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Topic: Encode from lossless to lossyor from wav to lossy? (Read 4742 times) previous topic - next topic
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Encode from lossless to lossyor from wav to lossy?

I'm archiving a box of cassettes, and I'm encoding all the wavs to a lossless (I'm using Monkey) to burn to DVDs. But I want to keep a lossy copy on my harddrive for my playlist library. Is it ok to just encode directly from the Monkey files to LAME, or should I use the original wav files as source (I'm using foobar2000)? I'm asking because it seems that even though Monkey is lossless, I'm still going from one compression algorithm to another compression algorithm, whereas going from wav to LAME is directly from the source.

Encode from lossless to lossyor from wav to lossy?

Reply #1 –
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I'm archiving a box of cassettes, and I'm encoding all the wavs to a lossless (I'm using Monkey) to burn to DVDs. But I want to keep a lossy copy on my harddrive for my playlist library. Is it ok to just encode directly from the Monkey files to LAME, or should I use the original wav files as source (I'm using foobar2000)? I'm asking because it seems that even though Monkey is lossless, I'm still going from one compression algorithm to another compression algorithm, whereas going from wav to LAME is directly from the source.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=281807"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well, you won't lose quality if you decide to go from APE to LAME, but it will be a bit slower since APE decoding needs additional CPU. What you could do is use MAREO and configure it to encode to APE and LAME "at the same time".

Encode from lossless to lossyor from wav to lossy?

Reply #2 –
If you are tagging the monkey files then with most programs converting to mp3 etc will carry the tags along.  The extra CPU load of decoding should be insignificant compared to the lame encode.

Encode from lossless to lossyor from wav to lossy?

Reply #3 –
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I'm asking because it seems that even though Monkey is lossless, I'm still going from one compression algorithm to another compression algorithm, whereas going from wav to LAME is directly from the source.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=281807"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
(sigh)

As has been mentioned many times recently, lossless codecs are called that because they are lossless (without loss). Yes, it is compression, but the usual loss from transcoding is there because of the properties of lossy codecs and how they encode audio, not from compression itself.

Lossless is identical to the source in terms of the audio data it contains thus there can be no quality loss converting (in your case) from APE to LAME (compared to going from wav to LAME).

EDIT: clarification

Encode from lossless to lossyor from wav to lossy?

Reply #4 –
Supernaut - Oh I understand THAT, what I was concerned about was the possibility of glitches that happens DURING the decoding of Monkey. See, if you transcode, you are adding a decompression in your procedure, and therefore adding another possibility of decoding glitches, right?

Encode from lossless to lossyor from wav to lossy?

Reply #5 –
AFAIK most modern lossless compressors (monkey's included) keep a hash of the original audio inside the file, so if any problem occurs during decompression an error message would be thrown out.

Don't worry about going durectly from ape to mp3 with foobar2000...

someone correct me if i'm wrong.

Encode from lossless to lossyor from wav to lossy?

Reply #6 –
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See, if you transcode, you are adding a decompression in your procedure, and therefore adding another possibility of decoding glitches, right?[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=281828"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ah, but I see no way these decoding glitches could appear, as long as you have the original unmodified APEs. As long as your APE remains undamaged, you will get the original wave upon decompression, every time.

The only problem you could have is if your DVDs get damaged, but then you wouldn't be any safer with wav either.

Encode from lossless to lossyor from wav to lossy?

Reply #7 –
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Ah, but I see no way these decoding glitches could appear, as long as you have the original unmodified APEs. As long as your APE remains undamaged, you will get the original wave upon decompression, every time.

The only problem you could have is if your DVDs get damaged, but then you wouldn't be any safer with wav either.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=281839"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Gotcha. That's the answer I needed to hear. Thanks!

Encode from lossless to lossyor from wav to lossy?

Reply #8 –
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See, if you transcode, you are adding a decompression in your procedure, and therefore adding another possibility of decoding glitches, right?[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=281828"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ah, but I see no way these decoding glitches could appear, as long as you have the original unmodified APEs. As long as your APE remains undamaged, you will get the original wave upon decompression, every time.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=281839"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
True, although it's worth remarking that there have been numerous reports acknowledging Monkey's Audio's file format to be slightly more susceptible to file corruption than other codecs, leaving your APE files unplayable and even unrecoverable. I've had similar experiences with Monkey's Audio, BTW.

Encode from lossless to lossyor from wav to lossy?

Reply #9 –
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True, although it's worth remarking that there have been numerous reports acknowledging Monkey's Audio's file format to be slightly more susceptible to file corruption than other codecs, leaving your APE files unplayable and even unrecoverable. I've had similar experiences with Monkey's Audio, BTW.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=281982"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


What would be a more secure choice then? FLAC? Wavpack? Or one of the big boys (Apple/Microsoft)?

Encode from lossless to lossyor from wav to lossy?

Reply #10 –
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there have been numerous reports acknowledging Monkey's Audio's file format to be slightly more susceptible to file corruption than other codecs, leaving your APE files unplayable and even unrecoverable. I've had similar experiences with Monkey's Audio, BTW.

Am I right in saying this was a 3.97 problem?

As I have my entire CD collection stored in APE format on DVD such statements scare the Hell out of me.

In the pinned topic "Which is the best lossless codec?" MAC has "Error Robustness" as a PRO.  guruboolez has even tested the error robustness.

Thankfully, I have PAR2 also.  I believe I made this decision after reading one of your posts.

I did search on this topic, but the results were inconclusive.  As you have experienced first hand I would like to ask whether this was using 3.99.

Edit: On further investigation a few people have put corrupted APEs down to imminent hardware failure or poor hardware setup.  I guess if this is the case the corruption would occur on encoding.  My scripts verify the APE at the end of the process, so I guess I've been OK so far, at around 350 CDs down.
I'm on a horse.

Encode from lossless to lossyor from wav to lossy?

Reply #11 –
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Quote
True, although it's worth remarking that there have been numerous reports acknowledging Monkey's Audio's file format to be slightly more susceptible to file corruption than other codecs, leaving your APE files unplayable and even unrecoverable. I've had similar experiences with Monkey's Audio, BTW.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=281982"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What would be a more secure choice then? FLAC? Wavpack? Or one of the big boys (Apple/Microsoft)?[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=281984"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Any answer of mine would reflect my very personal and fragmentary opinion only. Which is completely eclipsed by the many relevant posts in this very forum, that's all about answering that same question.

Edit: As is your own current longevity poll, BTW.

In other words: I think you've still got a lot of reading to do
 

Encode from lossless to lossyor from wav to lossy?

Reply #12 –
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there have been numerous reports acknowledging Monkey's Audio's file format to be slightly more susceptible to file corruption than other codecs, leaving your APE files unplayable and even unrecoverable. I've had similar experiences with Monkey's Audio, BTW.

Am I right in saying this was a 3.97 problem?[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I honestly don't have any idea, as I haven't been using Monkey's for over a year now. I do see comparable questions passing along on [a href="http://www.monkeysaudio.com/smf]the official MAC forums[/url] from time to time, though.

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As I have my entire CD collection stored in APE format on DVD such statements scare the Hell out of me.[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't think you have much to worry about, since you have the habit of creating PAR2s of your APEs at the same time.

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Thankfully, I have PAR2 also.  I believe I made this decision after reading [a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=21713&view=findpost&p=223738]one of your posts[/url]. [{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My pleasure. That wasn't the first occasion on which I'd mentioned PAR2, BTW.

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I did search on this topic, but the results were inconclusive.  As you have experienced first hand I would like to ask whether this was using 3.99.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=282005"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, that was back in the 3.97 days.

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On further investigation a few people have put corrupted APEs down to imminent hardware failure or poor hardware setup.  I guess if this is the case the corruption would occur on encoding.  [a href="http://www.neilpopham.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/cd_backup.html]My scripts[/url] verify the APE at the end of the process, so I guess I've been OK so far, ...[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=282005"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Indeed you are, I would say.