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Topic: RMAA iriver vs Cowon (Read 25438 times) previous topic - next topic
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RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Actual owner of a Cowon D2, I'm probably going to change for a S9.

I was travelling the web to find if S9 is good or if there is a better SQ mp3 player, and i found this RMAA comparison:
http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons...,%20%20H340.htm

I found it very strange as Cowon is given to be one of the best sounding mp3players, but the frequency response graph seems to tell us another thing:
Iriver and Sansa clip have an excellent frequency response as Cowon has a very bad frequency response in low frequencies...
It start incredibly decreasing from 200Hz when the iriver and sansa clip one stay extremly stable...

Does this mean cowon is not as good as told ? Does iriver and sansa mp3 player have better BASS than the cowon player ?

Thanx for your lights !


RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #1 –
Actually what is happening is that the low impedance headphone (16 ohm) is interacting with the output capacitor to form a high pass filter.  The output of Cowon products is very good, but there is some interaction when you use very low impedance headphones.

Look at the graphs where there is no load or a higher impedance load.  The bass does not roll off so much or not at all.

http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Single_Play...hm%20(ER-6).htm
http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Single_Play...0Ohm%20Load.htm

All that being said, the bass rolloff is actually quite small in audible terms.  If you were to perform a volume matched comparison between the Cowon D2 and some other player (that does not roll off the bass with a 16 ohm headphone), you would find find the bass reduction may not be noticed with many types of music.  I know because I have done this test myself.

I would still buy a Cowon product.

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #2 –
Ok thanx for that anwser.
So what is the max impedance that a cowon player can accept (lets say, D2 / S9 / J3) ? And what is the starting value for good sounding ?

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #3 –
Quote from: takhama on
I found it very strange as Cowon is given to be one of the best sounding mp3players, but the frequency response graph seems to tell us another thing:
Iriver and Sansa clip have an excellent frequency response as Cowon has a very bad frequency response in low frequencies...
It start incredibly decreasing from 200Hz when the iriver and sansa clip one stay extremly stable...

Does this mean cowon is not as good as told ? Does iriver and sansa mp3 player have better BASS than the cowon player ?


Its an average player in terms of output (like pretty much all Cowon players).  Worse then the Sansas and Ipods on paper, but probably good enough that you're not going to notice the difference.

Quote
Actually what is happening is that the low impedance headphone (16 ohm) is interacting with the output capacitor to form a high pass filter. The output of Cowon products is very good, but there is some interaction when you use very low impedance headphones.

Look at the graphs where there is no load or a higher impedance load. The bass does not roll off so much or not at all.


So what you're saying is that the output is very good until you add headphones.  I'm sure thats a relief to those of us who don't care about audio

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #4 –
Quote from: saratoga on
So what you're saying is that the output is very good until you add headphones.  I'm sure thats a relief to those of us who don't care about audio


The bass rolloff is not all that drastic.

Quote
So what is the max impedance that a cowon player can accept (lets say, D2 / S9 / J3) ? And what is the starting value for good sounding ?


There is no maximum impedance.  You can basically use any headphones you want.  As for a starting value, I also say use any headphone you want.  Even for the 16 ohm headphone, the bass rolloff is not that bad in an audible sense.  The bass boost/reduction of most headphones is much more than the bass change from the Cowon.

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #5 –
Quote from: odigg on
Quote from: saratoga on
So what you're saying is that the output is very good until you add headphones.  I'm sure thats a relief to those of us who don't care about audio


The bass rolloff is not all that drastic.



Yes its probably pretty hard to ABX, but still I wouldn't call that "very good".  "very good" would be a relatively flat frequency response, particularly given that its quite easy to achieve with modern equipment.

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #6 –
Saratoga > Can you give me some trademarks or models of "very good" mp3 players ?

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #7 –
Quote from: takhama on
Saratoga > Can you give me some trademarks or models of "very good" mp3 players ?


The Clip, iPhone (to a lesser extent) in your first post.

Edit:  Honestly though I wouldn't get too worked up about a bit of bass dip.  These players have EQ.  You can correct it easily enough.

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #10 –
Quote from: greynol on
Just a friendly reminder, anything stated in terms of audible sound quality must be in compliance with TOS #8.


Absolutely agree with that, i just want an advice regarding the rmaa graphics: Can we objectively, regardng this, tell in a scientific way that clip is better than D2.
I'm looking here for scientific answers

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #11 –
Quote from: takhama on
Quote from: greynol on
Just a friendly reminder, anything stated in terms of audible sound quality must be in compliance with TOS #8.


Absolutely agree with that, i just want an advice regarding the rmaa graphics: Can we objectively, regardng this, tell in a scientific way that clip is better than D2.
I'm looking here for scientific answers


In so much as you believe that less accurate frequency response and higher distortion are undesirable yes, the Clip is better.  However, the differences aren't huge and may not be noticeable with actual music.

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #12 –
As a (apparently somewhat less impressed than is usual) clip+ owner I'd like to point out that there is more to the audio experience than the output measured or heard while playing music.  I'm talking about audible electrical interference on track change, on pause and when powering on or down and so on.  While it doesn't occur on the clip+ while playing audio (checked this with silent parts of tracks at high volume) it is present and very annoying at other times.  It's something like those cheap motherboards with integrated audio which squeak and pop when scrolling the mouse or putting any load on the system, though  at least on the clip+ it doesn't seem to happen while playing.  Because this kind of problem occurs outside of the time that people typically measure output it is infrequently remarked upon, but some players exhibit it very badly and others not at all and it can be very noticeable.  I'd suggest that if possible try and compare a few models before you buy.  I know if you buy in a bricks and mortar store you pay more than online but if it means the difference between a player that you'll love and one that will annoy you or disappoint you then perhaps that's worth a few pennies. 

For the record I previously owned a Sansa Fuze v2 and it had this issue but it was minimal and rarely drew my attention.  I also have an iRiver H140 and a H340, neither of which exhibits any such problem.  And then I have some nasty unbranded generic players which exhibit the problem even while playing.  In my (non significant/representative) experience the cheapest players with no name have been the worst while the most expensive players from a company with a reputation are the best, with Sansa somewhere in the middle....hmmm

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #13 –
Quote from: saratoga on
In so much as you believe that less accurate frequency response and higher distortion are undesirable yes, the Clip is better.  However, the differences aren't huge and may not be noticeable with actual music.


This brings me to my second question:
Why Cowon is not producing hardware with a flat frequency response ? It is very easy to do now, no ? And cowon reputation is based nearlyonly on sound quality....
Is there a cost reason, or technical reason or ... ?

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #14 –
Quote from: takhama on
Actual owner of a Cowon D2, I'm probably going to change for a S9.

I was traveling the web to find if S9 is good or if there is a better SQ mp3 player, and i found this RMAA comparison:
http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons...,%20%20H340.htm

I found it very strange as Cowon is given to be one of the best sounding mp3players, but the frequency response graph seems to tell us another thing:
Iriver and Sansa clip have an excellent frequency response as Cowon has a very bad frequency response in low frequencies...
It start incredibly decreasing from 200Hz when the iriver and sansa clip one stay extremely stable...

Does this mean cowon is not as good as told ? Does iriver and sansa mp3 player have better BASS than the cowon player ?


Here is an indication of the kind of frequency response differences that it takes to create an audible difference:

Frequency response matching requirements

Interpreting this chart may be difficult for many people who are not experienced audio technicians. It can be too hard to interpret properly even for many of them.

Some may be surprised when I say that this chart is not exactly about what kind of frequency response variations are audible. It is about how closely  you have to match frequency response so that there's no chance at all that the frequency response difference would be audible. The tolerances in the chart are about 3 times less than what the most sensitive listener can hear.

Secondly, the chart is based on the idea that a frequency response variation has a certain loss (or gain) a certain bandwidth and a certain center frequency. This is not exactly what we can easily see see with the Cowon RMAA measurements. What we see with the Cowan is a low frequency roll-off. 

The Cowan  LF roll-off we have measurements for is so small and so gentle that it is a stretch to talk about it as having a center frequency, and a bandwidth. But stretch we must, so stretch I will. I will grab a big fist of air and say that the Cowan has a loss of  2.5 dB at 20 Hz with a bandwidth of 1 octave. 

I look at the 1 octave curve on the ABX matching chart, run down to 20 Hz, and find that the matching tolerance is 4.5 dB. This means that 4.5 dB loss over a 1 octave wide band at 20 Hz  is too small to be heard no matter what. I check back and see that the Cowan has only 2.5 dB loss of approximately that kind, so I conclude that the Cowan is sonic ally "good enough".

If you're going to choose digital players based on *something rational*,  this minor low frequency roll off in the Cowan is *not* one of them. Base your choice on something else! Don't worry aobut this slight measurable difference at 20 Hz.

And, to back this up, look at the well-known Fletcher Munson Curves such as the ones posted at Fletcher Munson Curve

Notice that the threshold of hearing at 20 Hz is about 75 dB, which is a decent listening level. IOW, at average listening levels, even if there is any music at 20 Hz, it has to be fairly loud to for you to hear it at all. Also, the Fletcher Munson curves ignore masking, so they are very optimistic about what you can actually hear in music. Finally, almost all musical instruments stop producing acoustical output when you go below 32 Hz.
Most stop around 42 Hz, or much higher.  These are just more real world reasons not to worry about the minor bass roll off that you've seen measured for the Cowan.

Now, if someone hooked up some headphones up to a music player and found a few dB difference at 100 Hz and more below that, I'd say run, don't walk the other way.

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #15 –
Quote from: takhama on
Quote from: saratoga on
In so much as you believe that less accurate frequency response and higher distortion are undesirable yes, the Clip is better.  However, the differences aren't huge and may not be noticeable with actual music.


This brings me to my second question:
Why Cowon is not producing hardware with a flat frequency response ? It is very easy to do now, no ? And cowon reputation is based nearlyonly on sound quality....
Is there a cost reason, or technical reason or ... ?


One answer is that since it doesn't appear to matter sonically, they can do what ever they want to.

The parts that are used to reduce this minor loss at 20 Hz are relatively large on the scale of modern digital music players like the Clip, and may slightly detract from the reliability of the player, or make it more complex.

The big question is why worry?

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #16 –
Quote from: takhama on
This brings me to my second question:
Why Cowon is not producing hardware with a flat frequency response ? It is very easy to do now, no ? And cowon reputation is based nearlyonly on sound quality....
Is there a cost reason, or technical reason or ... ?


Every PMP has to find a balance between a number of factors such as battery life, maximum current and power output, controlling hiss with very sensitive headphones, etc.  Different circuit designs balance these factors in different ways and there are consequences to each.  One can design an amplifier section that measures brilliantly under any load, has gobs of power output, but with a battery life of 2 hours.

Look at the RMAA measurements for some different players loaded with the SE530 - http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons...an%20HM-801.htm

The Sansa Clip FR measures better than the Cowon J3, but the Cowon J3 does better in the other measurements.  Some of the differences can be explained by volume differences between devices (noted in the measurements) but we can't know how much without testing.

As has already been stated, The Cowon J3 and Clip+ may measure differently, but they are basically audibly the same.  I own a Clip+ now and would not hesitate to buy a Cowon product if I wanted video playback or something more fancy.

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #17 –
Quote from: takhama on
Why Cowon is not producing hardware with a flat frequency response ? It is very easy to do now, no ? And cowon reputation is based nearlyonly on sound quality....
Is there a cost reason, or technical reason or ... ?


Because theres no incentive for them to do so.  No one cares about these things, reviewers rarely if ever mention it, and the kind of people who buy based on reputation are the same people who have no interest in actual performance.

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #18 –
Quote from: odigg on
Every PMP has to find a balance between a number of factors such as battery life, maximum current and power output, controlling hiss with very sensitive headphones, etc.  Different circuit designs balance these factors in different ways and there are consequences to each.  O


While this is true, the problem with the Cowon players is  basically that they use capacitively coupled outputs with too small output capacitors.  So the trade off here is between "better frequency response" and "saving 6 cents on each player".  Probably though in the long term Cowon will go to directly coupled output like on the Clip since you don't need the capacitors and the output is better. 

Quote from: odigg on
The Sansa Clip FR measures better than the Cowon J3, but the Cowon J3 does better in the other measurements.  Some of the differences can be explained by volume differences between devices (noted in the measurements) but we can't know how much without testing.


Yeah those results don't show what you want them to because of the volume difference.

What you need to be doing is comparing like verses like:

http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons...0vs%20Clip+.htm

In which case the J3 isn't so great.

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #19 –
Owning a Cowon A3 and a Rockboxed Sansa Clip+ I can tell you that both have their areas where they shine and where they fail.
The A3 has no Problem driving High Impedance Headphones like some Beyer Dynamic DT-250, AKG K340 or AKG K501. But it starts to hiss and has bass roll off when you plug in some 16 Ohm Junk.
The Clip+ sounds very good with 16 Ohm Earbuds, but is very silent and has a trebble roll off with high impedance headphones.
So you have to decide what your usage will be: If you want to use you high quality headphones, then you better get the high priced Cowon. If you want to use your cheap earbuds, then get something like the Clip or Fuze. If you want to do both, then better get both.
WavPack 4.50.1 -hhx6 | LAME 3.98.2 -V 0

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #20 –
Quote from: saratoga on
In which case the J3 isn't so great.


Can we at least agree that there will *basically* be no audible difference between the Cowon J3/S9 and the Clip+ and the strengths of the Cowon products are primarily with features (e.g. bigger screen, video playback), etc?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend Cowon's decision of output circuit.  It would be great if they would update the same design for many years.  I'm merely trying to state that there is no reason to dismiss the Cowon S9/J3 based on measurements or some alleged sonic problems based on reading those measurements.

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #21 –
And to continue, can we tell that the sound quality of cowon's product is not as wonderfull as told by the fans (what would be a shame as the reputation is based onn this statement...) ?

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #22 –
Quote from: odigg on
Quote from: saratoga on
In which case the J3 isn't so great.


Can we at least agree that there will *basically* be no audible difference between the Cowon J3/S9 and the Clip+ and the strengths of the Cowon products are primarily with features (e.g. bigger screen, video playback), etc?


I agree that cowon's strength tends to be their software features, but I think concerns about audibility need to be addressed with double blind tests.  I do think that by playing with the EQ you could get perfectly good output though.

Mostly I'm just taking issues with remarks like these:

Quote
Cowon is given to be one of the best sounding mp3players



Quote
The output of Cowon products is very good


In reality Cowon players are not much better then any others.  They're average.  Which is fine since the average is pretty good these days.  But theres nothing all that special. 

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #23 –
Quote from: vpa on
The Clip+ sounds very good with 16 Ohm Earbuds, but is very silent and has a trebble roll off with high impedance headphones.
So you have to decide what your usage will be: If you want to use you high quality headphones, then you better get the high priced Cowon. If you want to use your cheap earbuds, then get something like the Clip or Fuze. If you want to do both, then better get both.


Yeah this isn't true at all.  The reason you get a bass roll off on the Cowon players is because they're capacitively coupled, so the output impedance varies with frequency.  The Clip is directly coupled, so the output impedance doesn't vary with frequency.  I guess it sort of makes intuitive sense if you're not familiar with amps that you might think "they've doing it the opposite way (direct vs. capacitive coupling) so "the high frequencies should roll off -- hey i think i heard that!".  But thats not right.  To get the high frequencies to roll off you'd need inductive coupling which really doesn't make any sense at all and has never been used in a portable audio player.  So high frequency roll off really doesn't make sense.

And if you take a look at the actual output, you will see that indeed, it does not occur:

http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons...%2048%20Ohm.htm

Which makes a lot of sense because you would not expect a huge amount of inductance in a couple mm of copper wire.

RMAA iriver vs Cowon

Reply #24 –
Quote from: takhama on
And to continue, can we tell that the sound quality of cowon's product is not as wonderfull as told by the fans (what would be a shame as the reputation is based onn this statement...) ?


The fans of every player (Sony, Iriver, Hifiman, Apple, Zune, Sansa, etc) gloat about the "sound quality" of their brand and how it sounds better than other brands.  For the most part all of them would probably sound very similar in a blind test.

So yes, don't listen to any placebo induced hype.