Skip to main content

Topic: Can you provide links for these studies please? (Read 2878 times) previous topic - next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
  • board
  • [*][*]
Re: Can you provide links for these studies please?
Reply #25
So, Arny, just to make sure we don't mix things up:
This is the link that eric.w linked to:
http://djcarlst.provide.net/abx_digi.htm

... which is, if I understand it correctly, what I was essentially asking for: an analogue tape with actual music vs. an A/D/A loop (in this case a delay line).
The one you linked to originally was the blind test between analogue tape generations:
http://djcarlst.provide.net/abx_tapg.htm

It seemed to me like your last post was about the analogue tape generations, rather than the analogue tape vs. an A/D/A loop.
Do you recall/know if the analogue tape vs. the A/D/A loop was with actual music?
I'll try e-mailing Carlstrom as well and see if he responds - then we know for sure (I'll update here if he responds) :-).
In any case, thanks for your help - it seems like my request has been fulfilled.
A very big thanks to eric.w for linking to this. It's actually a little bit funny: He linked to a site that I had known about for a couple of years and that Arny had already linked to, albeit a different page, but both of us had overlooked that specific page, ha ha ha :-)! Well, that's how it is sometimes.

I was a bit surprised that I found that Computer Audiophile article about ringing recently (which has a new link now, due to an update of the site: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/19347-audibility-of-digital-reconstruction-filters/ ), as I had searched for the same concern for a while before even starting this topic. I suppose I must have included some search terms that excluded that specific site.
  • Last Edit: 20 April, 2017, 05:02:06 PM by board
"What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"
- Christopher Hitchens
"It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge"
- Sam Harris

Re: Can you provide links for these studies please?
Reply #26
So, Arny, just to make sure we don't mix things up:
This is the link that eric.w linked to:
http://djcarlst.provide.net/abx_digi.htm

... which is, if I understand it correctly, what I was essentially asking for: an analogue tape with actual music vs. an A/D/A loop (in this case a delay line).

I missed that significant change. Mea Culpa.

Quote
The one you linked to originally was the blind test between analogue tape generations:
http://djcarlst.provide.net/abx_tapg.htm

It seemed to me like your last post was about the analogue tape generations, rather than the analogue tape vs. an A/D/A loop.

You are correct, which means that my post was in error. I'll try to do better. ;-)

Quote
Do you recall/know if the analogue tape vs. the A/D/A loop was with actual music?

For sure. I participated in it.  The analog tape sources were mixdowns that were thought to be among the best and most diagnostic work.  There was also some non-music listening. The source for that was the classic Keys Jangling test.

Quote
I'll try e-mailing Carlstrom as well and see if he responds - then we know for sure (I'll update here if he responds) :-).
In any case, thanks for your help - it seems like my request has been fulfilled.

Glad to hear that despite my screw-up, it all worked out in the end.

Quote
A very big thanks to eric.w for linking to this. It's actually a little bit funny: He linked to a site that I had known about for a couple of years and that Arny had already linked to, albeit a different page, but both of us had overlooked that specific page, ha ha ha :-)! Well, that's how it is sometimes.

I was a bit surprised that I found that Computer Audiophile article about ringing recently (which has a new link now, due to an update of the site: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/19347-audibility-of-digital-reconstruction-filters/ ), as I had searched for the same concern for a while before even starting this topic. I suppose I must have included some search terms that excluded that specific site.

That thread seems to lack any credible information about actual listening tests that any of the participants actually did. The following passage tells why:

example of www.computeraudiophile.com "objectivity" ;-(

"You 're at CA, not HA (hydrogenaudio), and are talkin' Greek to THIS crowd. So go to that place for your query ... and don't come back "

  • board
  • [*][*]
Re: Can you provide links for these studies please?
Reply #27
David Carlstrom already responded to my e-mail and also confirmed that actual music was used for this test, so mission accomplished! I caught a big fish, ajinfla!
Carlstrom also changed the content of the website a bit to show that music was used for this test, and he added what microphones were used, etc.
If anybody comes across any other tests at some point, they're welcome to add them, but otherwise we can consider the query solved.

As for the Computer Audiophile website, Arny, to me the first post seemed good and just what I was after in my original request. The reference to HA I saw as a joke, meaning they felt the topic was too technical. But maybe you were joking as well.
By the way, Arny, do you recall more or less what year the analogue tape vs. A/D/A test was?
I ask, as early converters are slammed by many, even people like Lipshitz and Vanderkooy, but lately I have started to think mastering has been a much bigger factor in why certain CDs from the 80s sound poor.

Again, thanks to everybody who added valuable info, and especially thanks to eric.w for posting the link that solved it all :-).
  • Last Edit: 22 April, 2017, 04:42:57 PM by board
"What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"
- Christopher Hitchens
"It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge"
- Sam Harris

Re: Can you provide links for these studies please?
Reply #28
By the way, Arny, do you recall more or less what year the analogue tape vs. A/D/A test was?

Good question. I can't remember the year, but I'm thinking it was this millenium.

You could find out by looking at  the web site ib various dates using the Wayback Machine. I do remember that Carlstrom posted his results shortly after he did the work.
Quote

I ask, as early converters are slammed by many, even people like Lipshitz and Vanderkooy,

What do you mean by early?

The delay line tests on Carlstrom's web site proved sonic  transparency  before the days of the CD -  This link says 1973: Ampex Delay Line Mention

Quote
lately I have started to think mastering has been a much bigger factor in why certain CDs from the 80s sound poor.

That has been my understanding all along because of my favorable experiences with the equipment of the day in the day.

For example, consider the sound quality of the early Telarc releases which are still considered to be good by many, and those were done with early, pre-CD  converters.



  • ajinfla
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Can you provide links for these studies please?
Reply #29
I caught a big fish, ajinfla!
Plenty more in the sea for your next "curiosity" expedition
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • board
  • [*][*]
Re: Can you provide links for these studies please?
Reply #30
Arny, "early" is of course not very precise, but personally I was thinking throughout the 80s. That's of course just an assumption. For various reasons I now believe mastering was more to blame when CDs sounded bad.
Although he also just says "in the early days", which could be the 1970s or the 1980s, the Lipshitz video is this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tjm2PBfivo
He does, however, mention "mid 80s" about using dithering.
A video with John Vanderkooy will probably also appear in the sidebar, where he expresses similar opinions about early converters not being very good (but again just "early").
Although this is more subjective, mastering engineer Bob Ludwig, who's also pro-digital, said that the early albums he mastered didn't sound great on CD, as early converters had an "industrial" sound. But I understand that this is mainly an anecdote.

In any case, this is not very important. We've now seen a good test that showed the transparancy of digital to back up what we already "knew" (assumed). Whatever the year, the test proved a point. I'm just not a fan of 80s CDs, and I had mostly believed mastering was to blame, but also partly the technology (converters). The only CD from the 80s I have truly liked the sound of, so far, is Michael Hedges "Aerial Boundaries", which doesn't sound harsh in any way. But then, I'm not a fan of 80s music at all, so I have only listened to around 30-40 80s CDs, but they almost all had that sound I didn't like. But again, that's probably more due to mastering than to conversion.
"What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"
- Christopher Hitchens
"It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge"
- Sam Harris

  • ajinfla
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Can you provide links for these studies please?
Reply #31
I now believe mastering was more to blame when CDs sounded bad.
A video with John Vanderkooy will probably also appear in the sidebar, where he expresses similar opinions about early converters not being very good (but again just "early").
Although this is more subjective, mastering engineer Bob Ludwig, who's also pro-digital, said that the early albums he mastered didn't sound great on CD, as early converters had an "industrial" sound. But I understand that this is mainly an anecdote.
And a way to navigate the boat around TOS...3rd party authority claims about "sounded bad". Wait, isn't that you in the first line?
Look Bob, that's still no justification for MQA, ok?
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • board
  • [*][*]
Re: Can you provide links for these studies please?
Reply #32
Arny, David Carlstrom responded to my e-mail, as I had asked him about the date of the test as well. He said March 1980! So maybe you and him are thinking about two different tests...?
In any case, as I said before, this is not very important, so don't wreck your brain over what test and what year.
As I also mentioned, I have moved more and more towards thinking that mastering must have been the culprit when I haven't liked 80s CDs, and Carlstrom's test just goes to show this, as it was a very early test, and other tests have done the same: A Steely Dan anecdote (yes, only an anecdote) about an A/B/C test between analogue and digital recordings and the band themselves playing along (1980s), the Lipshitz/Tiefenbrun example that eric.w linked to (1984), and probably others from the same era as well that I can't think of at the top of my head.
  • Last Edit: 25 April, 2017, 02:33:25 PM by board
"What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"
- Christopher Hitchens
"It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge"
- Sam Harris