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Topic: Columns UI (Read 4589831 times) previous topic - next topic
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Columns UI

Reply #3150 –
Quote
You just basically told me sorting and columns are unrelated actvities. Why does every other list view app have sorting by columns? Windows Explorer?

Because:
1. The amount of relevant metadata is much less (filename, filetype, filesize, date). So its easy to just display everything without running into space-problems.
2. Because the display-relevant metadata and sort-relevant metadata usually are equal when doing filemanagement tasks

Quote
As for baseless assumptions I see no other conclusion why you would not like having sorting by columns. And do you really not use a "album/content grouping" formatting script? Yes, baseless, I concur.

Did the idea ever cross your mind, that i maybe wasn't making those proposals from an egocentric point of view, but because my goal was to make columns ui better - not just for me, but overally for the users?

Quote
If you misuse a feature to do something unintended obviously it will not work optimally and cause undesired effects.

More baseless asumptions - see response to previous quote.

Quote
Lastly, I gave you an idea / something to think about in suggesting that your second proposal could be similar to foo_custom_sort. I really don't see how that caused such a backlash from yourself, it was only a helpful and constructive comment, as to how possibly *your* actual sorting needs could be filled. No, I don't consider removing column sorting part of your sorting needs.

One more time - see reply two quotes back. There is life outside of egoism.

Quote
It has nothing to do with any assumptions. Please try and understand what I said, that is, I don't believe a sort dropdown toolbar belongs in the Columns UI component itself. 3rd party panel, fine, that is what the panel API is there for! Do you really think I want Columns UI thread spammed with "I want abc" toolbar? Hint: Here is how you do it!

It wasn't an "option-request" - it was a proposal for a "paradigm-change" - *if* the column-based sorting approach would go, then it would need to be replaced by something - the dropdown-menu variant was one of the possibilities. But it could also be achieved in a different way (i.e. contextmenu).

Quote
Excuse me, but I don't understand how my post could have been interpreted as anything other than I am not interested in your suggestion. Apparently you don't like justification..? Truth hurts..?

You seem to still not understand the point: I want *honest* replies. If you plain simply dislike something for no reason, then state that - if you lack time, then state that - if you have other objective reasons, then state that - if you dont understand it, then just state that........ you did none of the above - you responded with wild asumptions and ignorance(it works for me, so it works for everyone). When i put time into trying to help someone else in making a component better for the users, then i at least expect a honest reply - it doesn't need to long, and it doesn't need to be sugar-coated - but it should be honest and with the degree of respect which the receiver deserves.

Quote
Known by whom? Not me certainly. Who do you really is going to know more about usability, person who designs and writes UI or person who uses it? Hint: Who considers it when designing the UI? Also note consider is the key word there.

Anyone can try to paint a picture. The fact that he tries to does not automatically make him talented. How many hacker-apps do exist with bad UI design? How would you rate the design of the columns UI preferences?

As for me:
I design UIs, use them, read relevant UI-/social-design information as you read code-documentation - and i did participate on this forum in many threads which had a focus on UI-design.......  that reminds me, psychology and human behaviour is also among my interests.


Quote
I have no social design? What does that mean..?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interaction_design

Quote
You say I am bad at designing a UI with high usability. But did it occur to you that rather I have a set of aims and objectives, and am targetting other things than usability? Do you really know I couldn't create an awesomely usable UI if I wanted to?

I dont know that, right - i however haven't seen your "hidden skills" in that regard yet and also didn't notice any indications which pointed towards such "hidden skills". Also, it is of course possible that you dont care much about usability ("targeting other things") - this would be a rather strange approach for someone who creates "tools" (tools should make our life easier and more enjoyable) - so i didn't expect such a "programming-philosophy" of you.

Quote
Its not about my strengths and weaknesses but Columns UI's strengths and weaknesses. I don't know why you decided to make it so personal

Regardless of if you do it intentionally or because of skills, i asumed that the creator of a software which is used by thousands of users, would have an interest in improving the software for the users. But that was just an asumption of me - which of course could have been wrong.

Quote
but anyway it takes more than enough time just reading through posts in this thread, let alone personally reply to all the ones that need replying! So please don't tell me I don't consider suggestions.

It is not quantity alone which matters.


Quote
In addition, please look at you respnose to a reason I pointed out as to how sorting by a column can be useful.

Exactly the same can be done with the other approach as well - plus more.

Quote
Finally, since you apparently also like bluntness (rudeness) I also think you are deluded for thinking I care about how you spend yout time.

To quote you: "Truth hurts?"

- Lyx

edit: i've scanned the text multiple-times for the error and even put it through various find-checks in a text-editor, but was unable to find any error.
I am arrogant and I can afford it because I deliver.

Columns UI

Reply #3151 –
For what it's worth, I agree with Lyx.

Columns UI

Reply #3152 –
I'm not even sure i know what either of them is talking about.
~

Columns UI

Reply #3153 –
@musicmusic, my post got somehow lost, so i'm reposting it ... i would really like this implemented.
Quote from: mazy on
musicmusic, could you add special button command which would toggle autohide status for its parent splitter.

something like 'pin' in some guis. it would be nice if it could use some temporary autohide status, i.e. override autohide status for nearest parent with autohide actually checked (ignoring parents with autohide not set).

Columns UI

Reply #3154 –
[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
Quote
2. Because the display-relevant metadata and sort-relevant metadata usually are equal when doing filemanagement tasks
[/quote]If you are not using a content/album grouping playlist display, then I don't see any obvious reason why the two sets of metadata would be vastly different. Which comes back to, "content/album grouping playlist display" is not an intended use! Forgive me if Im mistaken, but didn't you yourself call it a "hack"?

[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
Quote
As for baseless assumptions I see no other conclusion why you would not like having sorting by columns. And do you really not use a "album/content grouping" formatting script? Yes, baseless, I concur.

Did the idea ever cross your mind, that i maybe wasn't making those proposals from an egocentric point of view, but because my goal was to make columns ui better - not just for me, but overally for the users?[/quote]But you don't know whether your view is the concensus or not. I have to consider where you are coming from in your view and I see using album-grouped playlist display as part of it. Not baseless, but an educated guess.

[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
Quote
If you misuse a feature to do something unintended obviously it will not work optimally and cause undesired effects.

More baseless asumptions - see response to previous quote.
[/quote]Maybe I should have replaced "obviously" with "you should expect". Other than that, if you disagree with my statement I am telling you to take that view with Columns UI. Nothing to do with assumptions or your previous reply.

[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
Quote
Lastly, I gave you an idea / something to think about in suggesting that your second proposal could be similar to foo_custom_sort. I really don't see how that caused such a backlash from yourself, it was only a helpful and constructive comment, as to how possibly *your* actual sorting needs could be filled. No, I don't consider removing column sorting part of your sorting needs.

One more time - see reply two quotes back. There is life outside of egoism.[/quote]You seem to like insults, but unfortunately my ego won't let me degrade to your level.

[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
Quote
It has nothing to do with any assumptions. Please try and understand what I said, that is, I don't believe a sort dropdown toolbar belongs in the Columns UI component itself. 3rd party panel, fine, that is what the panel API is there for! Do you really think I want Columns UI thread spammed with "I want abc" toolbar? Hint: Here is how you do it!

It wasn't an "option-request" - it was a proposal for a "paradigm-change" - *if* the column-based sorting approach would go, then it would need to be replaced by something - the dropdown-menu variant was one of the possibilities. But it could also be achieved in a different way (i.e. contextmenu).[/quote]Point is its not going anywhere. You still seem to be caught up in that. Furtermore nowhere did I mention adding in any configuration options.



[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
Quote
Excuse me, but I don't understand how my post could have been interpreted as anything other than I am not interested in your suggestion. Apparently you don't like justification..? Truth hurts..?

You seem to still not understand the point: I want *honest* replies. If you plain simply dislike something for no reason, then state that - if you lack time, then state that - if you have other objective reasons, then state that - if you dont understand it, then just state that........ you did none of the above - you responded with wild asumptions and ignorance(it works for me, so it works for everyone). When i put time into trying to help someone else in making a component better for the users, then i at least expect a honest reply - it doesn't need to long, and it doesn't need to be sugar-coated - but it should be honest and with the degree of respect which the receiver deserves.[/quote]I was being honest, and I wrote exactly what I was thinking. It seems to me actually that honesty is exactly what you didn't like!

In addition, you continue to refer to your "it works for me, so it works for everyone" analogy but you never replied to my view on that.

[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
Quote
Known by whom? Not me certainly. Who do you really is going to know more about usability, person who designs and writes UI or person who uses it? Hint: Who considers it when designing the UI? Also note consider is the key word there.

Anyone can try to paint a picture. The fact that he tries to does not automatically make him talented.[/quote]Excuse me, but I meant who would you expect.

[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
How many hacker-apps do exist with bad UI design?[/quote]Plenty of apps. And as a UI developer, I notice them very very often. Note: I didn't say than other people, because that would be an assumption.

[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
How would you rate the design of the columns UI preferences?[/quote]I think its completely irrelevant. "The key word is consider."



[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
As for me:
I design UIs, use them, read relevant UI-/social-design information as you read code-documentation[/quote]Excuse me but just because you have read whatever information it doesn't make you good at designing a UI. And reading code-documentation is a good step for making a good UI so I don't really see what you are trying to say.

[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
- and i did participate on this forum in many threads which had a focus on UI-design.......[/quote]To quote you "its quality not quantity that matters".

[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
that reminds me, psychology and human behaviour is also among my interests.[/quote]That's nice for you. Is that why you join all your words with hyphens?


[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
Quote
I have no social design? What does that mean..?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interaction_design[/quote]I asked you. If you didn't have time to explain it, you should have just said.

[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
Quote
You say I am bad at designing a UI with high usability. But did it occur to you that rather I have a set of aims and objectives, and am targetting other things than usability? Do you really know I couldn't create an awesomely usable UI if I wanted to?

I dont know that, right - i however haven't seen your "hidden skills" in that regard yet and also didn't notice any indications which pointed towards such "hidden skills". Also, it is of course possible that you dont care much about usability ("targeting other things") - this would be a rather strange approach for someone who creates "tools" (tools should make our life easier and more enjoyable) - so i didn't expect such a "programming-philosophy" of you.[/quote]You miss the point. I have to balance various factors not concentrate on a single one.

[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
Quote
Its not about my strengths and weaknesses but Columns UI's strengths and weaknesses. I don't know why you decided to make it so personal

Regardless of if you do it intentionally or because of skills, i asumed that the creator of a software which is used by thousands of users, would have an interest in improving the software for the users. But that was just an asumption of me - which of course could have been wrong.[/quote]Now you are just trying to be pendantic to prove your point. And I did not say I was not interested in improving Columns UI.

In addition, I was point out that I have not rejected all of your feature requests.

I will also add that like above you do not represent the concensus. I have to make a judgement whether your suggestion would benefit you/the concensus and/or be a disadvantage to the concensus.


[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
Quote
but anyway it takes more than enough time just reading through posts in this thread, let alone personally reply to all the ones that need replying! So please don't tell me I don't consider suggestions.

It is not quantity alone which matters.[/quote]You can quote vague statements all you like, but quality and quantity are NOT independent.

[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
Quote
Finally, since you apparently also like bluntness (rudeness) I also think you are deluded for thinking I care about how you spend yout time.

To quote you: "Truth hurts?"[/quote]Yes it does, doesn't it?

- Lyx

[quote name='Lyx' post='394298' date='May 20 2006, 21:41']
edit: i've scanned the text multiple-times for the error and even put it through various find-checks in a text-editor, but was unable to find any error.
[/quote]Somehow I managed it. Yes, that's the reply of someone witha big ego for reference.
.

Columns UI

Reply #3155 –
Quote from: Lyx on
Quote
Lastly, I gave you an idea / something to think about in suggesting that your second proposal could be similar to foo_custom_sort. I really don't see how that caused such a backlash from yourself, it was only a helpful and constructive comment, as to how possibly *your* actual sorting needs could be filled. No, I don't consider removing column sorting part of your sorting needs.

One more time - see reply two quotes back. There is life outside of egoism.
I think a little egoism is quite healthy for a freeware developer. As long as nobody pays for your time, you alone get to decide how to use it.

Quote from: Lyx on
Quote
It has nothing to do with any assumptions. Please try and understand what I said, that is, I don't believe a sort dropdown toolbar belongs in the Columns UI component itself. 3rd party panel, fine, that is what the panel API is there for! Do you really think I want Columns UI thread spammed with "I want abc" toolbar? Hint: Here is how you do it!

It wasn't an "option-request" - it was a proposal for a "paradigm-change" - *if* the column-based sorting approach would go, then it would need to be replaced by something - the dropdown-menu variant was one of the possibilities. But it could also be achieved in a different way (i.e. contextmenu).
I still don't understand why the column based sorting should be removed. Is it just because unexperienced users may be unaware that you can achieve more refined results by sorting by multiple columns in sequence? Then would it not make more sense to educate the users instead of removing a basic tool because it seems inapproriate for some complex tasks to you? Please feel free to explain this if you like, because I really don't understand it.

By the way, column based sorting does the job for me, both for file organization and in the playlist. This is just my personal opinion though. If you choose to use another approach to sort your playlist, then by all means do so.


Now for some words speaking as a moderator (not targetted at anyone in particular): Please don't turn this into an e-penis contest; keep the discussion factual instead. If you need some time to let the mood cool off, then take it.
 

Columns UI

Reply #3156 –
Quote
I still don't understand why the column based sorting should be removed. Is it just because unexperienced users may be unaware that you can achieve more refined results by sorting by multiple columns in sequence? Then would it not make more sense to educate the users instead of removing a basic tool because it seems inapproriate for some complex tasks to you? Please feel free to explain this if you like, because I really don't understand it.

Of course if the problem would only be visibility, then it would be a better idea to think about how to increase visiblity - as you point out. The reason however isn't visibility - the note regarding invisibility of cross-column based sorting was meant in context to the quote to which i replied... to point out that musicmusics asumptions about user-behaviour are inconsistent with reality. The reason why i proposed a paradigm change was exactly what i said: that sorting and playlist are related to different usage-scenarios (or in simple words: desired sort-metadata and desired playlist-metadata is not neccessarily equal). If you want to, i'd be interested to discuss this on IRC or via PM with you.

I do however have zero interest to contribute further content to this thread or columns ui, because i consider the ignorance, arrogance and childish behaviour like...
Quote
Quote
that reminds me, psychology and human behaviour is also among my interests.

That's nice for you. Is that why you join all your words with hyphens?

...not just unacceptable but also plain simply below my discussion-level.

- Lyx
I am arrogant and I can afford it because I deliver.

Columns UI

Reply #3157 –
Quote from: Lyx on
The reason however isn't visibility - the note regarding invisibility of cross-column based sorting was meant in context to the quote to which i replied... to point out that musicmusics asumptions about user-behaviour are inconsistent with reality. The reason why i proposed a paradigm change was exactly what i said: that sorting and playlist are related to different usage-scenarios (or in simple words: desired sort-metadata and desired playlist-metadata is not neccessarily equal).
They are not necessarily different either. Speaking of assumptions, do you have any reliable data about the usage patterns of the complete user base of Columns UI? The crux is that I don't have enough hard data to dare to conclude whether the people who show off their configuration work on the forum constitute a minority or majority of the Columns UI users.



Quote from: Lyx on
I do however have zero interest to contribute further content to this thread or columns ui, because i consider the ignorance, arrogance and childish behaviour like...

<snip>

...not just unacceptable but also plain simply below my discussion-level.
Are you without fail? (No need to answer this one.) I'm quite sure that a little forgiveness would have been better at reducing tension than rejecting any possible compromise by displaying a "holier than thou" attitude.

Columns UI

Reply #3159 –
Quick comment from a user about the substance of the preceeding exchange. I like the columns UI design the way it is and have no need for yet another arcane toolbar or novel sorting interface or whatever. The learning curve for the new layout system is perhaps a bit steep at the moment, but I thought the sorting abilities were excellent already? Please don't remove column sorting anyway, that would be daft.

Columns UI

Reply #3160 –
Quote
Quote from: LTourist on
ok Thx i didn't see that, and even if I saw it, I think I didn't realize what it means  Thx, but know, I must find a way to do what I want... Does anyone have a idea???

Use 'local' variables.I.e. $put, $get. Then put it in a global if you like when your done processing/whatever.


Ok thanks you...Obviously, i made a mistake, and lost my ColumnsUI Configuration  , but i'll redo it soon
You do a great Job (I don't remember if I tell you yet)

Columns UI

Reply #3161 –
Quote from: musicmusic on
Quote from: Lyx on

Proposal for radically different playlist-sort approach in 0.1.4:
I think [...]
- Lyx

I think you entirely missed the point of searching by columns. I think instead you are probably misusing the ability to sort by columns with a custom script, or even misusing the columns ("album formattings" kind of comes under that).

As for it being useless: I use it all the time to do sorting on the fly without having to write scripts. For example, if I want to sort by artist and title I click on title column then artist column. That is why I haven't bothered porting foo_custom_sort, which sounds more like what you want.. In addition I am hardly going to add random toolbars built into foo_ui_columns.dll, even more so if they don't particularly belong there..

I really don't understand why your proposal is so radical, Lyx. Isn't it basically a request for foo_custom_sort, but with sort strings stored in fcs's? Everything you've described, save the dropdown listbox and the "save to fcs" function, is already available in fb2k.

Columns UI

Reply #3162 –
@Lyx. The columns sorting is the way it is. And it's correct, at least imo. I have to be honest, I didn't read it everything you guys said, it's too long. But if you want to sort by something other than the columns click Edit > Sort > Sort by...
It's as simple as that.  Sure it would be nice if you could create your own Sort presets in the Sort menu but I'm not sure it's up to musicmusic to do that.

@musicmusic. You do want you want with your plugin. It's awesome and we all know it. Keep up the good work.

Columns UI

Reply #3163 –
not yet linked to the current discussion but I have a little question about alternate stripes. (didn't know where  to put this question)

I have several codes doing the same thing, and I would know which one(s) is(are) the best in terms of time execution and "code quality" (or even if other codes exist)
Code: [Select]
$blend(color1,color2,$mod(%_playlist_number%,2),1)

probably the worst as blend is never used to blend colors but only display the two colors
Code: [Select]
$if($strcmp($mod(%tracknumber%,2),1),color1,color2)

Code: [Select]
$ifgreater($mod(%_playlist_number%,2),0,color1,color2)

Code: [Select]
$ifequal($mod(%tracknumber%,2),1,color1,color2)

Code: [Select]
$select($add($mod(%tracknumber%,2),1),color1,color2)


by the way, there is no word about $ifequal in the wiki at hydrogen audio (titleformat reference), is it intended? if it's not, could someone explain the exact syntax I only guessed how it works)? thanks

Columns UI

Reply #3164 –
Quote from: Bachi-Bouzouk on
Code: [Select]
$ifgreater($mod(%_playlist_number%,2),0,color1,color2)

Code: [Select]
$ifequal($mod(%tracknumber%,2),1,color1,color2)
I would use one of those for alternating between two colors, ...
Quote from: Bachi-Bouzouk on
Code: [Select]
$select($add($mod(%tracknumber%,2),1),color1,color2)
...or this one when extensibility to more than two colors is required.

Quote from: Bachi-Bouzouk on
by the way, there is no word about $ifequal in the wiki at hydrogen audio (titleformat reference), is it intended? if it's not, could someone explain the exact syntax I only guessed how it works)? thanks
I think that was an oversight. The function takes four arguments - $ifequal(a,b,c,d) - and does effectively the same as $if($equal(a,b,),c,d), which means it compares a and b as integers, and evaluates and returns c if they or equal or d if they are not.

Columns UI

Reply #3165 –
thanks for the answer and for having writing something about the $ifequal function in the wiki

I've got a new question about the $blend function, whichi is not behaving as explained in the wiki as far as I have seen:
http://eolindel.free.fr/images/blend.gif

it doesn't perform a $mod function obviously, as it actually works, I would describe it as:
Returns a color that is a blend between color1 and color2. If part is smaller than or equal to zero, color1 is returned. If part is equal to total, color2 is returned. Otherwise a blended color is returned that is part parts color1 and total-part parts color2. The blending is performed in the RGB color space.
If part is greater than total, it performs $sub($mod(part,total),total) all of that $mod(part,$mul(2,total)) well, it's quite simple but becomes hard to describe (I can't edit the wiki myself, it would be too hard to explain it exactly for me)..

(anyway, this behavior is very nice!! please keep it)

Columns UI

Reply #3166 –
Quote from: Lyx on
Quote from: upNorth on
In the spirit of HA that kindly hosts this forum, and in the spirit of TOS8, statements like this seems out of place:

"the real world in practice"
"a user who is known to think about usability alot"
"for the majority of users"
Sorry, but what kind of artificial relation are you trying to construct here? Do you want me to start a poll? If you want that i will do it - and the stats will agree with me.

By the way - neither you nor musicmusic responded to a single argument by me - i am making founded arguments which have substance but the responses i get do not reflect the same quality - and you are trying to tell me about "the spirit of HA"?

- Lyx
Your use of unsupported claims has already been addressed by musicmusic and foosion, and that's the problem I was addressing too. Maybe I could have said it straight out, without mixing in what I perceive as “the spirit of HA”, but that’s to late now. To clarify, the spirit of HA, to me, is to refrain from using unsupported claims, to keep the discussion on a civilized level and not get personal and rude.

This is something that I feel can be commented without addressing the actual point of your "founded" arguments regarding this "radically" different approach. To be honest, I don't care that much about sorting by columns, as I've disabled column headers altogether.

Regarding backing up your claims, I’m not so sure you’ll be able to conduct a useful vote. At least not around here, as "the majority of users" or people representing "the real world" for that matter, might not be active forum members.

I hope this made it a bit clearer, as I have no interest in discussing it any further.

Columns UI

Reply #3167 –
Does anyone know why I'm unable to load albumlist into the panel?
I'm stuck with foo_explorer which I personally dont like

Also, my display is:

Horizontal
|-Vertical
| |-explorer tree
| |-albumart
|--Column playlist

How can I put spectrum under the column playlist?

Columns UI

Reply #3169 –
Quote from: finalcut on
Does anyone know why I'm unable to load albumlist into the panel?
I'm stuck with foo_explorer which I personally dont like

Also, my display is:

Horizontal
|-Vertical
| |-explorer tree
| |-albumart
|--Column playlist

How can I put spectrum under the column playlist?

I'm not sure if I understand this question, but this might help


Results in:

Columns UI

Reply #3170 –
G'day,

cheers Musicmusic for an awesome plugin.

im just wondering, in the display each line is the color of the background color, and then the next line is lighter in color, can you control this function ?

cheers

loki

Columns UI

Reply #3171 –
If you're talking about what i think you are, that question was addressed by foosion like five posts above.
~

Columns UI

Reply #3172 –
Quote from: lav-chan on
If you're talking about what i think you are, that question was addressed by foosion like five posts above.


But what if I wanted one line one color, but then I wanted a different color on the other line?!

Columns UI

Reply #3173 –
I'm not sure what you mean.

You can set colours semi-arbitrarily based on any value you can get from TAGZ. If you want every item that's track 7 to be red, you can do that, or if you want every sixth item on the list to be green, you can do that, et cetera.

If that doesn't answer your question you're going to have to explain to me exactly what you're looking for.
~

Columns UI

Reply #3174 –
what would be really nice, is if each album was a different color.

cheers
lach