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Topic: Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl? (Read 23918 times) previous topic - next topic
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Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #75 –
just one line: Arny, so your basically a pro-word-twister, professional troll?
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Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #76 –
A clown masquerading as an expert in all things he discusses.
http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php...st&p=906257

Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #77 –
For mzil:
Quote
If your CD master has what I consider optimal dynamics – DR10 or more overall with DR8 as a minimum – then it’s quite suitable for a flat transfer to vinyl. And DR14+ may sound even better… At least, assuming you don’t have any wild sibilance, hugely out-of-phase content, or all the bass panned to one channel !

And even if you do, a decent engineer will take account of that as a matter of course during the cut – it doesn’t require a separate mastering session. Some engineers may make a few other subtle tweaks, if you agree, or even make it sound different, if you ask them to – but it’s NOT a technical requirement.
http://productionadvice.co.uk/vinyl-mastering/

As you can see, I can also search the web for heresay hearsay. ;-P

Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #78 –
I think the most important part of the article is this:

Quote
The short version is – there’s no requirement to get a separate vinyl master done, but it’s an option if you’d like to. The main advantage will be to get a cleaner, more “dynamic” sound – but a separate master is only mandatory if your CD master is “loudness war” loud.

The most cost-effective way to get a great-sounding release on vinyl is simply to send the hi-res master files – making sure that they aren’t over-cooked – directly to the cutting engineer. They will choose the best settings to get good results from the vinyl format based on the sound of your material, as part of the normal price. For a well-mastered album, it’s simply a case of choosing the correct level and perhaps a few minor tweaks – no extra mastering is required.

And in fact, it works backwards, too ! If you master with a great vinyl release in mind (using a VU meter?) then the chances are your music will sound superb on all the most advanced 21st-century formats, as well.

How’s that for irony ?


Do a proper master in the first place, and it will sound good everywhere.

Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #79 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
I also am pretty sure that I'm probably the only person in this discussion who has actually touched  an operational HS tape machine,l LP cutting lathe, prepared lacquers or LP pressing dies. For the rest of you, it likely is all just a bunch of pictures and abstractions. I'm probably also the only person who routinely produced original recordings for mass distribution


No you're not. Though it is true that I haven't been part of the discussion

Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #80 –
"I hear it when I see it."

Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #81 –
I'm not entirely sure why that link with the YouTube video is for me, greynol. It seems to be predominantly about a topic I have never addressed in this thread: clipression (I believe you call it). Every single post of mine here was in response to (or followups to) comments by others (originally in the other thread which this one was split from) regarding one singular topic: how LPs differ from CDs in that we are forced to compromise loud, heavily stereophonic, low bass content somewhere in the overall vinyl production line, to guard against problems caused by the deficiencies inherent to how the Westrex 45/45 system works.

Indeed Ian Shephard's YouTube song nicely illustrates my point, that although there can be low bass content off to one side at lower levels, all full level low bass content (or close to full) must be panned to the middle area, ideally perfectly dead center (but anywhere away from the hard sides will usually suffice) such as the drums in his YouTube song selection, and must not be placed in one channel only, at least not at loud levels, when cutting vinyl. [With digital formats, like CD, it of course doesn't matter].

There are several locations along the chain of events where the bass modifications, the fix(es) (for example: EE and VAL) may be applied prior to the cutter head. [Although I don't see how worrying about where exactly the fixes are applied matters, at least it is of no concern to me and seems immaterial to the question of how, and if, vinyl versions of music might sound different than digital ones. If however the location of the fix is important to you and you wish to discuss it, feel free to do so with others, however be advised I won't be participating.] CD, on the other hand, doesn't suffer from this "must avoid heavily stereophonic, loud bass" problem so it never has to be accounted for or fixed (luckily for people like aj, especially, who I believe listens with stereo subs): loud, full level, even deeper frequency than vinyl can comfortably handle bass can be pegged to hard left, or hard right, without any concerns (should it be desired by the recording artists).
---
Quite clearly I think we can all agree that modifications to the bass placed on vinyl, my topic, is unrelated to the title of this thread, so I would kindly ask that you split off my posts to yet another new thread, where I would be glad to discuss this further, should you choose, or please drop this off-topic side discussion here and now; that's perfectly fine too. Bass modification for vinyl, what I'm addressing, has nothing to do with dynamic range, clipression, or what may cause the erroneous data we see from the TTDR meter.
[Which I seem to recall you and I were largely in agreement about]:

Quote from: greynol on
I think mzil's explanation cuts closest to what is going on.

Thanks.

P.S. I see your post has changed since I composed this response, now having a highlighted section you've quoted from your link it didn't have originally, however my main point, that a new thread is in order, should you wish to continue our side discussion that I doubt anyone else reads or cares about [speak up if I'm wrong, gang!], remains valid.

Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #82 –
I asked you multie times whether placing bass in the center necessitates as separate master and I got an answer from Ian instead: no, because it can be done at the cutting house.

Now you want your own thread?  C'mon.

EDIT: Tell you what, I will re-title it.  For those interested it was titled: "Can modern dynamic-range compression be pressed to vinyl?"

Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #83 –
Quote from: greynol on
I asked you multie times whether placing bass in the center necessitates as separate master and I got an answer from Ian instead: no, because it can be done at the cutting house.

Now you want your own thread?  C'mon.

EDIT: Tell you what, I will re-title it.  For those interested it was titled: "Can modern dynamic-range compression be pressed to vinyl?"

For vinyl, the loud bass must be placed somewhere in the middle. Which step you do this in doesn't matter, what matters is that the end result, the sound placed on the vinyl record, must be modified from that of the CD, by placing all loud bass content in the center area, ideally dead center if cutting the record as loudly as possible is desired (which benefits listeners in that they'll hear less surface noise during playback). I also listed in an earlier post exceptions where it doesn't have to be addressed. I can reiterate them if need be.

Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #84 –
Let me help you out here:
Quote from: KozmoNaut on
By far the majority of modern releases on vinyl use the exact same master as the CD or download version, so there's no real difference in sound quality apart from what the LP format itself imparts.

LP format -> LP format and processing needed to address the format's inherent limitations

I'm sure KozmoNaut doesn't care as he made it clear that his statement, on the back of theriverlethe's question, on the back of my comment (yes, I was the person who instigated this whole entire mess in the first place, so I think I have a handle on what it's about), is really about masters, not differences in sound quality.

You wanted to stipulate where some differences in sound quality can arise, great.  That was never in dispute.

Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #85 –
For the record, this has been in our wiki article on vinyl myths for some time now:
Effect of vinyl mastering on dynamic range

Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #86 –
Quote from: greynol on
For the record, this has been in our wiki article on vinyl myths for some time now:
Effect of vinyl mastering on dynamic range

From that:

"Effect of vinyl mastering on dynamic range

... But even when the same source master is used, the audio is normally further processed when mastering for the target format (be it CD or vinyl), and this often results in vinyl having a spikier waveform and higher DR measurement. There are two types of processing during vinyl mastering that can increase the DR measurements and waveform spikiness, thus reducing the RMS and increasing the basic DR measurement by perhaps several dB:
-  The audio is subjected to low-pass or all-pass filtering, which can result in broad peaks becoming slanted ramps.
- The amount and stereo separation of deep bass content is reduced for vinyl, to keep the stylus from being thrown out of the groove. "
[bold text for emphasis mine]

Saying that with a frequency of occurrence which is described with the word  "normally",  we should expect that the engineers will modify the sound "when mastering for the target format" (and then later similarly with the term "during vinyl mastering"), "The amount and stereo separation of deep bass content is reduced for vinyl",  I find quite interesting.

... I wonder if the step where the rock band gathers around the cutting lathe and screams right at the cutter head a final "Goodbye!" at a close range, so as to etch in a very faint grove modulation that can be heard by some keen-eared listeners at elevated playback levels, said to have occurred on some LPs (not that I've ever heard it myself), makes the "mastering engineers"?

Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #87 –
FWIW, I can't speak to the accuracy of everything in the article, though I do have full faith in the abilities, tenacity and dedication of the guy who has done most of the recent work on it.  This is not to say I take issue with previous contributions other than the edit I rolled back, though it was an honest mistake that was rectified.  Provided that the participants come away knowing more than they did before, it's all good in my book.

Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #88 –
^Do you agree however, based on the quote I just gave, that with the current wording the wiki could easily be taken to mean, to paraphrase:
"Normally when mastering for the target format of vinyl, the music that is placed on the master has some of its stereo separation for the deep bass content reduced.", yes?

--
Also KozmoNaut, thanks for that link to the Technics TT review. I'll check it out when I have a chance. [I forget to thank you earlier.]

Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #89 –
Sure.

I though I already conceded the point that I don't doubt that separate masters have been prepared for vinyl in order to address the issues you raised in recent times; especially if certain houses are requiring it.

...and I've seen well documented instances where vinyl was clearly pressed from dynamic master where the CD wasn't.  In the case of DRC, it seems these have been exceptions rather than the rule.

Can the same master used to press a CD be used to press vinyl?

Reply #90 –
Quote from: greynol on
... As you can see, I can also search the web for heresay. ;-P


Heresy? Hearsay?
Regards,
   Don Hills
"People hear what they see." - Doris Day