 May, 2013, 01:57:44 AM
I just read the JRiver vs JPlay and FLAC vs WAV articles.
These 2 articles suggested that they produced -90dB differences in null tests (Audio Diffmaker).

But analog audio will never be identical, I mean, there will be differences even when I compare FLAC vs FLAC being played in foobar vs foobar, and my findings is that differences in WAV vs FLAC vs Wavpack is not bigger than WAV vs WAV and FLAC vs FLAC and Wavpack vs Wavpack, and differences in foobar vs MPC-HC is not bigger than foobar vs foobar and MPC-HC vs MPC-HC and WASAPI vs...(insert other players/formats/APIs here), when everything are correctly configured, of course.

Null tests will only be perfect (-inf dB) in digital streams like SPDIF.

I think mitchco know this already, I just post this to inform other readers.

There are measurable differences in a busy PC vs idle PC though
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=100481 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=100481)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mitchco on 26 May, 2013, 02:09:47 AM
db1989, no harm, no foul.  If I make or have made any technical mistakes in my articles, I hope folks correct me. 
The JRiver vs JPlAY article Sirlordcomic referenced, I wrote in Feb 2012.  Recently, I added test results in this thread (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=92856&view=findpost&p=829893)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 26 May, 2013, 04:56:52 AM
Null tests will only be perfect (-inf dB) in digital streams like SPDIF.


And only if you pick them up digitally from the output.  If you read SPDIF off a coax cable, the signal is an “analogue” sequence of bits that attempt to shout  “one!” “zero!” so clearly that the “analogueness” should be perfectly filtered away.  That won't stop people from reading off measurements and compare differences-in-differences A-minus-reference vs B-minus-reference without any clue of whether the order of magnitude of “analogue” noise is remotely close to getting bits wrong.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: krabapple on 26 May, 2013, 11:04:52 AM
If my methods are naïve and oversimplified, and my conclusions with respect to correlating to audibility are incorrect, please correct me.  I would like to genuinely learn how I can improve my test methods and understanding.  For example, how can I improve on this? http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/...bility-testing/ (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/520-fun-digital-audio-%96-bit-perfect-audibility-testing/)

Thanks



I admire your curiosity, but looks a bit like the wheel was reinvented...you verified that amplitude difference <0.2dB is inaudible, as is conversion from 16bit or 24 bit to 12bit or above.  Both of these limits were known from previous psychoacoustics/hearing research.

But if your investigations tamp down some of the crazier claims on CA, all to the good.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: uart on 28 May, 2013, 11:52:11 AM
I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned, but Foobar2000 has the option to buffer full tracks to memory anyway (under advanced options you can set the maximum size limit).

I know Jplay touts the ability to buffer entire play lists, but that's a total waste of memory for my purposes. With Foobar buffering enabled I only get a half second burst of disc activity (which is very quiet anyway on my PC) between tracks, and then HDD is completely silent throughout the track. I'm pretty sure I can live with this.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 28 May, 2013, 04:41:35 PM
Foobar2000 has the option to buffer full tracks to memory anyway


And then there's http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_ramdisk (http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_ramdisk) ...
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 29 May, 2013, 03:08:25 AM
How can a software at ASIO driver layer buffer full track to memory? At driver level it only receives chunks of decoded PCM, right? Perhaps it advertises its ASIO buffer to be long several minutes. But I doubt that since it could clog a playback application easily - maximum real sound device DMA/playback  buffer is at max a few seconds, mostly up to one second.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: [JAZ] on 29 May, 2013, 03:10:16 PM
@phofman: When a software buffers something in memory, it means that it reads from whatever input source it might be (hard drive, USB, HTTP location,...) and keeps it in RAM to work with it.

It has nothing to do with the communication with the output device (in this case, a soundcard via ASIO).
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 29 May, 2013, 03:52:28 PM

@phofman: When a software buffers something in memory, it means that it reads from whatever input source it might be (hard drive, USB, HTTP location,...) and keeps it in RAM to work with it.



Yes but if such software emulates an ASIO driver, it receives data via ASIO calls. Each call provides data for  one half of the ASIO buffer (ASIO has fixed ratio of 2 periods per buffer). Such software cannot influence the way the upper layer (JRiver) generates the samples to be handed over to its ASIO driver (emulated by JPlay).

Perhaps the RAM playback feature is available for some other modes where Jplay is closer to the actual source files. No idea
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Propheticus on 29 May, 2013, 05:57:53 PM
You're talking about the output buffer between application and driver level. A ramdisk buffers the input. It behaves as if it's the HDD that is being read from...while in fact it's a much faster accessible part of the ram memory. Reading a file into the ramdisk supposedly allows the disk to spin down after filling the buffer and limit the interference read actions during playback (again supposedly) could cause.

I think this is only useful in machines where the (audio card's) power supply is so dirty that the HDD's read actions are audible. Actual spinning down of harddisks in an average consumer pc running the typical array of (background) apps will not happen often. You'd need a dedicated music pc stripped from all unnecessary programs and services. An untweaked Windows installation tends to autodefrag disks, update the search index, update performance index, etc. during idle moments...Playing music is such a low load, it might as well be called idling.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 30 May, 2013, 12:36:44 AM
You're talking about the output buffer between application and driver level. A ramdisk buffers the input.


Yes, exactly. If jplay is interfacing at asio API (i.e. application and driver level), it logically cannot provide RAM playback. Yet it was mentioned here, so I wonder how come

Playing music is such a low load, it might as well be called idling.


You know that, I know that. Apparently there are people who believe the opposite, e.g. http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/.../12/124087.html (http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/12/124087.html)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Propheticus on 30 May, 2013, 07:16:59 AM
It could do both, use a built in ramdisk to buffer raw read input AND buffer the decoded stream to the normal output path (ASIO) like any other ASIO capable player does.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 30 May, 2013, 12:58:40 PM
It could do both, use a built in ramdisk to buffer raw read input AND buffer the decoded stream to the normal output path (ASIO) like any other ASIO capable player does.


Sorry for my misleading formulation. I am talking about READING samples via ASIO where jplay acts as a "virtual" ASIO driver.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Willakan on 19 June, 2013, 05:43:14 AM
http://www.audiostream.com/content/jplay-r...nds-open-letter (http://www.audiostream.com/content/jplay-responds-open-letter)

Well, this thread certainly seems to have done some good raising awareness, even if the dyed-in-the-wool audiophiles will still lap up absolutely anything they are told about the insides of these mystical things we call computers.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: sabrehagen on 11 July, 2013, 07:00:01 PM
This has got to be one of my favourite posts of all time. I didn't know whether to be floored or laugh hysterically when I read it. My reaction was a mixture of both.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread....3315#post423315 (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?12735-JPLAY-Hi-end-audio-player-for-Windows&p=423315#post423315)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 11 July, 2013, 07:12:44 PM
Shooting fish in a barrel, etc.

The same guy:
Quote
Be good to understand why I am hearing such a big difference in sound
I love* how it never even crosses their minds as a possibility that they might not actually be hearing these fanciful effects. Nope, they’re infallible, and their perceptions are sacrosanct. So they must find ways to justify them, however hard said explanations fly in the face of physics and, let’s be honest, common sense.

*word used extremely sarcastically
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Hotsoup on 12 July, 2013, 12:34:10 AM
Quote
CAT5 is nowhere neat, CAT6 a little laid back. CAT7 rules. (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?12735-JPLAY-Hi-end-audio-player-for-Windows&p=423380#post423380)

What??  Will there be audiophile routers next?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 12 July, 2013, 04:49:32 AM
What??  Will there be audiophile routers next?


Just imagine any ol' random thing.

SSD sounds better than HD.

ramdisk in DDR5 sounds better than DDR3

More ram allows for better expression of lower frequencies.

Uranium drivers.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: probedb on 12 July, 2013, 08:34:29 AM
SSD sounds better than HD.


Didn't someone do some 'tests' and claimed that it also depended where on the HDD the files were as to how good it sounded? Or something equally bizarre.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Rotareneg on 12 July, 2013, 11:48:50 AM
I think a big issue here is that people don't realize that audio cables oriented to magnetic north and south sound better than east and west, which is probably a major cause of failures when blind testing decent audiophile gear.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: andy o on 12 July, 2013, 11:55:14 AM
Yeah, so 2013 won't be a good year to test your cables, people! The solar cycle is getting unpredictable (http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2013/01mar_twinpeaks/). I mean, magnetshowdotheywork, am I right?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Hotsoup on 12 July, 2013, 12:17:59 PM
I wonder if MythBusters could do an episode on audiophile tweaks. They could easily do an entire two-part special.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Willakan on 12 July, 2013, 12:27:34 PM
SSD sounds better than HD.


Didn't someone do some 'tests' and claimed that it also depended where on the HDD the files were as to how good it sounded? Or something equally bizarre.


That would be "The Absolute Sound", with their absolutely risible article on computer audio.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: washu on 12 July, 2013, 03:01:27 PM
I wonder if MythBusters could do an episode on audiophile tweaks. They could easily do an entire two-part special.


I saw a talk not too long ago where Adam said he wanted to do exactly that.  He claimed the producers don't think they could make an interesting show out of the topic so they can't do it.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 12 July, 2013, 03:08:02 PM
I saw a talk not too long ago where Adam said he wanted to do exactly that.  He claimed the producers don't think they could make an interesting show out of the topic so they can't do it.

To bad! They could have nice explosions with audiophile 2-way speakers that can indeed take advantage of more then 16bit exactly in the moment they bust in 1000 pieces
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 12 July, 2013, 03:23:29 PM
Pff, so they can, as I found out while quickly checking the terminology in my previous post here, literally shoot fish in a barrel to check that myth, but they can’t address the blatant myths of a pervasive subculture full of some of the worst mumbo-jumbo and most uninformed people on Earth?

Nice to have further confirmation that the world is done for if it continues to focus only on whatever sentationalist nonsenses the masses want. Flagrant disregard of the most basic animal welfare in order to hawk advertising minutes to braying consumers, for instance. Rubbish like this is what the media want people to want. Said media are birds of a feather with those selling crap like ‘audiophile’ gear, after all. It’s a tangled web.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 12 July, 2013, 03:45:11 PM
Quote
CAT5 is nowhere neat, CAT6 a little laid back. CAT7 rules. (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?12735-JPLAY-Hi-end-audio-player-for-Windows&p=423380#post423380)

What??  Will there be audiophile routers next?


Well, there might be another CAT or two, and then it could escalate ... possibly up to the level where some audio forum on the net will flow over with cat avatars.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mudlord on 13 July, 2013, 09:30:57 AM
Quote
JPLAY uses special ultra low-latency RAM to store music samples and massively pre-queues them so the sound driver can access them faster


What the hell.
"Ultra low-latency".....heh
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 13 July, 2013, 09:36:44 AM
I didn't know hardware comes with your purchase.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: skamp on 13 July, 2013, 09:40:03 AM
Maybe it comes with an incantation to make your existing RAM faster.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 13 July, 2013, 11:23:26 AM
I didn't know hardware comes with your purchase.


There's plenty of packing room inside jplays empty black box.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Propheticus on 13 July, 2013, 06:14:07 PM
The only faster mem available would be the CPU cache and as far as I know programs (not even the OS) can directly write into this. Caching is handled by the CPU itself.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Nessuno on 13 July, 2013, 08:07:43 PM
The only faster mem available would be the CPU cache and as far as I know programs (not even the OS) can directly write into this. Caching is handled by the CPU itself.

Did you mean "can't directly write", right?

Well, maybe knowing the CPU caching strategy a skilled programmer could try some tricks to keep as much code as possible into cache, but this would be no deterministic, expecially under a preemptive multitasking OS (*) and all the more the program itself should be written in assembly, or at least the programmer should know his compiler's code generation strategies and optimizations, making everything compiler vendor, version and even switches dependent. Of course all this would be targeted to a very specific CPU core.
Definitely not feasible.

(*) yes, I know, JPlay claims to turn off as much system services and background processes: nope! The only strategy that could make sense it this respect wold be a pure MS-DOS version, booting the PC from a diskette!
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Propheticus on 14 July, 2013, 12:54:29 AM
Eh yes, meant can't -- of course.
Like you said, you'd need to interact on machine code (assembly) level... not on (windows) API/driver level.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 14 July, 2013, 05:50:58 AM
If I am not mistaken, and excuse me for not going to the official JPLAY compound to check, I believe there is indeed a version that tries to monopolise the cache for itself and links this to quality using the usual utter nonsense.

The mention of low-latency RAM is presumably just a disengenuous reference to normal RAM and how modern examples have low latency simply by virtue of the ever-present shift towards faster speeds. Never mind that playing from RAM is neither necessary nor sufficient for a competent audio player to reproduce a signal without butchering it, something that is easy in many other ways but not this one. Besides that, the speed of that RAM will make precisely no difference as long as the programmer is not an idiot and has proper strategies for buffering and so forth. Those do not require advanced techniques and certainly do not justify a payment of 99 EUR, just like everything else JPLAY does/claims to do.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: spoon on 14 July, 2013, 06:51:33 AM
A modern processor can transfer around 25GB/second - a lossless audio stream is what 176KB / sec, so the processer + memory are 142,000x faster than need to be....that is not enough?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Propheticus on 14 July, 2013, 01:14:59 PM
It is, plenty fast. We already came to the conclusion jPlay is a scam. Just picking apart the bogus claims of how this black box supposedly operates. Even if it could do what they say it does, it probably wouldn't matter.

Seems like an example of throwing in enough random technical terms so that half tech-savvy people recognize these and believe it's plausible that it works but is far too complex for them to comprehend. The programmer is a pro after all... pro at deceit that is.

The fact it hogs so much system resources (which shouldn't be needed for something trivial as audio is for modern systems these days) reminds me of bogus programs that have a fake progress bar. Normally these programs would take only a few seconds to perform the simple operation they performed. To mask the fact what they do is trivial, they add a progress bar that would load in half a minute to give the user the impression the program was actually doing a lot. Mostly seen in a variety of system performance boosting apps and reg cleaners which use readily available windows functions and often don't work (reg cleaning is useless for instance).
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: db1989 on 14 July, 2013, 01:25:38 PM
But Propheticus, if you spell a word wrong by mistake on one occasion, that proves that you’re not qualified to comment about this fine product and that it is, in fact, the panacea it’s always claimed to be! (reference (http://hydrogenaudio.org/forums/?showtopic=101735#entry839242))
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: TomasPin on 14 July, 2013, 02:53:57 PM
Grammar Nazis. Never resting, always watching. Be afraid, be VERY afraid. 

If they want to believe in magic, let them be. However, the fact that they care to respond so loudly to any claims against their magic is at least counter-productive to their intentions, at most annoying as hell. They won't let us discuss this in peace I'm afraid...

Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 14 July, 2013, 03:25:40 PM
The mention of low-latency RAM is presumably just a disengenuous reference to normal RAM


Not to defend their marketing, but RAM could be said to be “low-latency” compared to hard drives.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Robertina on 14 July, 2013, 04:59:11 PM
Both Jplay's developers and Jplay's supporters have failed to confute our arguments against this piece of software. Instead, more or less explicit threats with legal consequences for some posters or attempts to reveal real persons behind member names.

So aren't we through with this topic?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Propheticus on 14 July, 2013, 06:28:15 PM
But Propheticus, if you spell a word wrong by mistake on one occasion, that proves that you're not qualified to comment about this fine product and that it is, in fact, the panacea it's always claimed to be! (reference (http://hydrogenaudio.org/forums/?showtopic=101735#entry839242))


Lol, I hadn't even seen that reply. I guess it was removed before I could. English is not my native language....and even then, I believe my writing is perfectly comprehensible. In my book, if you have to resort to ad-hominem arguments and pointing out spelling errors you've lost the debate. *add laughter resembling a neighing horse here*
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Mike@MSR on 26 December, 2013, 06:03:33 PM
Look guys - I have been in the audio and pc world from the beginning and have worked at Cirrus Logic and Texas Instruments and was on the design teams who designed the high end dacs you guys use. PC audio is flawed due to timing interrupts and software that can make a big difference in sound quality even if the bits are bit perfect
as claimed by JRiver and Foobar or whoever. All software sounds different. I OWN every software package out there and on a high end rig - it is easy to hear it. I had placed cPlay at the top of the heap until I heard JPlay. JPlay is the best sounding out of all programs I have. Not only do I hear it - all of the other guys I have turned them onto it hear the same thing.
Jitter is a huge issue in digital audio - and the PC is horrendous with it. Asynchronous USB interfaces do not eliminate it, much as we would like to claim it does.
Here is my list of best sounding software -
JPlay
cPlay
Ardore
Fidelia
Amarra
Audivarna
JRiver


And yes - for best audio - the file should be loaded into memory Ram , and played out of Ram (1 stick is best) all other processing should be turned off, no background activity. It is easy to hear..... try running JPlay on it's own and not within JRiver or Foobar.

IT IS NOT A SCAM!!!!

Mike R

Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: includemeout on 26 December, 2013, 06:28:44 PM
Blimey! You are certainly not shy at all when it comes to tooting your own horn, are ya?

I mean, for a first post (and for an old worn-out thread) this is too unexpected (maybe unnecessary?) to say the least.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Satellite_6 on 26 December, 2013, 08:53:16 PM
Look guys - I have been in the audio and pc world from the beginning and have worked at Cirrus Logic and Texas Instruments and was on the design teams who designed the high end dacs you guys use. PC audio is flawed due to timing interrupts and software that can make a big difference in sound quality even if the bits are bit perfect
as claimed by JRiver and Foobar or whoever. All software sounds different. I OWN every software package out there and on a high end rig - it is easy to hear it. I had placed cPlay at the top of the heap until I heard JPlay. JPlay is the best sounding out of all programs I have. Not only do I hear it - all of the other guys I have turned them onto it hear the same thing.
Jitter is a huge issue in digital audio - and the PC is horrendous with it. Asynchronous USB interfaces do not eliminate it, much as we would like to claim it does.
Here is my list of best sounding software -
JPlay
cPlay
Ardore
Fidelia
Amarra
Audivarna
JRiver


And yes - for best audio - the file should be loaded into memory Ram , and played out of Ram (1 stick is best) all other processing should be turned off, no background activity. It is easy to hear..... try running JPlay on it's own and not within JRiver or Foobar.

IT IS NOT A SCAM!!!!

Mike R


It is sad that people actually believe this shit. . .
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: marc2003 on 26 December, 2013, 09:00:04 PM
and played out of Ram (1 stick is best)


AWESOME. I'M GOING TO TRY THIS RIGHT NOW AND I'LL BE BACK WITH MY RESULTS VERY SOON!!! 
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: A_Man_Eating_Duck on 26 December, 2013, 11:58:45 PM
Jitter is a huge issue in digital audio - and the PC is horrendous with it. Asynchronous USB interfaces do not eliminate it, much as we would like to claim it does.
Why are you using a PC based audio system if jitter it's such a "horrendous" issue?

And yes - for best audio - the file should be loaded into memory Ram , and played out of Ram (1 stick is best) all other processing should be turned off, no background activity. It is easy to hear..... try running JPlay on it's own and not within JRiver or Foobar.

IT IS NOT A SCAM!!!!
If you think like this, then you already have been scammed!
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 27 December, 2013, 12:58:13 AM
This new guy is nobody special. Unfortunately being an engineer doesn't preclude you from being a deluded placebophile. 

Mike R:
There are plenty of credentialed people here who are well disciplined in all of the fields pertinent to the subject matter of this forum, which include and extend beyond hardware design.  Touting your experience buys you nothing here, especially when it is followed by the type of garbage you proceeded to shovel.

If you wish to participate here you are obligated to follow our rules. Your first post here is not cutting it (rule #8, specifically).
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 27 December, 2013, 02:59:49 PM
I wonder why it is so rare to see jitterophobes point out that their DAC has a buffer ...
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: godrick on 27 December, 2013, 03:27:26 PM
"Mike" is either a victim spreading his misplaced revelations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True-believer_syndrome), or he's a predator trolling for the vulnerable (http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=167713).

My opinion has thus evolved to "the less attention, the better".  On more important matters, I must get back to my "Lilyhammer" marathon.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 28 December, 2013, 07:11:10 AM
Look guys - I have been in the audio and pc world from the beginning and have worked at Cirrus Logic and Texas Instruments and was on the design teams who designed the high end dacs you guys use.


Are you sure that many of us do much listening through high end DACs?

I have several but they pretty much get tasked to measuring the performance of audio gear.

Quote
PC audio is flawed due to timing interrupts and software that can make a big difference in sound quality even if the bits are bit perfect
as claimed by JRiver and Foobar or whoever.


That's a generalization and all generalizations are false. I think in a more sober moment you might do better saying:

" PC audio can flawed due to timing interrupts and software can make a big difference in sound quality even if the bits are bit perfect."

IOW, turn down the bubbles and hyperbole. ;-)

When you start ranting about interrupts I think of a old laptop with a 1 GHz single core processor and lots of resident junkware running.

Quote
All software sounds different.


How can that be when lots of it doesn't even measure significantly different?

Quote
I OWN every software package out there and on a high end rig - it is easy to hear it.


In order to post here you had to promise to abide by TOS #8. Did you read and comprehend it?

"8. All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims. Acceptable means of support are double blind listening tests (ABX or ABC/HR) demonstrating that the member can discern a difference perceptually, together with a test sample to allow others to reproduce their findings. Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support."

Do you see your recent posting activity as meeting the terms that you agreed to?

Quote
I had placed cPlay at the top of the heap until I heard JPlay. JPlay is the best sounding out of all programs I have. Not only do I hear it - all of the other guys I have turned them onto it hear the same thing.


Jitter is a huge issue in digital audio - and the PC is horrendous with it. Asynchronous USB interfaces do not eliminate it, much as we would like to claim it does.


Here is my list of best sounding software -
JPlay
cPlay
Ardore
Fidelia
Amarra
Audivarna
JRiver


And yes - for best audio - the file should be loaded into memory Ram , and played out of Ram (1 stick is best) all other processing should be turned off, no background activity. It is easy to hear..... try running JPlay on it's own and not within JRiver or Foobar.

IT IS NOT A SCAM!!!!

Mike R


I thought you said with few if any qualifications:

"PC audio is flawed due to timing interrupts".

If PC audio is so flawed, how can any of it sound any good?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: includemeout on 28 December, 2013, 08:59:17 AM
"Mike" is either a victim spreading his misplaced revelations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True-believer_syndrome), or he's a predator trolling for the vulnerable (http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=167713).


By his hit & run style, it doesn't look like we'll be seeing much of Mr. Mike@MSR any time soon. 

Or is he sharpening his claws/reloading his guns for a second round? 

Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Robertina on 28 December, 2013, 09:09:57 AM
^^ Mike's absurd and deceptive statements are suspected to be aimed at something completely different than it seems to be.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: includemeout on 29 December, 2013, 04:16:06 AM
Moderation, I understand the half a dozen posts which were descending into a flame war being in the recycle bin, but where's the rest of the thread please?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: kraut on 29 December, 2013, 04:36:40 AM
Moderation, I understand the half a dozen posts which were descending into a flame war being in the recycle bin, but where's the rest of the thread please?




http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=104026 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=104026)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: includemeout on 29 December, 2013, 04:41:28 AM
Moderation, I understand the half a dozen posts which were descending into a flame war being in the recycle bin, but where's the rest of the thread please?




http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=104026 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=104026)


Now it's definitely where it belongs.   

Thank you!
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Ferongr on 31 December, 2013, 05:24:30 AM
1. The test signal should not be very close to 0dBFS because Windows will automatically limit the volume to prevent clipping, resulting a non bit-perfect stream.


Sorry for the slightly offtopic message but I've never heard about this before. Is there a website/thread with more information about this? Does it only affect MME or does it also affect DirectSound?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: lvqcl on 31 December, 2013, 05:53:24 AM
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/matthew_van_eerde/...le-signals.aspx (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/matthew_van_eerde/archive/2011/05/11/linearity-of-windows-volume-apis-iaudiometerinformation-and-full-scale-signals.aspx)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Ferongr on 31 December, 2013, 09:01:47 AM
If my highschool-level math didn't fail me then the limiter works on peaks above -0.2dBFS so it's not audible even on audio with 0dBFS peaks.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: lvqcl on 31 December, 2013, 09:16:00 AM
20*log(0.985) ≈ -0,1313 dB FS
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mudlord on 31 December, 2013, 10:08:22 PM
http://jplay.eu/jcat/ (http://jplay.eu/jcat/)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 01 January, 2014, 12:53:06 AM
http://jplay.eu/jcat/ (http://jplay.eu/jcat/)


Making cables and other physical gadgets is a smarter move. At least skeptics cannot test them unless they have them. Such gadgets are also easier to develop, sellers can just use third party products and put their brand name on it. Also, software can be cracked while hardware cannot.

Making fraudulent "audiophile" software is a silly idea to begin with. All malicious merchants should learn a lesson from JPlay.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: includemeout on 01 January, 2014, 03:53:08 AM
Making fraudulent "audiophile" software is a silly idea to begin with. All malicious merchants should learn a lesson from JPlay.


Unless they don't mind being tops on google as comedy relief to serious users. 
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Antifremer on 01 January, 2014, 10:29:19 AM
I analyzed this thread http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.p...An-Open-Letter/ (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?10954-JPLAY-Responds-An-Open-Letter/) about jplay on Whats Best Forum where Josef Piri and his partner John Keny are both shilling.

I realized that HA hasn't breached the haul of their scam ship, this IS their vessel.

You think they are defending themselves on objectivists forums, but they are not. They are seeding reasonable doubt, harnessing google chatter, and most importantly they are selling.

Each time someone says "Where are your measurements?", "Where are your DBT/ABX studies?", "Where is your evidence?", each time they respond with "Just listen to it!", "That many people buying it can't be wrong!", "I am just a programer working in my garage, I can't afford Science."

Guess what's the effect of this. Yes I went and downloaded the horrid JPlay, I had to listen for myself. Of course I heard no audible difference, and my computer suffered and began to freeze. Doesn't matter, they sucked me into it.

I didn't buy it but 1 out of 10 or 20 people who are borderline deciding should they, they have. They came to these forums to look for a little push to go ahead and buy and these shills did their jobs quite remarkably. Even if technically nothing made sense to the potential buyer, the fact these cunty impolite people are attacking the poor garage inventor defending his little life achieving invention, awwww. They went and bought the "invention". Can you blame these morons? No. Everyone likes an underdog and a good shill knows it and uses it.

Those that are clear cut imbeciles don't come on HA and read pros and cons, no, they bought it the same day 6moons published the review. HA and WBF and AudioSource and similar debating this JPlay scam are being used as a opportunity to shill the undecided ones already holding their visa's and mastercard's in their hands. Screw the cards, they have their CC's in browser autofill forms ready.

Notice how each time any of the shills, either Josef or others are dragged into the ring of technical knowledge and lingo, they say "for the readership sake" they have to pull out and use easy going analogies. Just watering the imbeciles sponge brains. As in Jazz music artists like to say, Josef is masterful with his instrument - the position as a shill and snake oil salesman. Obviously the product is horrendous crap. To call that copy paste mini player a media player, is just insane! But they will come out with some kind of a player eventually, they are not even close to loosing this battle. They are too experienced at this and I'm sure they have done it many many times before.

If you want to see how a real garage inventor genius looks and acts like, you need to observe Jim Hillegass, the maker of JRiver. Grumpy, cunty, uncommunicative, zero customer service skills, product improvement obsessed. He growls at you like a kodiak mama bear protecting his cub from criticism.

Josef Piri isn't inventing anything. The time he invested in shilling on forums he could have made 10 Scientific studies, but I doubt he can even understand one, let alone write one. Soo much resemblance with Rick Schultz from Virtual Dynamics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibmETcjcWdg)...

JosefPlay - JimRiver. Get it? A total ripoff.

They want idiot money, they want them real bad and they are grabbing them. The JPlay forum (http://jplay.eu/forum/jplay/) has 20,000 + members! Its technically a cult.

20,000 x 130$ = $2,600,000

Consider some have bought the scam and never registered on the forum. They have no more than 1000$ invested in the website with hosting included. Thats it. They went 2,600 times their investment.

And now audiophile USB cables. Awww. Lessloss (http://www.lessloss.com/) watchout!

Here is another fun read about audiophile scams: My cat tore up my Virtual Dynamics Power 3 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/293165/my-cat-tore-up-my-virtual-dynamics-power-3)

P.S.

I am really happy JRiver and Foobar are blocking this scam and taking a stand. The egg throwing crowds are tough but you are the only hope for them to wake up to the reality that they have been scammed. Cut the tumor off your back and never affiliate with them ever.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 01 January, 2014, 04:35:37 PM
http://jplay.eu/jcat/ (http://jplay.eu/jcat/)


*cough*

But if you dare call me a cheat please put forward some evidence of your own or retract the claim…


http://jplay.eu/jcat/ (http://jplay.eu/jcat/)

*cough*
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Wombat on 01 January, 2014, 07:22:12 PM
http://jplay.eu/jcat/ (http://jplay.eu/jcat/)
*cough*

Wow! Silver and Teflon together!
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 02 January, 2014, 01:41:31 AM
Wow! Silver and Teflon together!


I just can't wait for JEther, the audiophile air additive that improves audio transmitted over wireless connections by reducing the feedback from longitudinal waves of pressure - Josef has detected such waves in various listening rooms, and found that they correlate with the bitstream which your DAC actually receives.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: bennetng on 02 January, 2014, 04:32:06 AM
They want idiot money, they want them real bad and they are grabbing them. The JPlay forum (http://jplay.eu/forum/jplay/) has 20,000 + members! Its technically a cult.

20,000 x 130$ = $2,600,000

Consider some have bought the scam and never registered on the forum. They have no more than 1000$ invested in the website with hosting included. Thats it. They went 2,600 times their investment.


Just like there are paid facebook likes, paid youtube comments, human-based CAPTCHA solver, fake reviewers etc, there are fake forum members as well.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: phofman on 02 January, 2014, 04:49:19 AM
Just like there are paid facebook likes, paid youtube comments, human-based CAPTCHA solver, fake reviewers etc, there are fake forum members as well.


I am pretty much convinced of that too. I noticed some users registered on computeraudiophile in several waves of similar dates in 2012, praising jplay uncritically.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Antifremer on 02 January, 2014, 09:00:48 AM
Quote
Just like there are paid facebook likes, paid youtube comments, human-based CAPTCHA solver, fake reviewers etc, there are fake forum members as well.


I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case. But I think we shouldn't underestimate human gullibility as well. I met two audiophiles on a local forum (in a country with 400$ average monthly salary) that bought jplay and one defends it with anger and the other guy is in passive aggressive denial.

JPlay passionate owners remind me of Naim/Linn owners, cult members and young earth creationists.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: includemeout on 02 January, 2014, 09:52:08 AM
It has probably been already linked to, but as I don't recall seeing it on this rather long thread in particular:

By the way even their admin (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/ok-i-tried-hydrogen-audio-it-didnt-go-too-well-13506/) comes over here just to hit and run; and almost have poetry written in his honour by his back-side kissers when he returns back home  , I wouldn't be surprised they have actually decided to embark on a placebologic crusade of sorts against us heathen ones who dare doubt their deities, by dispatching the occasional sentry/sharp shooters to treat us a to a lil' bit of their shoddy wisdom.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: dhromed on 02 January, 2014, 10:20:54 AM
By the way even their admin (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/ok-i-tried-hydrogen-audio-it-didnt-go-too-well-13506/) comes over here just to hit and run; and almost have poetry written in his honour by his back-side kissers when he returns back home  , I wouldn't be surprised they have actually decided to embark on a placebologic crusade of sorts against us heathen ones who dare doubt their deities, by dispatching the occasional sentry/sharp shooters to treat us a to a lil' bit of their shoddy wisdom.


Such drama!

Are we still talking about jplay or about "them vs us"? I personally think neither is terribly interesting.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: includemeout on 02 January, 2014, 10:32:56 AM
I hadn't realised then, but you're right: we have diverted off-topic. My bad also.

But your post's made me wonder if there really is that much than can be said about Jplay anymore.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 02 January, 2014, 02:13:34 PM
made me wonder if there really is that much than can be said about Jplay anymore.


http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=104026 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=104026) gives a reason to say it again once in a while
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 03 January, 2014, 02:55:28 PM
I would like to think Jplay's entry into the cable business has caused at least some to become skeptical of their not-as-obvious software scam.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Gecko on 03 January, 2014, 06:35:38 PM
It's interesting that the cables page is almost devoid of any claims regarding audio quality. I'm expecting raving testimonials sooner or later but they themselves are basically just saying:
a) you can use these cables to build your rig
b) SATA cables are as important as USB cables for audio reproduction
c) this is what they are made of...

You can object to the price but I find it hard to disagree with those very basic claims.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: godrick on 03 January, 2014, 06:56:50 PM
The difference between "almost devoid" and "devoid" is significant.  That they use an argument based on ambiguity that is neither innovative nor valid should not be overlooked. Also no need to ignore such disingenuous comments like "We strongly believe that using our line of carefully selected products will help you create the ultimate PC audio transport and get the most out of JPLAY", or "Our extensive tests showed that using audio grade SATA cable is as important for sound quality in a computer audio system as using high quality USB cable with a USB DAC or USB-S/PDIF converter".  If scrutiny of any scam can be so easily stopped by the facile use of "we believe" or "in our opinion", then so be it, but let's put that to the test before giving up.

Also no need to ignore that the ambiguous claims don't support prices 100x conventional cables.  Also no need to ignore the many forum entries in several forums beyond the single cable page.  All of the above are candidates for disagreement, or better yet, demanding proof of claims.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Gecko on 03 January, 2014, 07:53:59 PM
You can find this type of vague argument in many product commercials and every company "recommends" its own accessories to "get the most out of" their product. Usually these accessories will cost a little more than something generic which would work just as well. Would you also call that a scam? Do you demand proof?

There seems to be a certain audiophile clientele which behaves much like people following a religious cult. They are so easily suckered into parting with their money that you don't even have to market superior audio quality. In this case there are no official claims which could be debunked. The dubious claims are provided by the customers. This is a very convenient situation for those exploiting this clientele. They are much harder to unmask than those who do their own bullshit marketing. That's where I see the real problem.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 03 January, 2014, 08:21:49 PM
"We strongly believe that using our line of carefully selected products will help you create the ultimate PC audio transport and get the most out of JPLAY", or "Our extensive tests showed that using audio grade SATA cable is as important for sound quality in a computer audio system as using high quality USB cable with a USB DAC or USB-S/PDIF converter".  If scrutiny of any scam can be so easily stopped by the facile use of "we believe" or "in our opinion", then so be it, but let's put that to the test before giving up.


Problem about those two statements is that one has no need for reservations like 'believe' or 'opinion'. If JPlay delivers a bit-perfect output (by doing nothing to a JRiver setup except wrapping it in some commands), then, well, in terms of bits it is 'ultimate' -- and at HA you would have to back up the contrary claim by evidence. As long as the marketing does not claim improvement but rather perfection in an area where perfection is easy (and using their 'carefully selected products' will help you get that, of course); or that audio grade SATA cables are equally important as audio grade USB cables (it is true, isn't it?) -- then the 'we believe' thing is redundant.

This is certainly the domain of misleading-even-when-true, but not because of the belief thing. It is kinda like "if you do not eat at McDonald's, you will die" -- which is true, as you will die some time.

Edit: Gecko beat me at most of this.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 03 January, 2014, 09:28:51 PM
Extensive test:
We removed the "audio-grade" SATA cable while audio data was being transfered from the drive and audio was lost; just as audio was lost when removing the "audio-grade" USB cable while audio data was being transfered over it. We therefore conclude that they are equally important to audiophile playback...



...or non-audiophile playback, for that matter.

After all, one needs sound in order to have sound quality, no?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Robertina on 03 January, 2014, 10:31:39 PM
With regard to Jplay's marketing phrases, analysed by Gecko and Porcus:

So Jplay's advertisment promises only things which aren't legally recoverable (= promises nothing) and the prospective buyer is expected to pay for these figments of the imagination several hundred euros? Wouldn't this make the potential customer to be Jplay's disenfranchised cash cow?

My point of view is: Jplay's web site gives the impression that your computer will become a 'first-class' playback machine (don't let me define that) if you buy their soft- and hardware. In reality your PC becomes a computer with some deactivated Windows services, stability issues and some teflon coated cables.

"JPLAY instantly transforms your PC into high-end digital transport." (Jplay.eu)
"The shaman can treat sickness caused by evil spirits." (another source)
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Porcus on 04 January, 2014, 07:22:22 AM
I do not say that the marketing ain't illegal -- that is up to the law, which may or may not be sensible -- I am saying that I think that even without the "we believe" issue it is kinda like marketing a $25000 wristwatch with claims that it shows time accurately by the second.

Except that in the market for exclusive watches they likely do not believe the last $20k is essential for that functionality.



"JPLAY instantly transforms your PC into high-end digital transport." (Jplay.eu)
"The shaman can treat sickness caused by evil spirits." (another source)


"Sin like this again and your soul cannot be saved for eternal life."

"Abstinence guarantees against bearing werefolf offspring."

"You haven't studied for the exam tomorrow - bring this magic charm or you will never get an A."

and,  Hungarian mathematician Paul Erd?s suggested
"Finally I am becoming stupider no more"
as his epitaph. I guess he found the cures against age dementia.


Oh, one more:

After all, one needs sound in order to have sound quality, no?


"Match input level to output level and you won't be able to ABX the difference."

(Now playing: 4'33")

Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: IMTanuki on 25 January, 2014, 10:06:05 AM
I just installed and uninstalled JPLAY after discovering it's a POS.

However, even more disturbing, my MS Office license was reset to trial version. I tried re-entering the license key, but no success.

Has anyone experienced this problem after installing JPLAY?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: JJZolx on 27 January, 2014, 10:34:40 PM
I just installed and uninstalled JPLAY after discovering it's a POS.

Why would you install it after discovering it was a POS?

How exactly did you discover this?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: andy o on 27 January, 2014, 11:22:43 PM
I just installed and uninstalled JPLAY after discovering it's a POS.

Why would you install it after discovering it was a POS?

Heh, s/he's saying that it unlicensed his/her MS Office, and that's what you find questionable? Isn't it clear, anyway?
Quote
How exactly did you discover this?

I think this whole thread is a huge hint.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: greynol on 28 January, 2014, 12:12:36 AM
Nah, the unlicensing was in addition to whatever was the reason for it being a POS.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: mudlord on 21 February, 2014, 08:46:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ERMu825m4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ERMu825m4)

Highly recommended to watch.
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: Mach-X on 22 February, 2014, 01:39:39 AM
Amazing that a nicely featured FREE software like Winamp almost died a needless death, and THIS RIDICULOUS POS MALWARE LIVES. Reset your Office License?! Seriously? Am I the only one who sees the sick irony in this?
Title: Jplay - just another scam? YES IT IS!
Post by: andy o on 22 February, 2014, 03:30:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ERMu825m4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ERMu825m4)

Highly recommended to watch.

hey, that dude helped me get a cheap multimeter!

Who came up with "audiophool" anyway? Was it Randi?