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Topic: Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl. (Read 207080 times) previous topic - next topic
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Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #125 –
Quote from: Kees de Visser on
Quote from: Woodinville on
... just make a gaussian pulse centered at 10khz with a 1kHz sigma. This is a bandlimited signal, there is no aliasing to speak of...
Delay it by much less than 1 sample, compare the 16 bit outputs. They are different. Q.E.D.
Does it have to be a gaussian pulse ? Long time ago I've done the test with a 1kHz sine, upsampled 8x, added one sample to the file and downsampled back. The result was a perfect sine with an 1/8 sample delay and the difference with the 16 bit original was far above LSB level.



No, I'm just providing an example that can be calculated from first principles, so nobody can argue about any filter, any this, any that, any anything...

With upsampling, of course, somebody could (incorrectly, but when has that ever stopped it?) argue that, oh, there was something "special" about your upsampling filter. Yeah, I know, it's ridiculous. But then again, I've heard it. No, I'm not going back to r.a.he to find out when, but yeah, somebody said that.  And, yeah, it's impossible to convey the depths of hilarity that should ensue in a mere text response.
-----
J. D. (jj) Johnston

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #126 –
Quote from: Woodinville on
With upsampling, of course, somebody could (incorrectly, but when has that ever stopped it?) argue that, oh, there was something "special" about your upsampling filter. Yeah, I know, it's ridiculous.
Ah, but I solved that by using a 2-ch file (2xmono), do the 8x upsampling, sample-shift only the Right channel and downsample the stereo file to 44.1. Luckily the processed Left channel produced a perfect null when subtracted from the original, whereas the Right channel didn't.

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #127 –
Quote from: Kees de Visser on
Quote from: Woodinville on
With upsampling, of course, somebody could (incorrectly, but when has that ever stopped it?) argue that, oh, there was something "special" about your upsampling filter. Yeah, I know, it's ridiculous.
Ah, but I solved that by using a 2-ch file (2xmono), do the 8x upsampling, sample-shift only the Right channel and downsample the stereo file to 44.1. Luckily the processed Left channel produced a perfect null when subtracted from the original, whereas the Right channel didn't.



Doesn't matter, no matter the evidence, they always have an excuse. (sigh)

Mumble. Waste of time, they want to remain ignorant.
-----
J. D. (jj) Johnston

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #128 –
Quote from: Woodinville on
Doesn't matter, no matter the evidence, they always have an excuse. (sigh)

Mumble. Waste of time, they want to remain ignorant.

I completely concur

Paul

       

It is like a religion
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #130 –
Quote from: Kees de Visser on
Quote from: Woodinville on
Mumble. Waste of time, they want to remain ignorant.
Mumble . . . in a democracy ignorance has a vote too, so why should they bother. (sigh)

We are not talking about voting, are we. We are talking about facts.

Paul

     
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #131 –
We really are talking about a faith-based philosophy here. Some people get this immutable belief that vinyl is superior based on personal experience/revelation/whatever. In my experience, attempts to look more deeply at the situation generally result in "... but vinyl is always going to be better". And I can almost hear the words "... so why bother investigating this?" being silently added to that in their heads.

That shouldn't dissuade people from doing precisely that (investigating).

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #132 –
Quote from: Axon on
We really are talking about a faith-based philosophy here. Some people get this immutable belief that vinyl is superior based on personal experience/revelation/whatever. In my experience, attempts to look more deeply at the situation generally result in "... but vinyl is always going to be better". And I can almost hear the words "... so why bother investigating this?" being silently added to that in their heads.

That shouldn't dissuade people from doing precisely that (investigating).

Vinyl is very good for house siding.

Paul

     
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #134 –
Quote from: Axon on
We really are talking about a faith-based philosophy here. Some people get this immutable belief that vinyl is superior based on personal experience/revelation/whatever. In my experience, attempts to look more deeply at the situation generally result in "... but vinyl is always going to be better". And I can almost hear the words "... so why bother investigating this?" being silently added to that in their heads.

That shouldn't dissuade people from doing precisely that (investigating).

Yes, and some people have a faith-based philosophy that digital is superior. In my experience, attempts to look more deeply at the situation generally result in "... but digital is always going to be better". And I can almost hear the words "... so why bother investigating this?" being silently added to that in their heads.

Your final sentence is key here. People tend just take one side or the other. I have investigated and to my ears digital is sometimes superior. Vinyl is sometimes superior. Sometimes FM radio is superior to both. It's all in the care taken over recording, mastering and manufacturing in my opinion

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #135 –
Quote from: botface on
Yes, and some people have a faith-based philosophy that digital is superior. In my experience, attempts to look more deeply at the situation generally result in "... but digital is always going to be better". And I can almost hear the words "... so why bother investigating this?" being silently added to that in their heads.

Your final sentence is key here. People tend just take one side or the other. I have investigated and to my ears digital is sometimes superior. Vinyl is sometimes superior. Sometimes FM radio is superior to both. It's all in the care taken over recording, mastering and manufacturing in my opinion


You're placing a lot of weight on the word "superior". Digital formats have quantifiable audio reproduction capabilities. Given a sufficient number of bits, these capabilities these are verifiably (both objectively through measurements and subjectively through blind-testing (CD can reproduce the sound of vinyl, but not vice-versa)) superior to what analog formats such as vinyl records, cassette tapes, and FM radio are capable of reproducing. Sorry, your opinion holds no ground against what we can actually verify and is out-of-place in a "Scientific Discussion" forum.

Please re-read our Terms of Service, paying close attention to point 8.

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #136 –
Quote from: botface on
It's all in the care taken over recording, mastering and manufacturing in my opinion

No one is talking about all these. These have nothing to do with the maximum quality that can be squeezed out of the respective delivery formats.

Recording quality is another story.

Mastering quality is another story.

Quality of vinyl discs is another story. Polycarbonate discs... the only quality to deal with for pressed discs is that they don't shatter while spinning in the drives. Excluding the peculiarities of the Red Book format, pit/land changes are 1s, and pits and lands are 0s.
http://www.laesieworks.com/digicom/Storage_CD.html

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #137 –
Quote from: Canar on
Quote from: botface on
Yes, and some people have a faith-based philosophy that digital is superior. In my experience, attempts to look more deeply at the situation generally result in "... but digital is always going to be better". And I can almost hear the words "... so why bother investigating this?" being silently added to that in their heads.

Your final sentence is key here. People tend just take one side or the other. I have investigated and to my ears digital is sometimes superior. Vinyl is sometimes superior. Sometimes FM radio is superior to both. It's all in the care taken over recording, mastering and manufacturing in my opinion


You're placing a lot of weight on the word "superior". Digital formats have quantifiable audio reproduction capabilities. Given a sufficient number of bits, these capabilities these are verifiably (both objectively through measurements and subjectively through blind-testing (CD can reproduce the sound of vinyl, but not vice-versa)) superior to what analog formats such as vinyl records, cassette tapes, and FM radio are capable of reproducing. Sorry, your opinion holds no ground against what we can actually verify and is out-of-place in a "Scientific Discussion" forum.

Please re-read our Terms of Service, paying close attention to point 8.

You seem to be misunderstanding. I made no claims about analogue formats being superior per se, nor would I as digital clearly wins hands down on measurements. I was simply pointing out that while in my opinion the superiority of digital is not always audible there are some members of this forum who are guilty of the same prejudice they scorn analogue-lovers for and won't even entertain the notion.

The only real opinion I intended to express was that that well recorded/mastered analogue sounds better to me than mediocre digital. I am surprised that you disagree and will gladly post examples if you would like to check it for yourself.

Incidentally I resent the TOS 8 warning when other people expressing unsupported opinions go unwarned. I have done double blind testing. It was about 20 years ago when there was a lot of debate about the relative merits of digital vs analogue. I don't still have the results as I didn't foresee the need to keep them. However, I do remember the conclusion of my testing. It was that given a decent recording and the absence of clicks from vinyl and hiss from tape or FM I couldn't tell digital from analogue and I doubt that most HA members could either. Maybe the people taking part in the tests you refer to just have better ears than me.

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #138 –
Quote from: botface on
You seem to be misunderstanding. I made no claims about analogue formats being superior per se, nor would I as digital clearly wins hands down on measurements. I was simply pointing out that while in my opinion the superiority of digital is not always audible there are some members of this forum who are guilty of the same prejudice they scorn analogue-lovers for and won't even entertain the notion.

What I see is analogue fans (wrongly) extolling the superiority of vinyl over digital and digital fans / measurement fans / ceiling fans simply calling them out on that.

It isn't even about consensus. Raw data (like the mathematics in the 1st post) doesn't bother with consensus. It takes considerable purposeful will to deny that the data exists, or to reinterpret the data in a false way.

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #139 –
Methinks botface neglected to make the format/recording distinction. Certainly examples exist of vinyl pressings that are clearly superior to CD masters of the same material, and vice versa, and I can imagine a few songs sounding better when run through an Optimod.

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #140 –
Quote from: Axon on
Methinks botface neglected to make the format/recording distinction. Certainly examples exist of vinyl pressings that are clearly superior to CD masters of the same material, and vice versa, and I can imagine a few songs sounding better when run through an Optimod.

I certain that these examples recorded onto a CD from the vinyl will sound the same as the vinyl when played from said recorded CD.

Paul
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #141 –
Quote from: Paulhoff on
I certain that these examples recorded onto a CD from the vinyl will sound the same as the vinyl when played from said recorded CD.

Paul

You are right. Even the reverse may be true, and may well usually be true. I don't claim to know equipment since all I use is a simple DAC, laptop, and pretty cheap (and efficient) speakers for an audiophile..

Nevertheless, the recording from CD to vinyl will suffer an absolute drop in quality.

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #142 –
I'm reminded here of a point Richard Brice makes in "Music Engineering." He's under no delusion whatever about the fact that digital is more linear than analogue, but he found that certain characteristic distortions in the playback of vinyl could, fortuitously, be beneficial for the stereo image.

He also makes the distinction between quality from an engineering point of view, which means linearity, in which digital wins all along the line, and quality from the point of view of what people like, in which, for some people, some distortions are pleasing.

I don't have an opinion, because I can't hear the differences except for pop, sizzle and crack, and am just glad not to have to mess with LPs any more, but euphonic distortion can be, you know, euphonic.

Peace and love.

Edit: I got the name of the Brice book wrong. I first called it Sound Engineering. The real title, in contrast to my misremembering, is significant

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #143 –
Quote from: botface on
given a decent recording and the absence of clicks from vinyl and hiss from tape or FM I couldn't tell digital from analogue and I doubt that most HA members could either.
It depends on the content. It's a lot easier to have inaudible clicks and hiss with pop music than with classical.

Cheers,
David.

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #144 –
Quote from: sld on
Quote from: botface on

You seem to be misunderstanding. I made no claims about analogue formats being superior per se, nor would I as digital clearly wins hands down on measurements. I was simply pointing out that while in my opinion the superiority of digital is not always audible there are some members of this forum who are guilty of the same prejudice they scorn analogue-lovers for and won't even entertain the notion.

What I see is analogue fans (wrongly) extolling the superiority of vinyl over digital and digital fans / measurement fans / ceiling fans simply calling them out on that.

It isn't even about consensus. Raw data (like the mathematics in the 1st post) doesn't bother with consensus. It takes considerable purposeful will to deny that the data exists, or to reinterpret the data in a false way.

Since you have quoted me I assume you are taking issue with what I said rather than making a general statement. That being the case you seem to be deliberately misinterpreting me. I certainly wasn't "...extolling the superiority of vinyl over digital" nor am I seeking to "..deny that the data exists, or to reinterpret the data in a false way". So why say that I am?

The 1st post to which you refer goes on to say "..mastering on CDs is often terrible while the mastering on records is often made somewhat better" but you didn't take issue with that as far as I can see
 

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #145 –
Quote from: botface on
That being the case you seem to be deliberately misinterpreting me. I certainly wasn't "...extolling the superiority of vinyl over digital" nor am I seeking to "..deny that the data exists, or to reinterpret the data in a false way". So why say that I am?

My apologies if my post slanted that way. You certainly haven't been doing all that I mentioned, and I was recalling all the innumerable trolls that have previously graced HA.org (and websites, and other audio forums). Again, sorry. 

Quote
The 1st post to which you refer goes on to say "..mastering on CDs is often terrible while the mastering on records is often made somewhat better" but you didn't take issue with that as far as I can see

I was referring to the maths he was playing with. And he was right about the mastering trend. The mastering on many CDs is horrible, and digital clipping sounds really bad. I don't know about the mastering on vinyl, but even if the recording is pushed to clipping, I believe it doesn't degrade as sharply as it would on CD. Have people complained about shoddy mastering on vinyl in similar significant proportion to that on CDs?

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #146 –
Quote from: botface on
Your final sentence is key here. People tend just take one side or the other. I have investigated and to my ears digital is sometimes superior. Vinyl is sometimes superior. Sometimes FM radio is superior to both. It's all in the care taken over recording, mastering and manufacturing in my opinion



In that case, it's inaccurate to write '[digital|vinyl|FM] is sometimes superior'.  That implies that the format is being evaluated, and that's not what you you mean.  What you mean is, the product that *happened to be* delivered in whatever format, was superior to a different mastering of the same product delivered in a different format.

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #147 –
Quote from: MichaelW on
I'm reminded here of a point Richard Brice makes in "Sound Engineering." He's under no delusion whatever about the fact that digital is more linear than analogue, but he found that certain characteristic distortions in the playback of vinyl could, fortuitously, be beneficial for the stereo image.

He also makes the distinction between quality from an engineering point of view, which means linearity, in which digital wins all along the line, and quality from the point of view of what people like, in which, for some people, some distortions are pleasing.

I don't have an opinion, because I can't hear the differences except for pop, sizzle and crack, and am just glad not to have to mess with LPs any more, but euphonic distortion can be, you know, euphonic.

Peace and love.



In addition to acknowledging that what he's enjoying is euphonic distortion, Mr. Brice also allows that the original microphone and mixing setup affect whether LP playback of the recording is more 'euphonic' than CD.  These are not admissions one generally sees made by vinylphiles.

Quote from: sld on
Have people complained about shoddy mastering on vinyl in similar significant proportion to that on CDs?



Not so much  these days (I see sporadic complaints that some LPs are dubbed from digital masters, with smashed dynamic range intact)....but if you are old enough to have been around when there were no CDs, you'll remember how bad LP mastering could be.

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #148 –
@sld - apology accepted

@2Bdecided - depends on how you define classical music. Baroque for instance doesn't usually have a wide dynamic range - except maybe in a largo movement - and can easily hide hiss,  and a typical 19th century symphony will have cresendos loud enough to hide almost any imperfections

Quote
In that case, it's inaccurate to write '[digital|vinyl|FM] is sometimes superior'.  That implies that the format is being evaluated, and that's not what you you mean.  What you mean is, the product that *happened to be* delivered in whatever format, was superior to a different mastering of the same product delivered in a different format.

Not quite. I'm not necessarily comparing the same product in different formats but you're quite right that I'm saying it's not as straightforward as digital = good, analogue = bad/inferior

Vinyl vs Digital and 24 bit vs 16 bit from vinyl.

Reply #149 –
Quote from: botface on
Yes, and some people have a faith-based philosophy that digital is superior.


That doesn't take any faith at all. It is a well-known fact on many levels.

However, a judgement of superiority presumes a relevant critiera.  If sonic accuracy is the most important thing to you, then digital will always sound better because in all the history of analog formats, none of them achieved perfect sonic accuracy with real-world musical program material. Plain old vanilla 16/44 digital has *always* worked at that level, as long as it was a commercial format.

Quote
In my experience, attempts to look more deeply at the situation generally result in "... but digital is always going to be better".


"Always" is a big word. People rarely actually mean it when they use it.

"Better" is a meaningless word if there is no agreement about perforamnce standards. If your goal for a medium is recreation of the experience of playing a vinyl LP, then the LP medium is always better than anything else.

Quote
People tend just take one side or the other.


People generally take the digital side without thinking much about it. Those who do think about it still generally take the digital side.

The fact that some people take the vinyl side is a bit of a mystery, unless you realize that their definition of better is not dominated by sound quality concerns, but that issues like familiarity and sentimentality are more important to them.

Quote
I have investigated and to my ears digital is sometimes superior.


I suspect that you are not saying what you mean, or your criteria for judging better is varying.

As a means for storing music, digital is always better is sound quality is of the essence. However there's the medium, and there is the message. Just because a medium is superior does not mean that it will always provide you with your favorite message.  You seem to be confusing the two.

Quote
Vinyl is sometimes superior. Sometimes FM radio is superior to both. It's all in the care taken over recording, mastering and manufacturing in my opinion


You are obviously confusing the message with the medium.  Recording, and mastering relate to the message.  As far as manufacturing goes, it is very important for vinyl because vinyl is not a go, no-go medium like digital.  There are a jillion audible quality graduations that are inherent in the vinyl medium. No two LPs sound exactly and precisely the same.