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My first venture into Vinyl
Hi all, this is just some feedback on my first venture into the world of Vinyl. Since I am a big fan of 60's and 70's rock, thanks to my dad, I thought its about time I raided his collection of Vinyl.

I got myself an Audio Technica AT-LP5 and am running it into my Denon AVR-X3300W which has Wharfedale Diamond 230's for the fronts, with a BK Elec P12-300 subwoofer.

All I can say is... Oh my, what have I been missing. It is an absolute PLEASURE to hear these records as they were originally intended and I have very quickly begun to realise what people mean when they go on about bad mastering on certain CD releases of these old records.

I am enjoying it so much that I decided to connect the turntable up to my Soundblaster X7 and 'rip' a few of my favourite LP's in 24/96. I really wasn't expecting such a huge difference in sound, but when I compare for example the CD version of AC/DC Let The Be Rock, to my dads 1977 Vinyl copy its like night and day!

To my ears, and obviously this is subjective, the original record is warmer, smoother and even more 'dynamic' than the CD that I have been listening to for the past 10 years. Switching between my vinyl rip and the cd rip it becomes so obvious that the mastering process for the CD must have just been 'compress the nuts off it and crank the volume!'.

So overall a FANTASTIC new experience for me, just thought i'd share :-)

Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #1
Hi all, this is just some feedback on my first venture into the world of Vinyl. Since I am a big fan of 60's and 70's rock, thanks to my dad, I thought its about time I raided his collection of Vinyl.

I got myself an Audio Technica AT-LP5 and am running it into my Denon AVR-X3300W which has Wharfedale Diamond 230's for the fronts, with a BK Elec P12-300 subwoofer.

All I can say is... Oh my, what have I been missing. It is an absolute PLEASURE to hear these records as they were originally intended and I have very quickly begun to realise what people mean when they go on about bad mastering on certain CD releases of these old records.

I am enjoying it so much that I decided to connect the turntable up to my Soundblaster X7 and 'rip' a few of my favourite LP's in 24/96. I really wasn't expecting such a huge difference in sound, but when I compare for example the CD version of AC/DC Let The Be Rock, to my dads 1977 Vinyl copy its like night and day!

To my ears, and obviously this is subjective, the original record is warmer, smoother and even more 'dynamic' than the CD that I have been listening to for the past 10 years. Switching between my vinyl rip and the cd rip it becomes so obvious that the mastering process for the CD must have just been 'compress the nuts off it and crank the volume!'.

So overall a FANTASTIC new experience for me, just thought i'd share :-)

Why not upload some 30-second selections from your LP and CD rps for the rest of us to listen to?

  • greynol
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #2
"24/96" Sigh.
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

  • mmrkaic
  • [*][*]
Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #3
"24/96" Sigh.

You see, greynol, this (ripping vinyl in 24/96) is an example of nonsense that provoked my earlier post about audiophiles and politeness. Anyhow, wish everyone here a nice weekend.

  • DVDdoug
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Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #4
If you are enjoying vinyl, great!    The whole purpose of music is enjoyment!

Quote
...it becomes so obvious that the mastering process for the CD must have just been 'compress the nuts off it and crank the volume!'.
"Bad remastering" does happen* but there are other things that can affect the sound:  

1.  LP noise (the most obvious difference/defect).
2.  Frequency response variations in vinyl production/playback.  The extreme highs & lows were usually filtered-out as part of LP mastering and there may be unintentional recording/cutting variations.      A lot of older recordings had "dull" rolled-off highs.   Some records sounded better, and classical recordings had a reputation for better quality than rock/popular...   I got the impression  that the record companies didn't care.    Things seemed to improve near the end of the vinyl era.    I assume modern records are better, but I don't know because I stopped buying records when I got my 1st CD player.   Phono cartridge frequency response varies (and sometimes the preamp's RIAA EQ is imperfect).   It's possible for all these accumulated frequency response variations to be heard as an "improvement".
 3. Vinyl distortion.  (I don't hear distortion on most records but it's a problem on some.)

Quote
the original record is warmer, smoother and even more 'dynamic'
"Warmer" and "smoother" do not have agreed-upon definitions and certainly aren't quantifiable.   People often describe slight "pleasing" distortion as warmth.   (I used to associate "warmth" with mid-bass boost, but I don't use that vague terminology anymore because it doesn't mean the same thing to everybody.)    Smooth frequency response  does mean something, but flat frequency response is better.  ;)     And ironically, people often describe music as "more dynamic" after dynamic compression is applied.    (I'm not saying that's the case here.)



* It's a matter of taste, and not all digital is remastered.    Compression/limiting/loudness is not the only thing that can be done during remastering.   There can be noise reduction, EQ, or other effects/processing.     Of course, the mastering engineer wouldn't intentionally make the sound worse, and I assume most listeners would prefer the remastered version or they wouldn't bother doing it.  

...Personally, I like dynamics and it's super-disappointing that they don't take advantage of the wider available dynamic range on (most) digital recordings.      But the truth is, I prefer an over-compressed remastered CD (or MP3) to the original "scratchy vinyl".
  • Last Edit: 11 November, 2017, 12:29:31 PM by DVDdoug

Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #5
"24/96" Sigh.

I understand how technically 24/96 offers nothing for Vinyl over 16/44 however the fact is the technology is there and storage space is cheap. Therefore myself, and many others will choose to use the highest quality format we can regardless of whether or not it offers any listening advantage.

Why not upload some 30-second selections from your LP and CD rps for the rest of us to listen to?

If I am allowed to do that then I will.
  • Last Edit: 11 November, 2017, 12:52:34 PM by tomstephens89

  • ajinfla
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Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #6
Therefore myself, and many others will choose to use the highest quality format we can regardless of whether or not it offers any listening advantage.

Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • DVDdoug
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Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #7
Quote
I understand how technically 24/96 offers nothing for Vinyl over 16/44 however the fact is the technology is there and storage space is cheap.
There's no harm in that.  Your mistake was mentioning it, as-if you thought it was important.  ;)

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...will choose to use the highest quality format we can regardless of whether or not it offers any listening advantage.
It's higher (digital) resolution but it's NOT higher "quality".    The resolution is limited by the original analog resolution (especially the analog noise).  It's a bit like copying a VHS tape to Blu-Ray...  You have a high-resolution format with low-resolution video (and audio).

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If I am allowed to do that then I will.
Quote
Uploads

This is the forum for regular members to upload files for use by others. Hydrogenaudio.org takes no responsibility for the content that may be present here, but states that any misuse of this forum, as deemed by the staff, may result in revocation of the offending users account. Acceptable content includes freely and legally distributable data of the following types: audio programs, audio samples (under 30 second clips), misc. audio related data, or other utilities which are immediately relevant to the Hydrogenaudio.org community.
If you do that, do include the CD clips.  ... I have Let There Be Rock on CD (not vinyl) but not everybody does, and my copy  could be from a different master.



  • Last Edit: 11 November, 2017, 01:39:49 PM by DVDdoug

  • eahm
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Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #8
Well, hold on, if you really want the highest format just in case why don't you rip to something like 2048bit/4Ghz with TTA? It may even be able to go higher since I don't really know for sure what the bit depth limitation is. Storage is cheap, storage is cheap, storage is cheap, you deserve to have each rip to be like 1TB.

Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #9
That 24/96 for vinyl rips is warez scene slang. They just repeat it. You can recognise that terminology often here too.

  • DVDdoug
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Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #10
P.S. - Off topic..
If you like AC/DC, check-out some of their concert videos.   They do a great old-time rock show...  No dancers, back-up singers, fancy sets, or costume changes.    Just Angus Young running all over the place like a maniac, Brian Johnson screaming/growling up-front, and the other guys in the back keeping beat & rhythm going.    The newer shows have the best audio (and video) quality.    There is a Let There Be Rock concert with Bon Scott (their original singer) but the sound isn't very good.  

Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #11
Therefore myself, and many others will choose to use the highest quality format we can regardless of whether or not it offers any listening advantage.
Yourself and not many others over here. Rest assured of that.
Listen to the music, not the media.

Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #12
PS: they're obviously free to roam wherever it pleases them, but boy, am I amused when a subjectivist realises this is just not the place for their technical BS! ;D ;D
Listen to the music, not the media.

Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #13
"24/96" Sigh.

I understand how technically 24/96 offers nothing for Vinyl over 16/44 however the fact is the technology is there and storage space is cheap. Therefore myself, and many others will choose to use the highest quality format we can regardless of whether or not it offers any listening advantage.

Why not upload some 30-second selections from your LP and CD rps for the rest of us to listen to?

If I am allowed to do that then I will.

Who would forbid that? This is considered fair use under this legal doctrine: "Thus, the use of extracts from copyrighted material for illustrative purposes, or merely as a vehicle for an entirely different and noncompeting work, would seem permissible."   This use would be of course for illustrative purposes.  The legal citation is from: JOSEPH C. O'MAHONEY, Chairman, Subcommittee on Patents, Trademarks, and Copyrights, Committee on the Judiciary, U.S. Senate. it is in a document entitled "Fair Use of Copyrighted Works" and was downloaded from https://www.copyright.gov/history/studies/study14.pdf.

  • eahm
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Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #14
They really need to fix how links are linked in the forum and make them ignore the punctuation at the end.

  • greynol
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  • Global Moderator
Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #15
You see, greynol, this (ripping vinyl in 24/96) is an example of nonsense that provoked my earlier post about audiophiles and politeness.
Not the philosophy, the community:  the people, the debates.
 
In previous years I'd be insulted. Now this just bores me.
...and it would seem you have still not familiarized yourself with the history of this community.
  • Last Edit: 12 November, 2017, 01:37:59 AM by greynol
Is 24-bit/192kHz good enough for your lo-fi vinyl, or do you need 32/384?

  • Atmasphere
  • [*][*]
Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #16
Quote
2.  Frequency response variations in vinyl production/playback.  The extreme highs & lows were usually filtered-out as part of LP mastering and there may be unintentional recording/cutting variations.      A lot of older recordings had "dull" rolled-off highs.  Some records sounded better, and classical recordings had a reputation for better quality than rock/popular...  I got the impression  that the record companies didn't care. 
FWIW dept:
During mastering its actually unusual to filter the program material unless requested by the artist. LP mastering otherwise does not result in mastering variations that affect bandwidth. Westerex, Neumann and others were pretty picky about the ability of their product to meet spec!

I do agree that some labels cared far less about quality. IME you can find an engineering solution for a recording that might seem to need limiting, out of phase bass processing or the like, by simply working with the project and making a few test cuts to see what works with a troublesome area. But engineering takes time, and some labels don't want to pay for it. Since the introduction of the Westerex 3D cutterhead in the late 1950s, tape was the bandwidth limit, not the LP mastering process. The Westerex was/is bandwidth limited to 42KHz by filters at the output of the mastering amplifiers.

  • Pusherman
  • [*][*]
Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #17
I really wasn't expecting such a huge difference in sound, but when I compare for example the CD version of AC/DC Let The Be Rock, to my dads 1977 Vinyl copy its like night and day!
I'll bet it's not the 1987 version of CD.

https://www.discogs.com/ACDC-Let-There-Be-Rock/master/8572

So many different versions...

Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #18
I am enjoying it so much that I decided to connect the turntable up to my Soundblaster X7 and 'rip' a few of my favourite LP's in 24/96. I really wasn't expecting such a huge difference in sound, but when I compare for example the CD version of AC/DC Let The Be Rock, to my dads 1977 Vinyl copy its like night and day!
Over the years I have collected LPs, digitised them, and sometimes bought the nice, clean CD version as well. It may be a factor of the period of music that I have, the periods during which the CDs were made, or whatever, but, anecdotally I would have a hard job telling them apart without the noises inherent in often-played LPs.

On one occasion, a friend played an LP and CD version of the "same" album and  anecdotally, no formal test, certainly not blind it hardly sounded like the same band, let alone the same recording. There are a heap of reasons for this, and I am sure it is easy for  music collectors to find many other such examples. What I would assert is that, in no case, is it the simple fact that one is an LP and the other is a CD. Whilst playback equipment may have some influence, in the face of my experience of so many LP/CD versions being, as I say, the same other than intrinsic/damage-caused vinyl noise, the argument that LP/vinyl is intrinsically superior in any way seems, to me, simply daft. And that is before even starting on any of the actual technical stuff.

Playing vinyl is a different experience. There is a thread here about what people subjectively enjoy about that experience. Sentimentally I really miss playing LPs, but not in any other way.
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

  • krabapple
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Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #19
I really wasn't expecting such a huge difference in sound, but when I compare for example the CD version of AC/DC Let The Be Rock, to my dads 1977 Vinyl copy its like night and day!
I'll bet it's not the 1987 version of CD.

https://www.discogs.com/ACDC-Let-There-Be-Rock/master/8572

So many different versions...


This.  The closest to an apples-to-apples comparison would be to a CD version that *predates* the loudness wars.. of which AC/DC remasters were definitely a casualty....my 'digipak' remastered CD of Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap (from 2003 I think) is dynamically squashed.

  • Last Edit: 08 December, 2017, 12:33:21 AM by krabapple

Re: My first venture into Vinyl
Reply #20
P.S. - Off topic..
If you like AC/DC, check-out some of their concert videos.  They do a great old-time rock show...

Case in point.
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.