Skip to main content ↑ ↓

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: Exotic tags (Read 17926 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Exotic tags

Reply #25 –
Now more seriously, why do you think tags were invented ? That's for adding meta information that people would like to know to recognise and organise their files.

It works because there are standards (foobar is an exception, most people use application with tag names that are standard). It makes them interoperable. Now if you hate the rest of the world for liking standards and working together, I can't do anything for you.

(you wouldn't be browsing this website if there was not a standard like HTML that makes you put all kind of shit in your files, but you have to use some standard ones to make it worth)

Exotic tags

Reply #27 –
Quote
Quote
If the user misspells the tag name, then they also most likely misspelled the tag value.

Forcing a standard tag naming system will not magically make all audio files from various sources tagged the same way.
Different people will do things differently
They will spell things differently, they will think differently, they will tag differently.



Alright, Official Matroska Tag B0rker, alright. Now I clearly understand the power of letting people write wrong stuff instead of good one in files. Thanks for enlighting me ! I hope they will also add many custom EBML elements in their file, it's so much fun !!!

BTW, do you know an application that can write things randomly on a HD ? I would like to edit my harddrive content and put some texts here and there. This is my right as a user and no application should stop me from doing it. (I hope foobar can do it)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=232064"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm sure a foobar2k plugin could be developed to do all that.

Custom EBML elements are not the same as custom tag string names.
For example, two simple tags
0x49C1 "The last french fry on earth is eaten"
0x458C "French Fries, Fast Food, Earth, Food"

now,

"Subject" "The last french fry on earth is eaten"
"Keywords" "French Fries, Fast Food, Earth, Food"

which would a normal human be able to decode meaning from first?

Edit: Opps, I missspelled eaten. Do I get thrown in the tag jail now?

Exotic tags

Reply #28 –
Quote
You can't standardize tags, because you can't standardize words, because you can't standardize thoughts.

HTML is a machine language. Tags are for natural languages.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=232067"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Right on the point.

Now I must go finish building the subspace beacon to signal the Borg we are ready for assimilation and need standardized thoughts. 

Exotic tags

Reply #29 –
Quote
Now more seriously, why do you think tags were invented ? That's for adding meta information that people would like to know to recognise and organise their files.

It works because there are standards (foobar is an exception, most people use application with tag names that are standard). It makes them interoperable. Now if you hate the rest of the world for liking standards and working together, I can't do anything for you.

(you wouldn't be browsing this website if there was not a standard like HTML that makes you put all kind of shit in your files, but you have to use some standard ones to make it worth)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=232065"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There are many other programs besides foobar2k that let the user enter their own tags. TCMP for example. The APEv2 and Ogg tagging system both encourage custom tags.

OT: Call me a geek, but I love the HTML syntax, simple HTML can easily be rendered in your head.

Exotic tags

Reply #30 –
When I was part way through the first post on this thread I thought to myself, "Why not just show the non-standard tags with a different background color?  The next few posts gave reference to color coding, which quickly dropped off.  However it is not clear to me why that is.

Is there an issue with letting the user know that they are using a non-standard tag by use of color, asterisk, or some other mark?

Exotic tags

Reply #31 –
Because whoever would have to implement that is just too lazy. It is like 'why does no one delete all source code related to OGM'...

Exotic tags

Reply #32 –
Quote
So you assume you never make typo errors ? Didn't think about robots as users up to now...

And yes, that would of course be optional like : enforce / check / any tags
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=231354"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Typos are easy to spot in foobar2000 because you can select all files in your playlist and  view their properties collectively. Voilà, a list of field names, with the typos sticking out like sore thumbs.

Exotic tags

Reply #33 –
Quote
Quote
So you assume you never make typo errors ? Didn't think about robots as users up to now...

And yes, that would of course be optional like : enforce / check / any tags
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=231354"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Typos are easy to spot in foobar2000 because you can select all files in your playlist and  view their properties collectively. Voilà, a list of field names, with the typos sticking out like sore thumbs.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=232101"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Probably easy, but not automatic. After all, it's generally not superior features that make a methodology/container format/whatever a success, it's superior tool support.

In that aspect foobar2000 is currently much like a text editor: it does not force you to follow certain rules, but it doesn't help you with that either.

On a more technical note, I'd propose a tag_checker service similiar to tag_writer/tag_reader that checks tag names and values with respect to a certain tagging format. The tag_checker should report its findings to the caller, which can then take appropriate action, for example present a list of messages to the user in case of a manual check of existing tags, or mark faulty tags in an editor.
It would be useful to have different severity levels for tag_checker messages, like critical errors and warnings. A critical error could be the presence of character in the tag name or value, that can not be stored by the tagging format. It could also be useful to check other tagging formats than just the one used for the current file, for example to avoid problems when transcoding for use on a portable player.

Exotic tags

Reply #34 –
Quote
Now more seriously, why do you think tags were invented ? That's for adding meta information that people would like to know to recognise and organise their files.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=232065"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Several points, and then I'm finished with this conversation. I'm gonna make them as simple as possible because when I try and describe them, my point seems to be wasted.

1. Allowing arbitrary tags does not dilute the efficacy of standard tags in the slightest. If someone cares for interoperability, they will use standard tags.

2. Differentiating between "recommended" and non-"recommended" tags serves no useful purpose other than to add another asinine special case to code in. If someone is concerned about using proper, recommended tags, they can look into it. The status quo works and works excellently.

3. The point of metadata is to convey information first and foremost. Even with an arbitrary tag, you can browse it with an arbitrary tag reader and glean its information.

4. Finally, what Matroska is trying to do is add more meaning to the many tag fields, correct? (not from the spec, but as an example "VERSION" could be intended to represent information regarding alternate playings, remixes, different cuts, or whathaveyou)

Here are the problems I have with #4.

a. If the field name is not descriptive enough to be understood without referencing some semantics table, I won't use it anyhow and I'd suspect a majority of foobar users feel the same way.

b. Guruboolez's example tag information is utterly irrelevant to me. I would rather not have a specification bogged down with information like that . Yet they seem important to him.

On top of that, if he's got beefs with the spec, I'd imagine that there are many other people who will have some area of metadata not covered by the official Matroska specification. So, we're left with two choices: pander to every single possible need or force users to use exotic tags if they want their data added.

I use that example with deepest regards to Guruboolez, BTW.  I mean no offense, just using you as a handy example.

[Edit] One more point I just thought of: the foobar2000 user base is probably one of the most technically savvy user bases around. There seem to be two sides to this argument: Matroska devs and fb2k users.

Matroska will need the support of the technically savvy crowd to gain acceptance. Alienating this group by ignoring its suggestions and instead forging ahead isn't going to gain any support. Instead, if I couldn't make a solid enough point for us to accept it, I'd start wondering if my design decisions were proper or not.

Exotic tags

Reply #35 –
Self-explanatory tag names...

OK, we definitely don't live on the same planet. On mine most of the people don't speak english and I don't plan to force them to learn english to be able to tag their files. If you can't understand why the UI should hide this to the user, you can't understand why custom tag should not be the main rule, but only the rule when NO tag exist.

edit: typo

Exotic tags

Reply #36 –
The tags are a quite tricky point I think. There should simply be a set of recommended, normalised tags with the explanation of their meaning, what they intend to be used for. Some examples for some medias, contents would be nice.
But these tags should not be mandatory. If a developper doesn't want to allow users to use unofficial tags, that's his choice and so is the opposite.
[edit:]removed some duplicate words and corrected some vocabulary errors
Stupidity is root of all evil.

Exotic tags

Reply #37 –
I guess I have to take alexnoe's answer as he is the only one that made one to my question.  Sad.

Otherwise there seems to be an issue with agreeing on the purpose and use of general computerized meta-data systems.  It has always been my view that metadata systems are supposed to organize data in a way that an application can automatically glean common attributes for a data set.  IE, the the application knows about an attribute whats to find out the value of that attribute from from a file or set of files.

The mime-type of files is one example.  The attribute would be "mime-type".  If an application wants to list files of a particular value of a mime-type, for example "audio/x-matroska", it requests through the API the value of the attribute "mime-type" for the file.  If that value doesn't match "audio/x-matroska", then its not the right type of file.  Conversely, if the mime-type is stored in the attribute "mime_type" then it also won't have an attribute matching the value being looked for.  So, its not just the value of the attribute that matters, but also how that attribute is stored.

In Matroska we don't care THAT much how the attribute is stored, just that its always stored the same so that the data can always be found.  Originally the tags in Matroska were stored under numbered names, like [A7 5C], however this required large lookup tables in every app that wanted to used the tags.  That is why this new system was developed. 

When a user wants to store the composer to a song, it should be stored under the attribute "COMPOSER". Any tagging application could then disaply "COMPOSER: Bach".  If the application displaying the information is well written, then it would actually understand the information and display it as maybe "Composer: Bach", "Song Writer: Bach", or "Compositeur: Bach".  However if you stored the composer under the attribute "COMPOSITEUR", then an application could never be expected to find or automatically change the way that attribute is displayed.

When someone releases a song on the internet, they want it to be readily apparent who wrote that song.  To do that they would want to store the writer's information in whatever form it is supposed to be in so that the information will be displayed whenever a person wants to display the writers to songs.  They also want that song to come up whenever someone looks for songs written by them.

I'm not opposed to people using custom tags, just that people should be aware if they are using a tag that is not required to be recognized.

Exotic tags

Reply #38 –
Quote
I'm not opposed to people using custom tags, just that people should be aware if they are using a tag that is not required to be recognized.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=232218"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think too that it should be the way to go. But even the 'required' cannot be enforced, it should be advised of course. To follow your mime type example, an application can ignore mime type, and simply download a file using a standard binary method. Of course that can produce a bad side effect but that's still possible.
Stupidity is root of all evil.

Exotic tags

Reply #39 –
Quote
I guess I have to take alexnoe's answer as he is the only one that made one to my question.  Sad.
<snip>
I'm not opposed to people using custom tags, just that people should be aware if they are using a tag that is not required to be recognized.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=232218"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I not only answered this question (long before alexnoe did, yes, even long before you even asked), but I also suggested one possible solution to the problem. Too bad that you didn't read it.  Sad.
A riddle is a short sword attached to the next 2000 years.

Exotic tags

Reply #40 –
Quote
I not only answered this question
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=232252"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ummm.... No you didn't.  I asked it there was anything wrong with displaying non-standard tags differently.  You said that there was nothing wrong with not writing the tags.  Its completely different. 

Exotic tags

Reply #41 –
Quote
Self-explanatory tag names...

OK, we definitely don't live on the same planet. On mine most of the people don't speak english and I don't plan to force them to learn english to be able to tag their files. If you can't understand why the UI should hide this to the user, you can't understand why custom tag should not be the main rule, but only the rule when NO tag exist.

edit: typo
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=232160"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We do live on the same planet, though, and sometimes, people have difficulties understanding what other people are thinking.

People on this planet tend to disagree with one another, too. If you say something *should* be the way you want it to be, chances are high that another person would say it *musn't* be like that.

So there. I have a different opinion on non-standard tags. Nothing can be rigidly standard. So why not make everything loosly standard?

Exotic tags

Reply #42 –
After attempting to re-reading this thread (I gave up), I've made a startling  observation - "everyone"    agrees that a minimum set of standard tags (call it a common superset) that satisfies most users and genres would be worthwhile.
This would not only allow easier communication between users of standard info, but would also free the application developers from trying to remap basic tags (TRACK, TRACKNUMBER, TRACK NUMBER) in their code. This would leave more time for more fruitful development - better front-ends, GUIs, features.
"There is no point in saving WAV... unless you have a huge HD in a very slow computer" - Jan S. (WAV or FLAC, Space No Problem)

Exotic tags

Reply #43 –
Quote
OK, we definitely don't live on the same planet. On mine most of the people don't speak english and I don't plan to force them to learn english to be able to tag their files. If you can't understand why the UI should hide this to the user, you can't understand why custom tag should not be the main rule, but only the rule when NO tag exist.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=232160"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


*coughs* So, instead of letting them use and tag their files in their language (as fb2k allows, albeit requiring that you invest a fair amount of work in it), you demand they use and tag them in English?

Sure, you can add some "semantic look-up table" or whatever to that, but if you're going look the term up anyhow because it's not in your language, what's easier? Referring one word to a dictionary or searching for some obscure table that may or may not describe the tag in your language?

Exotic tags

Reply #44 –
Apparently noone understands that enforcing the valid tags when they exist doesn't mean you can't use your own if you want...

Quote
Referring one word to a dictionary or searching for some obscure table that may or may not describe the tag in your language?


It happens everyday in Linux where people don't speak english with gettext. That's what I plan to add to libmatroska for official tags.

Exotic tags

Reply #46 –
Quote
Apparently noone understands that enforcing the valid tags when they exist doesn't mean you can't use your own if you want...

Sir, I understand that, Sir!

Just try and come up with a good idea on how to do the actual enforcing. Turning the tag display window into a rainbow is most definitely not an option, since a) it's hardly needed for some of the other formats and b) some people use 3rd party info box components.

Exotic tags

Reply #47 –
Weird idea: an option in the matroska component to choose which tags to read/write. The choices can be official only/official and <list of custom tags>/all. Tags not set in this option can either be ignored, stored in the database only or removed.

Exotic tags

Reply #48 –
Quote
And do you realize that you can't have much authority on which tags are valid?
That is a particularly amusing statement given the context that it is being said to the person that is in charge of the specification in question.

Really its not asking much for people to use a lookup table.  What did people do for years with ID3?  Most people speaking Euro languages seem to recognize things quickly.  I have no idea how people speaking Asian languages did it, but they certainly survived.

Exotic tags

Reply #49 –
Quote
Quote
And do you realize that you can't have much authority on which tags are valid?
That is a particularly amusing statement given the context that it is being said to the person that is in charge of the specification in question.

Really its not asking much for people to use a lookup table.  What did people do for years with ID3?  Most people speaking Euro languages seem to recognize things quickly.  I have no idea how people speaking Asian languages did it, but they certainly survived.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=232780"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

By "you," I didn't mean "person called robUx4," but instead,  "somebody." The specification itself can't have much authority on which tags are valid.