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Topic: Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000 (Read 3305 times) previous topic - next topic
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Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000

Hi everyone! Long time reader but this is my first post. So I am trying to rip vinyl in 24/96 in Audacity. Before updating to Windows 11 I was able to accomplish this, but now I have run into an issue. I am positive my soundcard supports 24/96, yet when I plug the USB cord into my computer from the preamp, it now says the max quality it says it can record at is 16/48000Hz. This is under the "Line In USB Audio Codec" sound settings in Windows.           (I tried to post a picture but it will not let me)

Before updating to Windows 11 there were multiple options for 24 bit in this menu; I am wondering if anyone else has had similar issues and has a solution? I just checked the last vinyl rip I did before updating Windows and it plays at true 24/96. I have the project rate in Audacity set to 96000Hz and when I begin recording it says "actual sample rate: 48000Hz" (this is how I found this issue). The driver is updated and I have been searching all day for a solution. Any help/advice would be appreciated, thanks!!

Edit: when I change audio host from WASABI to DirectSound in Audacity it says it's recording at 96000Hz- I want to be sure it's TRULY 24/96 though. Based on the Windows line-in recording settings I am skeptical.

Re: Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000

Reply #1 –
Do you mean WASAPI? When I record from the line input, I set Audacity to MME, not WASAPI.

Re: Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000

Reply #2 –
Are you sure your hardware supports 24/96?   If you don't have the specs it can be hard to tell because the drivers try to automatically take-care of any conversions and Windows won't always tell you it's being up-sampled or down-sampled.      And sometimes the specs aren't exactly true because the drivers will make it work at any resolution.   This is done for compatibility...  i.e.  You can play a 24/192 file on any old soundcard, you can print a high-resolution photo on any old printer, or view high resolution video on any old display, etc.

WASAPI Exclusive Mode isn't supposed to change the sample rate and usually ASIO won't but you need an ASIO application and hardware with ASIO drivers.  (Audacity doesn't support ASIO.)   The bit-depth on the hardware is fixed so it can be up-sampled or down-sampled with WASAPI or ASIO.

By default, Audacity records in 32-bit floating-point and it uses floating point internally so it will up-sample the bit-depth from whatever it's getting from the hardware (when recording).


....There's nothing wrong with 24/96, except for larger files but you don't really need "high resolution" for analog vinyl  ;) In fact "CD quality" (16/44.1) is WAY better than vinyl, and generally better than human hearing, so it's usually good enough for anything.

  

Re: Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000

Reply #3 –
The only benefit you might get from recording vinyl at 24 bits is that you can set the recording level very low to ensure there will be no clipping during the recording, and then you can amplify the WAV to be closer to full scale after the fact. I've been bitten by using 16/44.1 to record vinyl, and I didn't set the recording level quite low enough, so the loudest track got clipped. Of course, the odds of hearing extra noise by using 16/44.1 at a low level and then amplifying later are low, too.

Re: Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000

Reply #4 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Are you sure your hardware supports 24/96?   If you don't have the specs it can be hard to tell because the drivers try to automatically take-care of any conversions and Windows won't always tell you it's being up-sampled or down-sampled.      And sometimes the specs aren't exactly true because the drivers will make it work at any resolution.   This is done for compatibility...  i.e.  You can play a 24/192 file on any old soundcard, you can print a high-resolution photo on any old printer, or view high resolution video on any old display, etc.

WASAPI Exclusive Mode isn't supposed to change the sample rate and usually ASIO won't but you need an ASIO application and hardware with ASIO drivers.  (Audacity doesn't support ASIO.)   The bit-depth on the hardware is fixed so it can be up-sampled or down-sampled with WASAPI or ASIO.

By default, Audacity records in 32-bit floating-point and it uses floating point internally so it will up-sample the bit-depth from whatever it's getting from the hardware (when recording).


....There's nothing wrong with 24/96, except for larger files but you don't really need "high resolution" for analog vinyl  ;) In fact "CD quality" (16/44.1) is WAY better than vinyl, and generally better than human hearing, so it's usually good enough for anything.

  

Thanks for the responses everyone, that is very helpful! I do know my computer's soundcard (I assume this is what you meant by hardware) can support 24 bit. When I set the recording input to "Stereo Mix" Realtek(R) Audio under sound settings it gives an option for 24/48 option so perhaps that's the limit and why WASAPI shows "actual rate 48" when recording? I'm not as concerned with the 96KHz, I'd just prefer it to have 24 bit.

Also when you said that Audacity automatically up-samples the bit depth from the hardware, does this mean I'm not necessarily getting true 24 bit if I export it from Audacity as a 24 bit file? Please forgive if I'm not completely understanding, I've been ripping vinyl for years at 16/44.1 so worst case I'll just continue doing that. It's a new system so I just want to get the most out of it, but also be sure it's actually the same quality it says it is so I'm not just wasting space. Thanks!

Re: Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000

Reply #5 –
You'd have to check the specifications of your motherboard/sound card to see what it supports so that you can tell if Windows is reporting the real values.

IIRC there's no such thing as "true" 24-bit audio, because 24 bits is more resolution than any hardware can provide. In other words, 24 bits is so precise that the electrical noise generated by the components in your PC is louder than the 24-bit noise floor, so you only actually get 20-22 bits of real information, and the rest is just noise generated by the electronics in your PC.

There is no reason to store audio that you plan to listen to in high resolution. The only purpose of 24-bit audio and higher sampling rates is to minimise the accumulation of error when you're making tons of edits during the mixing and mastering stages. Once the file is done and ready to be listened to, 16/48 (or 16/44.1 if you want CD compatibility) is more than you'll ever need. Even if you downscale from 24 to 16 bits without dither, you'd be very unlikely to hear any distortion unless you cheat by raising the volume during a fade out. Using dither is the "correct" approach, so you might as well do it, but it doesn't actually make a massive difference in the real world.

Re: Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000

Reply #6 –
Quote
Also when you said that Audacity automatically up-samples the bit depth from the hardware, does this mean I'm not necessarily getting true 24 bit if I export it from Audacity as a 24 bit file?
With the default settings Audacity will actually up-sample to 32-bit floating-point and it uses 32-bit floating-point internally.    Converting back to 24-bit integer when you export is a lossless process.   There are "technical advantages" of using floating-point for digital signal processing.

Technically, to be "perfectly lossless" you couldn't use any processing because by-definition ANY any change is not "bit-perfect".   Even volume adjustments (about the simplest processing you can do) usually involve some rounding (or loss of resolution) so they are not mathematically perfectly-reversible.  But these "errors" are very-tiny, and audio pros don't worry about it,   And usually you're doing something to improve the sound so you want to make a change.

Also by default, Audacity will dither.   You're "supposed to" dither whenever you down-sample, and since you're not down-sampling you can turn it off.   Dither is added noise which is supposed to sound better than quantization noise. 

But back here in the real world, under normal conditions you can't hear dither, the effects of dither, or the lack of dither at 16-bits or better, and certainly not at 24 bits so it's not a big deal one way or the other.   (You CAN hear quantization noise at 8-bits.)   On top of that, the analog vinyl noise (which you can hear) is worse than quantization noise or dither, so adding a tiny-amount of dither won't make any difference.   In fact, most recordings from an analog source or with a microphone have more noise than any added dither.



Re: Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Aleron Ives on
The only benefit you might get from recording vinyl at 24 bits is that you can set the recording level very low to ensure there will be no clipping during the recording, and then you can amplify the WAV to be closer to full scale after the fact. I've been bitten by using 16/44.1 to record vinyl, and I didn't set the recording level quite low enough, so the loudest track got clipped. Of course, the odds of hearing extra noise by using 16/44.1 at a low level and then amplifying later are low, too.
24 bits gives you an additional 48 dB. Well that depends on whether your input will record the bottom few or drown them in noise.
Question: Does that depend on whether the MSBs are populated? I.e.: if a sound card offers an actual 20 bit dynamic range, could it then offer that as "bits 4 to 23 if bits 1 to 3 are silent" and the overall voltage is then lower?

Also, I take it that the typical vinyl rip rig delivers a phono-preamped signal to the sound card - maybe not the full 2V? But are there other solutions around?
* A phono preamp will typically offer forty-something dB gain. Closing in on the additional eight bits.
* Moving coil: sixty dB.
* And then there is the RIAA eq: treble up 20 dB, bass down 20 dB - do the vinyl rip solutions have a RIAA hw circuit or is it done in software?
But doesn't all this mean that a carelessly set input might easily be forty dB off and could at worst be another forty?

Re: Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000

Reply #8 –
There are two topics.
[1] The codec's format capabilities and Windows compatibility. I myself have zero issue, but someone has a similar doubt. I don't know as I am using Windows 10, but just a reference:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/windows-10-11-sample-rate-limitation-for-motherboard-audio.35634/

[2] Whether higher bit-depth or sample rate is better or not.

I don't buy enthusiast / gamer grade motherboards (e.g. > $200) and most often I buy sub $100 boards so I don't know how the highest grade Realtek chips performs,  but the Realtek codecs I have on these boards and /or any additional circuitry don't have full 2Vrms capability. Sending 2Vrms signal to the line-in will induce clipping and lowering the input fader in Windows cannot prevent it to happen. In such a case, a cheap passive attenuator may help.

On the other hand, if the input is too quiet, noise could be a real issue. The Realtek chips I have used usually have better output specs (e.g. > 105dB dynamic range) than the inputs (e.g. < 100dB). Usually 24-bit recording may help a bit (literally), but not much more.

Re: Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000

Reply #9 –
You are all talking about the soundcard's capabilities here, but in the initial post @PRB108 writes that they use a USB connection and that Windows lists it as "Line In USB Audio Codec".

That is not the computer's soundcard. Recording via the USB interface bypasses the soundcard and uses the preamp's integrated audio interface (soundcard) instead, that comes with it's own capabilities.

It looks to me like the computer's soundcard can record at 24 bit / 96 kHz, but the preamp's USB interface supports only 16 bit / 48 kHz.

Re: Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000

Reply #10 –
*facepalm*

Actually I have similar doubt in my reply in the link I posted:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/windows-10-11-sample-rate-limitation-for-motherboard-audio.35634/post-1245187
Quote
I see. You get higher sample rates on a Windows 7 desktop but not on a Windows 11 notebook. Could it be the notebook codec itself only supports up to 48k?
However in this HA thread, the replies from others confused me.

Re: Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000

Reply #11 –
Almost all modern ADCs use sigma-delta converts, unless there has been something new that I've missed. These converts have many advantages over the original types but there may be companies producing boutique converters that are far less accurate. The actual sampling of the input analogue signal is in the megahertz range, about 2.5MHz MINIMUM if I remember correctly, and frequently much higher. Decimation filters then produce the exceedingly lower sample rate, such as 44 or 96 kilohertz that the user desires.

Re: Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000

Reply #12 –
Quote from: AndyH-ha on
Almost all modern ADCs use sigma-delta converts, unless there has been something new that I've missed.
Sure and I mentioned this before:
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,122179.msg1011810.html#msg1011810

But in the context of my linked ASR thread:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/windows-10-11-sample-rate-limitation-for-motherboard-audio.35634/
Quote
I can hold a digital watch to the microphone and see the 32,767 Hz peak from the quartz crystal oscillator of the watch.
The OP wanted to capture a 32767Hz signal, and the minimum required recording sample rate is 88.2 or 96kHz.

Also, the OP in this HA thread only cares about bit-depth, not sample rate. The USB phono preamp should have a reasonably calibrated analog level when going into the ADC stage. In this case, 16-bit recording is not an issue.

Re: Recording vinyl 24 bit - Windows 11 maxes at 16/48000

Reply #13 –
Quote from: enzo on
You are all talking about the soundcard's capabilities here, but in the initial post @PRB108 writes that they use a USB connection and that Windows lists it as "Line In USB Audio Codec".

That is not the computer's soundcard. Recording via the USB interface bypasses the soundcard and uses the preamp's integrated audio interface (soundcard) instead, that comes with it's own capabilities.

It looks to me like the computer's soundcard can record at 24 bit / 96 kHz, but the preamp's USB interface supports only 16 bit / 48 kHz.

This is the indeed the issue, I just checked the specs on my preamp (Rega Fono Mini A2D) and it is indeed limited to 16/48 when recording through the USB output! Apologies for the obvious oversight, I just assumed that a well regarded $200 Rega preamp could record at 24 bit. The responses have been extremely helpful though, I appreciate everyone's time!

Final question/advice: does anyone have any recommendations for a usb preamp, or even a turntable with an integrated usb preamp to record at 24 bit? The pricing is surprisingly similar between some Rega and AT usb turntables and hi-res usb preamps.
I just wanted to throw it out there to see if it would be worth upgrading. It feels like yesterday that I upgraded to my current setup, but it has actually been 5 years. Or should I just stick with my current setup (this seems to be the general consensus).      
Any final thoughts/advice are much appreciated. Thanks again!