HydrogenAudio

CD-R and Audio Hardware => Audio Hardware => Topic started by: dmarc34 on 2002-05-04 14:53:36

Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: dmarc34 on 2002-05-04 14:53:36
Hi there,

I'm looking for a good sound card... It sounds like another thead here  but it's for a different purpose: the gaming, 5+1, 3D and so on are not mandatory for me. All I need is a great sound in stereo mode for a decent price.

Any suggestions ?
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: RubberSoul on 2002-05-04 15:05:47
For my day to day computer I always used a consumer card rather than the pro cards in my other computers and have LONG been a supporter of the Santa Cruz for unmatched sound quality and stability. I picked up a Maya 7.1 Gold the other day and installed the drivers....a whopping 300K download and proceeded to do a LOT of listening tests and have found the Maya to sound QUITE a bit more natural and right sounding with zero stability issues under XP. Bear in mind most of my testing was done on recordings I did so I am intimately familiar with what is on them and exactly how they should sound. For me anyway there is a new champ and the difference is not subtle. I don't game so this is only based on music listening...WAV, APE and MPC mainly.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: Hanky on 2002-05-04 15:16:44
It depends on your demands, but the Terratec DMX 6fire 24/96 could be a candidate. Up to 96kHz / 24 bit, >100 dB S/N ratio, digital In/Out, front module for additional input/output options.
However it's in the 250 Euro price range 
There's also a light version with less in/out connections for around 140 Euro
Terratec International homepage (http://http://www.terratec.com)
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: spoon on 2002-05-04 16:28:26
A Sound Blaster Live (70 USD), a hoontech digital io bracket for SB Live (20 USD) www.hoontech.com (http://www.hoontech.com)  and a nice external ampliflier that can take either optical or coaxal digital in and you will have a system that is about as good as you can get...
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: RubberSoul on 2002-05-04 16:33:45
The LIVE and Audigy are COMPLETELY inappropraite for any music listening. They are abysmall.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: spoon on 2002-05-04 16:39:51
How so? any sound card that could output 24bit digital will be identical to another top of the range sound card outputting an **identical** digital signal costing $10,000.

Anyone who thinks a sound card inside a PC can output a good analogue signal is seriously missing the point. Go for a top of the range Sony external 24bit optical input amplifier and you are kicking some.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: sphoid on 2002-05-04 17:15:19
Quote
any sound card that could output 24bit digital will be identical to another top of the range sound card outputting an **identical** digital signal costing ,000


This is not entirely true. I did a bit of research on this myself when i was looking into getting a new soundcard and i actually started off ordering an Audigy. I quickly changed my mind after discovering that its problem lies in the SNR and questions regarding whether that card is a true 24 bit card or not. In regards to the price, you can get some very high end cards with s/pdif for very reasonable money.

Quote
Anyone who thinks a sound card inside a PC can output a good analogue signal is seriously missing the point


I think you might be jumping the gun a bit here. There are many soundcards that ouput phenomenal analog signals. The problems do not lie in the signal itself, problems only arise when there are powerful sources of noise around it. True, outputting via digital does help this, but you can take steps to eliminate noise. I picked up the Delta Audiophile which to my understanding has some of the best analogue outputs you can get for the price range. To eliminate noise, the card has no cd audio connector but this easily remedied simply by playing cds digitally. Whats also good about this card is that it also outputs s/pdif, plus its true 24 bit 96khz.


Quote
Go for a top of the range Sony external 24bit optical input amplifier and you are kicking some.


Now lets think about this just for one minute. How many cds do you own that are actually 24 bit? I personally dont own any so if you are doing this strictly for music i wouldnt even worry about that, however 24 bit is becoming mainstream now in consumer soundcards.

in conclusion, if you want to talk simple economics and value, if youve got the money to throw down the toilet, you could go get the highest end 24 bit card with s/pdif and a high end amp and some high end speakers but in my opinion that is quite unnecessary for the scenario portrayed. For a fraction of the price you can get a modest soundcard with an acceptable SNR and a clean analog output plus a set of desktop speakers that are THX rated and will probably sound 100 times better than an equivalent external system purchased with the same amount of money. Hell, forget all that and get an expensive pair of headphones and a modestly priced soundcard and im willing to bet youd be much happier in the end.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: spoon on 2002-05-04 17:39:14
Sage advice

24Bit external amplifiers are plenty and cheap these days due to DVD players.

You are right not much music is 24 bit these days (it will come), but I would rather throw a 16bit signal at a 24bit dac rather than a 16 bit dac.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: Trelane on 2002-05-04 17:59:39
Stereo-Link SL1200...

Native sampling rate support for 5-55 khz. It does not resample, which can cause aliasing if not done properly. The Live/Audigy series of cards do not resample properly (and they resample everything to 48 khz).

It also features a 20 bit DAC and it's an external device (USB) with an external power supply. The only gripe I've heard about the SL1200 is its lack of recording/input features and the tacky blue color. It's an excellent sounding device that's worth looking into.

You can read more about it on Stereo-Link's website at http://www.stereo-link.com (http://www.stereo-link.com).

Good luck
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: KikeG on 2002-05-05 22:05:34
Quote
How so? any sound card that could output 24bit digital will be identical to another top of the range sound card outputting an **identical** digital signal costing ,000.


Yes, but all Creative cards resample internally to 48 KHz before "playing" the sound, even if you use the digital outputs. The Live's do this quite badly. A top of the range soundcard won't resample or do anything to the signal.

Quote
Anyone who thinks a sound card inside a PC can output a good analogue signal is seriously missing the point. Go for a top of the range Sony external 24bit optical input amplifier and you are kicking some.


Not true. The fact that a DAC is external is not a reason for being better or worse on audio quality. One of the best sound cards, if not the best of all, is internal, the LynxTwo: measured dynamic range of 130 dB (see www.pcavtech.com (http://www.pcavtech.com)). I guess it's better than any consumer DAC any of us can afford.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: spoon on 2002-05-05 23:18:40
Creative only do that because the SPDIF standard is 48KHz.

>Not true. The fact that a DAC is external is not a reason for being better or worse on audio quality.

For my real day job I design and create scientific measurement instruments, these systems have seriously expensive DACs and ADCs. These systems connect to standard PCs, they are so sensitive they can detect someone walking near by in the room! Anyway because the PC is way so noisy, we even have to use opto-isolators to totally isolate the measurement system from the noise of communication grounds of the PCs. We wouldn't dream of putting the instrument inside of a PC - you have plenty of magnetic and electromagnetic fields not to mention rough ground signals.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: KikeG on 2002-05-06 00:17:38
Quote
Creative only do that because the SPDIF standard is 48KHz. 


Who says that? Any CD player with a digital output will put out a standard 44.1 KHz SPDIF data signal.

Quote
communication grounds of the PCs. We wouldn't dream of putting the instrument inside of a PC - you have plenty of magnetic and electromagnetic fields not to mention rough ground signals.


But a good design can overcome those problems. I get a measured SNR of more than 97 dB with my internal Audiophile 2496. Again, see measured specs of the LynxTwo at www.pcavtech.com (http://www.pcavtech.com).
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: markusk on 2002-05-06 09:36:08
I'd be very careful with Terratec DMX 6fire 24/96. I have this card and there are driver issues when using win2k. Don't know if it's the same thing with other Windows versions. The sound is good though, better than what my old Live! Platinum could produce.

Markus
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: PoisonDan on 2002-05-06 09:51:46
Quote
Originally posted by dmarc34
All I need is a great sound in stereo mode for a decent price.


Then I would get the Stereo-Link if I were you.

Trelane already mentioned the URL (http://www.stereo-link.com/ (http://www.stereo-link.com/)), and you could also check out this review:

http://cd-rw.org/articles/archive/stereolink.cfm (http://cd-rw.org/articles/archive/stereolink.cfm)
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: Sachankara on 2002-05-06 13:18:48
Quote
Originally posted by spoon
A Sound Blaster Live (70 USD), a hoontech digital io bracket for SB Live (20 USD) www.hoontech.com (http://www.hoontech.com)  and a nice external ampliflier that can take either optical or coaxal digital in and you will have a system that is about as good as you can get...
Suggesting Creative cards on this forum as hi-fi is like saying that Xing is really good... Dream on...

The best consumer cards you can find are VideoLogic SonicFury/Turtle Beach Santa Cruz and Hercules Game Theater XP...
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: macdaddy on 2002-05-06 14:02:54
Don't forget the maudio ap 24/96. I own one, and find it to be as good (and probably better) than any of the other soundcards listed in this thread...
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: spoon on 2002-05-06 14:29:29
Quote
Originally posted by Sachankara
Suggesting Creative cards on this forum as hi-fi is like saying that Xing is really good... Dream on...

The best consumer cards you can find are VideoLogic SonicFury/Turtle Beach Santa Cruz and Hercules Game Theater XP...


I would wager that in a blind listening test you wouldn't know the difference between any of these (SB Live included) playing an audio CD digitally out to the same amp.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: Gecko on 2002-05-06 14:53:15
Does anyone have any info about lag behaviour of the stereo-link or usb sound cards in general? This would be interesting for musicians / digital DJs.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: Trelane on 2002-05-06 15:14:19
Regarding lag:
I created a tool that plays silence constantly to eliminate the greatest delay (of about 500 ms), which occurs when the device goes into standby when no sound is being played. This seems to have eliminated all lag on my limited tests. I wasn't too concerned with getting it as low as possible, but the half second delay was getting quite annoying...

If anyone has an interest in this tool, I will release it. Let me know.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: dmarc34 on 2002-05-06 16:20:48
Many thanks for all your answers  !

One little question about the M-Audio : is it possible to plug phones (I own a Sennheiser HD 535) directly on the card, or do I need to use my stereo amplifier ?

And another one about the SL 1200  : it has 20 bits converters, but it is regarded as a 16 bit card ? the specs I found on the web are not so clear...

Best regards,

Marc
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: Trelane on 2002-05-06 19:38:10
The SL1200 would play back 20 bit material, but this is a limitation of Windows and not the device itself. At any rate, the 20 bit DAC will produce better results than a 16 bit DAC.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: macdaddy on 2002-05-07 01:41:31
Quote
One little question about the M-Audio : is it possible to plug phones (I own a Sennheiser HD 535) directly on the card, or do I need to use my stereo amplifier ?
no headphone jack on the card:

2 rca out jacks, 2 rca in jacks, spdif in coaxial jack, spdif out coaxial jack
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: Dibrom on 2002-05-08 22:17:11
OT:

Rubbersoul (Beatles/ffc/pchore/HAZ-MAT/randar/darkhorse/taz/etc/etc/etc.. or should I just call you Mr. Fox?):

It's been made exceedingly apparent that you are no longer welcome on this board.  Changing your nick and your ip and reregistering is not going to change anything.

Your account has been disabled.  Goodbye.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: JonPike on 2002-05-09 09:20:29
Quote
Originally posted by spoon
I would wager that in a blind listening test you wouldn't know the difference between any of these (SB Live included) playing an audio CD digitally out to the same amp.


Hehe sure!  Of course doing that removes the card's DAQ from the picture,  so there really shouldn't be any difference..  if that's what you want to do primarily, dosen't matter what card you're using.  You've moved things to the amp's DAQ...  Well we HOPE the amp DAQ is the better of the two!

Recording,  that's another story.

But,  for those on a budget..  I can say that my Audigy has about 15db lower noise floor (measured with Cool Edit) for assumibly that much more signal to noise ratio,  than the Live I replaced it with.  And,  you can get it for that quoted Live price,  cheaper for the OEM.  I believe the connector is the same, so the Hoontech bracket would work to give you optical S/PDIF?  You already get the coaxial digital right out the back.. 

It's not a great card... there are little annoyances, but it's quieter,  and for $60USD,  hard to beat that bang for the buck.

Well,  there goes my forum cred... 
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: KikeG on 2002-05-09 10:20:46
Quote
Hehe sure! Of course doing that removes the card's DAQ from the picture, so there really shouldn't be any difference.. if that's what you want to do primarily, dosen't matter what card you're using. You've moved things to the amp's DAQ... Well we HOPE the amp DAQ is the better of the two! 


Aghh... Again ;-) , the Live! cards resample quite badly all 44.1 KHz data sent at them, even if you use the digital outputs!!! No matter what external DAC you use, the data feeding it is altered by the Live! card.

Same happens with all AC'97 (synonym of gaming oriented) cards: Audigy, Santa Cruz, Hercules cards, Terratec XFire, but in this cases the resampling process is made in a quite better manner.

At http://www.pcabx.com/product/ct4830/index.htm (http://www.pcabx.com/product/ct4830/index.htm) you can do ABX tests of digital and analog outputs of a Live! card.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: fewtch on 2002-05-09 10:47:24
My understanding also is that things went downhill for Creative with the "Live!" cards.  I would guess my SB PCI128 is probably better than the Live! both in S/N ratio and resampling... the card  is essentially designed by Ensoniq which is (was) a sound company, and not a "marketing company" like Creative.

Actually this will be my last Creative Labs product.  They suck.  And BTW (no flames please) in the area of video cards I'm dropping ATI like a red-hot coal & going to Matrox for my next card (2-D speed/IQ is really all I care about).
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: David Nordin on 2002-05-09 15:22:07
I must add this:
Buy the Audiophile, or get the EWS 9624 or 6-pack.
they are all good.
Don't get any Creative card - they are bad for studio / audio purposes - PERIOD.
If you want to game - buy an EAX/A3D compatible soundcard - from many 6-pach has proven to be excellent.

Cheers,
David
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: Frank Klemm on 2002-05-09 15:31:44
Quote
Originally posted by fewtch

And BTW (no flames please) in the area of video cards I'm dropping ATI like a red-hot coal & going to Matrox for my next card (2-D speed/IQ is really all I care about).


It is a myth that Matrox produces fast 2D cards.
Even 2D is very time consumpting. Rendering
technical graphs an blitting them to the video
card is a pain for the G450/550 cards. A
ATI Radeon 8500LE takes 4% of the time
(CPU load 3% vs. 76%). Even a i815 based graphic
is much faster.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: JonPike on 2002-05-09 17:42:35
Quote
Originally posted by KikeG


Aghh... Again ;-) , the Live! cards resample quite badly all 44.1 KHz data sent at them, even if you use the digital outputs!!! No matter what external DAC you use, the data feeding it is altered by the Live! card.


Hmmm..  Ok..  I stand corrected.

So, does most S/PDIF accept 48Khz..  and if one runs the card at 48,  will you avoid resampling altogether?  I know you can't do that with everything..

And is the Audigy any better at this?

A while ago there was a hearing test thread on here (can't hunt the link now) and it was noticed by a few,  that aliasing was generated in the 10-20Khz range..  possibly resampling errors?  I also noticed that creating the wav at 48Khz rather than 41.1Khz,  caused it to dissapear. 

Whether it was due to lack of resampling, or just a larger difference between the recorded freqency and sampling frequency..  I'm not sure.

Jon
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: b-j on 2002-05-09 20:28:08
For a decent sound on a budget go to a comp. fair or auction site (www.ebay.com (http://www.ebay.com)) and get an Aureal Vortex I or II. I've tried newer consumer cards and they just can't compete with my old Vortex.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: fewtch on 2002-05-10 02:41:21
Quote
Originally posted by Frank Klemm


It is a myth that Matrox produces fast 2D cards.
Even 2D is very time consumpting. Rendering
technical graphs an blitting them to the video
card is a pain for the G450/550 cards. A
ATI Radeon 8500LE takes 4% of the time
(CPU load 3% vs. 76%). Even a i815 based graphic 
is much faster.

Do you have some benchmarks/data to back this up?  I would be curious, since I'm interested in 2-D speed equally as much as IQ... thanks.

P.S... sorry for carrying on an off=topic posting...
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: KikeG on 2002-05-10 09:00:50
Quote
Originally posted by JonPike


So, does most S/PDIF accept 48Khz..  and if one runs the card at 48,  will you avoid resampling altogether?  I know you can't do that with everything..

...generated in the 10-20Khz range..  possibly resampling errors?  I also noticed that creating the wav at 48Khz rather than 41.1Khz,  caused it to dissapear.   


If you feed the card with a native 48 KHz sampled signal, you avoid the resampling, so the quality is better. But most music is at 44.1 KHz format (CD music), so in order to achieve that you should resample the data to 48 KHz with a good resampling software (such as Naoki Shibata's SSRC) before playing it with the Live card.

The problem is that this is quite time-consuming, and not realtime. I guess that using SSRC source code, somebody could write a WinAmp plugin to do this in realtime, it should't be so difficult.

Quote
And is the Audigy any better at this?
Jon


According to what I've read, yes, quite better. But this is also true for cheaper cards like the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: MaTTeR on 2002-05-10 15:01:51
Quote
Originally posted by KikeG

But this is also true for cheaper cards like the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz.


I would certainly avoid Creative cards for any use. The biggest reason I've seen is the incompatability they have always displayed with sub-standard drivers.

I'll take a TB Santa Cruz, GFII or GFXP over an Audigy card any day. Not to mention I'd be saving quite a bit of money. Mentioning a Creative Sound Blaster product as a viable solution in the Hydrogen forums just seems a little strange in my mind:D
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: fewtch on 2002-05-10 19:03:50
Quote
Originally posted by MaTTeR


I would certainly avoid Creative cards for any use. The biggest reason I've seen is the incompatability they have always displayed with sub-standard drivers.

You want to see substandard drivers, take a look at the Win9x drivers for the Santa Cruz.  Sorry to say it, but they really suck.
Quote
I'll take a TB Santa Cruz, GFII or GFXP over an Audigy card any day. Not to mention I'd be saving quite a bit of money. Mentioning a Creative Sound Blaster product as a viable solution in the Hydrogen forums just seems a little strange in my mind:D

Viable solution to *what*?  Certainly a Live! or Audigy (or even PCI128) is fine for casual music or movie listening with sub-$100 PC speakers. 

For stereo system use, something better is probably called for... still, you wouldn't want an M-Audio Omni Studio 66 to play the occasional game of Quake or MS flight simulator, would you?

Cheers...
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: Tes on 2002-05-10 20:17:09
Quote
Originally posted by KikeG
If you feed the card with a native 48 KHz sampled signal, you avoid the resampling, so the quality is better. But most music is at 44.1 KHz format (CD music), so in order to achieve that you should resample the data to 48 KHz with a good resampling software (such as Naoki Shibata's SSRC) before playing it with the Live card.

The problem is that this is quite time-consuming, and not realtime. I guess that using SSRC source code, somebody could write a WinAmp plugin to do this in realtime, it should't be so difficult.


An SSRC Winamp plugin sounds like a cool idea. Is anyone willing to give this a try?

I would try to do it myself but by the time I finished I would probably already have upgraded to a better soundcard.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: MaTTeR on 2002-05-10 21:53:44
Quote
Originally posted by fewtch

You want to see substandard drivers, take a look at the Win9x drivers for the Santa Cruz.  Sorry to say it, but they really suck.
That very well could be but I wouldn't know since I've yet to see a Win9x system in a few years. I can vouch that the Win2k/XP M$ v4161 certified drivers are rock solid. In fact they are more solid than my GFII 1.50 drivers.

Quote
Viable solution to *what*?  Certainly a Live! or Audigy (or even PCI128) is fine for casual music or movie listening with sub-0 PC speakers. 
  I would beg to differ on this for the reasons I've already mentioned. It comes down to Creative having too many driver issues and compatability problems. Dont take my word for it though. A quick Google search or a search at www.2cpu.com (http://www.2cpu.com) will turn up endless threads, especially for the Audigy. So IMO I'd still rather a GFII, TBSC or possibly an early PCI128 for casual music listening.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: rjamorim on 2002-05-10 23:10:19
Quote
Originally posted by Tes
An SSRC Winamp plugin sounds like a cool idea. Is anyone willing to give this a try?

I would try to do it myself but by the time I finished I would probably already have upgraded to a better soundcard.


Naoki plans to implement a official library next version. (1.30?)

Then, it should be easier to make a Winamp plugin too.

Regards;

Roberto.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: fewtch on 2002-05-11 03:49:47
Quote
Originally posted by MaTTeR
That very well could be but I wouldn't know since I've yet to see a Win9x system in a few years. I can vouch that the Win2k/XP M$ v4161 certified drivers are rock solid. In fact they are more solid than my GFII 1.50 drivers.

That could be, but the still-large installed base of Win9x machines is well documented.  So why did Turtle Beach last release drivers in January of 2001... and unfortunately those old drivers don't get along with DirectX 8.x.  That effectively excludes gamers who keep Win9x for compatibility reasons, and others who would prefer not to beta-test XP for Microsoft (i.e. are still waiting).

I agree about an "older" PCI128 (I put 'older' in quotes because afaik, Creative is still making a "digital" version of the card with S/PDIF... or if not still making it, discontinued very recently).  Some people say the PCI128 is a crappy card, but I know for a fact the drivers are rock solid (and my past experience with the card has been surprisingly good). 

You may be right about the Live! card, I've never owned one... you're right, I've seen the rumors of compatibility issues, especially with VIA chipsets.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: tonderai on 2002-05-14 14:22:42
... just going back to the Stereo-Link 1200 ...

this seems like just what i'm looking for - to say my laptop's chip is noisy is a big understatement: i can't really use replaygain above K14

BUT, does anyone know if this is resold in the uk? i certainly can't find it. the c$70 shipping from stereo-link's site makes it a little expensive ($240 all in)

also, does anyone have any experience with any other external usb cards in this price range (~$200)? for example, the Extigy: which is made by creative, i know, but does have an impressive range of inputs and outputs which could prove useful (and claims to be 24bit, but is it really?). Or the Roland UA30, which was one of the first usb cards methinks.

cheers guys

ps interesting thread
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: Kim_C on 2002-05-27 20:46:19
Quote
Originally posted by fewtch

That could be, but the still-large installed base of Win9x machines is well documented.  So why did Turtle Beach last release drivers in January of 2001... and unfortunately those old drivers don't get along with DirectX 8.x.  That effectively excludes gamers who keep Win9x for compatibility reasons, and others who would prefer not to beta-test XP for Microsoft (i.e. are still waiting).


There are new beta drivers available for Windows 98 SE, if anybody's interested.

This is from their webpage (http://www.turtlebeach.com/site/kb_ftp/585ftp.asp):

                              | 05-20-02 BETA!!! WINDOWS 98 SE only! | WDM
                              | v.4164 BETA drivers | Not supported |
                              | Please report any issues (with the
                              | driver version) only to:
                              | [/a] | This email
                              | address is for reporting purposes only;
                              | all emails will be read but cannot be
                              | answered | As per all our BETA
                              | releases, this is NOT released
                              | software. If you feel uncomfortable
                              | working with BETA software, and the
                              | problems that occasionally happen while
                              | using it, please wait until we do a
                              | final release.  Also, our technical
                              | support staff will not be able to
                              | support this or any other BETA
                              | software. WARNING! Turtle Beach is not
                              | responsible for any damage that may
                              | occur from your use of this BETA
                              | software |

You can download drivers from here:
[url=ftp://ftp.voyetra.com/pub/tbs/santacru/sc_4164.zip][a href="ftp://ftp.voyetra.com/pub/tbs/santacru/sc_4164.zip" target="_blank"][a href="ftp://ftp.voyetra.com/pub/tbs/santacru/sc_4164.zip" target="_blank"][a href="ftp://ftp.voyetra.com/pub/tbs/santacru/sc_4164.zip" target="_blank"]ftp://ftp.voyetra.com/pub/tbs/santacru/sc_4164.zip[/url][/a][/a] (report@turtle-beach.com)

I just bought Videologic Sonic Fury/Turtle Beach Santa Cruz myself, but i haven't tested these drivers as i have only Windows 2K installed.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: fewtch on 2002-05-27 22:50:54
It may sound crazy, but those Win98 beta (WDM) drivers for the Santa Cruz could be due to a report I filed with Turtle Beach tech support. 

Originally when I had the card (before returning it to the store) a month or two ago, I hacked the WinME drivers and got them working on Win98SE, but with some problems (for one thing, terrible latency issues).  After which I contacted Turtle Beach tech support to let them know, and they wrote back asking how I did it.  It was really easy, but unfortunately the WDM on Win98SE runs in a sort of emulated NT kernel.  It would be interesting to see how well they overcome the latency & skipping issues (if in fact they have).

Anyway, it's too late... they lost me as a customer.  I'm more interested in the Audiophile 24/96 now, and will probably be getting one in August.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: macdaddy on 2002-05-27 23:25:49
What is the difference between vxd and wdm drivers? Is there an advantage to using one over the other? (win98se user)...

As far as the ap 24/96 goes, the newest wdm drivers only work for win 2000/xp for some reason, and I would like to know why...

Also, has anybody ever used the ap 24/96 in a linux system? Since that is the way I am heading, I would like to know if anybody has done this, hopefully with success...
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: macdaddy on 2002-05-27 23:43:35
more info on the ap 24/96 drivers (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131510) ...

So I guess the question is why is win98se not compatible with WDM drivers..?
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: MaTTeR on 2002-05-28 00:19:54
WDM is designed for Win2k and XP AFAIK.

The vxd drivers are for WinME and 98 and most likely not going to work in Windows2k or above. They are older technology for the most part.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: Trelane on 2002-05-28 00:23:48
WDM (Windows Driver Model) drivers can be used with Windows 98, ME, 2000, and XP. Will they work well in all those versions of Windows? Depends how well the manufacturers tests their drivers.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: fewtch on 2002-05-28 00:24:23
Quote
Originally posted by macdaddy
What is the difference between vxd and wdm drivers? Is there an advantage to using one over the other? (win98se user)...

In the case of the Santa Cruz, the advantages is that Turtle Beach are no longer updating the VxD drivers (since January of 2001).  This makes for compatibility issues with the latest versions of DirectX & other system files.  It also probably means bugs that will never get fixed.

In general though... VxD's work a lot better on Win98(SE) than WDM drivers.  On 98SE, WDM drivers actually have to be run under a kind of emulated Windows NT kernel... as you can guess, this slows things down considerably & causes latency issues.
Title: Good soundcard for music only
Post by: Annuka on 2002-05-28 19:02:15
I have performed some simple listening tests on the Live! card. It does not suck, but it is not sublime either:

- Very good listening room, no external noise and exceptional accoustics.
- A pair of Snell E.5 speakers ($1400)
- Sony VA8ES (analog) amplifer ($1000)
- Sony EP90ES 16bit DAC ($1000)
- Sony XA20ES cd player ($550)
- Soundblaster Live! Value Edition (has digital out on card - no support for extra digital module). Card purchased Q4 1999.

Live! and CD player are connected to the DAC. CD player using optical out and Live! using coax. This should not make a difference in theory, but will probably make a slight difference in real life.

Test samples:
Belinda Carliale: Big Scary Animal
Alice Cooper: Cleansed by Fire

The samples were ripped with EAC and the cd inserted into the cd player. WinAMP and cd player started simultaneously. I then compared the Live! with the CD player by listening and switching back and forth on the DAC.

Note: Operating system used was Windows XP with native Microsoft drivers for the Live! card. The developers at Creative should be shot for their poor drivers!

The Live! card does indeed resample to 48kHz. The display on the DAC reveals this and I don't like it. However, the sound from the Live! card sounds almost identical to the sound from the cd player. It might have a slightly lower volume, but it is also possible that I am getting old.

It would be very interesting to compare the analog out of a nice $300 "2496" sound card with the "1648" from the Live!/Sony DAC. If the purpose is to play ordinary 16bit music, I am convinced the Sony DAC would win. It is afterall a high-end component. Unfortunately I do not have access to such a card.

My recommendation: If you already have an excellent external DAC or digital amp, go for a cheap Live!. But stay away from Creative's drivers.