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Topic: JusticeForAudio.org (Read 14301 times) previous topic - next topic
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JusticeForAudio.org

http://www.justiceforaudio.org/

Quote
Justice For Audio is an organization endeavoring to unite fans of music, musicians, and industry professionals in a movement to end the practice of excessive loudness and overcompression in the production of music. Our goal is to broaden the public’s awareness and knowledge of this issue, through any means at our disposal, ultimately leading to the music industry embracing audio production quality that does the music justice.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #1 –
Cool!!! There is a link on the JusticeForAudio website to a  Rolling Stone Article complaining that Metallica’s new CD is too loud.  That’s an awesome development!  Hopefully, CD producers and mastering engineers will become paranoid of a bad write-up in Rolling Stone, and things will get better!  The mastering engineer said he didn’t want to do it.  Maybe next time, he’ll tell the producer to “go somewhere else” if you want crappy-compressed sound.

I’m not a Metillica fan, so it doesn’t bother me that that particular CD sounds bad.  (I do have the new AC/DC CD on pre-order, and I’m hoping they took a different approach…)  If the Metallica CD gets remastered to satsify the unhappy fans, it will actually be less compressed.  That could start a new trend in the right direction… Remastered CDs that actually have improved sound! ...But, I’m not holding my breath.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #2 –
"...and Justice for Music" would have been a better choice for a name.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #3 –
"Justice for Audio" is an obvious pun on "... And Justice for All".

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #4 –
Yeah, and it's obvious enough. Also adding "...and " to it would have been a bit too obvious...

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #5 –
funnily enough, the vinyl edition of death magnetic is actually louder than the CD by a large amount, according to my VU meters.

the guitar hero mix sits at about -10 on them, but the LP is pegged (+3 and beyond) for most of the album.  it's astonishing they were able to get it that loud.  i suppose having 10 songs across 5 discs (1 track per side at 45rpm) there's plenty of room.  bit rough on my cartridge and stylus though.  my home turntable just gives me hiss and barely any music, but my slightly better work turntable can reproduce most of it without freaking out.  i would guess this album is a good 12dB louder than most of my LPs.

if anything it's a feat of engineering that the vinyl medium can be pushed that far.  i'm impressed but a little horrified too.

too bad the guitar hero mix isn't as nice.  it's only just worth it for the dynamics, but some of the guitarmonies don't quite sing like they do on the actual album.  i haven't tried putting them at the same level yet, mind.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #6 –
A bit of irony:

Recently, I read an interview with James Hetfield (in the Belgian magazine "Humo"), where he described ...And Justice For All as the biggest loudness war victim, as far as Metallica albums go.

Well, not literally, but he said something along the lines of:

"Justice is an amazing album, but tiring to listen to. We just made sure everything - guitars, vocals, drums - was as loud as possible. A little more dynamic range wouldn't have hurt the record. I would hope that by now we learned a few things."

I guess James' definition of dynamic range is different from mine...
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #7 –
I don't know what he's smoking, but …and Justice for All is the best sounding Metallica album, as far as I'm concerned. And it has a replaygain album value of -4.04 dB, for crying out loud.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #8 –
Quote from: skamp on
I don't know what he's smoking, but …and Justice for All is the best sounding Metallica album, as far as I'm concerned. And it has a replaygain album value of -4.04 dB, for crying out loud.


But can you not still make a very compressed sounding album very quiet?

DM sounds appalling through decent earphones tho, the Boris (Japanese band) albums I have are just as loud yet have the dynamic range as far as I can tell from listening.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #9 –
Sure, you can have a very compressed album at a low volume, but in …and Justice for All's case not only is its volume reasonably low, it does have a lot of dynamic range. It may not be obvious because so many parts don't vary much in volume, but the soundstage is wide, the guitars are crystal clear, and the drums actually sound like drums (deep and punchy) - all clues of wide dynamic range.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #10 –
Mmh, good idea, but the site seems a little Metallica-biased?

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #11 –
Quote from: skamp on
I don't know what he's smoking, but …and Justice for All is the best sounding Metallica album, as far as I'm concerned. And it has a replaygain album value of -4.04 dB, for crying out loud.
Whoa, what? My CD RGs to -7.01db.


Quote from: jido on
Mmh, good idea, but the site seems a little Metallica-biased?
Mostly because that's what prompted all of it, but they are making an effort to branch out to other albums.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #12 –
Quote from: jido on
Mmh, good idea, but the site seems a little Metallica-biased?

So what?

If this fan initiative is successful in case of Metallica, then it might become a turning point in the loudness war. Well, it all depends on the outcome. It wouldn't be enough when Metallica released a better mix alone, maybe as a download for people who can prove they've bought the CD... or whatever. The reaction of the band must create fundamental change in thinking in the industry. A listenable mix alone won't do it, except for the Metallica fans.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Axon on
Quote from: skamp on
I don't know what he's smoking, but …and Justice for All is the best sounding Metallica album, as far as I'm concerned. And it has a replaygain album value of -4.04 dB, for crying out loud.
Whoa, what? My CD RGs to -7.01db.

I have two copies of Master of Puppets.  One is compressed (-8.4 dB) and the other isn't (-4.29 dB).  It's been a while since I've compared the way they sound, but IIRC, the compressed version sounded much better to me; not because of the compression, but because of the EQ.  There's a DCC version of this album available as well.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #14 –
Wait, so, assuming RG album gains are fairly immutable, there may be five different masterings of AJFA floating around. That's just f*cking great.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #15 –
This has been a reason why I like shopping used CD stores:  Many times, I can find older (usually less compressed) versions of albums.  And when I still end up with a more recent remaster, at least I didn't pay as much for it.  And the money didn't go (directly) from me to the record company that mutilated the sound.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Axon on
Wait, so, assuming RG album gains are fairly immutable, there may be five different masterings of AJFA floating around. That's just f*cking great.

I'm not aware of five masterings for AJFA.  The three I've mentioned are for Master of Puppets.  I believe there are multiple masterings for Ride the Lightning as well.  I know there are different versions of Kill 'Em All, too, but I don't know anything about the differences except that there are copies with bonus tracks.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #17 –
Ack, ok, my mistake. Still, I had no idea that even multiple masterings existed of each album, besides the DCCs of course..

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #18 –
Boy, am I glad I stumbled upon the "good" pressing then… Oddly enough, the disc itself looks pretty recent: it has a Universal logo in the inner ring (I forget what it's called), and it reads "Made in Germany by EDC", "IFPI 0144" and "00422 836 062-2 02 * 51647042".

I guess if you want to continue this conversation and hunt down pressings, a new topic would be more appropriate.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #19 –
Quote
funnily enough, the vinyl edition of death magnetic is actually louder than the CD by a large amount, according to my VU meters.
  Actually, you can't directly compare an analog level to a digital level that way...  We don't know anything about the sensitivity or your cartridge, the gain of your preamp, the volume control settings (if any), or the calibration of the A/D converter.

Quote
i would guess this album is a good 12dB louder than most of my LPs.
  That IS a valid comparson!!!!  And, I do believe this is a very-loud LP!!!

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #20 –
Yeah, the vinyl clips.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Axon on
Yeah, the vinyl clips.

Yeesh. I can't imagine being Ted Jensen, getting in mixes that are already clipped and being pressured by the label to push out even louder (probably) masters. Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place. I frankly wouldn't even know where to begin to approach something like that. I'd probably just turn off my monitors and play it purely by the numbers, since the outcome is going to be piss regardless of whether you're able to monitor it or not.

Interestingly, though, Jensen didn't mention anything about trying to get his hands on more workable mixes in that e-mail. Deadlines can be tight on this sort of thing (strike that -- deadlines are always going to be tight), but I should hope that he at least tried to talk someone into doing, say, a 5dB down mix pass for him (which takes about twelve seconds plus bounce time in Pro Tools and half-a-day or so on an SSL 9000K). If the record was so poorly recorded that tracks were recorded clipped (an unimaginable scenario) and a clipped main buss was "unavoidable", then...yikes.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #22 –
Hope that works...

Why they don't put on the booklet a warning:
Death Magnetic can occur if you listen this CD from the begining to the end.

Metallica looses one sell 'cause I like of the music on the album but HATE how it sounds...

LOUDNESS WAR is a SHAME
Sorry for my bad english.

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Fandango on
"...and Justice for Music" would have been a better choice for a name.

Hehe, but "...And Justice For All" was one of Metallica's best mastered CDs. Sadly ...And Justice For All was the first I thing I thought after seeing the name of the site
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

JusticeForAudio.org

Reply #24 –
IMO Death Magnetic presents a unique market research opportunity to metallica and whatever their label is called (creeping death i think... haha).

if the guitar hero mix becomes the most popular version of their album on the filesharing networks, that will be a powerful message they can't ignore.  you know how sensitive to downloaders Lars is...  i'd say they are well aware of their album's status among downloaders, and might rethink their approach somewhat if the fan-made guitar hero mix proves to be the winner in downloads.

(an aside - perhaps the big torrent sites should publish top 40 stats to record companies...  why waste the data-mining opportunities?)

Quote
Actually, you can't directly compare an analog level to a digital level that way... We don't know anything about the sensitivity or your cartridge, the gain of your preamp, the volume control settings (if any), or the calibration of the A/D converter.


i know that... btw there's no A/D happening.  the cartridge seems to pump out a little more than line level on a CD, but average volume is about the same.  it is a difficult thing to measure, and i've been too lazy to plug my stuff into the protools suite here (i'm not a sound guy - i'm a telecine operator with a turntable and reference JBL's in his suite  )