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Topic: Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00 (Read 6883 times) previous topic - next topic
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Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\never odd or even.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
INDEX 00 00:00:00
INDEX 01 02:10:43
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\Liars.wav" WAVE
TRACK 02 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\Horseshoes and Hand Grenades.wav" WAVE
TRACK 03 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\The Surrender.wav" WAVE
TRACK 04 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\Leave It On the Floor.wav" WAVE
TRACK 05 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\The Kick Ass Machine Has New Wheels.wav" WAVE
TRACK 06 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\Curses.wav" WAVE
TRACK 07 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\Why Try Harder.wav" WAVE
TRACK 08 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00

I'm using EAC, there don't seem to be any problems with the cue sheet, and the disc burns successfully. The problem is that I'm trying to hide a track before What is to be Track 1 on the CD. So track 1 on my cue sheet is kinda like track 00, starting at -2:10:43 and ending at 0:00:00 where the listener would normally hear the CD start playing if they didn't rewind to hear the hidden track. My question is, Am I doing something wrong? I've tersted the CD's on multiple players, and none of them will rewind into the negative from Track 1 (track2 on the cue sheet). Please help! Also, I'm relatively new, so please explain anything overly technical. I'm an audiophile, but this is my first venture into doing this sort of thing.

Thanks you!
Jon

Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

Reply #1 –
Quote from: neveroddoreven on
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\never odd or even.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
INDEX 00 00:00:00
INDEX 01 02:10:43
…
I'm trying to hide a track before What is to be Track 1 on the CD. So track 1 on my cue sheet is kinda like track 00, starting at -2:10:43 and ending at 0:00:00 where the listener would normally hear the CD start playing if they didn't rewind to hear the hidden track.…rewind into the negative from Track 1 (track2 on the cue sheet)
The cue sheet syntax quoted above would result in your first file being distributed to two regions of track 1: a hidden pregap from 0:00 to 2:10.42, and a regular track 1 consisting of the remainder of the audio from 2:10.43 onwards. Is that your desired result?

I ask because your wording that I have quoted suggests that you might be expecting the entirety of the TRACK 01 entry and its corresponding file to map to a hidden pregap of 2:10.43 seconds in duration, with everything under TRACK 02 actually becoming track 1. Forgive me if I am confused and have misunderstood, but can you blame me?

Quote
My question is, Am I doing something wrong? I've tersted the CD's on multiple players, and none of them will rewind into the negative from Track 1 (track2 on the cue sheet). Please help! Also, I'm relatively new, so please explain anything overly technical. I'm an audiophile, but this is my first venture into doing this sort of thing.
This might depend on your answer to the above, but in any case, some players simply cannot rewind into the pregap of track 1. As far as I know, this applies more to computer drives, but there might be issues with standalone units too.

Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

Reply #2 –
No you have that right. Track one should be hidden in it's entirety... Track 2 is where the CD would start if you were to place it in a CD player. So basically tracvk one becomes track "00" track 2 becomes track "1" and so on... again, when listening on a CD player.

"The cue sheet syntax quoted above would result in your first file being distributed to two regions of track 1: a hidden pregap from 0:00 to 2:10.42, and a regular track 1 consisting of the remainder of the audio from 2:10.43 onwards. Is that your desired result?"

Yes, that's the desired result. The hidden track is roughly two minutes long. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by distributed to two regions though. Maybe because I'm new at this. It's intended to start at -2:10:43 and end at zero. Track 2 (track one when actually listening to the CD) would then pick up at 0:00:00. Well technically there's a pre gap there as well, so it would start at 0:00:00
This short read pretty much explains what I'm trying to do (http://desolationvalley.com/wj/oddcd/index.shtml) under the "full hidden track" portion.
Thanks for replying! If you could further assist me, I'd appreciate it! I hope that clears things up.

Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

Reply #3 –
So you're missing data for track 01 index 01.  I'm surprised you were allowed to burn the CD.  Perhaps you are actually slightly over the time you've allotted for track 01 index 00.

In case you don't know, times in a CUE sheet are in mm:ss:ff where ff is the number of frames in 1/75 of a second (588 samples).  If a track does not end on a frame boundary, EAC will pad the end with silence when burning so that it does end on a frame boundary.

Maybe the PREGAP you've specified before track 2 is what's getting you out of the weeds.  EDIT: On second thought I seriously doubt this is the case since that adds a 2-second track 02 index 00, not track 01 index 01; though a POSTGAP might have made a difference.  Anyway this paragraph is speculation, feel free to ignore it.

A typical CUE sheet that includes HTOA that is stored in a separate file should look like this (I've also included a pregap line for you):
Code: [Select]
FILE "HTOA.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    INDEX 00 00:00:00
FILE "TRACK01.wav" WAVE
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "TRACK02.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    PREGAP 00:02:00
    INDEX 01 00:00:00

Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

Reply #4 –
Quote from: greynol on
So you're missing data for track 01 index 01.  I'm surprised you were allowed to burn the CD.  Perhaps you are actually slightly over the time you've allotted for track 01 index 00.  In case you don't know, times in a CUE sheet are in mm:ss:ff where ff is the number of frames in 1/75 of a second (588 samples).  If a track does not end on a frame boundary, EAC will pad the end with silence when burning so that it does end on a frame boundary.


thing the thing is, I don't want data in the index 01. then it wouldn't be hidden. I understand the timing thing. I was having burning issues at first when my stated track length exceeded the actual track length. Through trial and error i got it down to  -2:10:43. From my understanding, if I place any data in the index 01 file, the track wouldj play just like any other. I want all of track 1 on the cue sheet to be contained in the index 00 section, so that it will be hidden. I want index 01 of track (again on the cue sheet, this isn't how it would appear when playing the CD in a CD player), to be blank. To have a better understanding of what I'm trying to do, please check out " the url from my prior post.

Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

Reply #6 –
Quote from: greynol on
If you're trying to burn a disc without a track 1 then I think you're out of luck.


No, again, please read the link. It summarizes what I'm trying to do. It's much like "Songs in the key of X." The CD plays like normal when you place it in the CD player, except there is hidden track prior to track 1. To hear this hidden track, you have to rewind from track one, the numbers go into the negatives... so the hidden track starts at negative "whatever," in my case -2:10:43 and ends at zero. At that point the CD starts at track 1, where it would have started if you hadn't rewound to the hidden track. It seems as though, when doing this, your cue sheet does NOT necessarily reflect what a listener sees on their CD player. What they see as Track 1 is actually track 2. The actual track 1 (on the cue sheet) is hidden in the index 00 portion. That is, if I understand this correctly. While I've found plenty of articles on the idea behind this, I've found zero information on how to actually do this. I guess I'm asking for help from someone that understands what it is to hide a track in the index 00 portion, prior to the first track that will play when the CD is played back in a CD player.
My cue sheet seems to accurately reflect this. When playing it back within EAC, it does in fact start track 1 at -2:10:43. The hidden track (again, track 1 on the cue sheet) ends at 0:00:00. At that point, track 2 starts at 0:00:00. Of course, there's the 2 second pregap, so the music doesn't really start until two seconds later, but whatever. When I actually burn the disc, it acts as if that track 1 isn't even there. I would assume this is because the CD player is incapable of rewinding into an index 00 portion prior to track1 (on the burned disc, not the cue sheet), but I've tried it on multiple players without any luck. Maybe all my players all incapable of doing this, I just thought  someone with some experience in doing this might be able to tell me if I'm doing this correctly or not. Perhaps I should just look up who mastered the CD's that implement this technique, and see if they'd be so kind as to explain to me how to do this.

Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

Reply #8 –
Neither of those links provides any information that I don't already know and does not change what I have said.

You cannot have a disc without a track 1 index 01!

Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

Reply #9 –
Quote from: neveroddoreven on
When I actually burn the disc, it acts as if that track 1 isn't even there.
Well, that is what you specified in your cue sheet! That is, assuming that the equivalent file is not longer than 2:10.43, as you appear to have written—which would create a TRACK 01 INDEX 01 of 1 frame in duration, a brevity that probably explains its apparent absence.

Quote
It seems as though, when doing this, your cue sheet does NOT necessarily reflect what a listener sees on their CD player. What they see as Track 1 is actually track 2. The actual track 1 (on the cue sheet) is hidden in the index 00 portion.
No. What they see as track 1 is TRACK 01 INDEX 01. The ‘actual track 1’ encompasses this and its hidden INDEX 00. What they see as track 2 is TRACK 02. Who would have thought?

You might want to spare yourself further confusion by doing it this way:
File 1 = TRACK 01 INDEX 00 = hidden track
File 2 = TRACK 01 INDEX 01 = track 1
File 3 = TRACK 02 = track 2
(Note: referencing more than one file per track renders a cue sheet non-compliant, so some programs will not accept it. Most of those recommended here will, though.)

Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

Reply #10 –
Quote from: dv1989 on
That is, assuming that the equivalent file is not longer than 2:10.43

I am quite certain that the file in question is longer than 2:10:43, though perhaps shorter than 2:10:44 (mm:ss:ff, where one ff = 588 samples).

Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

Reply #11 –
Hello Jon,

Quote from: neveroddoreven on
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\never odd or even.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
INDEX 00 00:00:00
INDEX 01 02:10:43
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\Liars.wav" WAVE
TRACK 02 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\Horseshoes and Hand Grenades.wav" WAVE
TRACK 03 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\The Surrender.wav" WAVE
TRACK 04 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\Leave It On the Floor.wav" WAVE
TRACK 05 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00

I think you may have to combine your 'hidden track' and track 1 into one wave file for this to work. That would mean moving all the other tracks down one track! e.g.:

FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\never odd or even + Liars.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
INDEX 00 00:00:00
INDEX 01 mm:ss:ff REM Duration of 'hidden track' plus some silence between that and track 1
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\Horseshoes and Hand Grenades.wav" WAVE
TRACK 02 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\The Surrender.wav" WAVE
TRACK 03 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\Documents and Settings\again\Desktop\Leave It On the Floor.wav" WAVE
TRACK 04 AUDIO
PREGAP 00:02:00
INDEX 01 00:00:00

And so on.

Here is part of a Cue Sheet I wrote to achieve the same thing, the only differences are that my audio file is one continuous file for the whole CD, with appropriate gaps between tracks and timings to give negative countdown prior to each track. It worked fine!

REM Created by CueListTool
PERFORMER "Esther Ofarim"
TITLE "Esther Ofarim"
FILE "Esther Ofarim - Final - 080206 - 16b.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    FLAGS DCP REM No Copy Protection
    TITLE "Song Of The French Partisan"
    PERFORMER "Esther Ofarim"
    INDEX 00 00:00:00 REM Start of 'Hidden Track' (Cinderella RockaFella)
    INDEX 01 02:41:24 REM Start of Track 1
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    FLAGS DCP REM No Copy Protection
    TITLE "Suzanne"
    PERFORMER "Esther Ofarim"
    INDEX 00 06:18:34 REM Negative countdown to Track 2
    INDEX 01 06:21:34 REM Start of Track 2
  TRACK 03 AUDIO
    FLAGS DCP REM No Copy Protection
    TITLE "You're Always Looking For The Rainbow"
    PERFORMER "Esther Ofarim"
    INDEX 00 11:37:14 REM Negative countdown to Track 3
    INDEX 01 11:40:14 REM Start of Track 3
  TRACK 04 AUDIO
    FLAGS DCP REM No Copy Protection
    TITLE "El Condor Pasa"
    PERFORMER "Esther Ofarim"
    INDEX 00 15:36:37 REM Negative countdown to Track 4
    INDEX 01 15:39:37 REM Start of Track 4

In this case, the 'hidden track' is the part of the CD between Track 1 index 0 and Track 1 Index 1, which is the start of Track 1.

I hope that helps.

Regards,

Dave.

Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Amrad on
I think you may have to combine your 'hidden track' and track 1 into one wave file for this to work.

EAC doesn't care if HTOA and the rest of the first track are separate files.

As has been mentioned in the discussions over at digital-inn.de, the OP's problem could also be related to hardware.

Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

Reply #13 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Amrad on
I think you may have to combine your 'hidden track' and track 1 into one wave file for this to work.

EAC doesn't care if HTOA and the rest of the first track are separate files.

As has been mentioned in the discussions over at digital-inn.de, the OP's problem could also be related to hardware.

OK, fair enough. I must admit I haven't actually tried to do this using separate files, I just thought that might have been the reason for the OP's problem.

Regards,

Dave.

Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

Reply #14 –
As I understand it, the OP misunderstood how to reference the hidden track, thinking that their cuesheet’s TRACK 02 would actually appear as track 1; so either of the alternative suggestions (separate tracks or correctly referenced single track) might solve the issue.

Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

Reply #15 –
Quote from: neveroddoreven on
It's much like "Songs in the key of X." The CD plays like normal when you place it in the CD player, except there is hidden track prior to track 1.


You got that wrong. As has been already said, that "hidden track" (actually it's two songs in that specific album), is not "prior to track 1". It's part of track 1, specifically the part between the track's INDEX00 and INDEX01.

Help! Noob trying to hide stuff in index 00

Reply #16 –
I got it to work. Thank you everyone!

Edit: I should add, that after finally find a player capable of playing back these types of hidden tracks... my initial burn worked. It was that the track numbering was messed up... obviously, since the "track 1" files is 0:00:00 long, it just started on track two. Combining the tracks and adjusting the indexes accordingly worked.