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Topic: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs (Read 48226 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #100
@shadowking, I tried the settings you suggested for WavPack, up to -b4.55x5s.5, and I still hear that hiss. Aggrrrhh! Since this sample sounds more like regular music than a proof of concept, I have a panic at the thought that other music could be compressed in such a low-quality way. So I suspend the use of the hybrid WavPack and hope that @bryant will be able to fix it.
• Join our efforts to make Helix MP3 encoder great again
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Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #101
@shadowking, I tried the settings you suggested for WavPack, up to -b4.55x5s.5, and I still hear that hiss. Aggrrrhh! Since this sample sounds more like regular music than a proof of concept, I have a panic at the thought that other music could be compressed in such a low-quality way. So I suspend the use of the hybrid WavPack and hope that @bryant will be able to fix it.

My hunch is that its not from a commercially mastered and sold redbook CD .
Even if its is real , No way to verify the sample hasn't been tampered like a EAC log etc.


Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #103
@shadowking, I tried the settings you suggested for WavPack, up to -b4.55x5s.5, and I still hear that hiss. Aggrrrhh! Since this sample sounds more like regular music than a proof of concept, I have a panic at the thought that other music could be compressed in such a low-quality way. So I suspend the use of the hybrid WavPack and hope that @bryant will be able to fix it.

You can try stronger shaping like s.8  . I also tried --blocksize=4410 and thought it helped a bit, maybe you can give feeback on  that .
Also I created a 32khz version of this sample and it helped a lot.  An option if you dont hear 16khz and higher in music.


Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #104
Adding -h makes a significant difference here 2 - 5 db less noise ;

wavpack -b4s.5x4ny codec*.wav

ave noise = -62.53 dB, peak noise = -47.29 dB
created CodecTest 16bit.wv in 1.22 secs (lossy, 309 kbps)


wavpack -b4s.5x4hny codec*.wav

ave noise = -64.24 dB, peak noise = -52.31 dB
created CodecTest 16bit.wv in 1.88 secs (lossy, 311 kbps)

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #105
@    Kraeved
Have you considered something like -b6hx4c   Without -s or any hacks.. 540k for 44/16 .
Filesize is similar to lossywav extreme while allowing recovery with .wvc

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #106
@shadowking, I do not use -x6, because it significantly increases the encoding time, and -h, because it requires more resources for decoding. Therefore, my attempts to improve the quality look like this: -b3x4, -b4x4, -b5x4, -b6x4, -b7x4. With -b6x4, there is a shadow of hiss, but still a noticeable shadow, which can be suppressed by adding -s.3 or -s.5. But what is -s really, why it's not there by default, what are the downsides? So only with -b7x4 I can breathe a sigh of relief.

But at this point WavPack loses its advantages in the lossy 44 kHz 16 bit segment (except for correction files feature) over FSLAC -3 (and even Vorbis -q 8, I believe). Alas, @C.R.Helmrich, its author, is still too lazy to bring this project to a brilliant finale with the implementation of 24-bit support and taking into account other shortcomings.
• Join our efforts to make Helix MP3 encoder great again
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Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #107
@Kraeved I can see that you have been very active for the past couple of days.
Don't get me wrong - I think you are making your life harder instead of enjoying the music.

Based on your signature, I can see that you are resampling everything to 44.1 kHz.
Most audio devices today have mixer configured to use 48 kHz. This can cause clipping because of resampling.

I want my files to be equally loud. Sometimes peaks can cause little bit of clipping.
Is it worth to reduce whole file by couple of dB when you can instead use limiter to fix small clippings?

There are many different decoders for lossy files. They can also cause clipping.

Why don't you simply use FLAC and be done with it?
gold plated toslink fan

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #108
@shadowking, I tried the settings you suggested for WavPack, up to -b4.55x5s.5, and I still hear that hiss. Aggrrrhh! Since this sample sounds more like regular music than a proof of concept, I have a panic at the thought that other music could be compressed in such a low-quality way. So I suspend the use of the hybrid WavPack and hope that @bryant will be able to fix it.

Hi @Kraeved,

Look at my ABX tests in this thread. I've managed to ABX Wavpack up to -b576x4s0.5
If you want peace of mind with wavpack lossy, 450k range is not enough for this sample.

As @shadowking said, this sample raises suspicion on how it is recorded/mastered so it could be artificialy created.
No one knows... I would say that this sample is good to "calibrate" other lossy encoders and listen how they work on this sample but
it shouldn't be of any concern in real life music IMO.

If you want really strong setting (and peace of mind) for wavpack lossy for this sample you need something like -b550hx4s0.5.
Anything lower is ABX-able (at least for me). for faster encoding you could try -b576hhs0.8 but this high bitrate defeats purpose of economical encoding to save space.
It's up to you which way you want to go.

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #109
@synclagz you are right (i proposed similar bitrate and settings) but I ended up on an alternative path for now.
I did a long abx session last night and after hearing the increased security that the heavy settings bring I went that way.
I wrote a similar post in the past about maximising quality without blowing bitrate. It works similar here too.
Higher -x and  -h levels = decreased motivation vs totally 100% transparent.   That became my new goal.

I arrived at two settings and its a quality 1st approach 'while keeping bitrate constrained ' to save space . Some speed is sacrificed if needed for both encoding and decoding (esp for encoding).  I don't see it as lowering quality to keep bitrate down (hopefully I succeeded to an extent in the goal)- but keep quality high and bitrate low as possible while :

a) decreasing likelyhood of finding problems
b) even if found its impact will hopefully be limited and harder to confirm for multiple listeners.
c) decrease chances of feeling need for higher bitrates & less efficiency. I want to save half or more lossless bitrate.

So the settings
1-   A behemoth heavy duty   -b384hhx6s.5  used with or without correction files.
2-   A fast encoding method with practically tiny impact on quality  -b384hhs.5c

The alternative -b metric is 4.35

I guess this could be adopted to the -h mode with -b400hx5-6s.5 or maybe a bit higher.

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #110
Hi @shadowking
Your approach is very good. 384k is reasonable bitrate.
I'll try to ABX this sample with your settings and see how it goes.
I suppose it should be very acceptable.

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #111
@shadowking, I do not use -x6, because it significantly increases the encoding time, and -h, because it requires more resources for decoding. Therefore, my attempts to improve the quality look like this: -b3x4, -b4x4, -b5x4, -b6x4, -b7x4. With -b6x4, there is a shadow of hiss, but still a noticeable shadow, which can be suppressed by adding -s.3 or -s.5. But what is -s really, why it's not there by default, what are the downsides? So only with -b7x4 I can breathe a sigh of relief.

But at this point WavPack loses its advantages in the lossy 44 kHz 16 bit segment (except for correction files feature) over FSLAC -3 (and even Vorbis -q 8, I believe). Alas, @C.R.Helmrich, its author, is still too lazy to bring this project to a brilliant finale with the implementation of 24-bit support and taking into account other shortcomings.

I have a suggestion that won't change bitrate and decoding speed.
Keep using -b4x3 .  For properly released commercial cd's issues are rare.
Create another preset:  -b4x5s.5 for artificial 'music', noises, samples from internet etc.

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #112
@shadowking, the official description of WavPack hybrid mode says:

Quote
The lossy mode employs no subband coding or psychoacoustic noise masking. Instead, it is based on variable quantization in the time domain combined with mild noise shaping. This mode can operate from bitrates as low as 2.22 bits per sample up to fully lossless and offers considerably more flexibility and performance than the similar, but much simpler, ADPCM. This makes the lossy mode ideal for high-quality audio encoding where the data storage or bandwidth requirements of the lossless mode might be prohibitive.

While analyzing this killer sample, the author comes to the following conclusion:

Quote
What would be better is 2nd-order noise shaping or even better would be a noise-shaper peaking at 15 kHz (neither of which WavPack supports). Another thing that would work would be simply detecting that the noise level was above the signal at audible frequencies and boosting the bitrate at that point (I think lossyWAV does something like that with this sample). These are all possible improvements to WavPack lossy that I wish I had time for.

Putting the first and second parts together, I realize that the built-in noise shaping is too simple at present and there are no other automatic tricks under the hood (like psychoacoustics of MP3, Vorbis and Musepack) to mask compression artifacts (-s#.# is a manual one). I believe that the discovered simplicity is a fundamental flaw, and not something that manifests itself only through artificial samples, so I shall wait for a fix. What a relief that WavPack continues to evolve.
• Join our efforts to make Helix MP3 encoder great again
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Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #113
I somewhat disagree here.  I think the simplcity does work as in joint stereo + simple fixed shaping works in >99% cases. Difference is always hiss. Even at 256k I would accept it for portable use with the s.5 . Hiss vs clicks I take hiss. I do agree that the default dns does add something more objectionable and improvements are welcome.
If you think there is a fundemental flaw not only in artificial it would be good to prove it via listening tests and some real music samples.

I don't consider psychoacoustics are working in mp3 here.   Going by this all V0 encodings are now garbage that need to be re encoded to V4 which ironically sounds better *only on this sample.* vs 25+ years of HA experience which tells otherwise.  So I would use median quality as an indicator rather than anomaly (clearly this sample seems to be that).

IMO this sample isn't music even electronic music doesn't sound exactly like this. I am not sure if its intentional or not.

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #114
If you think there is a fundemental flaw not only in artificial it would be good to prove it via listening tests and some real music samples.

Code: [Select]
$ wavpack --version
wavpack 5.7.0
libwavpack 5.7.0

$ wavpack -hx4m --threads=4 original.wav -o lullaby.lossless.wv
$ wavpack -b4x4 original.wav -o lullaby.lossy.wv
• Join our efforts to make Helix MP3 encoder great again
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Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #115
Interesting sample. There is massive HF energy from 16khz to 22.  Human vocals don't do this. I do hear a hum in background, Is it a synth no sure..
Why would a properly mastered recording have this  Do you have an artist / cd title ?

It seems to resolve around 400kbits or close to -b4.5..  also,  converting with replaygain  improves it.
I also tried to enable dither in the converter and it helps too.  Maybe the original was down scaled improperly?




Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #116
Interesting sample. There is massive HF energy from 16khz to 22.  Human vocals don't do this. I do hear a hum in background, Is it a synth no sure..
Why would a properly mastered recording have this ?
This looks exactly like 8-bit dither with high-shibata noise shaping:

X

Do you have an artist / cd title ?
Lullaby of Woe (The Witcher) ~ Ashley Serena

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GglL2SWccb0

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #117
The level is so low that the dither is heard,  How can that be  ?
Or, Is the vocal NOT meant to be heard (hidden) without  - amplified to a  level x100 ?

mp3 lame shows RG   +16.5 db    . Also lowpass needs to be high around 20khz .  If lowpass 17 or lower, horrid ringing is heard and RG is +21 db  !

So, What is this stuff ? This is certainly not professional cd audio.

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #118
So, What is this stuff ? This is certainly not professional cd audio.
Based on her page, she only releases on spotify and itunes, but the sample attached earlier is definitely not what was released on those platforms.

The level is so low that the dither is heard,  How can that be  ?
Or, Is the vocal NOT meant to be heard (hidden) without  - amplified to a  level x100 ?
It's 8-bit, so maybe it's not that surprising that the dither is heard, but yes, it looks like the level was additionally reduced by 8 dB before the conversion to 8-bits. On top of that it's the beginning of the song and it starts quiet.

In attachment 10 seconds from Spotify (free).

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #119
@shadowking think of it as a watermarked demo or a bootleg copy or a stream recording with effects added, so as not to lose sleep. The point is that the range from 16 to 20 kHz is not a wasteland and there might be a palpable energy in it that WavPack hybrid must be able to handle in a more intelligent way. After all, it's not for properly mastered CD audio only, right? For example, the energy in this sample reminds me of the noise (hiss to be precise) of an analogue medium like cassette tape.

Update.
If you want to get an MP3 file that sounds good enough here, use either LAME 3995o -Q1 or Helix without -HF flag.
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Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #120
lame 320 is not good.  abx 9/10 easy

I think WV 400 does it. I have a new appreciation for the normal mode & a lightweight -x4 using bitrate of 400k. The -s can be adjusted to a personal preference or left as is.   With the wvc its a nice combo.

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #121
@shadowking think of it as a watermarked demo or a bootleg copy or a stream recording with effects added, so as not to lose sleep. The point is that the range from 16 to 20 kHz is not a wasteland and there might be a palpable energy in it that WavPack hybrid must be able to handle in a more intelligent way. After all, it's not for properly mastered CD audio only, right? For example, the energy in this sample reminds me of the noise (hiss to be precise) of an analogue medium like cassette tape.

Your right. As a POC there can be room for improvement (esp below 400k).  It real life the 16+ khz region will never have so much energy so the risk is theoretical but practically tiny (at least when using a bitrate of 400k or more ).   

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #122
Lame 3995o vbr -q1 cannot be better than any 320cbr.   Helix is old, good yes but still mp3.
From 400k there's going to be way less WV cases (IMO) - even the 3.995o developer has that view.
However, below 400 I agree that a conventional codec like mp3 may be better.

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #123
The first interesting thing I noticed here is the lossy version is bigger than the lossless version; so obviously lossless is the way to encode this sample!! In fact, the noise seeming to cut in and out is the encoder switching back and forth from lossless to lossy to hold the desired bitrate. And because it is an 8-bit file (padded to 16-bit) even fiddling with the LSB (of eight) breaks the dither, which then becomes audible.

However, this is not a case of the WavPack DNS getting fooled. It is working exactly as intended staying pegged at 1.0 throughout, so -s1.0 makes an identical file, and -s0 makes the noise really audible. It’s just that full 1st-order isn’t steep enough.

I agree with shadowking here that samples like this don’t prove too much, especially since transform codecs have trouble with them too. Higher-order noise shaping would probably fix this, but another approach might simply be to detect the absurdity of the sample (the vast majority of the energy is above 14 kHz) and reject it or fall back to lossless.

I would even say that this sample poses a danger to delicate tweeters if played loudly enough, which is easy to do because you can’t hear how loud it is. To demonstrate that, I subtracted out the dither, transposed it down to the “audible” range (from 20 kHz to 7256 Hz), and remixed it back in (at the same level). This is what the sample would sound like to dogs!   :)

Re: Great killer sample, easy to ABX on most codecs

Reply #124
@bryant, can we assume that dither is used not only to mask quantization, but also for an artistic effect? Hissing and crackling are effects that I often hear in music. As comrade @danadam noted, in this case it seems 8-bit dither with noise-shaping of Shibata High profile was added. And there are more than a dozen other profiles that generate noise at HF range. I'm sad to think that hybrid mode will only handle basic dither (attached below) and choke on everything else.

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