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Topic: Rip guide for perfectionists (Read 11642 times) previous topic - next topic
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Rip guide for perfectionists

Hi all!

Ive read topics about EAC's offset is 30 samples away from the absoulute zero point. Some ppl think that ripping without overread will result less perfect rips.

I say the chances are enormous that read offset correction or overreading is only makes sense to match your rip with te accuraterip database.

Why i say that? Because the 99% of the Audio CDs contains enough null samples at it's beginning and at it's end to make this noise useless. Especially, since you can not make sure you've digitalized the whole disc without this check. Let me show this to you:

1. How to check the amount of null samples at the beginning or at the end of an album?
You will need to have SHNTOOL.EXE copied into your path (For example C:\Windows). Let's suppose the rip's folder look like this:
) rip.


5. How to burn it exactly back?
It is recommended to keep the original tracks ripped form EAC's zero point due to the compatibility. However if you want to burn a very-very-very exact copy of such a non-well masterized and positioned album, you will have to use the small file created in the previous point. You must have a single image CUE sheet. If you dont have one, create it with CUE Tools.

Do the following:
  • Trim the null samples from the last track's end with shntools
  • Copy 00.wav next to the album tracks' files.
  • Join them together:
    Code: [Select]
    shntool join -n 00.wav <TRACK1FLACORWAV> <TRACK2FLACORWAV> ... <TRACKN-1FLACORWAV> <LASTTRACK-trimmed.wav>
  • Set the drive's write offset to its normal write offset adjusted with the difference between EAC's zero and the albums zero. In this case NewWriteOffset=DefaultWriteOffset+12=-30+12=-18!!! Remember the difference between offset and offset correction! EAC asks for 'read offset correction' but 'write offset'!. Use this write offset setting to this album only!
  • Burn the produced joined.wav to CD-R using the single image CUE sheet (probably you will have to edit the file name manually inside the CUE sheet...
Conclusion
I would like to see if ripping software would automatically report in the log file the amount of null-samples at the beginning and at the end of the ripped material. That would save time.

Thats all, hope you enjoyed it... Hehehe.

Cheers,
RS

Rip guide for perfectionists

Reply #1 –
Or you can just rip with a Plextor PX-760A and burn with an LG GSA-H10A.

Rip guide for perfectionists

Reply #2 –
Quote from: RamonSalazar on
I say the chances are enormous that read offset correction or overreading is only makes sense to match your rip with te accuraterip database.
I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly (this sentence doesn't make sense), but AccurateRip ignores the first 2940 samples of the first track and the last 2940 samples of the last track in order to compensate for drives that can't overread.  IOW, unless your offset is greater than 2940 or less than -2940, overreading has absolutely no bearing on the ability to match your rip with AccurateRip.

Quote from: RamonSalazar on
5. How to burn it exactly back?
It is recommended to keep the original tracks ripped form EAC's zero point due to the compatibility. However if you want to burn a very-very-very exact copy of such a non-well masterized and positioned album, you will have to use the small file created in the previous point.
You've completely overlooked the fact that very few drives can actually overwrite into the lead-in/-out.

Quote from: valnar on
Or you can just rip with a Plextor PX-760A and burn with an LG GSA-H10A.
If you are really keen on this business with a shift in reference by -30 being the true one (), you rip with a Plextor PX-7XX or Premium with 0 entered for the read samples offset correction and burn with any (true) Plextor with 0 entered for the write samples offset.  This way all the samples based on the supposed true offset can be read as well as burned.  If you go with the Andre's reference (the standard!) then what you said is absolutely correct.

In order to preserve these "critical" () non-null edge samples you need to burn with a drive that either has no write samples offset, can overwrite into the lead-out if the write samples offset is negative (only a couple of obsolete Teac drives can do this), or can overwrite into the lead-in if the write samples offset is positive (this is a more generic case, but still there are few reports of drives being able to do this either).

Rip guide for perfectionists

Reply #3 –
Quote from: greynol on
In order to preserve these "critical" () non-null edge samples you need to burn with a drive that either has no write samples offset, can overwrite into the lead-out if the write samples offset is negative (only a couple of obsolete Teac drives can do this), or can overwrite into the lead-in if the write samples offset is positive (this is a more generic case, but still there are few reports of drives being able to do this either).


I know curiosity killed the cat, but which obsolete Teac drives?  Since I have a handful of old Teac drives here in my collection.

-brendan

Rip guide for perfectionists

Reply #5 –
Quote from: greynol on
I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly (this sentence doesn't make sense), but AccurateRip ignores the first 2940 samples of the first track and the last 2940 samples of the last track in order to compensate for drives that can't overread.  IOW, unless your offset is greater than 2940 or less than -2940, overreading has absolutely no bearing on the ability to match your rip with AccurateRip.
Ok you have rigth with overread but if you don't set the necessary read offset correction, EAC will not check for AR matches. Sorry for my bad english, it is not my main language.
Quote from: greynol on
You've completely overlooked the fact that very few drives can actually overwrite into the lead-in/-out.
Yes but ripping the whole content is possible with a lot of drives (pl,pion,yama...) I also said that not a big deal if the drive is not capable to do this 'only for perfectionists' method. Some samples lost is not to worry about. But IF you at least can read it why dont do it? IF you can burn it exactly back too, that is a bonus. I've also said that this magic trick would only make sense for a very few disk. Of course nobody can actually hear the difference between a null and a +1/-1 sample.

Cheers,
RS

Rip guide for perfectionists

Reply #6 –
Hi,

About this so-called absolute zero reference offset, there is something I don't really understand now when I compare offset values of Plextools Pro XL and EAC. I read somewhere that both Plextools and EAC were using the same "30 samples off" read offset value originally calculated by Andre but that's not what I see. I have a Plextor PX-130A DVD-ROM and the read offset values are the following (given by the softwares) :

- Plextools Pro XL : -2832 bytes = -708 samples (read offset)
- EAC (AccurateRip) : +738 samples (offset correction corresponding to a -738 samples read offset). This value should be decreased by 30 samples to be at the "abolute zero" value ie 708.

So... if I understand correctly, Plextools Pro XL really uses the absolute zero reference offset value which is different from the EAC (AccurateRip) value.

Did I miss something ?

Aramys

Rip guide for perfectionists

Reply #7 –
Although I don't know Plextools much, your conclusion seems correct to me. I must aware that these hyphotetic zero points do not apply to the real discs: They have various zero points.
  • Unfortunately if your drive don't rip from the album's reference point by default, it have to be able to overread to rip the entire disc.
  • Fortunately there is a high probability that the missing parts contains only null samples,
  • Which causes that the own zero point of the disc irrelevant and undetectable.
  • More important criteria against the software's reference point to be single and close to the expected value of the disc's zero point.
  • EAC's (and AR's) ref point meet these conditions.
  • However there could be some audio CD-s which have audio data out of the default EAC range (For example the one I've presented, or some old AAD discs).
  • That's why I use silence checkout for the first and the last track, and if it's necessary I rerip the first and/or last track with another read offset correction. I personally save the difference into small .wav files, and I make a batch file which produce the image.wav from the album's zero point. How? It join the small file to the beginning of the first track and cut the same length from the end of the last track, or opposite.
  • Why?
    Quote from: greynol on
    You've completely overlooked the fact that very few drives can actually overwrite into the lead-in/-out.
    To give another answer: My method overcome (or at least equal good than) the standard, even if writer is not able to overwrite.
  • I highly advice to rip from EAC's zero; use the standard method. Only when silence checkout fails there are more things to do. Therefore if Plextools adjust your read head to the absolute zero, i won't use it. A >=4 AR confidence is better guarantee than T&C CRC match or anything else.
I've posted to EAC forum the request that EAC should report (LOG) the length of silence at the beginning and at the end of the album.

Re: Rip guide for perfectionists

Reply #8 –
Howdy,
This topic feels pretty dated to post in, still I'll try to bump it up, and maybe someone will help me to get into bitwise recording.
So I've found a couple rips I've made more than a decade ago... and finally I'm about to record them on a CD-R because my original CD collection is out of reach.

Luckily, I still have a HDD with a few rips. Could somebody please explain how to record the bitwise copy? I have tried to recall the burning procedure to which I learned to back in the days, but... it feels like I've forgotten everything.

* So I have a proper CUE with a single FLAC image which I've managed to unpack and get a WAV from it.
* The available EAC log reads the original CD was read with Read offset correction of 102 samples.
* I have LiteON's external DVD burner that reports itself as Slimtype - eBAU108 6 L, and AccurateRip's database says it has a +6 offset correction.

How do I configure EAC to write the bitwise copy without loosing samples? It feels like the procedure described in this topic misses some steps. I can't figure out, do I have to specify 102-6 samples? Look forward to hearing from you.