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Topic: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics (Read 42949 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #150 –
But it can alter the soundwave. If a sector failed to read and the missing content was interpolated it will almost certainly be different from the original. Depending on how often this happens and what was replaced it can be audible.

But there's no need to speculate. You could extract the data and compare if they are different. Or if the difference was only audible on some specific player record that player's output. This would not only reveal if the difference can be audible but also show what has changed.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #151 –
Quote from: shakeshuck on
Jumping back to my pressed/burned CD "anecdote"...
Quote from: Wombat on
You can do dsd->44.1->dsd to have some easy start for your playbackchain in comparing the original dsd to. If there is nothing heard you are done with the dsd or PCM discussion.
Are you still interested in the main question of the thread? Did you try this?
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #152 –
Quote from: Wombat on
Quote from: shakeshuck on
Jumping back to my pressed/burned CD "anecdote"...
Quote from: Wombat on
You can do dsd->44.1->dsd to have some easy start for your playbackchain in comparing the original dsd to. If there is nothing heard you are done with the dsd or PCM discussion.
Are you still interested in the main question of the thread? Did you try this?

I've been fighting with a snap/crackle/pop problem with general file playback on Win 7 and USB, and have not yet quite bottomed the issue; I've gone as far as converting the Windows image from a raid setup to a single disk (which has helped, but I'm not there yet).
It's a bit distracting when trying to listen critically!

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #153 –
Quote from: shakeshuck on
Jumping back to my pressed/burned CD "anecdote", now that I know a (little) bit more about PCM, I am willing to accept that a digital data misread could not alter a soundwave (yay!).

Not so. In general misread digital data can be audible as clicks  or pops. If misread digital data is expected to be more frequent than a rare occurrence, sometimes circuits will be added to conceal the misread data without making a click or a pop. One such situation exists with standard CD player designs.

Quote
Any difference could also have been in my imagination (shock horror!).

Always possible, which is why we do scientific listening tests and technical tests to get us closer to the actual truth.

Quote
Out of curiosity, though, for those folk who know about such things, is there any way (perhaps a badly designed power supply?) that a laser head fighting to read a mistracked disc, or power fluctuations due to spin speed alteration for the same reason may have any effect on an outgoing analogue signal? (more so with 30-year old CD players?).

Yes, I'm clutching at straws in the hope that my youth wasn't quite as misguided as it looks like it might have been...  :-[

I'll give it to you straight. All things are possible if only a tiny amount, and while the probability of a given symptom can be guessed at or estimated from a distance, in reality one  has to be there to find the real truth.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #154 –
Quote from: tedsmith on
In ripping about 2000 CDs I only had a handful that got any non-correctly corrected errors on first read at high speed.  Error handling on music CDs isn't great, but it's pretty good.

I'm just going through a similar exercise myself, and I can only say that I either I'm particularly unlucky, or you got off lightly!
Some disks will only rip from a certain PC, while others will only rip from another but not the first. I have about four machines I'm swapping between to try to find one that will work for that disk. It's crazy.
All the disks look good to the eye, too.

I read somewhere that CDRs are only 'lifed' (data wise) to about 25 years (although I've had some lose data much quicker than that), but I wasn't expecting to have any hassle with stamped ones.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #155 –
Quote from: shakeshuck on
Quote from: tedsmith on
In ripping about 2000 CDs I only had a handful that got any non-correctly corrected errors on first read at high speed.  Error handling on music CDs isn't great, but it's pretty good.

I'm just going through a similar exercise myself, and I can only say that I either I'm particularly unlucky, or you got off lightly!
Some disks will only rip from a certain PC, while others will only rip from another but not the first. I have about four machines I'm swapping between to try to find one that will work for that disk. It's crazy.
All the disks look good to the eye, too.

I read somewhere that CDRs are only 'lifed' (data wise) to about 25 years (although I've had some lose data much quicker than that), but I wasn't expecting to have any hassle with stamped ones.


I ripped over a thousand , mostly over ten years ago, using EAC and a ~2003-vintage Plextor drive and a standard Gateway or Dell PC, and had no such problems...

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #156 –
Quote from: shakeshuck on
Some disks will only rip from a certain PC, while others will only rip from another but not the first. I have about four machines I'm swapping between to try to find one that will work for that disk. It's crazy.
All the disks look good to the eye, too.

I read somewhere that CDRs are only 'lifed' (data wise) to about 25 years (although I've had some lose data much quicker than that), but I wasn't expecting to have any hassle with stamped ones.
CDR deterioration under 10 years is not news. How long will they die depends on the quality of disc and storage condition.

For pressed CD, it is possible that some drives + discs combination may cause trouble, but in my experience, it is not caused by deterioration. That means a newly bought disc can have such problems as well.

You can refer to spoon's post.
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,111284.0.html

However, it seems that the thread is not related to PCM vs DSD anymore?

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #157 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Quote from: shakeshuck on
Quote from: tedsmith on
In ripping about 2000 CDs I only had a handful that got any non-correctly corrected errors on first read at high speed.  Error handling on music CDs isn't great, but it's pretty good.

I'm just going through a similar exercise myself, and I can only say that I either I'm particularly unlucky, or you got off lightly!
Some disks will only rip from a certain PC, while others will only rip from another but not the first. I have about four machines I'm swapping between to try to find one that will work for that disk. It's crazy.
All the disks look good to the eye, too.

I read somewhere that CDRs are only 'lifed' (data wise) to about 25 years (although I've had some lose data much quicker than that), but I wasn't expecting to have any hassle with stamped ones.


I ripped over a thousand , mostly over ten years ago, using EAC and a ~2003-vintage Plextor drive and a standard Gateway or Dell PC, and had no such problems...

I've ripped about 2,000 pressed CDs in the past year or so, and had similar results. I ripped them as received which left me with about 20 bad ones, washed those with mild soap in the sink, and ripped the rest. They mostly looked like they were used at home and had a few light scratches or less, as compared to the rough patina that they sometimes pick up when used extensively in cars.

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #158 –
Quote from: shakeshuck on

I've been fighting with a snap/crackle/pop problem with general file playback on Win 7 and USB, and have not yet quite bottomed the issue; I've gone as far as converting the Windows image from a raid setup to a single disk (which has helped, but I'm not there yet).

Changing the windows disk is very unlikely to help.  Usually problems like that are caused by bad audio drivers (no surprise) or bad chipset drivers.  Less often they can be caused by an unrelated device sharing the same bus.  I would start with drivers first though. 

Re: PCM, DSD - Trying to get my head round some basics

Reply #159 –
Quote from: saratoga on
Quote from: shakeshuck on

I've been fighting with a snap/crackle/pop problem with general file playback on Win 7 and USB, and have not yet quite bottomed the issue; I've gone as far as converting the Windows image from a raid setup to a single disk (which has helped, but I'm not there yet).

Changing the windows disk is very unlikely to help.  Usually problems like that are caused by bad audio drivers (no surprise) or bad chipset drivers.  Less often they can be caused by an unrelated device sharing the same bus.  I would start with drivers first though. 

After digging up posts from elsewhere, a suggestion was to try some software called LatencyMon. I ran this, and the main item flagged was a SCSI driver (which turned out to be a raid SATA chip), so I 'unraided' the OS.
The problem persists, but is better than it was.