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Topic: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8 (Read 2575 times) previous topic - next topic
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BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Hello @Peter

the new version 1.6.9 and the previous 1.6.8 (I tested both) don't play WavPack correctly on my system (Win 32bit, 4GB RAM).
WavPack playback is affected by micro-pauses approximately one or two per second.

To be honest are months I don't play .WV files, so I don't know since how long I have this problem on my system (it may be even since a year or so).
All components are current (last version) and I do not have problems playing flac, ape, mp3, alac and ISO SACD files.

Regards, Andrea

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #2 –
What kind of troubleshooting steps have you performed? Have you tried a clean portable install without third party addons, like SACD components? Foo_input_sacd is known to take over WavPack format.

I installed 32-bit Windows 10 just to test this and my WavPack files play without any glitches.

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #3 –
Hello @Case , I removed both foo_input_sacd and foo_dsd_processor and the problem is still there.
So, it should not be related to SACD components.

If you can drive me to "debug" the problem or collect info you may need, I will do.
By myself I don't know what to do because I simply installed only components I really use (VST wrapper, VST Xover, MathAudio Room EQ, Resampler, audio codecs).

Hello @marc2k3 , sorry, not my intention to put stress on you this topic. I did see any further follow-up and I simply supposed that the message was written in the bad "section" or not appropriately addressed.

Thanks both for your kind support.
All the best, Andrea

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #4 –
First, for debugging: Try to make a portable "install", as Case suggests. Make no library no nothing, just drag .wv files into the playlist and see what happens.

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #5 –
Hello @Porcus , @Case , I did a clean install of FB 1.6.9 without any additional component and I listened from the PC headphone output.

In this case, no problem, the .WV files are well played.

Thank you for the tip. Now, I suppose, I shall have to go some more deeper... What should I have to start from? (Considering that I have already removed SACD decoder and verify it is not affecting the problem)

Regards, Andrea

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #6 –
DEBUG NEW INFORMATION

Hello @Case, @marc2k3 and All, I went on investigating my problem and I discovered the following correlations:
1) If I use my default 96kHz DSP chain for headphones listening (ASIO OUTPUT 2CH), I do not have any problem (see "Headphones 96kHz OK.png").
2) The problem is only with my default 96kHz DSP chain for loudspeakers listening (ASIO OUTPUT 6CH) (see "Loudspeakers 96kHz NOT-OK.png".

So, I did some verification changing this last configuration and I can report the following findings (output is all times ASIO 6CH):
a) If I remove the resampling to 96kHz, the .WV files are correctly played at their native 44.1 kHz (no micro-pauses at all).
b) If I replace the RetroArch resampler with the newer, the problem is still there, as well as I move the Resampler after the MathAudio Room EQ, the problem is still there (I cannot test the case to move the Resampler after the Thuneau Allocator because I need to feed it at 96kHz sampling rate).
c) If I remove MathAudio Room EQ, thereof keeping in place the Resampler at 96kHz and Thuneau Allocator, no problem and .WV files can be played as well as at their original 44.1 kHz rate.

So, it looks like there is some kind of strange interaction between .WV files and MathAudio Room EQ at 96kHz sampling rate.
However, my very limited knowledge on Foobar cannot allow me to understand the root cause.
I had care also to take note of the CPU usage and in no case it went over the 50%, so it should not be that problem.

Again, I highlight that my default 96kHz DSP chain for loudspeakers listening works perfectly with any other type of file I regularly play (e.g: flac, ape, mp3, SACD.iso). (Note: when listening to SACD.ISO the CPU usage goes up to 70% max and no problem occurs)

Kindly let me know if I can do anything more and/or the case to notify the problem to the MathAudio section/group.

Thanks and regards, Andrea

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #7 –
WavPack outputs larger audio chunks than other codecs. I'll attach two test DSPs to see if they can work around the issue.

The first one combines small chunks together before outputting them, in case something fills the DSP chain with many small pieces.
The second one splits large chunks into small chunks, in case something chokes when processing large chunks.

You can only install one at a time. Try them at the end of the DSP chain and before the problematic MathAudio DSP.

If these help then it sounds like there is some design issue with the problem component.

Edit: test components removed as they weren't helping.

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #8 –
Hello @Case, thank you for your kind and prompt support but, unfortunately, both rebuffers don't fix the problem.

First I installed the #1 just before MathAudio Room EQ and so I did after with the #2. Both didn't fix the problem.
I then tried to move (one at a time) these on top of the DSP chain and even after MathAudio Room EQ (before the Thuneau Allocator). Even under these conditions, no fix of the problem.

Then I tried again running the full DSP chain (without rebuffers) at 88.2kHz and the problem was confirmed there (just to check if the issue was related to the precise 96kHz rate).
Only running down to 48kHz (or down to 44.1 as before tested) I could avoid the problem (this cannot be a solution for me, I did it just for testing).

So, finally, I also tried to resample (at the beginning of the DSP chain) to 48kHz before MathAudio Room EQ and then resample to 96kHz before Thuneau Allocator (my last DSP component in the chain). Bad result, the problem popped-up as before.

In all the cases, the CPU usage remained below 50% or so. I also tried reducing the ASIO buffer of my audio driver (by default it is 2048 samples, I also tested at 512 samples, no change at all).

This is all I can report to you for the moment
Thanks again for your time and support, Andrea

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #9 –
Quote from: AndreaT on
CPU usage remained below 50% or so
Hm, how is CPU usage reported on a dual core? Could 50 mean it chokes on one of the cores? How does it work with virtual cores?

Also, if you have a file that is not too big (well you got 4 GB RAM): https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_ramdisk ensures that it doesn't have to go to the hard drive to get another chunk. May be worth enabling, testing (send one file to RAM disk and then play it) - and then uninstalling the component I guess; it should not help, but who knows.

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #10 –
Hello @Porcus, I am not a SW-developer, but I checked with Windows own resource tool and CPUID Performance Monitor 2.
Both report the same results:
- Both cores (I have only 2 phy cores) at avg 30% when playing FLAC without any problem
- Both cores at avg 40% when playing the .WV audio files (not playing well... having the micro-pauses)

Regarding the ramdisk, I don't use it... Anyway I never had problem playing SACD ISO even larger than 4GB (no way to load in ramdisk on my 32bit system).

Thanks for your support
Regards, Andrea

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #11 –
Your CPU usage is very high for a relatively simple task of playing audio. Have you tried increasing the output buffer length?

And another test: use Converter with identical DSP setup as you use during playback to convert one of the Wavpacks to WAV. Then try playing that WAV file or check it in audio editor for glitches. It's possible that your settings trigger a processing bug that causes the issue.

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #12 –
Hello @Case , I did the new test you suggested.
I converted the original WV into WAV and also into FLAC.

I tested first the FLAC and it played perfectly (96kHz, 6channels ASIO out, MathAudio Room EQ and Thuneau Allocator): quite stable CPU usage at 45%

I tested then the WAV and all played fine as for the FLAC. Also CPU usage was quite the same.

Finally I tested again the WV and the "micro-pauses" problem immediately appeared again. I then looked at the CPU usage graph with more attention and I saw that the CPU usage was not so steady as while playing FLAC and WAV: I noticed a swing between 38% and 47%.

About your consideration on the global CPU usage, I have to tell you that the MOTU ASIO driver is surely not the less CPU intensive, but quite heavy is Thuneau Allocator and also MathAudio Room EQ when running in "high resolution" mode.
However, even when plying the most demanding SACD.ISO, the overall CPU usage doesn't exceed the 70% and anyway I never had and audio issue so far.

That's all
Thanks again for your support and kind regards, Andrea

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #13 –
CPU usage reports you see are all averages and come with delay. If you have a short output buffer and your CPU is fully utilized before buffer can get new data you will have stutter. Please try to increase your output buffer size.

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #14 –
Hello @Case, my MOTU Audio ASIO driver is already (my default) set to its max size (2048 samples).
If you are referring to some other Foobar buffer, please, kindly give me details about.

Today I did other tests and I noted that this problem appears only when using MathAudio Room EQ in "high resolution" mode.
It is enough to set it to "normal resolution" and the problem goes away.
So, I would say that the problem is 99% within that component. I am going now to report my problem to the MathAudio discussion section.

Thanks a lot for your prompt and all times kind support
All the best, Andrea

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #15 –
File->Preferences->Playback->Output->Buffer length

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #16 –
Hello @Rollin , many thanks for your help!

PROBLEM FIXED! I increased that buffer length from 150ms to 1000ms and the problem of the micro-pauses disappeared.
So, this "Output buffer" is not really and output buffer, it looks more like an "internal DSP pipeline buffer"

Again, thank you so much and thanks to all the others that contributed to troubleshooting this strange issue.
Kind regards, Andrea

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #17 –
It is output buffer. That is the final buffer and it's used by the output component. That is the buffer where DAC/sound interface/sound card gets its bits from. It's pretty much the only buffer that matters except when streaming is involved.

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #18 –
The only thing you may want to know, but don't really need to know, is that for outputs like ASIO and WASAPI, there are two output buffers. One is the hardware buffer, which is incredibly small, and the output thread feeds this buffer as the output device requests. The other buffer is a software buffer, also part of the output, and the player feeds this buffer as it runs empty, and the hardware thread or callback pulls from it at a high priority.

This combined buffer system is pretty normal for outputs that require a small hardware buffer. All you need to know is that the user-configurable output buffer size should be at least 1000ms, the default, and may be set to higher sizes if that fails. The hardware buffer size is usually an advanced setting that doesn't need to be messed with, and sometimes has overrides for particular devices that need it.
 

Re: BUG: Now way to play WavPack !!! - Problem with FB 1.6.9 and 1.6.8

Reply #19 –
Hello @kode54 and @Case, thank you for your details and kind follow-up. Your info are helping me understanding better how Foobar works.
Kind regards, Andrea