HydrogenAudio

CD-R and Audio Hardware => Audio Hardware => Topic started by: smg on 2002-06-18 03:09:22

Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-18 03:09:22
I've been away for a week and tring to catch-up on whats been going on (can't find a thread on secret mailing list) But i've been reading up on

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/showth...=&threadid=2223 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2223)

Everyone had valid points some i agreed with some i didn't.  So it got me wondering what sort of Hi Fi Equipment everyone uses to base their opions on.  So I tought I'd get a discusion going on equipment.
I myself collect and restore what I call clasic (1967 - 1980) equipment.  Back when a Stereo was a Stereo.
My main system is
Receiver:  Marantz 2600.  300 watts @ 8ohms  20Hz - >20KHz  THD 0.05% at 300    watts.  Capacitors the size of 12oz beer cans.  I could go on and on forever about this unit.  Never really got into amp/preamp
Turntable:  Technics SL1600.......
CD Changer:  Pioneer PD-F905 - Nothing spectacular
Speakers:  Marantz Imperial 9.  2-10" woofers  4 Midrange drivers  2 Tweeter drivers
20Hz - >20KHz  SPL 100 db....I could go on forever over these also.

So...just wondering what everyone else is using.

BTW Fewtch The reason for my wanting to put my Lps on hard drive I've some irreplacable Music on those Lps

BTW so everyone knows where i'm coming from I grew up in the sixty's When we imearsed are self in our music.  ( Sometimes with a little help )
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-18 04:00:59
Quote
Originally posted by smg
Turntable:  Technics SL1600.......

That's a nice one, a real 'tweaker's' turntable from the looks of it.  I almost dropped in a bid on one at one point, just to have it... very nice looking (and I'd guess nice-operating too, if kept 'in tweak' properly .

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=1360647734 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1360647734)

As for your question, I don't really use major stereo equipment, I live in a condominium where everything is very closely together, and a lot of people around here (not me though) get up early & work on tight schedules.  Neighbors would be calling the police if I cranked something like your Marantz system even to 5% of max volume .

Headphones, headphones...
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-18 04:34:55
fewtch  I certainly can understand your situtation with the condo.  However you sound like someone who could get into classic equipment.  I'm telling you the secret that i've known about these systems Is getting out and someday you won't be able to afford one.  The system I've been after for awile is now out of my present price range.  (Sansui G33000).  Check out the specs.  This unit is over 100lbs
(Pioneer SX1980) Check out the specs.  Start out with something small (EBAY)
IMHO Sansui G series 8000 9000 8700 9700
Sansui 7070 8080 9090
Marantz model 2270 and above
Pioneer SX1050 and above.
Get them while you can.  You won't regret it
BTW the Technics SL1600 was part of my original system I bought it new in 1976.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-18 05:00:13
Quote
Originally posted by smg
fewtch  I certainly can understand your situtation with the condo.  However you sound like someone who could get into classic equipment.

Sure, I probably could.  Some of it is bordering on 30 years old though, a point will arrive where the electrolytic caps start drying out, pots & switches need replacing, etc... maybe I should take a few more electronics classes first .

But yeah, I can appreciate that stuff.  Even "non-classic" stuff from the 70's & 80's was/is better in many ways than recent stuff.  Modern electronic equipment is designed to wear out fast, so people will go spend money on new stuff -- seems like "planned obsolescence" started somewhere in the early to mid-80's.  I can still remember the $400 stereo system my parents had in the mid 70's (3 foot high speakers with large woofers, midrange & tweeter, everything glass & brushed aluminum, glowing dials, heavy flywheel on the tuner, 100 watts/channel)... these days, that amount of cash (granted, money doesn't go as far) will buy a bookshelf system made of cheap plastic, or a poor quality Dolby 5.1 system with tiny speakers.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: Pio2001 on 2002-06-18 12:30:42
Quote
Originally posted by smg
wondering what sort of Hi Fi Equipment everyone uses to base their opions on. 


Digital CD Playback in the computer :
CD Reader, Winamp 2, SQRsoft crossfading plugin, (see the speakers for the DSP)
Marian Marc 2 optical output

Sony DTC 55ES DAT deck. The heads are dead, and it costs 380 € each two years to change them... I gave up. I kept it as a DAC. I like it very much. I tryed to upgrade for a standalone DAC : a cheap Micromega Microdac, 350 €, but it was worse than the built-in DAC :mad:

Technics SL-3100 turntable... a mysterious unreferenced model. I removed the lower plate and it stands on two spikes that bear the drum, and one spike that bear the axis of the arm, all on a 60 kg piece of stone.
Stanton Trackmaster EL catridge : very large and accurate stereo image.
Vinyls are played directly on the drum, no slipmat. Two upside down glasses weight on the record to prevent it from slipping.

Yamaha tuner (560 ?), for local stations.

Teac V2030S for cassetes (usually TDK MA with Dolby C), now obsolete compared to CDR burning.

Audio Control 10 2x10 bands graphic equalizer, now replaced with Shibata's DSP for Winamp, exept for vinyls, or computer games.

Arcam Diva A85 ampli, 130 W / 4 Ohm

Dynaudio Gemini speakers, hand made kits, quite high end. Amazing low frequency power for their size.

Equalization : parametric settings in Shibatch super equalizer :
Right : -30 db from 40 to 62 Hz
Left : -10 db from 42 to 58 Hz (in order to kill a resonance in the room)
Both : -1.5 db from 2000 to 20000 Hz in order to correct a defect in the original Gemini filter.
Stand on stones put on some kind of white concrete blocs.
Width of stereo : 180°
I know it's not advised, but that's just me : I like being at the first row in theatre, and having 180° stereo listening to music (because I was addicted to headphones maybe).

Line cables : RG179bu, silver plated. Tested in the monitor loop of the ampli : nothing modified on the sound.
I think their quality comes froim their tiny size : it allow to sold them very cleanly, using very little tin.

Speaker cables : huge coaxial A2 used for urban digital TV and Internet. 12mm2 solid copper core.

AKG K-400 headphones (treble correctors missing), too much highs.

Edit :

The DAT acts as both DAC and ADC : it is wired to the ampli and the computer, so that I can record any source on the computer.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: kritip on 2002-06-18 13:16:18
I have been slowly removing all of my HiFi infavor of a PC centered multimedia system so now the only components i have are as follows:

Yamaha DSP A592 5.1 channel amp (only 5.1 inputs though, not digital decoding)
With Bi-Wire capability

Sony MDS-JE520 Minidisc Recorder (VERY VERY rarely used)

B&W D601 Series 2 Stereo Speakers.
Bi-wired

Speker cable, unknown at the moment, but won lots of awards and rather thick copper, cost about £14 per meter


My output from my computer is a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz.

All of my Audio is FLAC'ed so therefore lossless, and my computer holds all of my CD's and few of my records and also my ripped DVD's to play back on teh TV


I the future i would like a better amp ( preferably just stereo for audio playback and kepp my yamaha for films etc. )My dads Audiolad A8000 is very sweet! but would like optical in and a new souncard to eliminate electrical interference, Any Suggestions on these??

My minidisc player will be going soon as well.


Overall, not to bad a system, more than adequate for me and probably better than some others!

Cheers,
Kristian
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: ErikS on 2002-06-18 13:28:21
Quote
Originally posted by kritip
I have been slowly removing all of my HiFi infavor of a PC centered multimedia system


How do you solve the problem with noise from the computer? I've reduced speed of fans and isolated as much as I dare with regard to heat, but it is still not quiet enough. Any other tricks worth trying?
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: kritip on 2002-06-18 14:37:43
Quote
How do you solve the problem with noise from the computer? I've reduced speed of fans and isolated as much as I dare with regard to heat, but it is still not quiet enough. Any other tricks worth trying?


Basically, reducing fan speeds and removing some fans as well as mounting hard disks with rubber grommits etc to reduce vibrations. I shoul be water cooling most stuff very soon and that will only leave hard disk noise which i've just been experimenting with and destroyed a drive. See here for more:

HERE (http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=180446)

But my main idea is to create a low power, ie via EPIA 566 fanless system with a wireless network card which boots of a server in another room meaning no hardive in order to play music.
The server can then be as noisy as it likes and the entertainment PC can be lugged about anywhere in the house!!

Cheers

Kristian
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: tonderai on 2002-06-18 14:55:31
I've just bought most of my system  So here it is:

Edirol UA-5 sound card (external usb, 24/96, with digital (coaxial + optical) and analogue ins/outs, and variable sample rate (44.1, 48, and 96 play + record)

NAD C350 stereo amplifier

B&W DM303 stereo speakers, and a Mordaunt-Short subwoofer (MSW300, i think)

NAD C321i CD player (the 20bit DAC here still sounds better than the 24bit one on the edirol)

Pro-ject Debut Phono turnable with Ortofan cartridge.


My laptop has a tiny hard-drive (only 2GB free  ) so i play mpc standards off cdrs by sorted by genre. Not too bad using 950MB cds

got to go, cheers, tonderai
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: ben on 2002-06-18 16:45:08
Here's mine:

1) Winamp using MAD and 48khz output, Diamond Multimedia MX300
2) Marantz CD-67SE CD player
3) Cary Audio Design SLP-98 Preamp
4) Custom 7watt amplifier
5) Custom speakers
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: kennedyb4 on 2002-06-18 17:47:04
Almost all digital from computer now.

1 SBlive card
2 Winamp with Mad, Peters new re-sample plug-in, Shibata-sans eq
3spdif out to Yamaha rx 795a amp
4 B&W 602 S2 speakers  (unbelievable value)
5 Paradigm PS 1200 Subwoofer
6 Nice Sony three head cassette deck that now gathers dust.
7 Sony PS X6 turntable with ortofon moving coil cartridge.
8 JVC DVD/SVCD Player
9 Koss KSC 35's for private listening.
10 Sony DFS 18 Portable cd player. Plays cd/rw flawlessly. Pick a handfull, burn and jog:D

Most excellently happy with all this except the computer is too loud. That's next to fix.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: Annuka on 2002-06-19 00:37:00
Quote
Originally posted by smg

So...just wondering what everyone else is using.


- Snell .5 speaker set, E.5, SR.5 and CR.5
- Sony VA8ES integrated (analog) surround amp.
- Sony EP90ES DAC with Dolby Digital
- Sony XA20ES cd player, not used much
- Pioneer DVL-909 laserdisc and dvd player
- Quiet computer with SB Live and digital cable to DAC
- 40 sqare meter listening room (5x8 meters) with fantastic accoustics, excellent lights and cabling mostly inside the walls.
- Bi-wiring with network cables.
- Cheap, but effiencient, AC filter
- Soundstyle rack on spikes - recudes vibrations to hifi units

Most of it purchased 1998.
Still satisfied with it after four years. Hope to keep the system for at least 10 years.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-19 00:42:31
Quote
Originally posted by Annuka
Most of it purchased 1998. 
Still satisfied with it after four years. Hope to keep the system for at least 10 years.

In 10 years, the computer is gonna look like a 386SX-20 looks now... you might think about changing or upgrading that part of it, at least...
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-19 03:14:12
Wide variaty Thats for sure.  Everything from pure analog to pure digital and some hybrids mixed in.  The only thing that I've seriously never thought of trying were headphones.  Sounds like I need to consider a pair. 

Pio2001 I'm trying to understand this statement: "Vinyls are played directly on the drum, no slipmat. Two upside down glasses weight on the record to prevent it from slipping".

Is there a purpose to this method that I'm unaware of?
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: bryant on 2002-06-19 06:26:59
Quote
Originally posted by smg
Wide variaty Thats for sure.  Everything from pure analog to pure digital and some hybrids mixed in.

True, but not all that wide a variety if you consider it's almost all solid state! 

Here’s my main listening system:

McIntosh MX-110 stereo tuner/preamp (all vacuum tube, circa 1965)
McIntosh MC-30 monoblock amplifiers (all vacuum tube, circa 1955)
Ampex 960 2-track stereo reel-to-reel deck (all vacuum tube, circa 1960)
ElectroVoice Interface: C (series II) equalized 3-way speakers (circa 1980)
Linn Basik turntable with Akito arm and Shure V15 cartridge
Philips DCC-900 digital compact cassette deck
Technics DVD-Audio player

My computer system:

M-Audio Delta-Dio 2496 audio card
MSB Technology Link II 24/96 DAC
Audio Alchemy headphone amplifier
Sennheiser HD-580 headphones
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: Pio2001 on 2002-06-19 11:48:07
Quote
Originally posted by smg

Pio2001 I'm trying to understand this statement: "Vinyls are played directly on the drum, no slipmat. Two upside down glasses weight on the record to prevent it from slipping". 

Is there a purpose to this method that I'm unaware of?


I found the sound better when the vinyl was put directly on metal (or glass, I started this with the Rega Planar 3 tunrtable) instead of cloth or rubber.

There is a drawback : the metal drum of the Technics turntable has a little step just under the pregroove of the bottom side of the record. Putting the record on it, then moving it to center it properly increases the background noise of the pre groove, that gets slightly scratched.

I didn't carefully pay attention, but I think on the other hand that slipmats gather dust, contrary to rubber or glass/metal.

Now that you're asking, I guess I'll have to record and ABX it anyway...
Well, ABX will be easy, since the rubber is 5 mm thick, and there is a difference in treble just because the stylus is no more horizontal.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: godzilla525 on 2002-06-20 09:22:48
Time to cue up the laugh track... but before you do, note that I read the sale papers!

Unfortunately I don't have any rich audiophile relatives to get nice hand-me-down 70's amps from so...

Points of origin:

Optimus SCT-56 dual casette deck, MFG by Pioneer (purchased on clearance--RCA switchover)
- Full Auto Reverse, All electric (no mechanical pushbuttons except for eject)
- Automatic tape bias selection, Type I, II, IV
- Full-time Dolby HX Pro, NR can be B, C, or off
- Works with Reciever's wireless remote

Optimus CD-8200 25-disc changer, MFG by Pioneer (gift)
- Marginal-quality internal 1-bit DAC bypassed by means of optical-out
- Plays my CD-R's but will not play CD-RWs
- Also compatible with Receiver's remote and has its own as well

Technics SL-D3 Turntable (gift)
- There's a thread I started here (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2207) devoted to it

Quasar VHQ560 VCR
- 4-head Hi-Fi Stereo VHS and dBx Stereo Tuner

Points of convergence:

Computer:
- Terratec EWX24/96 in Receiver's Tape Monitor loop
- Windows XP Pro/Corp or whatever the heck bulk liscenced is (legal copy)
- Optical output from CD-changer is connected to the EWX
- Yamaha SoftSynth legally (?) ganked from Corp. WinXP Update site
- Winamp with MAD 0.14b plugin (is it me or is the MAD project dead?)
- Creative DVD8400E 8x/40x DVD-ROM (Panasonic SR-8585)
- Lite-On LTR-32123S 32x/12x/40x CD-RW drive (I use Taiyo Yuden CD-R discs burned at 4x or 8x for audio)
- Creative Dxr3 decoder card (Real Magic Hollywood +) if I feel like it.
- 80GB Maxtor for storage space

Receiver: Optimus STAV-3370 Dolby Pro-Logic, MFG by Pioneer (sale item)
- Two-speed, always-on 60mm fan-cooled tunnel heatsink with all discrete TO-3PL output devices.
-- When it gets hot, the fan will get the full 24VDC during loud passages and will throttle back to 12VDC idle during silent parts.
- HEAVILY modified by me for "enhanced transient-signal performance" :evil:
- 110w RMS x2 channels (8ohms) in Stereo mode, 0.09% THD Main L&R
- 100w RMS x4 channels (8ohms) in Pro-Logic mode, 0.9% THD in Center & Surround channels.
- B+ to B- voltage of 130VDC in Stereo mode, 110VDC in Surround  (Paltry 8200µF filter caps, though I have added some more in "strategic locations")
- I have managed to pulse 10A through a 4-ohm 12" speaker (=400w peak, accidentally bottomed out the voice coil).
- Full overload and short circuit protection for dolts like me.
- I leave it almost always in stereo mode.

Speaker Cable:
- 14AWG OFC braid to the stereo pair
- 24AWG 4-cond solid telephone wire going 3 feet to the sub (it's powered--I just need a voltage signal)

Speakers:
- Cerwin Vega HT12-PWR 12", dual 3" ports, 150w RMS built in amp with level control, clipping indicator, crossover, phase switch, power switch, and wireless remote.  Huge monster that weighs in at 70 lbs.  Good to about 30Hz.

- 2x Optimus PRO-X44AV (clearance--sold as RCA now) shielded die-cast with 4" driver, 1" soft-dome tweeter. 50w RMS but will take more abuse than that.  Good clarity and soundstage, and no noticeable cabinet resonance. I will never go back to wood or plastic speakers again!  Downside: They absolutely require a subwoofer.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-20 12:07:24
Quote
Originally posted by godzilla525
Time to cue up the laugh track... but before you do, note that I read the sale papers!


I'ts all a matter of preferance along with Economics.

  "Unfortunately I don't have any rich audiophile relatives to get nice hand-me-down 70's amps from so..."

Forunately high quality 70's equipment is still affordable.  However I must caution you that if you don't have the money, do not listen to 70's Marantz Sansui or Pioneer
You'll have to have it and you'll sell your mate to get to get it

LOL
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-20 20:16:36
Is there anyone around who still repairs 70's power amps, etc?  I would think within another 5-10 years, capacitors will start drying up, pots will need replacing, flywheel tuner systems will need overhauled, etc.

There could be a lot of "hidden costs" in 70's equipment a bit down the road, unless you're an electronics expert.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-20 21:35:25
Quote
Originally posted by fewtch
Is there anyone around who still repairs 70's power amps, etc?  I would think within another 5-10 years, capacitors will start drying up, pots will need replacing, flywheel tuner systems will need overhauled, etc.

There could be a lot of "hidden costs" in 70's equipment a bit down the road, unless you're an electronics expert.


Your still thinking of the new modern junk that is designed to break down.  Yes there are places that do repairs.  Any electronic shop.  I collect 70's equipment along with Lp's.  Have 15 various recievers and dozens of speakers.  3 reel to reels  4 turntables.  over 8 thousand lp's.  Rarely if ever have any problems with recievers besides an occasional squirt of contact cleaner on the pots.  The crossovers on the speakers I get somethimes are bad.  and they can be a pain to find.  But it's all a labor of love.

BTW I'm thinking of expanding my collection to start including Amp/Preamp/Tuners  Told myself along time ago I wouldn't......Oh Well
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-24 06:29:44
I just bought this tuner today... this might be a little too "retro" even for you smg (or too cheap)  ... who can complain for $23.00?  I bought it purely for the looks, looks *great* next to digital computer equipment! (hahahaha!):



I plan to hook it to some old amplified computer speakers I'm not using, to start with .  Maybe start dabbling around again with a little AM-band DX'ing, picking up long distance stations at night with it.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: ff123 on 2002-06-24 07:26:32
Quote
Originally posted by fewtch
I just bought this tuner today... this might be a little too "retro" even for you smg (or too cheap)  ... who can complain for .00?  I bought it purely for the looks, looks *great* next to digital computer equipment! (hahahaha!):

I plan to hook it to some old amplified computer speakers I'm not using, to start with .  Maybe start dabbling around again with a little AM-band DX'ing, picking up long distance stations at night with it.


lol!  Does it have an AFC switch or does it actually do PLL to keep the station from drifting?  I see the little meter to tell you when you've got maximum signal strength.

My first FM stereo was a faceplate for a console with the electronics hanging bare off the back.  I had to save up something like $25 to buy it, and still had to put it on layaway because I didn't have enough to pay for it all at once.  After listening so long to my little green Panasonic ball (I don't know what they called those things), the thing sounded so good, it was like heaven.



ff123
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-24 08:02:05
Quote
Originally posted by ff123


lol!  Does it have an AFC switch or does it actually do PLL to keep the station from drifting?  I see the little meter to tell you when you've got maximum signal strength.

Not sure, it was another Ebay impulse buy and hasn't been shipped yet.  Looks to me to be about mid 60's, maybe a little later.  I liked the retro look of it, it will be an interesting contrast to the rest of the junk I got around here .  Might look better cleaned up & touched up with some paint too.

OK, maybe I could have gotten it free or even cheaper at a thrift store... but the seller deals regularly with old equipment (they have a website at www.vintagetechnology.com (http://www.vintagetechnology.com)) and probably wouldn't sell something in crap condition.

That green ball is interesting btw, never seen one of those before.

P.S... one of these days I'm gonna have to get a tube amp or radio, just for the fuzzies of it  .
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2002-06-24 14:46:54
Can I suggest some real classic hi-fi? I've never heard anyone say that the 1970s were a good time for audio, so I'm bemused by the discussion in this thread!

Worth finding are:

Turntables: Garrard top-of-the-range turntables 301 or 401, with a nice SME arm. You need a good solid plinth too.

Not sure about classic cartridges or Pre-amps, because I've always had "modern" ones. I know the top Decca cartridge and arm of the period were designed with the 301 in mind.

Power Amplifiers: Quad II or Leak Stereo 20 or Radford STA25 3

Speakers: Quad ESL 57 or 63 or (on a budget) some of the older Wharfedale designs were great.


I don't have a working vintage set-up at the moment, but the ones I've heard have been magic.

I have no idea how much of this is available in the USA. I assume you have your own classic hi-fi, but it seems to be the the British stuff from this era that is collectable - many a Garrard/Quad system been purchased by hi-fi enthusiasts from Asia.

That fact that discerning people from that continent are so keen to collect British Audio equipment from the 1960s tells you all you need to know about their own audio equipment from the 1970s!

As always, there are exceptions.

Cheers,
David.

P.S. You could put a nice (though not classic or ground-breaking) vintage set-up together for under £200 with a cheaper Garrard deck, a Rogers HG-88 integrated valve amp, and some decent but long-forgotten speakers. Way more fun that all this 1970s transistor rubbish! :-)
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: bryant on 2002-06-24 16:54:49
Quote
Originally posted by 2Bdecided
I have no idea how much of this is available in the USA. I assume you have your own classic hi-fi, but it seems to be the the British stuff from this era that is collectable - many a Garrard/Quad system been purchased by hi-fi enthusiasts from Asia.

That fact that discerning people from that continent are so keen to collect British Audio equipment from the 1960s tells you all you need to know about their own audio equipment from the 1970s!

The best known classic USA hifi brands are Fisher, Scott, Marantz and McIntosh; and  tube equipment from the latter two brands is in just as high demand in Asia as that Euro rubbish.

Unfortunately, except for McIntosh, these companies were bought out by Japanese firms around 1970 who used only the names to help peddle varying grades of transistor hardware made over there. Now, the names Fisher and Scott are associated with the lowest grade of consumer junk, while Marantz has always tried to stay a little more "high end". In fact, not too long ago Marantz created some beautiful reissues of some of their best tube gear from the 60s.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-24 20:40:43
Quote
Originally posted by 2Bdecided
Can I suggest some real classic hi-fi? I've never heard anyone say that the 1970s were a good time for audio, so I'm bemused by the discussion in this thread!


To each is own David but before you knock 70's Hi-Fi check out some of these specs.
http://www.classic-audio.com/ (http://www.classic-audio.com/)

fewtch let me go on record as saying I warned you about starting to dabble in 70's Hi-Fi.  They all come for "retro" but always stay for the quality
Read some reviews:
http://www.audioreview.com/Receivers/Sansu...77_1593crx.aspx (http://www.audioreview.com/Receivers/Sansui,9090DB/PRD_118777_1593crx.aspx)
Then move on to Marantz and Pioneer Sx
You won't go back!!!!

LOL

BTW....The 70's Was the decade for Quality wars among the top manufactures of HI-Fi Equipment.  The 80's on, we were forced to accept the cheap underpowered tin sounding plastic models all in the name of corporate profit.  After a period of time sub-standard becomes the norm and most will accept it without ever having experianced true QUALITY!!!!!
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-25 00:07:05
Quote
Originally posted by 2Bdecided
Can I suggest some real classic hi-fi? I've never heard anyone say that the 1970s were a good time for audio, so I'm bemused by the discussion in this thread!

On the contrary, I can't think of any "bad" times for audio... provided the money flows freely .

smg: The issue of 70's audio is more complicated than that, I think.  For one, what was unaffordable to most in the 1970's can now be purchased far cheaper (well within the range of the 'average income') as used gear -- and what's unaffordable to most people in 90's or 2000's gear, remains unaffordable.  So it isn't an entirely fair comparison, IMHO. 

Yes, I agree that the 'middle end' 70's stuff was a lot better than the junk being cranked out now, especially regarding build quality.  As for sound quality, I'm not quite as sure -- sheer wattage doesn't equate to quality, and the human ear can only hear so much (as we all know from messing around with lossy compression). 

After some point, what you're paying for is some elusive (probably imaginary) thing called "impeccability" -- known only to those willing to spend $5,000+ for a turntable lacking a tonearm/cartridge .
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-25 02:27:43
Quote
Originally posted by fewtch

On the contrary, I can't think of any "bad" times for audio... provided the money flows freely .

smg: The issue of 70's audio is more complicated than that, I think.  For one, what was unaffordable to most in the 1970's can now be purchased far cheaper (well within the range of the 'average income') as used gear -- and what's unaffordable to most people in 90's or 2000's gear, remains unaffordable.  So it isn't an entirely fair comparison, IMHO. 

Yes, I agree that the 'middle end' 70's stuff was a lot better than the junk being cranked out now, especially regarding build quality.  As for sound quality, I'm not quite as sure -- sheer wattage doesn't equate to quality, and the human ear can only hear so much (as we all know from messing around with lossy compression). 


I'll let you off the hook with that assumption.  However check specs and not just wattage.  how they were built. mine has eight transisters outputs per channel compare that with any today.  Most of all listen to them.  Prove is in the pudding.
look at the massive heatsinks, Massive Transformer for Pure DC power.  Capacitors big a beer cans All relates to CLEAN sound.  Listen to one before you say we can't hear the difference.

Sorry just passionate about 70's Hi-Fi equipment
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-25 04:34:31
Quote
Originally posted by smg
Sorry just passionate about 70's Hi-Fi equipment

Heck, no need to apologize for it.  I'm a big fan of 60's/70's Moog synthesizer music (have paid $100's for records), & there are a lot of people who would get a good laugh out of that . 

(not suggesting interest in 70's equipment is funny, but maybe mine is).

Anyway, maybe I'll get into 70's hi-fi equipment eventually.  The only thing is, the issue with living in a condo and not being able to crank music (period) puts a big damper on the idea of buying much equipment (there's not much extra room around here either).  Generally, headphones & digital music have to suffice (just collecting gear and not really using it isn't my cup of tea).  But my living situation could change sometime, of course
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: godzilla525 on 2002-06-25 04:46:07
I did some digging around the house and came up with a Pioneer SX-535 Receiver.  It needs fixed, though.  One of the speaker outputs has some nasty DC voltage present.  If it's a keeper, I might put forth the effort to fix it.  Large power transformer and filter caps, but it only has a single pair of T0-220 output transistors per channel.

http://www.classic-audio.com/pioneer/sx0535.html (http://www.classic-audio.com/pioneer/sx0535.html)

Just pictures, but no data.  Oh well.  It's gotta be better than the hybrid IC stuff they sell these days!

...One note about filter capacitors:  They have been able to improve their size/capacitance ratio over the years.  What really matters is if they just use thin posts that get soldered onto PC boards (weak!) or if they have beefy screw terminals and thick wiring.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-25 04:57:03
Quote
Originally posted by godzilla525
Just pictures, but no data.  Oh well.  It's gotta be better than the hybrid IC stuff they sell these days!

I'm no expert on audio gear (hardly even a beginner), but is there something inherently 'crappy' about IC based stuff?  Again, I agree 100% on the subject of build quality (and the sterile look/feel of a lot of today's gear too), but am not convinced that something priced $500 in the 1970's sounds that much better than something new costing $1500 now (taking into account inflation).
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: Cygnus X1 on 2002-06-25 05:14:14
I have to agree with you guys here. . .70's components rock (so does the music!). My dad used to have an old Marantz amp that put out the warmest, fattest sound I have ever heard  to this day. In comparison, my Yahama "natural sound" amp is colder than a witch's titties in a brass bra, even with LP's. Maybe being born in the 70's and having been exposed to analog equiptment for many years has predisposed me to prefer analog amps, though in my mind I know that digital should sound just as good.

I'll tell you what, I wanna cry when I hear a buddy say "Man, I just got the sweetest stereo" and I go over to thier house only to find a  $130 Aiwa plastic-ass piece of shit pumping out that wretched Eminem fellow. I guess good sound died around the same time good music did
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: godzilla525 on 2002-06-25 05:18:53
AHA! found some specs: http://www.classicaudio.com/value/pio/SX535.html (http://www.classicaudio.com/value/pio/SX535.html)
Heh heh.  Their unit actually has the fuse cover.  MSRP $300.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm talking primarily about power ICs.  They replace most of the amplifier circuitry, including output stages, with an epoxy-potted module that has an aluminum backplate that gets bolted to the heatsink.  I'm not too sure why they're so bad myself, but some of them tend to have very high distortion specs, and the silicon transistor chips that get placed in them probably haven't been matched with each other too well.

I have a little Pioneer SX-212 that has a hybrid module in it.  I'm not sure how old it is, but it looks to be late 80's.  I might even have the owner's manual for it someplace...  I'll just have to do some more digging!
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: gdougherty on 2002-06-25 07:20:48
Just wanted to pipe in here as a recording engineer and say that while it's not necessarily a bad thing, stereo components that sound "warm" "fat" and "round"  aren't necessarily honest either.  The biggest inherent difference between IC and analog equipment is that analog distortion is not necessarily a bad sound, but IC does sound bad when driven into distortion.

I'm not trying to root for $130 AIWA systems, my personal taste runs into the $4000 range from brands like Rotel and B&K.  I'm simply saying that modern digital equipment might sound cold and sterile playing Led Zeppelin's original recordings because 70's recordings were geared towards 70's equipment.  I imagine there are a fair amount of modern recordings that would sound muddy and unclear on some older analog equipment.

Just a thought,

George
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: paranoos on 2002-06-25 07:58:24
heh ok here's a small intro to ME before i start my post.

I'm only 20 years old (seems like most of the guys posting here are 30+) and i only started getting into higher-quality audio recently, around the time i started listening to modern rock music, mostly Canadian stuff

Anyway, my dad has had a Marantz 2220b since my parents got married in '76. It's been sitting in the dining room collecting dust for a long time now, as my father started using my $250 (canadian dollars, folks) Sharp mini-system which sucks royal ass on the quality department. He also got some cheap "200W" speakers recently, also shit.

Just to have some fun, i took my new Sony MDR-CD380 headphones and a Panasonic portable CD player that i got a couple of years ago, hooked them up to the Marantz receiver, and played with it. I think the unit could use some cleaning as turning the volume knob can cut the sound out completely, or add static... and if you leave it just a certain way, it can cut the L or R channels. weird stuff.

I was moderately impressed with the system... nothing spectacular, as the receiver is only a 20W per channel amplifier (not that i was listening any louder than that), there's a bit of hiss in the sound, and it sounds completely flat when the Loudness button is switched off (as far as I know, it's an algorithm that boosts certain frequencies to make it sound warmer).

I wouldn't say it sounds noticeably different than my SBLive, which is a shame (either on my part, or on the equipment's). Looks quite cool and retro, and I especially like the gyroscopic tuning wheel for the radio.


That was the old, now into the upcoming...

Once I start working at my new co-op job this coming september, I will be heading down to Bay Bloor Radio, Toronto's audiophile store. They have a package called the "Challenge System", named that way to "challenge" the nasty Home-Theatre-in-a-Box systems from brands such as RCA. It's priced at $2000 canadian, and comes with 120-feet of Monster cable, which is more than enough for the fairly small room i'm setting up in, and they will deliver and install the system at my house for free.

Currently, the system includes:

Denon AVR-1602 Receiver
Energy Take5.2 speakers (4 satellites, 1 centre, 1 subwoofer... it's only named 5.2 because it's better than their previous model, the 5+1)
Panasonic DVD-RV32

as a note, Energy isn't really known worldwide... they are a Canadian company based here in Toronto... they are known to rival Bose speakers in size and quality... these speakers are quite small, but have a surprisingly large sound... I have heard demos of the system at the store, and I've read a review from an audiophile magazine that awarded it one of their Product of the Year awards.

ok ok I admit, not exactly audiophile equipment if you ask me... this is basically the lowest-end package they sell. And I think I will be getting the most benefit from the system when I have my friends over to watch a movie, which happens quite often.

Comments?
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-25 19:03:14
Quote
Originally posted by Cygnus X1
I have to agree with you guys here. . .70's components rock (so does the music!). My dad used to have an old Marantz amp that put out the warmest, fattest sound I have ever heard  to this day. In comparison, my Yahama "natural sound" amp is colder than a witch's titties in a brass bra, even with LP's. Maybe being born in the 70's and having been exposed to analog equiptment for many years has predisposed me to prefer analog amps, though in my mind I know that digital should sound just as good. 

I'll tell you what, I wanna cry when I hear a buddy say "Man, I just got the sweetest stereo" and I go over to thier house only to find a  0 Aiwa plastic-ass piece of shit pumping out that wretched Eminem fellow. I guess good sound died around the same time good music did


I heard an interview with Eric Clapton and he said that if he were born today he would probably be a plumber because music today has "no Heart, no Soul" . Nothing left in music today but money.  Erics opinion....I agree with him.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-25 19:05:33
Quote
Originally posted by gdougherty
Just wanted to pipe in here as a recording engineer and say that while it's not necessarily a bad thing, stereo components that sound "warm" "fat" and "round"  aren't necessarily honest either.  The biggest inherent difference between IC and analog equipment is that analog distortion is not necessarily a bad sound, but IC does sound bad when driven into distortion.

I'm not trying to root for 0 AIWA systems, my personal taste runs into the 00 range from brands like Rotel and B&K.  I'm simply saying that modern digital equipment might sound cold and sterile playing Led Zeppelin's original recordings because 70's recordings were geared towards 70's equipment.  I imagine there are a fair amount of modern recordings that would sound muddy and unclear on some older analog equipment.

Just a thought,

George

You may have a point because most of what I listen to 60's 70's Rock.  I'll have to experment alittle
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-25 19:10:37
Quote
Originally posted by godzilla525
I did some digging around the house and came up with a Pioneer SX-535 Receiver.  It needs fixed, though.  One of the speaker outputs has some nasty DC voltage present.  If it's a keeper, I might put forth the effort to fix it.  Large power transformer and filter caps, but it only has a single pair of T0-220 output transistors per channel.

The Sx 525 was a lower end model.  They started to Rock with the sx1050 and higher model.... It will probably cost more to repair it then to acuire one of the more premier models.  IMHO
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: Cygnus X1 on 2002-06-25 19:23:48
Quote
Originally posted by paranoos
heh ok here's a small intro to ME before i start my post.


as a note, Energy isn't really known worldwide... they are a Canadian company based here in Toronto... they are known to rival Bose speakers in size and quality... these speakers are quite small, but have a surprisingly large sound... I have heard demos of the system at the store, and I've read a review from an audiophile magazine that awarded it one of their Product of the Year awards.


Comments?


I own a pair of Energy towers and two XL-15's for my rears, and they rock, eps. for thier size and price.

I agree with my fellow 60's/70's rock fans. . .nothing beats the sound of some older amps. Here's a quiz for you fellow classic-rockers. . . .from where is my screename derived?
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: bryant on 2002-06-25 20:35:59
Quote
Originally posted by Cygnus X1
I agree with my fellow 60's/70's rock fans. . .nothing beats the sound of some older amps. Here's a quiz for you fellow classic-rockers. . . .from where is my screename derived?  

I noticed your screen name (and profile) before and guessed where it came from. I believe that it turned out not to be a black hole after all  , but it's no rush to judgement that it was a great album.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-25 21:58:52
Quote
Originally posted by Cygnus X1


Here's a quiz for you fellow classic-rockers. . . .from where is my screename derived?  


bryant beat me to it. So I say FAREWELL
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: bryant on 2002-06-25 23:19:57
Quote
Originally posted by smg
bryant beat me to it. So I say FAREWELL

Haha! Well, I may have been first, but I was wrong. I thought that I had read that it had been determined that Cygnus X1 was actually a neutron star or some other boring thing (meaning that Stephen won the bet), but a quick web check indicated that a black hole is still the best guess. Maybe they will know for sure by 2112!
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-25 23:37:17
Quote
Originally posted by bryant

Haha! Well, I may have been first, but I was wrong. I thought that I had read that it had been determined that Cygnus X1 was actually a neutron star or some other boring thing (meaning that Stephen won the bet), but a quick web check indicated that a black hole is still the best guess. Maybe they will know for sure by 2112!

I agree the black hole theory seems to be Closer To The Heart.  Anyway It's out of the Camera Eye.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: layer3maniac on 2002-06-26 00:33:43
I saw Rush in a little bitty movie theater in Austin Texas back in 1976. They played 2112 in it's entirety. Those really WERE the days... I still have my old Teac reel to reel and you guys would be AMAZED at how sweet it sounds.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: Pio2001 on 2002-06-26 01:14:07
Quote
Originally posted by Cygnus X1
my Yahama "natural sound" amp is colder than a witch's titties in a brass bra,


It has nothing to do with the epoch, everyone says so about Yamaha amplis.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: godzilla525 on 2002-06-26 03:57:00
Quote
Originally posted by smg

The Sx 525 was a lower end model.  They started to Rock with the sx1050 and higher model.... It will probably cost more to repair it then to acuire one of the more premier models.  IMHO


Yes, It really isn't too spectacular, just 22 watts. I can easily do better than that with a few transistors, a good op-amp, and a couple of large batteries.  (My 'Headphone Amp from Hell' that I have been making is coming along quite nicely...) The tuner in the old Pioneer might be decent, and I won't have to fix the power stage to have access to it.  It would take more time than money to fix it, as it's probably just a blown transistor ($2 part) or something along those lines.  The hard part is desoldering and removing each component, testing it, then soldering it back in.  It shouldn't be too bad with this one, but I've seen other amps with pseudo-quadraphonic effects circuits executed entirely with discretes that had to set new records in component density. :eek:
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-26 04:11:23
Quote
Originally posted by godzilla525


Yes, It really isn't too spectacular, just 22 watts. I can easily do better than that with a few transistors, a good op-amp, and a couple of large batteries.  (My 'Headphone Amp from Hell' that I have been making is coming along quite nicely...) The tuner in the old Pioneer might be decent, and I won't have to fix the power stage to have access to it.  It would take more time than money to fix it, as it's probably just a blown transistor ( part) or something along those lines.  The hard part is desoldering and removing each component, testing it, then soldering it back in.  It shouldn't be too bad with this one, but I've seen other amps with pseudo-quadraphonic effects circuits executed entirely with discretes that had to set new records in component density. :eek:


What type of headphone amp are you building.  This may be a dumb question because I seldom use headphones but why?  Am I missing out on something without headphones?
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: godzilla525 on 2002-06-26 05:05:46
I'm building my own because some commercially available ones make good white noise generators.  (Good) headphones are better for spotting compression artifacts and subtle details in music because they filter out background noise and don't have the muddying reflection/standing wave problems that speakers do.

...Just a little one that runs on 9 volts (6 AA or AAA batteries, as two separate +/- 4.5V supplies).  I use headphones a lot because I like to listen late at night when I can turn off the air conditioning, but I don't want to keep everyone up.  I'd also like to bypass my main stereo and all its inner workings, including the two 330-ohm resistors that are put in series with the headphone jack.

By building a circuit with an operating voltage low (=voice-coil safe) enough (the stereo by contrast is +/- 68V), I can eliminate these series resistors and improve servo control.  Right now it consists of input/amplification stage based on a NEC C4570C (audio grade, might yet look into a NJM4580) dual op-amp, but since this op-amp works best outputting 10mA into a load or less I added a current-boosting output stage made from a class AB (biased) push-pull complimentary NPN/PNP (NEC 2SD882-Q/2SB772-Q) transistor pair.  I'm still a little concerned yet whether or not I have enough bias to overcome crossover distortion, but initial loopback tests with the Terratec EWX 24/96 are showing pretty good numbers. (0.03%THD, soundcard dominates S/N ratio)  So quiet, I can't even tell that it's on.

This little amp will provide a no-nonsense DC-coupled path from the soundcard to my headphones, while consuming around 12-15mA of power.  That's kind of strange, because all the other ones I've built before had a power-hogging tendency toward thermal runaway. :eek:
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-26 05:26:07
Quote
Originally posted by layer3maniac
I saw Rush in a little bitty movie theater in Austin Texas back in 1976. They played 2112 in it's entirety. Those really WERE the days... I still have my old Teac reel to reel and you guys would be AMAZED at how sweet it sounds.

Any UFO fans here (Michael Shenker)?  I've seen them in concert twice... once back in the mid 80's, the other time in the mid 90's (they played a small, local venue in the Seattle area).  Ohhhh, do they rock! :listen:

So, old Moog synth music is definitely not the only stuff I like...
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-26 05:39:47
BTW, speaking of equipment.  Remember that "unknown model" Kenwood direct drive/linear tracking turntable I won on Ebay?  Well, it ended up being a ripoff -- the mechanism is shot somehow and the needle just drags across the record when the tonearm is supposed to be in the 'up" position.  Also, advertised was a "brand new needle" and a large chip (with plenty of wear) is easily visible with my stylus magnifier.

So, I left a negative feedback for that seller (false description) and am now bidding on a modest but nice belt-drive Technics SL-B2, and the seller is local so I can pick it up & save on shipping.  Only thing is, this is gonna take some tweaking, it's not a "plug & play" turntable... time to start thinking about a stylus force gauge and alignment protractor...  ... maybe a nice new Grado Prestige Black, that should about fit the quality of the turntable.

As for the phono preamp thing, that's taken care of -- Music Hall MMF-1.  Sounds pretty good to me, although the S/N ratio is not so great.  Probably about on the level of the NAD-PP1.  It will suffice.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: layer3maniac on 2002-06-26 05:50:02
Quote
Originally posted by fewtch  
Any UFO fans here (Michael Shenker)?
Phenomenon and Lights Out are still two of my favorite albums. Michael and his older brother's first band (Scorpions) was pretty good too.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-26 05:53:03
Quote
Originally posted by layer3maniac
Phenomenon and Lights Out are still two of my favorite albums. Michael and his older brother's first band (Scorpions) was pretty good too.

4 words -- "Strangers In The Night" (live)

(ok, 5 words)

Edit -- funny coincidence: When searching for "moog" records on Ebay, have been coming up with UFO albums (Phil Mogg, misspelled)...
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: JonPike on 2002-06-26 08:52:26
Quote
Originally posted by fewtch
So, I left a negative feedback for that seller (false description) and am now bidding on a modest but nice belt-drive Technics SL-B2, and the seller is local so I can pick it up & save on shipping.  Only thing is, this is gonna take some tweaking, it's not a "plug & play" turntable... time to start thinking about a stylus force gauge and alignment protractor...   ... maybe a nice new Grado Prestige Black, that should about fit the quality of the turntable.

As for the phono preamp thing, that's taken care of -- Music Hall MMF-1.  Sounds pretty good to me, although the S/N ratio is not so great.  Probably about on the level of the NAD-PP1.  It will suffice.


Sucks about the ebay ripoff..    Hey, tweaking is good.. you can get that cart setup right, and it'll give you the sound it's supposed to..  (needle angle can give you emphasized highs or lows when off the "sweet spot")

Don't tell me you haven't gotten an alignment protractor yet??  You didn't have the other  TT set up without using a protractor??  Thought I sent you the link to the free for a SASE "enjoy the music.com"  cardboard protractor...  that'll save you some bux.

Jon
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-26 09:11:56
Quote
Originally posted by JonPike


Sucks about the ebay ripoff..    Hey, tweaking is good.. you can get that cart setup right, and it'll give you the sound it's supposed to..  (needle angle can give you emphasized highs or lows when off the "sweet spot")

Don't tell me you haven't gotten an alignment protractor yet??  You didn't have the other  TT set up without using a protractor??  Thought I sent you the link to the free for a SASE "enjoy the music.com"  cardboard protractor...  that'll save you some bux.

Jon

True about the tweaking... I guess it's good, and only needs to be done once in awhile.

BTW, I ran into that "Enjoy the music" free protractor offer today, and sent out an SASE.  I'd still have to pay for a stylus force gauge though, unless I just want to guess (probably not a very good idea).  Then again, they're only $15-$20.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-27 08:25:47
Hey, found a link I think folks here will enjoy:

http://www.worldzone.net/music/andystereowz/audio.htm (http://www.worldzone.net/music/andystereowz/audio.htm)

Cheers
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: KikeG on 2002-06-27 11:54:30
Quote
Originally posted by fewtch

http://www.worldzone.net/music/andystereowz/audio.htm (http://www.worldzone.net/music/andystereowz/audio.htm)


Interesting... It's nice to see how he tries to demistify all the audiophile legends and myths over audio equipment, but at the same time it's curious to see how he falls into some of these myths concerning analog and digital sound, cd players and tubes.

Still, good collection of links.


Anyone interested in a new thread discussing over these myths?
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-27 12:00:37
Quote
Originally posted by KikeG



Anyone interested in a new thread discussing over these myths?


Let it rip KikeG!
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2002-06-27 12:23:57
There's one essay topic that the site's author would not be capable of answering: "Explain the difference between fact and opinion".


He doesn't like minidisc, does he?

D.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-27 14:05:55
Quote
Originally posted by 2Bdecided
There's one essay topic that the site's author would not be capable of answering: "Explain the difference between fact and opinion".


He doesn't like minidisc, does he?

D.


Just A couble of quotes trom this link:

http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/business....ae040.402,.html (http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/business.pat,business/30dae040.402,.html)

"Digital doesn't feel like music. You can't lose yourself in it,"

The groove on a record is a tiny reproduction of the sound waves pulsing through the air at a musical event. A cartridge stylus uses the groove ridges and valleys to generate a signal, which is amplified to drive a pair of speakers.

Conversely, a CD contains a musical event that has been continually sampled by a computer and turned into streams of bits meant to approximate the constantly changing recorded sound wave.

The CD sampling process leaves a wave too fractured to sound beautiful, Combs said.

"When you take it apart, you can't put it back together," he said.

Rock musician Neil Young has expressed similar opinions in an essay he published on the problems with digital sound. In fact, Young so dislikes digital that his contract has required his record company to release all his recordings on vinyl as well as CD.

Like many analog disciples, he describes the result in almost spiritual terms.

"You can't measure passion. You can't measure feeling," Combs said. "Digital is all about measurement."
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: godzilla525 on 2002-06-27 14:37:22
Uhhh, yeah, but the idea of digital and all this "measurement" is to get out exactly what you put in, without slowly but surely killing the spirit.  Once you take care of that, the concern shifts to shelf life and aging.

...Hey Neil, Tell me that 30-year-old analog magnetic recording tape and noisy preamp circuitry doesn't destroy the spirit.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: Pio2001 on 2002-06-27 15:36:04
Is it a new religion ?

I must add, because people could take the above as granted, that the "approxiamtion" made by digital measurment in 24 bits is below the the thermal noise of a resistor. Analog is no way more "accurate" than digital, since it is affected by approximations one order of magnitude bigger than digital.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-27 17:47:55
Everyone is still missing the point.  Music is meant to be enjoyed, felt, set the mood.  Not analzied or even have an intellecual discussion about.  Now I do enjoy disscusing ways to recreate it,store it, even tweak it. 
digital is a whole new ballgame for me.  I enjoy it emensly.  However for kicking back and getting lost in the music to me there is nothing that competes with analog.  No need to discuss analog over digital because it is a matter of preverance and it seems that digital freaks won't change the opinions of analog freaks or vice versa.
Converting my analog to digital and burning cd's have become my #1 past time However you could never convince me or any other vinyl freak that digital sounds better...Sorry.

BTW: No need to throw logic into this because there is no logic to emotions (Sweet Emotions)
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: godzilla525 on 2002-06-27 19:52:39
I have nothing against vinyl, especially discs that were pressed (by people who care) when the master tapes were new... but I get (overly) freaked out when I see just a little bit of vinyl dust on the stylus.  I'm too paranoid to enjoy myself.

Perhaps if I had better vinyl equipment and a better selection of recordings I would feel differently.

In the meantime I'll just put the 1997 re-issue of Kind of Blue by Miles Davis or Pat Metheny Group's 'Quartet' in the CD player, sit back, and lose myself in the music...
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: Pio2001 on 2002-06-27 20:48:53
Quote
Originally posted by smg
I enjoy it emensly.  However for kicking back and getting lost in the music to me there is nothing that competes with analog.


Said like this, no problem !
After all, Mozart transmitted us all the emotion of his music in scores, that is ink on paper.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: cmokruhl on 2002-06-27 23:20:11
Main System:
Rega Planet 2000 CD player
Reference Line Audio Preeminence One passive preamp
Pass Labs X5 amplifier
Dunlavy Cantata speakers

Headphone System:
Sony NS500V CD/DVD/SACD transport or
SB Live digital out
MSB Link III DAC
Headroom Home Headroom headphone amp
Sennheiser HD600 headphones


Yes, both systems sound amazing.

-Craig
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-28 01:40:26
Quote
Originally posted by cmokruhl
Main System:
Rega Planet 2000 CD player
Reference Line Audio Preeminence One passive preamp
Pass Labs X5 amplifier
Dunlavy Cantata speakers

Headphone System:
Sony NS500V CD/DVD/SACD transport or
SB Live digital out
MSB Link III DAC
Headroom Home Headroom headphone amp
Sennheiser HD600 headphones


Yes, both systems sound amazing.

-Craig


Hey Craig
Some of your equipment I was not familar with, so I looked them up.....Man your way out of my league.  I'd have to morgage my home to buy your equipment.  Checked out the specs.  Nice system.
I'm Humbled!!
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-28 02:49:49
Quote
Originally posted by smg
No need to discuss analog over digital because it is a matter of preverance and it seems that digital freaks won't change the opinions of analog freaks or vice versa.

Is it "ok" to be neither a "digital freak" nor an "analog freak" but simply to enjoy music?  I agree, the "analog vs. digital" discussion does miss the point.  Listen the way you like (and can afford) and enjoy, music is for everyone.
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: Cygnus X1 on 2002-06-28 03:30:46
I agree wholeheartedly with that last statement. I am a musician and love music, analog or digital, mp3 or CD, 70's amp or 90's amp. While the pundits debate the ages-old analog-digital question, I will be enjoying my music, whether it's crackly analog record cleaned up with Wave Corrector, a crappy 128kbps Xing- encoded mp3 a friend gave me, a CD, or a DAD (16/96).
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: fewtch on 2002-06-28 08:12:01
Well, I'll add a final comment.  I find after recording analog to digital (from turntable) it retains its "warm" sound (quite accurately from the analog)... which shouldn't be happening if digital is the issue.  So, I don't think digital is the problem .

Actually, there's nothing wrong with liking analog distortions, from tubes or turntables or whatever -- even from headphones.  I have a pair of Koss KTX-Pro headphones I use with my portable MP3 player.  They lean heavy on the side of bass (maybe even a bit muddy on the low end).  Maybe not so good with classical and certain other music where transparency is best, but I happen to like added bass so I like the headphones (probably the best pair of $20 cans on the planet.. midrange/treble are very accurate and overall sound is excellent).  I've heard the Koss KTX-Pro and Portapro use the same drivers (but can't verify it).
Title: Hi Fi Equipment!
Post by: smg on 2002-06-28 15:40:05
Quote
Originally posted by fewtch
Well, I'll add a final comment.


Did you think for one minute I was going to let you get the final word in:D