HydrogenAudio

CD-R and Audio Hardware => Vinyl => Topic started by: sshd on 2009-05-15 14:47:27

Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: sshd on 2009-05-15 14:47:27
I do not own a turntable and have never heard the "great vinyl sound" coming from a good turntable handled correctly. I am however sligltly interested in purchasing one, as there are some interesting albums out there unavailable on CD.

Recently I found a small clip on the net: A lossless needledrop of Santana's debut album on the MFSL label. Since I own the CD on same label I had something to compare with: I was very disappointed with the needle drop. There were no pops or clicks, but the sound was dead.

Can anyone provide some sample clips of very good needle drops?

Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2009-05-15 16:02:42
See this thread for recent discussion on this topic...

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....mp;#entry633881 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=71831&st=0&p=633881&hl=sounds&#entry633881)


There's a link to a needle drop here...

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=632247 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=71245&view=findpost&p=632247)

...I can't remember the details, but mere mortals couldn't afford that turntable.


You can afford this one though...

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....mp;#entry633478 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=65947&st=50&p=633478&hl=sounds&#entry633478)



Cheers,
David.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: bryant on 2009-05-15 17:39:19
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=67018 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=67018)
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: DVDdoug on 2009-05-15 17:54:52
Quote
I do not own a turntable and have never heard the "great vinyl sound" coming from a good turntable handled correctly.
  Well...  I do own a turntable, and I've never heard that "great vinyl sound" either!         I find the "snap", "crackle", and "pop" distracting and annoying.    The preamp noise bothered me a little, but not as much as the "vinyl defects"....  All of my records seem to have "developed" defects. 

And, back in the "vinyl days", most records were not produced with high-fidelity in mind.  It was a rare treat to find a record with great audio quality.  Even with most of the ticks & pops removed, most of my vinyl transfers don't sound like "CD quality" to me.  (If the CD is available, I'll buy it.)

My turntable is medium quality (Technics), with a high-end Shure cartridge. (The cartridge was probably Shure's top-of-the-line when I bought it.)    I only use it for vinyl-to-digital transfers...  I haven't "played" a record in many years. 

If I had to replace the set-up, I'd probably get something similar.    I'd get an inexpensive turntable (but not bottom-of-the-line cheap) and a medium or good (but not "audiophile") cartridge.  I'm no longer in search of the best (analog) sound I can afford...  My theory is, "If you want perfection, go digital!"
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2009-05-15 19:51:02
I do not own a turntable and have never heard the "great vinyl sound" coming from a good turntable handled correctly.


I have owned a number of turntables, and was a long-time audiophile back in the days when vinyl was pretty much all we had. I don't know what that "great vinyl sound" is, other than hype. And while we're talking about hype, "perfect sound, forever" (CD when it first came out) was hype, too.

I've had any number of vinylphiles demonstrate their "great vinyl sound" to me. Still, no cigar!

Back in the day, those of us who were scientific about getting the most out of vinyl were also intimately familiar with the inherent limiations of vinyl. I mean besides the obvious tics and snaps, there are very basic problems that are varying degrees of insoluable. And, that's just the ones that are audible!

For me the biggie is the inherent speed accuracy of the digital formats. LP pianos often sound wattery to me.

Quote
I am however sligltly interested in purchasing one, as there are some interesting albums out there unavailable on CD.


Been there done that, too. I currently have a Rega turntable with Shure and Grado cartridges for transcribing LPs. Doesn't get a lot of use. Still wish I had my last system from the days of - a TD125 with SME arm and V15 cartridge.

Quote
Recently I found a small clip on the net: A lossless needledrop of Santana's debut album on the MFSL label. Since I own the CD on same label I had something to compare with: I was very disappointed with the needle drop. There were no pops or clicks, but the sound was dead.


I've done a number of ABXs of time, level and spectrally-matched needle drops of LPs and CDs that seem to be very similarly mastered. I can still nail 'em based on all those other things than tics and pops that are wrong with the LP format.

Quote
Can anyone provide some sample clips of very good needle drops?


Others have. Some pretty good transcriptions have already been linked.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Glenn Gundlach on 2009-05-15 21:03:12
I do not own a turntable and have never heard the "great vinyl sound" coming from a good turntable handled correctly.


I have owned a number of turntables, and was a long-time audiophile back in the days when vinyl was pretty much all we had. I don't know what that "great vinyl sound" is, other than hype. And while we're talking about hype, "perfect sound, forever" (CD when it first came out) was hype, too.

I've had any number of vinylphiles demonstrate their "great vinyl sound" to me. Still, no cigar!

Back in the day, those of us who were scientific about getting the most out of vinyl were also intimately familiar with the inherent limiations of vinyl. I mean besides the obvious tics and snaps, there are very basic problems that are varying degrees of insoluable. And, that's just the ones that are audible!

For me the biggie is the inherent speed accuracy of the digital formats. LP pianos often sound wattery to me.

Quote
I am however sligltly interested in purchasing one, as there are some interesting albums out there unavailable on CD.


Been there done that, too. I currently have a Rega turntable with Shure and Grado cartridges for transcribing LPs. Doesn't get a lot of use. Still wish I had my last system from the days of - a TD125 with SME arm and V15 cartridge.

Quote
Recently I found a small clip on the net: A lossless needledrop of Santana's debut album on the MFSL label. Since I own the CD on same label I had something to compare with: I was very disappointed with the needle drop. There were no pops or clicks, but the sound was dead.


I've done a number of ABXs of time, level and spectrally-matched needle drops of LPs and CDs that seem to be very similarly mastered. I can still nail 'em based on all those other things than tics and pops that are wrong with the LP format.

Quote
Can anyone provide some sample clips of very good needle drops?


Others have. Some pretty good transcriptions have already been linked.


Not to be too big of a jerk but how can one post a clip of that 'analog sound' when your clip is digital (and maybe even compressed) ?? BTW VERY respectable disc playing gear. Mine was a Dual 721 with a Shure V15 type V.

Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: krabapple on 2009-05-15 21:07:24
First, all digital ends up as 'analog sound' when it comes out of the DAC and ultimately your loudspeakers/earbuds/headphones

Second, your objection presumes that a good digitizing of an LP somehow changes the sound.  Why would you think that?

Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2009-05-15 21:45:22
Not to be too big of a jerk but how can one post a clip of that 'analog sound' when your clip is digital (and maybe even compressed) ?? BTW VERY respectable disc playing gear. Mine was a Dual 721 with a Shure V15 type V.


When we say that digital can be a lot more accurate than legacy analog media, we aren't kidding!

By most accounts, a well-done needle drop is a sonically accurate representation of the playback of the LP.

If you take a good digital recorder and compare a recording it makes, to the signal that was applied to it to make that recording, nobody can reliably detect an audible difference. This experiment has been done many times by many people, going back into the late 1970s. It has been done many times with high quality live recordings.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: boondocks on 2009-05-15 22:09:08
As someone that grew up with vinyl, who had 3 copies of "favorite albums", one to play anytime, one to record and shelve, and one for backup, I can tell you I see no advantage, IMO, Only, for vinyl.
SQ is entirely dependent upon YOUR hearing.
My albums were played on a Thorens TD125, with a Shibata stylus for my CD4 quad stuff. (yeah, I'm old)

I guess the bottom line is, try vinyl. If it's good enough for you, well, that's the end of it.....
and I would not fault you one bit.

If it's not, then join another convert to digital.

Besides, keeping vinyl in good shape forever, IMO again, is impossible, no matter what the guru mags say with
there snake oil remedies and expensive cleaning machines. Been there, done that. Vinyl wears out, but less so
if the turntable is properly set up and kept that way.

My .02
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Axon on 2009-05-15 22:11:41
Many people get that "great vinyl sound" out of extremely inexpensive systems - in fact, they get it from systems that other people abhor for their poor sound quality.

I posit that "great vinyl sound" really doesn't have that much to do with the actual audio involved, but is more a reflection of the emotions of the listener, and the tactile response of the medium. Those are very real factors, and it's not particularly useful to ignore them, insofar as they reflect real aspects of the enjoyment of music. But you shouldn't confuse them with more substantive aspects of sound quality, and you shouldn't necessarily buy into vinyl always expecting to get that level of enjoyment. It's a largely subjective phenomenon.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: C.R.Helmrich on 2009-05-15 22:23:15
First, all digital ends up as 'analog sound' when it comes out of the DAC and ultimately your loudspeakers/earbuds/headphones

Second, your objection presumes that a good digitizing of an LP somehow changes the sound.  Why would you think that?


I've recorded a song from an 80's LP on my PC in 24bit/96kHz once and noticed that the bandwidth extended to around 30 kHz (true, the roll-off started at 15 kHz or so, but still, it reached till 30). So to be fair, one should record at 16bit/96kHz to get a "good digitizing of an LP", I think. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all above links offer only 16bit/44kHz samples. One FLACs was even processed with LossyWav!

Chris
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2009-05-15 22:36:00
I've recorded a song from an 80's LP on my PC in 24bit/96kHz once and noticed that the bandwidth extended to around 30 kHz (true, the roll-off started at 15 kHz or so, but still, it reached till 30)


There's a very fair question to ask about LP tanscriptions whose spectral analysis shows  content > 20 KHz:

Is it music or is it distortion?

The LP format does have a lot of inherent nonlinear distoriton at high frequencies due to geometric mismatch between the path of the sharp, chisel-shaped cutter, and the round or elliptical stylus.

Also, there is considerable dynamic deformation of the groove itself. which mostly springs back shortly after playing. Point being, the stylus deforms the groove in a nonlinear way while its being played.

And of course there's the other issue about which so much relevant evidence has been collected that there is hardly a controversy over it any more. Can we hear the removal of audio > 22 Khz? The answer is generally no, not at all.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: C.R.Helmrich on 2009-05-15 23:02:22
Is it music or is it distortion?

The LP format does have a lot of inherent nonlinear distoriton at high frequencies due to geometric mismatch between the path of the sharp, chisel-shaped cutter, and the round or elliptical stylus.

Also, there is considerable dynamic deformation of the groove itself. which mostly springs back shortly after playing. Point being, the stylus deforms the groove in a nonlinear way while its being played.


Good question. Maybe this distortion has a similar effect like the "added warmth" of a tube amp? Maybe it's the reason why some people prefer the "smooth sound" of an LP? (To me, the mentioned 24/96 recording also sounded sort of "smooth and warm"). Surely such distortion must also be present in the audible band, I guess?

Quote
And of course there's the other issue about which so much relevant evidence has been collected that there is hardly a controversy over it any more. Can we hear the removal of audio > 22 Khz? The answer is generally no, not at all.


I read a scientific article a few years ago demonstrating how in blind tests, subjects were able to hear a 24-kHz tone and that for all of them, the threshold of hearing did not increase between 20 and 24 kHz but actually stayed on a rather constant level (at 80 dB SPL, true, but still...). 26-kHz tones, however, were inaudible to all, IIRC. I'll try to dig up that paper again.

Edit: Here is the paper. (http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/27/1/12/_pdf) Did not quite remember it correctly, but see for yourself.

Chris
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2009-05-15 23:23:14
I read a scientific article a few years ago demonstrating how in blind tests, subjects were able to hear a 24-kHz tone and that for all of them, the threshold of hearing did not increase between 20 and 24 kHz but actually stayed on a rather constant level (at 80 dB SPL, true, but still...). 26-kHz tones, however, were inaudible to all, IIRC. I'll try to dig up that paper again.

Edit: Here is the paper. (http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/27/1/12/_pdf) Did not quite remember it correctly, but see for yourself.


While it is not a slam dunk that tests involving pure tones and music will have signficiantly different results, this is no doubt one of them. 

Since there are very very few musical instruments with fundamentals > even 10 KHz, anything above 20 KHz is going to be a harmonic of some fundamental below 20 KHz. Unless the content > 20 KHz is very, very strong, its going to be masked by fundamentals and/or lower harmonics below 20 KHz. Or its simply going to fall below the limit of audibility, which is very high at frequencies this high.

This would be a good time to post a spectral analysis of one of your 24/96 files... HA has a forum for doing this, so you don't need to line up space on your own. You could even post excerpts for others to listen to and/or analyze.

If you look in the scientific section of HA, there's even a paper about perception that has some masking curves in it. If you scale them up to the 8-10 KHz range, they do a pretty good job of wiping out all but the strongest responses > 10 KHz.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: C.R.Helmrich on 2009-05-15 23:48:42
While it is not a slam dunk that tests involving pure tones and music will have signficiantly different results, this is no doubt one of them. 

Since there are very very few musical instruments with fundamentals > even 10 KHz, anything above 20 KHz is going to be a harmonic of some fundamental below 20 KHz. Unless the content > 20 KHz is very, very strong, its going to be masked by fundamentals and/or lower harmonics below 20 KHz. Or its simply going to fall below the limit of audibility, which is very high at frequencies this high.

This would be a good time to post a spectral analysis of one of your 24/96 files... HA has a forum for doing this, so you don't need to line up space on your own. You could even post excerpts for others to listen to and/or analyze.

If you look in the scientific section of HA, there's even a paper about perception that has some masking curves in it. If you scale them up to the 8-10 KHz range, they do a pretty good job of wiping out all but the strongest responses > 10 KHz.

I'd really like to post a FLAC file of the LP here, but I recorded that 4 years ago at on a relative's turntable, and deleted it shortly afterwards (if only I knew back then...  ). Anyway, as I said, the high-frequency roll-off ended at 30 kHz. So the energy was already down quite low at 22 kHz. Yes, agreed, most likely below the hearing threshold. Just thought I'd add this comment since the original discussion was about accurate representation of Vinyl sound. If you don't digitize the entire spectrum "coming out of a vinyl", then it's not an accurate representation, I'd say.

I know about the masking curves at high frequencies. I posted some of them the other day  Yes, if you consider masking, it's even more likely that anything beyond 20 kHz on an LP is inaudible. Still, there's something there  The next time I get a hold of a turntable, I'll post a 24/96 FLAC.

Chris
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: greynol on 2009-05-16 00:02:43
The next time I get a hold of a turntable, I'll post a 24/96 FLAC.

While you're at it, convert it to dithered 16/44.1 and provide some ABX results.  Just make sure the clips are no longer than 30 seconds.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: krabapple on 2009-05-16 00:03:41
First, all digital ends up as 'analog sound' when it comes out of the DAC and ultimately your loudspeakers/earbuds/headphones

Second, your objection presumes that a good digitizing of an LP somehow changes the sound.  Why would you think that?


I've recorded a song from an 80's LP on my PC in 24bit/96kHz once and noticed that the bandwidth extended to around 30 kHz (true, the roll-off started at 15 kHz or so, but still, it reached till 30). So to be fair, one should record at 16bit/96kHz to get a "good digitizing of an LP", I think. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all above links offer only 16bit/44kHz samples. One FLACs was even processed with LossyWav!

Chris



Just because the bandwidth extends to 30kHz doesn't mean it's musical information; nor does it mean the reproduction is distortion-free or the level significant (notice that roll-off?). And that's all besides the paucity of evidence for audible perception above ~24 kHz max, (most people's top limit being well below 20 kHz, much less 24).  Finally, if you actually 'need' 30 kHz, then an 88kHz digitization will do nicely.




Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: greynol on 2009-05-16 00:08:42
I think the implication is that the information above 22 kHz is what is partly responsible for making vinyl more "danceable".
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: krabapple on 2009-05-16 00:17:02
I know about the masking curves at high frequencies. I posted some of them the other day  Yes, if you consider masking, it's even more likely that anything beyond 20 kHz on an LP is inaudible. Still, there's something there  The next time I get a hold of a turntable, I'll post a 24/96 FLAC.

Chris



No one's said there's nothing there.  The question is what 'it' is, and whether it matters. 

I have some FLACs that were originally 192/24 (ripped from DVD-A) , 96/24 (same) , some SACD 'laserdrops' that are 88/24,  and I'm sure I've got some LP captures that are 'hi rez' too.  I would never claim that the high sample rate makes an audible difference, though.  if anyone wants to hear clips, I can post some.



Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: WonderSlug on 2009-05-16 00:26:18
I think the implication is that the information above 22 kHz is what is partly responsible for making vinyl more "danceable".


Especially to cats and dogs.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: C.R.Helmrich on 2009-05-16 00:26:36
No one's said there's nothing there.  The question is what 'it' is, and whether it matters. 

I have some FLACs that were originally 192/24 (ripped from DVD-A) , 96/24 (same) , some SACD 'laserdrops' that are 88/24,  and I'm sure I've got some LP captures that are 'hi rez' too.  I would never claim that the high sample rate makes an audible difference, though.  if anyone wants to hear clips, I can post some.

Actually, yes, that would be great. Sorry, off-topic, but do you have something with significant high-frequency content? Like solo guitar, or percussion? I'd like to do a 16/44 vs. 24/96 ABX because I never did  (heard a comparison once at an AES conference, blind, but not double-blind and not random-order and not etc. etc.)

Chris
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: krabapple on 2009-05-16 08:10:21
I looked at spectra pf my complete repertoire of stuff in my archive that is still at 'hi rez' rates, and it was pretty amusing how most of it is obviously lowpassed at or below 22 kHz....some with extreme brickwall in place -- even when the delivery format is >44.1 kHz.  Still there were some that were truly 'full range' at the highrez sample rates, but actual musical material above that frequency is scant --- typically it looks like noise up there with some transient musical material.

No needledrops included in this round (I have to dig them up), just DVD-A rips or SACD transfers.  It also appears that I converted all my 'classical' hirez captures to 16/44 at some point, probably to save space at the time.  So all I have are some vintage (1960s-70s) recording  to show right now -- clips mostly of DVD-A rips.  The one SACD representative -- a gorgeous Muddy Waters recording from the 1960s --was captured from the stereo analog out of an Oppo 970 HD player, into an M-audio 2496 card, with Audition as the recording software, set to 88.2/24.  All of the 16/44 clips were resampled and reformatted from their highrez counterparts using Audition, with dither (triangular pdf, no noise shaping, dither depth 1, pre and post filtering on)

Apparently each of these can only be downloaded 10 times (rapidshare rule) but if there's persistent demand I can repost them.  THese are clips, not complete tracks.

Fleetwood Mac 'Dreams' from the Rumours DVD-A
http://rapidshare.com/files/233532367/Drea...p9624.flac.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/233532367/Dreams_clip9624.flac.html)
http://rapidshare.com/files/233532368/Drea...p1644.flac.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/233532368/Dreams_clip1644.flac.html)

Yes 'Five Percent for Nothing' from the Fragile DVD-A
http://rapidshare.com/files/233533239/Five...g2496.flac.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/233533239/Five_Percent_For_Nothing2496.flac.html)
http://rapidshare.com/files/233533240/Five...g1644.flac.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/233533240/Five_Percent_For_Nothing1644.flac.html)

Muddy Waters "Feel Like Going Home" from the Folk Singer SACD
http://rapidshare.com/files/233534243/Feel...e2488.flac.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/233534243/Feel_Like_Going_Home2488.flac.html)
http://rapidshare.com/files/233534244/Feel...e1644.flac.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/233534244/Feel_Like_Going_Home1644.flac.html)

Billy Cobham "Quadrant 4" from the Spectrum DVD-A
http://rapidshare.com/files/233534770/Quad...-2496.flac.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/233534770/Quadrant_4-2496.flac.html)
http://rapidshare.com/files/233534771/Quad...-1644.flac.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/233534771/Quadrant_4-1644.flac.html)

Neil Young "Heart of Gold" from the Harvest DVD-A
http://rapidshare.com/files/233535638/Hear...24192.flac.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/233535638/Heart_of_Gold24192.flac.html)
http://rapidshare.com/files/233535640/Hear...d1644.flac.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/233535640/Heart_of_Gold1644.flac.html)





Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: cliveb on 2009-05-16 09:03:55
Just because the bandwidth extends to 30kHz doesn't mean it's musical information

Some "audiophile" LPs might have a tiny bit of musical information >20kHz. And of course CD4 quad LPs have an FM carrier signal with the demodulation info up around 34kHz (or is it 35kHz?).

But for the overwhelming majority of LPs (like >99% of them), there's a very good reason why any signal above about 18kHz that comes off a mainstream LP isn't musical information: a low pass filter is deliberately applied at the cutting stage, primarily to prevent the RIAA-boosted high frequencies from overloading (or even burning out) the cutter head.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: C.R.Helmrich on 2009-05-16 14:00:19
Thanks a lot for the uploads, krabapple! Yes, the lowpass at 22 kHz is obvious. Plus the recordings are from the 60s or 70s. I don't think I will be able to ABX those against 16/44, so I won't

I uploaded a 16/96 recording of a digitally controlled analog synth in this thread (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=67882&view=findpost&p=634729). Found this on a CD-R from 2004. It contains a lot of "musical content" above 22 kHz, up to 48 kHz. I might ABX that against the 44-kHz downsampled version soon.

Cheers,

Chris
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Soap on 2009-05-16 14:17:07
I fricking hate rapidshare and I doubt I am alone.  Rather than complain, though, I have taken the liberty to rehost krabapple's samples (and added the entire collection in one .zip) at http://cleansoap.org/HA (http://cleansoap.org/HA).
I haven't tested these files, I assume they downloaded and uploaded without error.  Please PM me if you have any problems.

PS - the all.zip will not finish its upload until ~09:30 EDT.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Alex B on 2009-05-16 15:25:11
... Apparently each of these can only be downloaded 10 times (rapidshare rule) but if there's persistent demand I can repost them. ...

You can create a free "Collector's Zone" account to avoid that limitation. Just choose the "Create Collector's Zone account" option when you upload a file to rapidshare.com. After that you can use the account for all uploads.

Also, if you are uploading a few files that are related to each other it might be advantageous to wrap them in a single zip or rar package because then the "free" downloaders can get them all at once without waiting 15 minutes after each downloaded file.

EDIT:

If someone finds comfortable to use RS I uploaded the "all clips.zip" package from Soap's link also to my RS/CZ account:
http://rapidshare.com/files/233730933/HA_t...2_all_clips.zip (http://rapidshare.com/files/233730933/HA_topic71960_post22_all_clips.zip) (50.5 MB)
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: krabapple on 2009-05-16 17:21:48
Thanks a lot for the uploads, krabapple! Yes, the lowpass at 22 kHz is obvious. Plus the recordings are from the 60s or 70s. I don't think I will be able to ABX those against 16/44, so I won't

I uploaded a 16/96 recording of a digitally controlled analog synth in this thread (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=67882&view=findpost&p=634729). Found this on a CD-R from 2004. It contains a lot of "musical content" above 22 kHz, up to 48 kHz. I might ABX that against the 44-kHz downsampled version soon.

Cheers,

Chris


I wouldn't say that the files actually uploaded appear to be lowpassed at 22 -- there is 'content'  (background noise, mostly, with the occasional tendril ofhigher-energy content reaching above that).  That's why I chose these, versus others I didn't upload which are unmistakably lowpassed (inky black above the cutoff frequency) -- like the Talking Heads DualDiscs.



Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2009-05-16 17:50:53
I wouldn't say that the files actually uploaded appear to be lowpassed at 22 -- there is 'content'  (background noise, mostly, with the occasional tendril ofhigher-energy content reaching above that).  That's why I chose these, versus others I didn't upload which are unmistakably lowpassed (inky black above the cutoff frequency) -- like the Talking Heads DualDiscs.


There's a lot of clipping on "Dreams"???
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: krabapple on 2009-05-16 18:09:50
I fricking hate rapidshare and I doubt I am alone.  Rather than complain, though, I have taken the liberty to rehost krabapple's samples (and added the entire collection in one .zip) at http://cleansoap.org/HA (http://cleansoap.org/HA).
I haven't tested these files, I assume they downloaded and uploaded without error.  Please PM me if you have any problems.

PS - the all.zip will not finish its upload until ~09:30 EDT.



Thanks!  I'm no fan of rapidshare either (though I will establish a 'Collector's Zone' as suggested, and zip files in the future).

I realized I do have a few more recent, all-digital recordings (as well as one of the first all-digital -- Fagan's The Nightfly) on DVD-A, that I never ripped; I'm going to see what their spectra look like and upload clips if they're worthy. 

Also realized that Audition conversion filtering quality was set to default -- ~300.  While this is well within Audition's recommended range (100-400) I'll do future downsamples at 'highest quality' (999).


Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: krabapple on 2009-05-16 18:19:10
I wouldn't say that the files actually uploaded appear to be lowpassed at 22 -- there is 'content'  (background noise, mostly, with the occasional tendril ofhigher-energy content reaching above that).  That's why I chose these, versus others I didn't upload which are unmistakably lowpassed (inky black above the cutoff frequency) -- like the Talking Heads DualDiscs.


There's a lot of clipping on "Dreams"???



remarkable, innit?  And it's not just individual peaks hitting 0dBFS, you can find actual flattops in there.

DVD-A mastering  (and SACD too) is all over the map -- some discs exploit all the dynamic range they can , limited only by the master tape (like the Billy Cobham and Neil Young discs, and wonderful transfer of an 1977 quadraphonic recording of a Messiaen piece, that I'll be uploading a clip of later) , others are smashed like a modern pop CD, and others are in-between -- like the Fleetwood Mac disc.  Which was one of the earliest DVD-As released!

ONce I started looking at the data on 'high rez' discs, I started some threads on how a shocking number of discs marketed as 'high rez' are high-rez in *potential* only -- the actual signal mastered on them could just as well have been on Redbook.

this is a sort of master thread for that:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=65859 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=65859)

the first post there has a link to an AVSforum thread taht starts with a nice collection of waveforms, showing a range of mastering , er, philosophies.

Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: C.R.Helmrich on 2009-05-16 19:33:29
I wouldn't say that the files actually uploaded appear to be lowpassed at 22 -- there is 'content'  (background noise, mostly, with the occasional tendril ofhigher-energy content reaching above that).  That's why I chose these, versus others I didn't upload which are unmistakably lowpassed (inky black above the cutoff frequency) -- like the Talking Heads DualDiscs.

True, I guess that's the natural lowpass of the source tapes then, and the stuff above 22 kHz is tape (machine) noise. Except maybe for the Fleetwood Mac excerpt, yes, the snares do reach above the mid 20's kHz. I think this is perfectly mastered, btw. Exploits the full dynamic range, and has just the right amount of level compression.

Going back to the original topic: does anyone have Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here on Vinyl? In Welcome to the Machine, there's a screaming analog synth whose overtones extend far beyond 20 kHz. That'd be a nice song to test the actual bandwidth of an LP (regardless of whether the tones "up there" are harmonic distortion or not).

Chris
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: boondocks on 2009-05-16 22:27:57
Many people get that "great vinyl sound" out of extremely inexpensive systems - in fact, they get it from systems that other people abhor for their poor sound quality.

I posit that "great vinyl sound" really doesn't have that much to do with the actual audio involved, but is more a reflection of the emotions of the listener, and the tactile response of the medium. Those are very real factors, and it's not particularly useful to ignore them, insofar as they reflect real aspects of the enjoyment of music. But you shouldn't confuse them with more substantive aspects of sound quality, and you shouldn't necessarily buy into vinyl always expecting to get that level of enjoyment. It's a largely subjective phenomenon.


That is stated very well, Axon.  I agree completely.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: krabapple on 2009-05-18 05:57:18
I wouldn't say that the files actually uploaded appear to be lowpassed at 22 -- there is 'content'  (background noise, mostly, with the occasional tendril ofhigher-energy content reaching above that).  That's why I chose these, versus others I didn't upload which are unmistakably lowpassed (inky black above the cutoff frequency) -- like the Talking Heads DualDiscs.

True, I guess that's the natural lowpass of the source tapes then, and the stuff above 22 kHz is tape (machine) noise. Except maybe for the Fleetwood Mac excerpt, yes, the snares do reach above the mid 20's kHz. I think this is perfectly mastered, btw. Exploits the full dynamic range, and has just the right amount of level compression.



The Neil Young and Muddy Waters stuff sounds just as good, and is mastered without constant peaking at 0 (and certainly no clipping like on the Fleetwood Mac track). Exploiting the full dynamic range, to me, means the just the truly loudest parts of the track hit 0dBFS -- this rarely happens more than once or a few times in a track.  Not every drum  hit, and certainly not every beat of a mellow 1977 rock tune like 'Dreams', should be pinning at 0.

Here;s another set of DVD-A rip clips, all having some content above 20 kHz.  THe oldest is a 1977 recording of Messiaen's wild 'Turangalila Symphony' , a work whose orchestration including shrieking brass, a wailing theremin and masses of percussion. The other two are of 21st century vintage, one a Steely Dan piece, the other a CHesky live recording  of jazzer Bucky Pizzarelli's combo -- the latter has the most >20kHz content I've seen.  THe zip file includes hi-rez rips and 16/44 versions as before, for comparison. 

http://rapidshare.com/files/234260425/examples.zip (http://rapidshare.com/files/234260425/examples.zip)
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2009-05-18 11:13:45
Edit: Here is the paper. (http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/27/1/12/_pdf) Did not quite remember it correctly, but see for yourself.
Thanks for that - I was aware of the previous studies they referenced, but not that actual study.

Basically, above 20kHz you need about 90dB SPL or greater for a sound to be audible against silence.

You can't get close to that energy level at those frequencies with normal hi-fi. The tweeters melt.


Also, even for extreme content, if it's played so loud that the 20kHz+ region is at 90dB, the lower frequencies (i.e. the "normal" audible range) will be well over 100dB - i.e. well into the range where listening for a length of time will cause hearing damage.

Cheers,
David.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2009-05-18 11:13:46
delete duplicate post
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2009-05-18 16:35:24
Edit: Here is the paper. (http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/27/1/12/_pdf) Did not quite remember it correctly, but see for yourself.
Thanks for that - I was aware of the previous studies they referenced, but not that actual study.

Basically, above 20kHz you need about 90dB SPL or greater for a sound to be audible against silence.



And then there is masking.

And then there is sitting anyplace but exactly on axis.

And then there is the fact that virtually all musical instruments end up with harmonics trailing off at no less than 12 dB/ocatve. " The world is a collection of second-order systems".

Quote
You can't get close to that energy level at those frequencies with normal hi-fi. The tweeters melt.


And, the absorbtion of high frequencies by air is non-trivial when you get that high. This can bite you in the listening room but it is murder at the life performance.

Quote
Also, even for extreme content, if it's played so loud that the 20kHz+ region is at 90dB, the lower frequencies (i.e. the "normal" audible range) will be well over 100dB - i.e. well into the range where listening for a length of time will cause hearing damage.


As JJ points out, when you do damage your hearing, the damage often starts at the highest frequencies (hairs that are closest to the point where sound enters the sensitive part of the ear).

Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: C.R.Helmrich on 2009-05-18 21:49:58
http://rapidshare.com/files/234260425/examples.zip (http://rapidshare.com/files/234260425/examples.zip)


Thanks a lot! This is about the stuff I was looking for.

There is less clipping on the Fleetwood Mac item than it might look like. That's why I consider it good mastering  The Steely Dan item has significantly more clipping, for example.

Chris
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: krabapple on 2009-05-19 00:30:13
http://rapidshare.com/files/234260425/examples.zip (http://rapidshare.com/files/234260425/examples.zip)


Thanks a lot! This is about the stuff I was looking for.

There is less clipping on the Fleetwood Mac item than it might look like. That's why I consider it good mastering  The Steely Dan item has significantly more clipping, for example.

Chris



I'm familiar with seeing waveforms that 'look ' clipped at low resolution but aren't really, when you actually magnify them.  And I'm used to seeing, and discounting , some occasional clipping where 'plateaus' are just a few samples wide.

That's not quite the case with the Mac track. It's really clipping. The first flattop I zoomed in on was maybe a dozen samples wide.  Not saying every peak at 0dBFS is clipped, and not even saying I can hear it, but I just don't see the point of doing it in the first place.  Later on I can run a quantitative clipping analysis on the full track, using Clive Backham's excellent Wave Repair tool.  Wonder what I'll see?

What's happening with Steely Dan's 'high-rez' releases -- all of them so far, including the old 'Gaucho' album on DVD-A and SACD -- is just plain bizarre, in context of the Dan's legendary fastidiousness about sound.

The Chesky disc is a real showpiece for demonstrating high-rez.  It's basically giving us what hi-rez was supposed to.  Though again, I'm not saying it would sound any worse at 16/44. In fact I have yet to do the ABX myself!
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2009-05-19 03:24:18
The Chesky disc is a real showpiece for demonstrating high-rez.  It's basically giving us what hi-rez was supposed to.  Though again, I'm not saying it would sound any worse at 16/44. In fact I have yet to do the ABX myself!


The Limehouse Blues track illustrates the vanishing amount of energy that exists > 20 KHz in most recordings.

If I brickwall lowpass filter this track at 20 KHz, there is no difference in peak and average levels out to 4 decimal places.

If I brickwall highpass filter this track at 20 KHz, the average amplitude of the information > 20 KHz is 50-55 dB down.


Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: krabapple on 2009-05-19 21:00:06
The Chesky disc is a real showpiece for demonstrating high-rez.  It's basically giving us what hi-rez was supposed to.  Though again, I'm not saying it would sound any worse at 16/44. In fact I have yet to do the ABX myself!


The Limehouse Blues track illustrates the vanishing amount of energy that exists > 20 KHz in most recordings.


I wouldn't even say that, since the Chesky track impressed me visually as exceptional in the amount of >20khz content among all the 'high rez' track spectra I've looked at so far.  And from it I chose a segment whose spectrum looked to contain a concentrated dose of that content.  Perhaps you could you check the average amplitude of the other clips at > 20kHz, for comparison, and see if my impression was right?

So far to me what it suggests is that even with a 'best-case' commercial high rez recording and presentation of music, there's not much 'life', up there (despite what Boyk (http://www.its.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm)says).

What might also be interesting is if someone could close-mic some jangling keys (often cited as an 'ultrasonic' test case for the amount of >20kHz content generated) and record at 96/24 and see if a good 16/44 downconversion made any audible difference.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: lvqcl on 2009-05-19 21:47:42
Quote
What might also be interesting is if someone could close-mic some jangling keys


Something like this -  http://64.41.69.21/technical/reference/keys_2496.wav (http://64.41.69.21/technical/reference/keys_2496.wav) (PC ABX Reference Samples)?

Added: oops - guess who wrote this post: http://www.talkroot.com/203534-post2.html (http://www.talkroot.com/203534-post2.html)
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2009-05-19 22:01:27
Quote
What might also be interesting is if someone could close-mic some jangling keys


Something like this -  http://64.41.69.21/technical/reference/keys_2496.wav (http://64.41.69.21/technical/reference/keys_2496.wav) (PC ABX Reference Samples)?

They were made exactly for the purpose.

Added: oops - guess who wrote this post: http://www.talkroot.com/203534-post2.html (http://www.talkroot.com/203534-post2.html)


Same guy who wrote the following...

Ten (10) Requirements For Sensitive and Reliable Listening Tests

(1) Program material must include critical passages that enable audible differences to be most easily heard.

(2) Listeners must be sensitized to a audible differences, so that if an  audible difference is generated by the equipment, the listener will notice it and have a useful reaction to it.

(3) Listeners must be trained to listen systematically so that audible problems are heard.

(4) Procedures should be "open" to detecting problems that aren't necessarily technically well-understood or even expected, at this time. A classic problem with measurements and some listening tests is that each one focuses on one or only a few problems, allowing others to escape notice. 

(5) We must have confidence that the Unit Under  Test (UUT) is representative of the kind of equipment it represents. In other words  the UUT must not be broken, it must not be appreciably modified in some secret way, and must not be the wrong make or model,  among other things.

(6) A suitable listening environment must be provided. It can't be too dull, too bright, too noisy, too reverberant, or too harsh.  The speakers and other components have to be sufficiently free from distortion, the room must be noise-free, etc..

(7) Listeners need to be in a good mood for listening, in good physical condition (no blocked-up ears!), and be well-trained for hearing deficiencies in the reproduced sound.

(8) Sample volume levels need to be matched to each other or else the listeners will perceive differences that are simply due to volume differences.

(9) Non-audible influences need to be controlled so that the listener reaches his conclusions due to "Just listening". 

(10) Listeners should control as many of the aspects of the listening test as possible. Self-controlled tests usually facilitate this. Most importantly, they should be able to switch among the alternatives at times of their choosing. The switchover should be as instantaneous and non-disruptive as possible.


Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: C.R.Helmrich on 2009-05-19 22:06:29
Quote
What might also be interesting is if someone could close-mic some jangling keys


Something like this -  http://64.41.69.21/technical/reference/keys_2496.wav (http://64.41.69.21/technical/reference/keys_2496.wav) (PC ABX Reference Samples)?

They were made exactly for the purpose.

Added: oops - guess who wrote this post: http://www.talkroot.com/203534-post2.html (http://www.talkroot.com/203534-post2.html)


Same guy who wrote the following...


and guess who hosted this web site: http://64.41.69.21/technical/reference/ (http://64.41.69.21/technical/reference/). Thanks for that, by the way!

Chris
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: krabapple on 2009-05-20 05:12:01
Ah!  I guess I was having a past-life memory.

I'm glad PCABX is back.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2009-05-20 11:04:40
Ah!  I guess I was having a past-life memory.

I'm glad PCABX is back.


Sorry, it isn't.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: audioapprentice on 2009-06-24 03:39:58
sshd:

My surviving turntable is a p-mount, factory set, all plastic, bottom of the range offering from the mid-80s: a Pioneer PL-460. I think it sounds great!

Here is a sample of "great vinyl sound" from a 30 year old record, with lots of miles on the clock, on a cheap-as-it-gets turntable.  Enjoy!
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=72973 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=72973)

Of course, it's no CD.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: WmAx on 2009-06-25 01:16:08
A very high pitch stable table with a low resonance chassis combined with a high grade arm with very low resonance, using a clean mint-like condition LP of high pressing quality and a low noise phono pre-amp can sound almost identical to a superbly produced CD, even in terms of the noise floor. However, this does not seem to be a common combination for most people. I have several albums that sound like CD quality for the most part. But my table is a very high quality unit with a superb low resonance tone arm and my phono pre has fantastic measured noise performance.

-Chris
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2009-06-26 14:58:48
A very high pitch stable table with a low resonance chassis combined with a high grade arm with very low resonance, using a clean mint-like condition LP of high pressing quality and a low noise phono pre-amp can sound almost identical to a superbly produced CD, even in terms of the noise floor


Apprently nobody who posts needle drops has that combination of LP equipment, because I've never heard or measured such a thing. Of course, if you have examples, feel free to post links to them...
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: greynol on 2009-06-26 16:23:41
It's sort of the spirit of this thread to post samples rather than give incredible anecdotal evidence that doesn't exactly comply with TOS #8.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: WmAx on 2009-06-27 09:01:03
A very high pitch stable table with a low resonance chassis combined with a high grade arm with very low resonance, using a clean mint-like condition LP of high pressing quality and a low noise phono pre-amp can sound almost identical to a superbly produced CD, even in terms of the noise floor. However, this does not seem to be a common combination for most people. I have several albums that sound like CD quality for the most part. But my table is a very high quality unit with a superb low resonance tone arm and my phono pre has fantastic measured noise performance.

-Chris


By request, I 'withdraw' my statement. I can't actually withdraw it, as I don't see an EDIT function available. I suppose ADMIN has limited editing time window in the last year or so; it used to indefinite if memory serves me correctly.

If I get around to making specific recordings for you, I'll re-submit my statement later. But I did not originally intend to do this; I was sharing my direct experiences considering the similarity of audio I perceived under very specific conditions; that being lack of blatant artifacts or noise during music playback under those specific conditions.

-Chris
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2009-06-27 10:09:52
If you meant "during the music", then I don't think anyone would challenge you. It's easy to find music that's consistently loud enough to drown out the background noise of vinyl...

...but there's also plenty of music with sufficiently quiet moments to let the vinyl background noise shine through

Cheers,
David.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Mescalito on 2010-01-19 14:57:18
I have a Linn Sondek LP12/Ittok/Troika/Lingo/Linto set up. Now that's nearing as good as vinyl gets. I now only use it for transferring LPs which have never been issued digitally.

The net result is that I have a lot of FLACs of needle drops. They actually sound pretty good. Of course, on anything with a big dynamic range, the vinyl artifacts (surface noise & clicks intrude). My Akurate DS is better, but not much. When I get back home, I'll upload a couple.

Chris
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: ExUser on 2010-01-19 15:26:01
I await your uploads with eager anticipation.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2010-01-25 12:39:23
I await your uploads with eager anticipation.


Hmm, nearly a week later and nothing uploaded. Or is it someplace else on HA?
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Mescalito on 2010-01-26 08:51:17
I await your uploads with eager anticipation.


Hmm, nearly a week later and nothing uploaded. Or is it someplace else on HA?


Sorry, Mate,

I didn't make it home last weekend. Ended up having to go to Tunisia on business. Hopefully, I'll be able to upload something soon.

Regards,

Chris
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Cavaille on 2010-01-26 11:20:36
I wonder if I also can upload something.

To entertain myself I did a sampler for myself a month ago. I´m not sure if excerpts from that sampler would fit here since I used fairly standard vinyl equipment. As a turntable I used an old Grundig PS 3500 (itself a rebadged Technics with Direct Drive), the cartridge seems to be the product that came with turntable, my boyfriend exchanged the needle some 6 years ago. I found this turntable in the cellar of my boyfriend and I adjusted all settings like Anti-Skating to the optimum. The manufacturing quality is very good. Anyway, I recorded several vinyls with the lowest speed possible and without an RIAA-amplifier. I recorded with an E-MU 0202 USB in 192 kHz in 32 Bit (I needed that amount of data because I did some heavy processing afterwards). Most of the things were done only in software. Recording in low speed changes little crackles on the vinyl into bigger clicks which can be identified more easily by de-crackling software.

Although I´m under the impression that these vinyl rips of mine do sound very good I hated all of it. I hate Vinyl. All those pops and clicks... and the noise... bah! Still, anybody interested?
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: RonaldDumsfeld on 2010-01-26 11:50:00
^^ Yes please. especially if you have some well known stuff.

I'd like to compare your results with what I'm getting. Which are I'm sad to report are not as good as I hoped they would be and I haven't figured out why yet. 

Be useful to compare the results from a painstaking refurb job vs a £1 Mp3 download as well.

Gave up on the clicks, pops, surface noise removal stuff quite quickly except in the case of a very few much loved old favourites. If I was happy playing them on vinyl and never bothered with the CD what's the point? All credit to them what's made those wonderful tolls not withstanding.

---

TOS 8 and evidence for claims is great. HA is top.

Although I just had an amusing thought.

You cannot logically prove a negative (it even admits as much in the TOS themselves). If one is not expecting to find any difference that must be at least as suggestable as spending £100 on a new power cord  and then expecting the sound quality of your PA to improve. lol.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Cavaille on 2010-01-26 13:07:40
So, here they are. (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=78187)

Some of this music is mainstream, some is not. I encoded them with Nero AAC for better convenience. Every track is in 24/96, coming from the 32/192 source. Every track was recorded with the lowest speed the turntable offered, which means that in case of 45 records the recording took awfully long    I recorded them with my E-MU 0202 USB interface (with ASIO) that was feeded directly from the turntable. Then I did a first de-clicking and de-crackling and I also de-noised most of the tracks very, very carefully. After that I did the speedup with Sound Forge (after testing of course if Sound Forge would introduce distortions, which it didn´t). By doing the speedup after the first processing steps I was able to move possible distortions from the de-noising process out of the main frequency area. Then I did a second de-clicking & de-crackling and after that I applied the RIAA-curve with iZotope Ozone 4. I did some EQing on every track to adjust the sound to the original (coming from CD) or to my liking.

I did all processing steps very carefully. That´s why I had to remove remaining clicks manually by hand. In some cases this took an awful lot of time. I´ll now list the state of the tracks. Some records were played back wet - how could I have done this? Some records are fairly old and worn out. But listen for yourself.

HIStory, Michael Jackson (rest his soul): very seldomly played, original release (1995), 33 1/3 LP
Im Nin' Alu, Ofra Haza: worn out, severe clicks, 45 single
Theresa, Jan Hammer: original release (1987), seldomly played, 33 1/3 LP
Little Lady, Aneka: completely worn out, severe clicks, severe distortions, played wet, 45 single
Miles Away, Madonna: brand new, never played, coloured vinyl, original release (2008) 33 1/3 LP
Gremlins, Jerry Goldsmith: original release (1984), often played, 33 1/3
Smaointe..., Enya: seldomly played, played wet, severe distortions, 45 single
The Empire strikes back, John Williams: often played, several distortions, original release (1980), 33 1/3
Viva La Felicita, De-Phazz: often played, used for DJing by my boyfriend, original release (2002), 33 1/3
Woman in Love, Barbra Streisand: often played, original release (1980), 33 1/3

Before I forget: vinyls coming from before 1987 are not mine. They were bought by my parents and I saved them from the garbage can.

Equipment used: Grundig PS 3500 (DirectDrive, adjustable speed, rebadged Technics, date of manufacturing ca. 1977 or 1978). Cartridge: the one that came with the turntable (!), the needle was replaced with a new one six years ago. A/D converter: E-MU 0202 USB. Software: Sound Forge 9.0, iZotope Ozone 4, iZotope RX Advanced, Algorithmix DeClicker.

P.S.: thank God the CD was developed.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2010-01-26 13:17:11
With the caveat that I have a cold, and I don't have great high frequency hearing anyway (though not too bad!)...

Basically these sound great, but I think there's something very strange in the higher frequencies on some of them. I see part of the problem is a ~15kHz tone on some of the LPs - but there's also an 18kHz resonance or harmonic or something on the first sample, and other strange (though inaudible) things on the others e.g. strong ultrasonic tones on Gremlins, weak 17kHz on Enya, etc.

It could all be on the original recordings, but on the ones I can hear, it sounds weird to me. It makes my ears ring.

I suspect that you're getting far more information from these LPs than was ever intended!  e.g. on the Enya one, you can clearly see it was mastered from a 44.1kHz digital recording, because there's nothing above 22kHz.


Apart from this(!), I think your transfers are stunningly good.


EDIT: Which Algorithmix declicker did you use? Or was it mostly iZotope RX Advanced?? (Which costs more than most turntables!)

Cheers,
David.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Cavaille on 2010-01-26 13:31:50
Basically these sound great, but I think there's something very strange in the higher frequencies on some of them. I see part of the problem is a ~15kHz tone on some of the LPs - but there's also an 18kHz resonance or harmonic or something on the first sample, and other strange (though inaudible) things on the others e.g. strong ultrasonic tones on Gremlins, weak 17kHz on Enya, etc.

It could all be on the original recordings, but on the ones I can hear, it sounds weird to me. It makes my ears ring.

I suspect that you're getting far more information from these LPs than was ever intended!  e.g. on the Enya one, you can clearly see it was mastered from a 44.1kHz digital recording, because there's nothing above 22kHz.


Apart from this(!), I think your transfers are stunningly good.


EDIT: Which Algorithmix declicker did you use? Or was it mostly iZotope RX Advanced?? (Which costs more than most turntables!)

Cheers,
David.
Thank you very much. I know about these strange high tones. Most of these tone can be found on the originals also (especially with the track from Enya). And the mastering for the Enya track was only partially digital: the Uilleann pipe was recorded analogue. You can´t see that anymore but I saw it before I applied the RIAA frequency curve. But I have to admit that this could also be some distortion introduced by the cartridge. In case of the Ofra Haza track the high tone was so very strong that I used a notch filter to lower it. Quite successfully, I might add.

Strange that you can hear these tones at all. I tested the tracks with several playback equipment (they had to sound good on every one of them) and I couldn´t hear them, not even with my Sennheiser HD-600 - and I can hear up to 19 kHz. Your hearing must be fantastic, I envy you. Or, it could be that the compression of the AAC codec kicks in and disturbs the tones when transients are encoded.

I also have to say that the E-MU 0202 wasn´t completely free from tones itself. I still did not find the reason. I used the Algorithmix ScratchFree for the automated declicking & iZotope RX for manual declicking (on distorted s-consonants I used spectral editing because Algorithmix introduced some noise-like artifacts during declicking)

... and yes, it is an expensive hobby. 

If someone is interested... here is the mastering technique I suspect that was used which could be observed very good before applying RIAA:

HIStory, Michael Jackson (rest his soul): digital mastering with 48 kHz
Im Nin' Alu, Ofra Haza: partially digital
Theresa, Jan Hammer: digital
Little Lady, Aneka: analogue
Miles Away, Madonna: seems to be partially digital (some synths reach up to 30 kHz)
Gremlins, Jerry Goldsmith: orchestra: digital. synths: analogue
Smaointe..., Enya: partially digital, Uilleann pipe reaches up to 33 kHz
The Empire strikes back, John Williams: analogue
Viva La Felicita, De-Phazz: digital
Woman in Love, Barbra Streisand: analogue
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Tony T on 2010-01-26 13:56:18
I recently converted my vinyl to Flac (wav) and would appreciate any comments on the 4 samples I uploaded:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....c=78189&hl= (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=78189&hl=)
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: ExUser on 2010-01-26 14:06:34
I've got some samples to create and publish here too, from my ghetto-fabulous ripping set up, but first I need to purchase a breadboard to set up a proper RC loading circuit for my cartridge. The distortion is quite pronounced.

Perhaps this is what is happening with your rips Cavaille? Have you adjusted for the proper RC load for your cartridge?
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Cavaille on 2010-01-26 14:41:51
I've got some samples to create and publish here too, from my ghetto-fabulous ripping set up, but first I need to purchase a breadboard to set up a proper RC loading circuit for my cartridge. The distortion is quite pronounced.

Perhaps this is what is happening with your rips Cavaille? Have you adjusted for the proper RC load for your cartridge?
RC load? Help me with that, what does it mean? I adjusted azimuth & weight and I leveled the turntable out but apart from that I did nothing.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: ExUser on 2010-01-26 15:18:34
Here is the list of specifications for my cartridge: http://store.shure.com/store/shure/en_US/p...tID.104993100#t (http://store.shure.com/store/shure/en_US/pd/productID.104993100#t) Click the "Specifications" tab. Note the "Recommended Load" part. As you're clearly doing flat transfers, you'll need to put the appropriate load on the cartridge if you want the flattest frequency spectrum on the rips you make. There's a very good chance that the strange spectrum of your rips is a consequence of not loading the cartridge.

Here is how a proper loading circuit should look:
(http://imgur.com/A2Exc.gif)

Credit: I shamelessly ripped that picture from here: http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6674 (http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6674) That site has more discussion about RC loading. In the diagram, ignore R1 and L1, those are simply models of the circuitry of the cart. R2 and C1 are your resistive and capacitive loads, respectively. IVm1 is just a volt meter, and if I understand correctly, that's where your output lines should be wired.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: DonP on 2010-01-26 15:32:11
Here is how a proper loading circuit should look:


The 47K is the standard load, at least for MM cartridges.  C1 is to absorb any radio frequency signal that gets on the line and should not affect the audio frequency response.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: ExUser on 2010-01-26 15:36:16
Thanks for the info, DonP. I don't know this stuff particularly well, I'm afraid. Perhaps at the end of all of this I'll put together a guide.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Cavaille on 2010-01-26 15:36:57
Thank you for the explanation, Canar. But I´m afraid that I don´t have the means of adjusting the load. Furthermore I´m not able to measure the capacitance of the cable (it´s the soldered cable from the turntable). And I might add that I´m using the turntable only once per year. Vinyl never was my cup of tea and I don´t intend of buying stuff for it... well, maybe a new cartridge in the future. Instead, I´ll continue investing in newer software since I use that much much more often. 

For me these strange spectrums are all right since I adjust it via software... well, I admit, some things were left.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: pdq on 2010-01-26 17:30:07
Credit: I shamelessly ripped that picture from here: http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6674 (http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6674) That site has more discussion about RC loading. In the diagram, ignore R1 and L1, those are simply models of the circuitry of the cart. R2 and C1 are your resistive and capacitive loads, respectively. IVm1 is just a volt meter, and if I understand correctly, that's where your output lines should be wired.

You should also check the input circuitry of your sound card. It will certainly have an input resistor, and 47 k is a very common value to use. It will also probably have an input capacitor, but you would need to check its value.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Fedot L on 2010-01-26 22:01:20
Just because the bandwidth extends to 30kHz doesn't mean it's musical information

…of course CD4 quad LPs have an FM carrier signal with the demodulation info up around 34 kHz (or is it 35 kHz?).

The sound reproduction bandwidth of all the four CD-4 LPs’ “discrete quadra” channels is 30-15000 Hz.

CD-4 quadra LPs carrier frequency is 30 kHz. The (left front + left rear) “sum” and (right front + right rear) “sum” 30-15000 Hz signals are cut on the left and right sides of the groove. The (left front - left rear) “differential” and (right front - right rear) “differential” 30-15000 Hz signals modulate 30 kHz carrier frequency for the left and right channels, are ANRS-compressed in dynamic range, and are cut also on the left and right sides of the groove, simultaneously with the “sum” signals.

The highest frequency “cut” in the groove is 45 kHz. Being picked-up with a “quadra”-type cartridge (having 30-45000 Hz linear FR), and the (left front - left rear) “differential” and (right front - right rear) “differential” signals being demodulated and ANRS-expanded in dynamic range, all the four signals are converted by a decoder into four discrete quadra signals and played.

On 2-channel stereo equipment, the (left front + left rear) “sum” and (right front + right rear) “sum” 30-15000 Hz signals of a CD-4 record may be picked-up with “ordinary” high-class 2-channel stereo cartridges and played as a 2-channel stereo program. Or on mono equipment, picked-up with “ordinary” high-class mono cartridges and played as a mono program.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Fedot L on 2010-01-26 22:32:48
So, here they are. (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=78187)

I’d say, excellent!
Only “Viva La Felicita” seemed to me a little dull. 8 kHz 6 dB boost revived it in my perception.
And your efforts to achieve the final quality of the tracks were heroic. Only really precious records are worth them, I think.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Cavaille on 2010-01-27 05:28:35
So, here they are. (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=78187)

I’d say, excellent!
Only “Viva La Felicita” seemed to me a little dull. 8 kHz 6 dB boost revived it in my perception.
And your efforts to achieve the final quality of the tracks were heroic. Only really precious records are worth them, I think.
Thank you very much. You´re right about "Viva La Felicita". But I wouldn´t exaggerate the sound colouring I already did with most tracks. "Viva La Felicita" were in fact of such a high quality (despite being played often during DJing) that I only needed to remove 3 clicks by hand and by using too much EQ (which I tried) I almost lost the timing. This is the one track with almost no processing done. Other tracks were treated a bit more with stuff like EQ or stereo compressing/widening. The track where you can notice that I heavily altered its sound is "Little Lady": the bouncing synth line already was a bit out of sync, after processing even more. But I´m especially proud of "Im Nin' Alu" which now boasts a very sonor bassline, something that just wasn´t there that way before. It sounded so much like 80s... I had to do something about this.

You know, despite what people are saying... you actually can produce that "warm", colourful and full sound people often (wrongly) identify with Vinyl most of the time - just by using the proper EQ settings. But why should I only use only really precious records? I have to work with the things I got and I have to get the best out of them. And some music you can only find on worn-out vinyl. I even went so far as remastering the original sound. After I was finished with my processing on for example "The Empire strikes back" I realized that it wasn´t the vinyl that sounded awful, no it was the music itself. You can observe this very easily with the remastered CD re-release from 1997 - it also sounds awful. So I ended up adjusting the sound to my taste and to newer (digital) John Williams recordings.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: jamie_P84 on 2010-02-03 20:47:44
So, here they are. (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=78187)


Despite my having registered and logged in, these downloads do not work for me.
The filenames are listed but they are not links. Am I missing something here?

However, one thing I can say without playing them is that all the years you've listed for those records are post-1979.

The problem here is that between approx 1975 and 1979, the vast majority of record cutting plants installed digital "cutting delays" in-line between the analogue open-reel tape recorders and the cutting lathe. From what I've been told by an ex-engineer, these were originally 12-bit and 32KHz, and they added an audio delay to the tape output of several seconds. Later models (in the 80s) used higher bit depths and sample rates.
These devices were installed for work saving reasons; When cutting a record, the engineer has to manually press a button which generates the "shiny space" we see between tracks on the surface of LPs. The "cutting delay" was used to give him advanced warning of the end of each track (by monitoring the live output from the tape recorder), so that he knew when to press the button.
Prior to this, the engineer had to listen to the tape once-over in full and write all the timings down, before firing up the cutting equipment.

So basically, all of the records you've listed have been mastered from a digital source, negating most of the potential advantages of vinyl.

Before someone points it out, I have found that when looking at the output of my digitally-mastered records on a spectrum analyser, there is content above 16KHz (and even above 24KHz) when in theory there shouldn't be. However, I can only assume that this is some form of distortion from my playback equipment, because it's even present on records which have been cut from digital studio masters (where the CD version is marked DDD or ADD).
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2010-02-03 21:25:13
The problem here is that between approx 1975 and 1979, the vast majority of record cutting plants installed digital "cutting delays" in-line between the analogue open-reel tape recorders and the cutting lathe. From what I've been told by an ex-engineer, these were originally 12-bit and 32KHz, and they added an audio delay to the tape output of several seconds. Later models (in the 80s) used higher bit depths and sample rates.
These devices were installed for work saving reasons; When cutting a record, the engineer has to manually press a button which generates the "shiny space" we see between tracks on the surface of LPs. The "cutting delay" was used to give him advanced warning of the end of each track (by monitoring the live output from the tape recorder), so that he knew when to press the button.
Prior to this, the engineer had to listen to the tape once-over in full and write all the timings down, before firing up the cutting equipment.

So basically, all of the records you've listed have been mastered from a digital source, negating most of the potential advantages of vinyl.


The digital cutting delays that I'm familiar with were all 16/44 or better. We did an ABX of Ampex ADD1 and found that it was undetectiable by ear.

There is an ad for the Ampex ADD-1 digital delay for cutting rooms in the Oct 6. 1979 issue of Billboard.

The purpose of the delay was to facilitate automated setting of groove pitch. The delay provided a "look ahead" signal that was used to increase groove pitch for loud passages beofre the louder, wider pitch groove was cut. About a half second delay would suffice.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Cavaille on 2010-02-04 01:13:58
Despite my having registered and logged in, these downloads do not work for me.
The filenames are listed but they are not links. Am I missing something here?

However, one thing I can say without playing them is that all the years you've listed for those records are post-1979.

The problem here is that between approx 1975 and 1979, the vast majority of record cutting plants installed digital "cutting delays" in-line between the analogue open-reel tape recorders and the cutting lathe. From what I've been told by an ex-engineer, these were originally 12-bit and 32KHz, and they added an audio delay to the tape output of several seconds. Later models (in the 80s) used higher bit depths and sample rates.
...

So basically, all of the records you've listed have been mastered from a digital source, negating most of the potential advantages of vinyl.
Yes, it´s true. I´ve deleted them since I needed the space here for other files - but that didn´t work out. Still, I find your comment interesting. During mastering (and even on the finished tracks) I´ve observed frequencies over 16, 22 or 24 kHz. Let´s take the track "Music" for example by Madonna: one (presumably analogue) synthesizer used in the production produces "ghost frequencies" and therefore a very recognizable pattern when viewed with spectrum analysis. One part of this spectrum can be found at 17 kHz, the next part at 34 kHz (still visible) and another part at ca. 51 kHz (which was lost after downsampling from 192 kHz to 96). The same case with "The Empire strikes back" where some parts of the orchestra reached up to 35 kHz.

Especially the latter part could be because of distortions. There have to be some distortions, because percussion or transients with high frequency content always reach up to the end of the available spectrum and I can´t imagine that percussion reaches up that high all the time. For sure, all of this is very interesting but I wasn´t very fascinated by that. Since vinyl is an inferior source compared to CD (at least to me) I only wanted it to sound pristine without caring so much for frequencies beyond 20-25 kHz.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: cliveb on 2010-02-04 08:28:18
The purpose of the delay was to facilitate automated setting of groove pitch. The delay provided a "look ahead" signal that was used to increase groove pitch for loud passages beofre the louder, wider pitch groove was cut. About a half second delay would suffice.

Before the days of digital delays, this was achieved by having an additional playback head in advance of the main one. I realise that using a digital delay is unlikely to add audible degradation, but on the basis that you should pass the signal through as little circuitry as possible, the older method strikes me as theoretically superior. So, do you have any idea why this was replaced by digital delays? I'm just curious to know the reason.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2010-02-04 09:24:32
Despite my having registered and logged in, these downloads do not work for me.
The filenames are listed but they are not links. Am I missing something here?
Yes, it´s true. I´ve deleted them since I needed the space here for other files
@Cavaille - do you mind if I put them on MediaFire? Or maybe you can?

Cheers,
David.

Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Cavaille on 2010-02-04 14:04:30
Despite my having registered and logged in, these downloads do not work for me.
The filenames are listed but they are not links. Am I missing something here?
Yes, it´s true. I´ve deleted them since I needed the space here for other files
@Cavaille - do you mind if I put them on MediaFire? Or maybe you can?

Cheers,
David.
Daivd, if you still have them please feel free to do so. I´m afraid that I have erased them also on my harddrive.    I could do them anew but they´d be different then. Thank you very much in advance.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2010-02-04 14:34:41
Here you go:

/?sharekey=605ee2b5f85656f5e62ea590dc5e5dbb912f3b9b32a4a38fa4648785df63f216

add the above to the end of www.mediafire.com (which the HA board software has just prevented me from linking to!) to get the URL.

Cheers,
David.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: ExUser on 2010-02-04 16:03:12
Based on this incident, we have upped the user storage limit. You should be able to store more now Cavaille. David, by the way, as a developer, your upload limits are quite high.

Mediafire is blocked to encourage users to use the built-in upload functions as these web-upload sites are not usually particularly trustworthy.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2010-02-04 17:03:05
Based on this incident, we have upped the user storage limit. You should be able to store more now Cavaille. David, by the way, as a developer, your upload limits are quite high.

Mediafire is blocked to encourage users to use the built-in upload functions as these web-upload sites are not usually particularly trustworthy.
Yes, I see my limits are quite high. Still, they're not my files so it seemed unfair to upload them myself. Plus it would automatically wipe out some old attachments of mine, wouldn't it? I'm sure most are out-of-date, but some might get referred back to occasionally.

There are some very dodgy file sharing websites out there, but mediafire seems OK (at the moment).

I understand that requiring people to upload to HA will help enforce the TOS (e.g. 30 second rule) more easily.

Anyway, thanks for the explanation (and for not telling me off!).

Cheers,
David.

P.S. originally tried to send this as a PM only, but your mailbox is full Canar.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Cavaille on 2010-02-05 03:51:13
Here you go:

/?sharekey=605ee2b5f85656f5e62ea590dc5e5dbb912f3b9b32a4a38fa4648785df63f216

add the above to the end of www.mediafire.com (which the HA board software has just prevented me from linking to!) to get the URL.
Thank you very much!


Based on this incident, we have upped the user storage limit. You should be able to store more now Cavaille.
Wow. Just Wow. This is great. I think I´ll prepare some other, additional files.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: yamfox on 2010-06-05 01:06:58
This good:
Link (http://tinyurl.com/2cjf84s)
That's my vinyl rip, with a used $20 Pioneer and an even cheaper Shure cartridge. I get the vinyl sound.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2010-06-07 15:39:06
The purpose of the delay was to facilitate automated setting of groove pitch. The delay provided a "look ahead" signal that was used to increase groove pitch for loud passages beofre the louder, wider pitch groove was cut. About a half second delay would suffice.

Before the days of digital delays, this was achieved by having an additional playback head in advance of the main one. I realise that using a digital delay is unlikely to add audible degradation, but on the basis that you should pass the signal through as little circuitry as possible, the older method strikes me as theoretically superior. So, do you have any idea why this was replaced by digital delays? I'm just curious to know the reason.


The extra "look-ahead" tape head for pre-setting cutting ptich was considered to be messy and inconvenient.  At 15 ips one second worth of delay required a 15" loop of tape between the look-ahead tape head and the reproduce head, which could get to be a little awkward to set up.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Glenn Gundlach on 2010-06-07 18:20:59
This good:
Link (http://tinyurl.com/2cjf84s)
That's my vinyl rip, with a used $20 Pioneer and an even cheaper Shure cartridge. I get the vinyl sound.


Thanks for reminding me what vinyl sounds like. Now I remember why I no longer use it.

I also listened to the Abbey Road clip someone else did in January this year. OUCH

Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: doctorcilantro on 2010-09-01 22:16:20
Here is a 24/192 sample. (http://www.hifitubes.org/vr/Kind%20of%20Blue%20sample.wav)

And here is a 96kHz (http://www.hifitubes.org/vr/Kind%20of%20Blue%20sample24-96.wav)version SRC'd with Izoptope.

Short sample off album Kind of Blue. Cart. still needs break-in and azimuth isn't 100% correct, and......

Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: greynol on 2010-09-01 22:28:14
I can understand the 8 extra bits headroom and processing though I'm sure it could be done well @16 under fairly controlled conditions (it is only vinyl, afterall), but why @192?  Does your hardware not do justice to the capabilities of 44.1 (or 48 depending on the format)?  EDIT: If so, is it problem with aliasing and/or something else?  I'm not familiar with the current gamut of A/D converters.  Are there corroborative studies demonstrating audible problems when sampling at 44.1kHz?  48kHz?

Would anyone care to down-sample using at least two of the commonly recommended/highly-respected programs to 44.1/16 so that they can be used for a public listening test?
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: ExUser on 2010-09-02 00:10:24
Here is a 24/192 sample. (http://www.hifitubes.org/vr/Kind%20of%20Blue%20sample.wav)
The link doesn't work for me.

Also, it'd be nice to have a sample without so much masking noise, here imparted via what, hi-hat? Cymbal? RMS power barely ever drops below -30dB. Not much dynamic range there at all...

Then again, we are cherry-picking for places where vinyl sounds good, and such a case is exactly it.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: doctorcilantro on 2010-09-02 00:16:10
Here is a 24/192 sample. (http://www.hifitubes.org/vr/Kind%20of%20Blue%20sample.wav)
The link doesn't work for me.


Sorry, copied from an old email.

Try this:

96 (http://www.hifitubes.org/vr/kob2496.flac)
192 (http://www.hifitubes.org/vr/kob24192.flac)


change links to .wav if need be
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: doctorcilantro on 2010-09-02 00:20:30
I can understand the 8 extra bits headroom and processing though I'm sure it could be done well @16 under fairly controlled conditions (it is only vinyl, afterall), but why @192?  Does your hardware not do justice to the capabilities of 44.1 (or 48 depending on the format)?  EDIT: If so, is it problem with aliasing and/or something else?  I'm not familiar with the current gamut of A/D converters.  Are there corroborative studies demonstrating audible problems when sampling at 44.1kHz?  48kHz?

Would anyone care to down-sample using at least two of the commonly recommended/highly-respected programs to 44.1/16 so that they can be used for a public listening test?


I'm doing digital RIAA, manual click removal (none needed here), and also normalized to -.03db. 192kHz seems to allow best manual declicking. I usually SRC down to 96 with Izotope.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: ExUser on 2010-09-02 00:23:18
Would anyone care to down-sample using at least two of the commonly recommended/highly-respected programs to 44.1/16 so that they can be used for a public listening test?
foobar2000 dither, SoX, 90% passband, minimum phase, advanced limiter to catch any potential clipping. http://baryon.ca/temp/kindofblue.flac (http://baryon.ca/kindofblue.flac)

Someone else can do the other one.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: doctorcilantro on 2010-09-02 01:18:49
Here is a 24/192 sample. (http://www.hifitubes.org/vr/Kind%20of%20Blue%20sample.wav)
The link doesn't work for me.

Also, it'd be nice to have a sample without so much masking noise, here imparted via what, hi-hat? Cymbal? RMS power barely ever drops below -30dB. Not much dynamic range there at all...

Then again, we are cherry-picking for places where vinyl sounds good, and such a case is exactly it.


So vinyl doesn't sound good unless it has only a massive dynamic range? This is the remaster Kind of Blue on blue vinyl. Maybe it's compressed. I don't know. I will find you want some other stuff when I have my table setup correctly. There are still some issues to be sorted out too.

@ Greynol, I'm sure if you are asking for a needledrop or a diatribe on why I use 192kHz? Surely, that is for another thread???

FYI, this was recorded at 64bit float (: ) and Mbit+ Ultra Normal dither was used, to 24bit.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: ExUser on 2010-09-02 02:10:47
So vinyl doesn't sound good unless it has only a massive dynamic range?
No, but low dynamic range masks the imperfections of the format and does not provide a full picture of what your equipment is truly capable of.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: greynol on 2010-09-02 03:39:19
@ Greynol, I'm sure if you are asking for a needledrop or a diatribe on why I use 192kHz? Surely, that is for another thread???

A needledrop would be fine.  Considering the title is "How Good Can Vinyl Sound?" I don't see why questioning the benefits of increased resolution are not germain to the discussion.

Is there any evidence that de-clicking requires such a high sample rate?

I'm looking for any and all justifications that are not placebo-based.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: krabapple on 2010-09-02 04:43:28
Here is a 24/192 sample. (http://www.hifitubes.org/vr/Kind%20of%20Blue%20sample.wav)

And here is a 96kHz (http://www.hifitubes.org/vr/Kind%20of%20Blue%20sample24-96.wav)version SRC'd with Izoptope.

Short sample off album Kind of Blue. Cart. still needs break-in and azimuth isn't 100% correct, and......



please post again after the cartridge has 'broken in'.  I'd like to hear the effect
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: doctorcilantro on 2010-09-02 04:53:17
Here is a 24/192 sample. (http://www.hifitubes.org/vr/Kind%20of%20Blue%20sample.wav)

And here is a 96kHz (http://www.hifitubes.org/vr/Kind%20of%20Blue%20sample24-96.wav)version SRC'd with Izoptope.

Short sample off album Kind of Blue. Cart. still needs break-in and azimuth isn't 100% correct, and......



please post again after the cartridge has 'broken in'.  I'd like to hear the effect


No sure if there will be one. once the cantilever's suspension has broken in, the Grados usually sit a tad lower, so we'll see.

I can post the UTR 1kHz-10hz sweep and a few unmodulated groove tracks, but I need to make an adjustment to some wiring to fix some work someone did for me...backwards.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: doctorcilantro on 2010-09-02 04:56:40
@ Greynol, I'm sure if you are asking for a needledrop or a diatribe on why I use 192kHz? Surely, that is for another thread???

A needledrop would be fine.  Considering the title is "How Good Can Vinyl Sound?" I don't see why questioning the benefits of increased resolution are not germain to the discussion.

Is there any evidence that de-clicking requires such a high sample rate?

I'm looking for any and all justifications that are not placebo-based.


Sure, np. There are plenty of threads to sift through here at HA. I'm not an expert, just playing around with this stuff. I usually just bother Axon with asinine questions and try to learn a bit ; )
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: doctorcilantro on 2010-09-02 04:58:39
So vinyl doesn't sound good unless it has only a massive dynamic range?
No, but low dynamic range masks the imperfections of the format and does not provide a full picture of what your equipment is truly capable of.


Okay, np, I was hoping that's what you meant.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2010-09-02 09:38:20
FYI, this was recorded at 64bit float (: ) and Mbit+ Ultra Normal dither was used, to 24bit.
Are you joking, or do you really think you have a 64-bit floating point ADC?!

Cheers,
David.

Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2010-09-02 09:56:13
Try this:

96 (http://www.hifitubes.org/vr/kob2496.flac)
192 (http://www.hifitubes.org/vr/kob24192.flac)
I think that sounds really nice. Maybe a little bright, but no noise or distortion to impair the enjoyment of the music. Which IMO is true of vinyl playback of most pop music. And is true of CD playback of all music.

FWIW, and I could very well be wrong, but it looks like the only surviving original musical content is below 20kHz. Everything above 20kHz looks like replay distortion. Very close examination of the hi-hat hits shows the above 20kHz content to be a string of impulses, mostly centred on the peaks of the sub-20kHz waveform. IIRC wide bandwidth recordings of cymbals don't look like this at all, but vinyl groove distortion can (albeit usually seen and head at lower frequencies).

So it's fine - but it's not better than 16/44.1 - objectively or subjectively (unless someone can ABX the 16/44.1 version from Canar against the 96k or 192k versions).

Cheers,
David.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: doctorcilantro on 2010-09-02 11:21:49
FYI, this was recorded at 64bit float (: ) and Mbit+ Ultra Normal dither was used, to 24bit.
Are you joking, or do you really think you have a 64-bit floating point ADC?!

Cheers,
David.



The Lynx driver, like most, communicates at 24bit as we all know. WL6 recorded at 64bit float; digital riaa, editing clicks, and normalization. overkill? Maybe. 32bit float would be fine (and many would argue 24bit).

I didn't really perceive it as bright, but it is a horn and maybe a more varied sample of instruments would useful. Many have discussed horns should be bitting, of course not painfully bright. Anyway, I'll do the same needledrop again.

I think the interesting discussion is what Axon brought up about the sourcing of the vinyl master. Many seemed to pass this off as unimportant. I'm interested in taking a closer look at new releases, not really arguing about bit depth or sample rates which has been done ad infinitum here. Thanks for listening!
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2010-09-02 11:27:48
The driver works at 24bit. WL6 recorded at 64bit float; digital riaa, editing clicks, and normalization. overkill? yes. 32bit float would be fine.
I see - so 24 > 64 > process > 64 > 24. That makes sense.

Certainly for some processing floating point is entirely justified simply on the grounds of convenience - you don't have to worry about peak level or clipping. I agree 64 vs 32 seems somewhat esoteric, though if you think every one of the final 24 bits is vitally important, then mathematically you can make some argument for 64-bit. Hardly relevant in this universe with human ears, but...!

Cheers,
David.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2010-09-03 11:30:49
So vinyl doesn't sound good unless it has only a massive dynamic range?
No, but low dynamic range masks the imperfections of the format and does not provide a full picture of what your equipment is truly capable of.



How low does dynamic range have to be in order to *unmask* the imperfections of the medium and the equipment?
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: ExUser on 2010-09-03 16:54:35
How low does dynamic range have to be in order to *unmask* the imperfections of the medium and the equipment?
Well, it'd be nice if we could hear the noise of the equipment instead of just the noise of the percussion. Some "silence" would be great.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: doctorcilantro on 2010-09-03 18:21:39
How low does dynamic range have to be in order to *unmask* the imperfections of the medium and the equipment?
Well, it'd be nice if we could hear the noise of the equipment instead of just the noise of the percussion. Some "silence" would be great.


I have some unmodulated groove needledrops, and some straight silence. The problem is, the setup is not optimal yet. i have to rewire something I overlooked first.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2010-09-04 02:10:19
How low does dynamic range have to be in order to *unmask* the imperfections of the medium and the equipment?
Well, it'd be nice if we could hear the noise of the equipment instead of just the noise of the percussion. Some "silence" would be great.


I have some unmodulated groove needledrops, and some straight silence. The problem is, the setup is not optimal yet. i have to rewire something I overlooked first.


I'd like to see some samples of them. When you get everything right, they'd be a good reference for showing what progress you have made...
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: doctorcilantro on 2010-09-17 20:48:56
RT posted a very interesting read:

Quote
Tracking paper available for free
I'm not dead!

I've uploaded my tracking simulation paper here (http://files.audiamorous.net/trackingerrorsimulator/tollerton127stripped.pdf). It is not the same PDF as what you would download from aes.org; an added footnote to the paper reads:
This is a revised version of the preprint presented at the 127th AES convention in October 2009, and available from the AES. That preprint remains the authoritative version of this text. Here, the copyrighted AES logo and other convention livery are removed, but the contents of the paper are unmodi ed.
Title: How Good Can Vinyl Sound?
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2013-02-27 15:53:18
Here is how a proper loading circuit should look:


The 47K is the standard load, at least for MM cartridges.  C1 is to absorb any radio frequency signal that gets on the line and should not affect the audio frequency response.


I know this is an old thread, but the above is in error and may mislead people surfing the HA archives.

C1 changes the resonant frequency of the LC network formed by the inductance of the cartridge pickup coil and its total capacitive load.

This is a series LC network, so the resonance being changed is a series resonance which is a null.

The effect of changing this capacitor varies with the particular cartridge involved. It can range from moot to very significant.

IME just about every Shure cartridge is sensitive to tuning this capacitor's value, and every Grado cartridge I've tried didn't care.

The recommended way to tune it is to tune it for best frequency response as measured on the frequency response test band(s) of a good test record.