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Topic: [TOS #2] Re: How many plays before a record shows enough deterioration to be noticeable? (Read 1920 times) previous topic - next topic - Topic derived from How many plays before...
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[TOS #2] Re: How many plays before a record shows enough deterioration to be noticeable?

Quote from: cliveb on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: cliveb on
When I listen to the two samples, I hear a "freshness" and clarity in the laser sample compared to the needle one. For example, the cymbals have more sparkle. I am realistic enough to acknowledge that this could simply be down to different frequency responses.
I think an important and relevant personal  facility for ignoring tics and pops is being afflicted by one or more common hearing disorders affecting the ability to hear high frequencies. I know for sure that some older friends who are "rediscovering vinyl" fit this profile.
Sorry Arny, are you saying that I'm able to ignore tics and pops because I have some kind of hearing disorder?

Since you decided to make a general comment personal by owning it, well that's interesting!

I have no idea, and I wouldn't expect you to admit it in public were it true.

 You might not even be aware of it.

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I am frankly staggered that any time anyone ever disagrees with you, your response is to let rip with both barrels.

You have no clue what both barrels look like.

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And in this case I wasn't even disagreeing with you!

Really?  Looked like the first round of personal comments didn't get the effect you seem to desire, so you came back with more.

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What's also interesting is that you choose to target one small part of what I posted - even though my very next sentence points out that it isn't the main thrust of what I was getting at.

Really? It was only one of the several points I brought up.

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. Do you want to debate the core hypothesis I put forward, or do you just want to pick a fight?

Please do tell what the core hypothesis was without being personal and attacking.


Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Ever hear of TOS8?
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Yes, and if you like I could post a FB2K ABX log showing 100% ability to distinguish the two samples.

I'm not sure what that would prove. If you don't remove the tics and pops then the difference in that area is a slam dunk tell. Remember, I did ABX them. FWIW it was positive. I just didn't post a log. 

I also made a specific claim that my hearing is damaged by age and chemotherapy to the extent that any failure of mine to reliably detect  a difference is meaningless by the standard of anything like normal hearing.

If you remove the tics and pops, it is easy enough to do that in such a way to  generate  enough artifacts to obtain another round of slam-dunk differences.

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But you had already stated they are obviously different, so I assumed that wasn't necessary.

Fair enough.

The trick is to remove the tics and pops without creating any tells.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
It is easy to show how your answer is dismissive and non-responsive, not to mention in violation of forum rules.

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Frankly, I expected nothing better. I get it. In your mind you are right because you think you are right, science and forum rules be damned.
How many times have you berated people for arguing against things that you never said in the first place?

Fair amount. In other words what you described is a Straw Man argument, and if I had a nickel for every Straw Man argument that I've been pelted with, I'd run right out and buy a brand new  ELP just for grins... ;-)

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And yet that's exactly what you're doing now.

Prove it.

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What is it that you believe I think I'm right about?

Maybe, that you can pummel me with personal attacks until I let you get away with the obvious TOS8 infraction.  BTW you onus on you is not to show that there is an audible difference but that it is due to a certain audible difference  other than the obvious one.

Actually, the fault you described was not stated in a unique scientific way, and therefore it is probably not falsifiable. Since you did it twice in a row, it must be intentional. What is your point - that you can turn HA into another typical audiophile site with meaningless claims about audibility?


Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
There's a better way to at least attempt to collect reliable and relevant evidence related to  this question. Make the tics go away without affecting the remaining properties of the recording. I think that is  is doable. But there's no reason to do so because of the anti-science posturing.

Making the tics go away and doing a DBT  would be umm like scientific...
As it happens, audio restoration of vinyl LPs is one of my hobbies, and as you say, removing the tics is eminently doable.
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I know that very well, and so all the trips and stumbles surprised me. I expected better.

Merely making the tics go away is too easy, for reasons given. For a valid test it has to be done without introducing audible changes that are not audible to the point of masking any other audible difference, and also not cause differences in audible artifacts from the noise reduction steps itself.

Saying that an actual test is Mission Impossible is acceptable, but saying that and claiming that an audible difference surely exists seems to violate TOS8. If you can't  prove it with a good DBT don't say it, seems to be  the gist of TOS8. Sometimes Science demands a bit of personal discipline.

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So let me make sure I understand. Do you think that if the tics and pops weren't there, then an ABX comparison wouldn't find any differences?

I think that isn't a good statement of the problem. First, you (or someone who can do it) need to clean up your description of your claimed fault(s) a way that is like good science.

Then you(or someone who can do it)  have to remove the tics without creating any artifacts that would be tells.

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Because if that's what you're saying, and if you're prepared to take the test, I will de-tic these samples so you can ABX them for yourself.

I think the first thing I would do is ABX one of the de-ticked files with a de-ticked version of the file with the fewer tics, tics removed by a means that meets my standard for not adding artifacts. If that is successful, then I'd compare the two files you de-ticked.

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On the other hand, you've already stated that the tics and pops are not the only audible difference - just the most obvious.

Thank you! But you misquoted me.

I'll admit to saying that the tics and pops might not be the only audible difference

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So presumably you will expect the de-tic'd samples to still sound different.

That is an hypothesis that I was alluding to. I don't know whether it can be supported well enough or not, but there seems to be something that might be gained by giving it the old Science Try.

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In which case, what exactly are you attacking me for?

Bad science. 
Gratuitous subjectivity
Two infractions of TOS 8
Failure to do the right thing on your own, with out  all of this needless drama.

I mean, your posts on this topic are probably good enough for AVS, one of the Stereophile forums, Computer Audiophile or some place like that...

Re: Re: How many plays before a record shows enough deterioration to be noticeable?

Reply #1 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
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There's an interesting psychological difference between how we responded to these samples. Could it be that the flaws of vinyl get under Arny's skin in such a way that he can never enjoy it, whereas I can somehow "dial it out"?

BTW this is false, because I can enjoy listening to vinyl if it is done well. I have a vinyl rig, actually more than one. I have LPs.

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...In other words, we can place listeners into two categories: those who can (to some extent) dial out the faults of vinyl in order to enjoy the music, while others find those faults so off-putting that they simply cannot stomach listening to vinyl.

I believe that's true.  Vinyl defects bothered me back in the vinyl days, and now they bother me even more!

However, the difference may not be purely psychological, or psychological at all. For example, lets say that hearing vinyl artifacts are something like perfect pitch, which it is well known that it (1) exists and (2) is not characteristic of everybody.

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It seems fairly clear that audiophiles who prefer vinyl and claim it's superior (I'm not including you, Clive) are not bothered by the noise, or at least not bothered by occasional low-level noises...   

Back in the vinyl days, defects seemed to bother me more than they bothered my "casual listening" friends and acquaintances.  And, I was more bothered by the clicks on my records I was familiar with than by defects on other's records...  I knew when the tick was coming and I'd be anticipating it instead of enjoying the music.

It's also fairly clear that in those days, "audiophiles" were  bothered by vinyl defects as there was lots of interest in caring-for and preserving records.

I also remember visiting a house with a high-end stereo when I was a "kid",  They had a pair of those cylindrical Empire speakers.  The were playing an (distant?) FM radio station and the hiss from the tweeters was terrible!  (Our stereo at home probably didn't have tweeters.)  Nobody else seemed to be noticing the "poor sound quality".

But interestingly, I preferred vinyl over hissy (commercial) cassettes with rolled-off highs, and I never actually bought any cassettes, although I copied my records to cassette for listening in the car.  (8-Tracks were out of the question, since sometimes the track would change in the middle of a song.)

Back in the day for whatever reason I was less sensitive to tics and pops and groove hiss than many, even less so than  some who were in other ways more sensitive to tics and pops than I.  Ironic. Here's an example:  My father had a friend who loved vinyl but hated the tics and groove hiss. He criticized my stereo on that account.  His solution was low pass filtering that I thought sounded like it was the speakers, that I felt took too much life out of the music. I just listened past the tics and hissing to get the music I loved.  LP was all we had in those days.

Interestingly enough I recently  ended up at his house for an estate sale after he died which was earlier this year. He made it up into his late  90s.  From his house, he remained musically active as a performer,  and played his stereo right up to the end.

He still had the old console that he had back in the day, only with updated electronics and turntable. My recollection is that he still listened through the magic speakers from back in the day, the ones that apparently reduced the hiss enough for him and destroyed the music way too much music for me..