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Topic: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)  (Read 13711 times) previous topic - next topic
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Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

I saw this article by PC gamer  and it mentions this

"If you have a USB DAC and are experiencing issues, you might consider Schiit's Wyrd USB Decrapifier, which cleans up and rechecks the USB signal, virtually eliminating any problems you may have with your DAC, unless the DAC itself is going bad. We have two Decrapifiers, and they work."

I'm still fairly new into the headphone hobby and still learning how to not fall into the traps of " The Woo Audio WA7d ..... it's well known in the audio community that tube amps create a silky, warm tone to music, but the WA7d doesn't color your audio in a way that makes it inaccurate. In fact, quite the opposite is true. " There have been reviews on it on youtube claiming the complete opposite.

Wouldn't extra hardware worsen the signal going into a source like a computer?

I know its PCgamer but its still a mass consumption media outlet, but if its bad information, its bad for everyone. If I'm wrong then I stand corrected.

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #1 –
There are two aspects to this.

One is power:
A) USB provides power (5V), which typically is not ultra clean. This is in the specs however and device manufacturers know this. If they needed an ultra-clean power supply for their bus-powered device, the device needs to clean up the power. If the manufacturer doesn't care, doesn't know what he's doing, or in cases of extreme (i.e. broken, out of spec) ripple a cleaner extra power supply can help.

B) is ground loop problems. For example some people with a laptop with the AC adapter plugged in and a non-isolated USB interface connected to some AC-powered equipment complain, that they get humming or buzzing sounds.
One solution to this is simply getting a two pin, isolated power supply.
An "USB cleaner" device can only help if it provides the power and isolates the connected device from the computer's power.


Two is data:
A) Dropouts and glitches are typically wrong buffer settings, or very commonly DPC latency problems in the Windows kernel due to bad drivers (for any device in your computer). "USB cleaners" don't help in such a case.

B) Wyrd product description says it helps with dropouts when the computer goes to sleep, or that the device is not recognized at all. This only happens when the USB implementation on your mainboard is broken.
An extra clock or regeneration also only can help if you use very long USB cables or if both your computer and the connected device have broken USB implementations.


---

tl;dr: In a world where people would know what they are doing, all of such products would be a complete waste of money. Since that is not the case, there are few situations where such a device could help (but there usually are other and imho better solutions to them).
"I hear it when I see it."

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #2 –
It is not clear what this device actually does. The description certainly fails to convince me. There seem to be two aspects:
  • There seems to be a "USB repeater". I take this to be a USB hub with only one port used. Every USB hub acts as a repeater. I don't see how the Wyrd differs from what a hub does anyway.
  • There seem to be linear regulators for the power that is fed to the downstream device. If you buy a hub, you usually can connect a power supply to it. If you like a linear supply, you can connect that, there's no need to use the exact wall wart that came with the hub, provided the voltage and current ratings are correct. Even better, you could power the USB DAC directly with its own power supply. The regulators in the Wyrd would be unused in such a case.

I don't see why I should pay 100 bucks for such a trivial function, which pretends to fix something that should be fixed by the USB DAC itself, if it should be wrong at all. Why not use the 100 bucks to get a better DAC that doesn't have the problem in the first place?

Edit: Oops, xnor was faster...

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #3 –
Any USB hub will lower noise to some extent, but the better solution would be something like this:

http://hifimediy.com/usb-isolator

Or better yet, if your PC has optical output, just get a DAC with optical input.

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #4 –
@pelmazo yes, essentially it appears to be a $100 single-port USB "hub" with audiophile power supply. ;)
"I hear it when I see it."

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #5 –
Quote
"If you have a USB DAC and are experiencing issues...
And if you are not having problems, the device isn't going to magically improve your sound.

Quote
Wouldn't extra hardware worsen the signal going into a source like a computer?
Since it's digital, not necessarily.   As long as the 1's are recognized as 1's and the 0's are recognized as 0's, the digital data remains perfect.  Think about the Internet and all of the hubs, routers, wires, and fiber optics that the signal goes through...     One of the examples I use is - "If there's a typo in this post, it's probably my mistake.   The typing didn't get corrupted by the Internet."

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #6 –
Still a mostly stupid product.

I think it's mainly small, portable DACs or cheap audio interfaces that are bus-powered.
In the former case, who would buy an extra box that one needs to carry around and also needs an outlet? I guess that leaves mostly customers with desktop DACs that are powered by an AC adapter, i.e. not bus-powered...
In the latter case, why not just buy a better audio interface in the first place instead of spending another $100 on an extra box that's supposed to reduce the brokenness of cheap devices?
"I hear it when I see it."
 

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #7 –
Thank you to everyone who posted here. You've done a real service to me. It just seems every time I hear people glorify Schiit, they only seem to be able to give me subjective opinions on it and never compare it to lesser known, cheaper but equally competent products.

I was curious as I just purchased a fiio k1 for my mac mini due to some audio issues I posted before, but testing it out with some music, there is still some hissing on some music ( live recording) but on others there are no issues so I guess I can chalk it up to the recordings. Would have liked an optical out on the K1 but can't have everything. I'm assuming the USB isolator won't do much since the K1 lacks power?

My setup is mac mini 2009-> fiio K1 -> AKG K7XX.

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #8 –
Quote from: HeadEx on
I'm assuming the USB isolator won't do much since the K1 lacks power?
You mean the K1 doesn't have enough power for your headphones? The USB isolator certainly can't change that.

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #9 –
Quote from: xnor on
Still a mostly stupid product.

I think it's mainly small, portable DACs or cheap audio interfaces that are bus-powered.
In the former case, who would buy an extra box that one needs to carry around and also needs an outlet? I guess that leaves mostly customers with desktop DACs that are powered by an AC adapter, i.e. not bus-powered...
In the latter case, why not just buy a better audio interface in the first place instead of spending another $100 on an extra box that's supposed to reduce the brokenness of cheap devices?

A lot of USB receiver chips are unfortunately bus-powered, including the ones in Schiit DAC's.

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #10 –
I'm still amazed when "technical" magazines that normally perform extensive benchmarks of CPU's, graphics cards, etc., suddenly forget all their knowledge and common sense when the subject of audio comes up.

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #11 –
Here our member amirm measured the most legendary, audiophile 1-port USB hubs and how they even may worsen the output of a well done DAC Audioquest-Jitterbug-and-Uptone-Regen-USB-Conditioners
The thread became pretty long. This is what AJ calls Comedy Gold :)
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #12 –
Quote from: theriverlethe on
A lot of USB receiver chips are unfortunately bus-powered, including the ones in Schiit DAC's.
I don't think that's bad at all. Powering the USB receiver from the bus, and the rest of the circuitry from its own power supply, opens up a rather simple opportunity for galvanic isolation between the PC and the audio system. They would have to galvanically isolate only a few signals in the box, for example using optocouplers. And of course they would have to mount the USB connector in a way that isolates its shell from the audio ground.

If they did that, I would call it clever.

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #13 –
Quote from: pelmazo on
Quote from: HeadEx on
I'm assuming the USB isolator won't do much since the K1 lacks power?
You mean the K1 doesn't have enough power for your headphones? The USB isolator certainly can't change that.

No just wondering about noise. I've been trying to do an RMAA test but even after installing WINE into my computer and trying to run the program can't be sure what's going on inside.
Quote from: Wombat on
Here our member amirm measured the most legendary, audiophile 1-port USB hubs and how they even may worsen the output of a well done DAC Audioquest-Jitterbug-and-Uptone-Regen-USB-Conditioners
The thread became pretty long. This is what AJ calls Comedy Gold :)
Thanks for the link. I'll read through it!

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #14 –
Quote from: pelmazo on
Quote from: theriverlethe on
A lot of USB receiver chips are unfortunately bus-powered, including the ones in Schiit DAC's.
I don't think that's bad at all. Powering the USB receiver from the bus, and the rest of the circuitry from its own power supply, opens up a rather simple opportunity for galvanic isolation between the PC and the audio system. They would have to galvanically isolate only a few signals in the box, for example using optocouplers. And of course they would have to mount the USB connector in a way that isolates its shell from the audio ground.

If they did that, I would call it clever.

Interesting, does anyone actually do this?  Hopefully, they use a USB receiver that can be powered by an iPhone...

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #15 –
As a side note, with "bus-powered device" I mean devices where especially the output amplification is powered e.g. by USB.
"I hear it when I see it."

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #16 –
I don't see a problem with running the analog bits off of bus power. Plenty of high end scientific equipment runs off USB or pcie power.  With proper power supply filtering and a capacitively coupled output to avoid ground loops it should be fine.

Seems to me the real problem is badly designed equipment.

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #17 –
Quote from: saratoga on
I don't see a problem with running the analog bits off of bus power. Plenty of high end scientific equipment runs off USB or pcie power.  With proper power supply filtering and a capacitively coupled output to avoid ground loops it should be fine.

Seems to me the real problem is badly designed equipment.

Including the ODAC? :P

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #18 –
What about the odac?

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #19 –
Quote from: saratoga on
What about the odac?
Revision "A" had problems with some USB ports: http://blog.jdslabs.com/?p=1003
Quote
One of the first bits of ODAC feedback we received in 2012 revealed odd behavior: severe distortion, completely resolved by a USB hub. This peculiarity would ultimately affect less than 0.5% of all users, and the simple USB hub solution became well known within the audio community (later published to ODAC’s operating instructions).
The behavior was later identified as a power supply regulation design choice made by NwAvGuy. ODAC performs consistently with all devices, unless the host USB bus has remarkably low ESR ceramic capacitors placed too closely to the USB 5V output pin (rare). When ODAC is connected to such a host computer, ODAC’s 3.6V linear regulator performance plummets from 100% stable operation to extreme oscillation, which turns the perfect audio signal into garbage (lots of very audible distortion). There is no in-between. The regulator is either 100% stable, or 0% stable. Consequently, we’ve offered support for this rare behavior since 2012.

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #20 –
Quote
There is no in-between. The regulator is either 100% stable, or 0% stable

I love problems  like that. No chance at all of my audiophillia nervosa re-occurring! I have an ODAC: No, in my system, it does not exhibit this problem.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #21 –
Quote from: saratoga on
I don't see a problem with running the analog bits off of bus power. Plenty of high end scientific equipment runs off USB or pcie power.
I didn't want to imply that analog bits shouldn't be powered from the bus, I wanted to point out a good opportunity for galvanic isolation. It is not a power supply noise argument, it is a ground loop argument.

Quote
With proper power supply filtering and a capacitively coupled output to avoid ground loops it should be fine.
How do you avoid ground loops by capacitive coupling of an audio output?

Quote
Seems to me the real problem is badly designed equipment.
+1

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #22 –
Quote from: saratoga on
I don't see a problem with running the analog bits off of bus power.
Sure, it can be totally fine, but it also can suck... see my first reply.
"I hear it when I see it."

Re: Cleaning up USB signal to improve DAC with more hardware? (PC Gamer article)

Reply #24 –
Quote from: theriverlethe on
It is susceptible to ground loops and noise.
In audible way?

Cheap solution for ground loop: