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Topic: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music (Read 11395 times) previous topic - next topic
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Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

I've been getting complaints about too much noise from my open Sennheisers. So for some moments in the day, I'd like a closed headphone. I mainly listen to classical instrumental music. Sometimes metal. Will also be used to watch movies, but quality isn't that important there.

Requirements: good isolation (leaking sound, don't care much about surrounding noise) and good sound. Now I'm sure I'm asking the impossible but for me apart from good quality sound for my classical music listening, I really like a wide soundstage with excellent positioning of the instruments. I never have used a closed headphone before, but I'm told this is exactly their weak point. Still, some should be better than others at it.

Therefor I'd like to call upon your help and experience. Which closed headphones still have a really good soundstage? I'd like to spend no more than 350 $, which is the equivalent of a Sennheiser HD650 or a Beyerdynamic T70 over here. Is there some measurable parameter that I can look for in reviews that represents this wide soundstage and separation?

On head-fi I found some people who are very enthusiastic about the Beyerdynamic DT660, which they rate even above headphones far more expensive, for classical music. Other models I'm looking at are the classics Sennheiser HD280pro and Sony MDR7506, the AKG 550 MK1 or 2, the Panasonic RP-HD10E and Beyerdynamic T70. I will consider other brands as well such as Audio Technica ATH-M50x or ATH-MSR7BK but these I know very little about (all my headphones sofar were Sennheisers, Beyerdynamics or Sony's, so I have a little bit of an idea what to expect from these - I hope  :-[  )

Feel free to suggest any model or any brand as long as they fit the bill according to your experience. Thanks very much for helping me out and saving the family peace over here  :))

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #1 –
Hello,
I think you should try the headphones before you buy, but if you can not buy them where you can send them back ...

Then if you "really like a wide soundstage with excellent positioning of the instruments," I advise you to use a crossfeed, for example bs2b.

sorry for my "google translate" english.
Music is my first love.

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #2 –
If you need some good isolation, I suggest a IEM.
The Etymotic ER4P offers 35-42 dB isolation.
I use it for listening to classical while commuting by train.
http://etymoticdirect.co.uk/earphones/etymotic-er4pt-earphones
TheWellTemperedComputer.com

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #3 –
I never considered IEMs. Do they sound as good as full sized headphones these days?

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Roseval on
The Etymotic ER4P offers 35-42 dB isolation.
Seennheiser also promises 32 dB isolation for HD 280 and HD 380

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #5 –
I was looking for good closed headphones for office use - I didn't wanna hear my co-workers, and also I wanted my co-workers not to hear my music (that happened with the noise-cancelling Audio-Technica ATH-ANC7 that I used before).

I ended up getting an NAD HP-50. I doesn't sound like closed headphone at all. You know that "can" sound that they all have. This one doesn't. Also they are really good at not making everything sound like it's coming from inside you head, probably what you mean by wide soundstage.

Check them out, I have them for like 2 years now and still enjoy them everyday.
Blubb

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #6 –
You shouldn't need super-isolation for your situation...  Just regular closed headphones.   

I've got a pair of Sennheiser HD 280s that I use when I want isolation.    They sound "just fine", although I prefer the sound of my open Grados.

The soundstage illusion is tricky...     Personally, I don't hear a soundstage at all with any headphones.  I here most of the sound coming from somewhere my forehead, and I can hear hard-panned left & right sounds coming directly from the drivers right near my ears...  To me "headphones sound like headphones" and it's just a different experience than listening to speakers.

I don't know of any spec that determines soundstage and I suspect some people will get a better soundstage with 'headphone-A' and other listeners will get a better soundstage with 'headphone-B'.

I agree with what Melomane says.    Go to the audio/video store and listen.    Different people have different tastes and different preferences (and the specs are nearly useless) so it's best to listen and choose for yourself.   And, take some of your music with you.   And, maybe take your current headphones so you can A/B.

And, the crossfeed suggestion is good too.     Crossfeed (slightly-blending the left & right channels) should reduce that in-your-ear effect with hard-panned sounds.   (You probably don't get much of that with classical).    There are headphone preamps with blend controls and/or you can use software (if you are playing music on a computer).   There is a crossfeed plug-in for foobar2000 so it won't cost you anything.    (Don't confuse crossfeed with crossfade. ;) )     

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #7 –
Thanks all for those good tips and information! No hifi stores here I'm afraid, apart from typical department store type shops. You can find only the 'usual suspects' of cheap/hyped headphones there like Beats and have to blind order others. Listening to them is only on their chosen music, always pop, and in a lousy surrounding. So I'm stuck with internet stores. I can return stuff to those, but not too often, so I'd like a preselection beforehand.

I read up on many reviews, often contradictory, but good enough to get an idea on possible issues. Like the DT770 being too bass heavy for classical (although classical music also needs bass). I'll do some more research on IEM's.

Anything bad about the headphones I listed? That would allow me to start reducing the numbers to choose from. I'm not that picky atm because it won't be my main headphones, just a set to 'get by' (but with as good a quality as I can find) on particular times of the day.

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #8 –
Something I noticed reading Amazon reviews: the older reviews, from 2010 or so are more positive than new ones. New ones complain a lot about build quality and sometimes about sound quality. Moving production in recent years to low cost countries is no doubt an issue to keep in mind when reading reviews that are older.

There are quite a few complaints about a chemical stench emanating from headphones, that won't go away even after airing them for a few days. The AKG K550 and Beyerdynamic got some of those remarks. What is your experience with recently purchased headphones?

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #9 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
You shouldn't need super-isolation for your situation...  Just regular closed headphones.   

I've got a pair of Sennheiser HD 280s that I use when I want isolation.    They sound "just fine", although I prefer the sound of my open Grados.

The soundstage illusion is tricky...     Personally, I don't hear a soundstage at all with any headphones.  I here most of the sound coming from somewhere my forehead, and I can hear hard-panned left & right sounds coming directly from the drivers right near my ears...  To me "headphones sound like headphones" and it's just a different experience than listening to speakers.
...
And, the crossfeed suggestion is good too.     Crossfeed (slightly-blending the left & right channels) should reduce that in-your-ear effect with hard-panned sounds.   (You probably don't get much of that with classical).    There are headphone preamps with blend controls and/or you can use software (if you are playing music on a computer).   There is a crossfeed plug-in for foobar2000 so it won't cost you anything.    (Don't confuse crossfeed with crossfade. ;) )   

Interesting...  Have ever heard Sennheiser HD-800 or Audeze headphones?

Cross feed usually narrows the soundstage and projects it a little in front of you, which may or may not be desirable depending on the recording and/or your headphones.

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #10 –
I've been using a headphone system for years. I have a HeadRoom Micro Amp that uses an op-amp circuit for crossfeed. It works better than any software effects program I've ever heard and I've listened to a lot. However the Meier Crossfeed component now available for Foobar2K is pretty darn good. It has a slider to adjust the crossfeed effects. When you're listening to heavily panned music such as 60's and early 70's rock on headphones, it sounds horrible. The vocals are in the middle but the guitars and keyboards are way off to the side. Listen to Sargent Pepper's and you'll see what I mean. When stereo came on the scene, producers and engineers went "Pan Happy" which was fine and dandy for loudspeakers in your living room, but for headphones, not so much. Lately headphone amp designers have pretty much given up on crossfeed circuits so software may have to be the way to go. HeadRoom, the people who made my amp, have quit selling any of their own gear years ago. Now they are an internet store for all things headphones. They are great people who will work with you to satisfy your needs instead of trying to empty your wallet or purse. I've been doing business with them for years and never had a problem. They are also headphone experts who will be able solve whatever issue you have. And no I don't work there. I found them from reading Stereophile magazine.
Good listening!!

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #11 –
That closed headphones cannot have good spatiality is a myth. Depending on the model, you might loose what some people (audiophiles) call 'air'. But that expression really doesn´t say anything at all.

So my first advice, repeating what has been said before: listen to headphones yourself before you consider buying them.

Personal observations, subjective: AKG 550: I didn´t find it smelly, not in the slightest. It was comfy, sounded good, well built. But my skin started to sweat after just five minutes wearing them. Not good. Sennheiser Momentum: small cups, sound ok, well built but too expensive for what it offers. Biggest disadvantage was the size: they are supposed to be over-ear but they really are on-ear in an unpleasant way. Audio Technica ATH-M50x: very good headphone. Sound a bit v-shaped, extremely robust, very well built. Kept it. Philips Fidelio M1: muffled (corroborated by frequency plots), well built (exception: cable is permanently attached), looks very good, extremely comfortable (and a true on-ear). Kept it because of comfort and its high sensitivity, it will get very loud with my smartphone and I can easily correct frequency errors with an equalizer within an app.

So I would consider high sensitivity (you don´t want to add an external amp; it´s unnecessary and only makes your whole setup bulkier), long term comfort, if you can easily replace parts. For the sound you have to decide yourself and listen to them.
marlene-d.blogspot.com

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #13 –
Cavaille, thanks for the descriptions! Very helpful! I will be getting an amp though, I don't listen to music on the go.

theriverlethe, yes, damn good looking! I'm a sucker for real wood so I think the Fostex all look good. And not a bad price for a Fostex too. But shipping outside the US is over a go-between, so I'm not sure if there's any support here.

Edit: forget it. Real nice looking, price good enough too (even with the fixed cable) but shipping end of August. I'm patient enough, the complaining party is not :))

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #14 –
I really enjoy the Oppo PM-3 for classical and it's a closed back with pretty good isolation as well.

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #15 –
I have the ATH-M50, the earlier version w/o the detachable cords.  They are quite energetic with a typical V shaped sound.  They're probably my most bass heavy headphones.  I didn't like the ear cushions, they kind of stuck to the skin, so I changed to a set of Beyerdynamics velour pads.  That made it more comfortable but the bass was out of control.  I had to put an extra layer of material to calm it down a bit.  I think they make direct replacement pads now so hopefully they don't change the sound too much. 

I bought the K550 when they first came out.  I found them to be pretty flat and accurate but too light in the low frequencies for my liking.  I ended up selling them to a friend who likes classical music.  He liked them just fine.  They were pretty comfortable, almost too loose around the head.  The ear cups are huge so there's plenty of space around the ears.  But at the same time, they were shallow so part of the driver padding was touching my ear.  They were definitely an upgrade from the ATH-M50. 

For reference, my other headphones are open designs, Beyerdynamics DT-990 (250 Ohms), Sennheiser HD650 and HD800.  My favorite is the DT-990.  It has the best balance of sound for my tastes and are supremely comfortable, it's common to wear it 5+ hours during the work day.  HD800 is a treat too, but lacks the "Kick" I get with the DT-990. 

I never tried out the DT-770 but if it's anything like the DT-990, I'd think that's worth trying.

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #16 –
Thanks all for your very helpful input. I've been quite busy lately, not much time to research and respond here, but today I had some time.

The Sennheiser HD280Pro gets poor reviews recently. According to some users on Amazon they sound extremely bass headed compared to the same model purchased a couple of years ago. The Audio Technica 50x gets good reviews but also people comment it's not too neutral and somewhat bass heavy. The Beyerdynamic T70 gets very good reviews, but some say the Beyer peak is pretty obvious and if you don't exactly position it over your ears, isolation suffers and so does the sound. Stage width was also quite small.

That reduces the field a bit, and I'll be purchasing multiple headphones to try out. First, the AKG 550, because it gets good reviews including from you guys, and it fits the requirements. Also, AKG's K7xx series is know for extremely wide sound stage, I hope it rubs off on the 550 (it seems so, as people do remark on the rather wide sound stage for a closed set). Second I'm going for the Panasonic. It has a removable cable, and gets good reviews. If it's good enough but not quite perfect I'll use it at work and keep it anyway, it does seem robust enough. And finally I'll try the Beyerdynamic DT660. It gets good reviews for classical music, and it's inexepensive, but it does seem to get remarks on comfort. We'll see. If these three aren't up to the task, I'm trying the Oppo PM3.

I'll report on what my experiences are, if they're note worthy.

One last question though. AKG 550 MK 1 or MK 2? The MK2 is a lot cheaper, which I find a bit odd, I'd expect prices to be closer.

Edit: amazing, the MK1 goes for 250 EUR and the MK2 for 155 EUR. According to reviewers, they cannot hear a difference, but AKG claims they used new drivers and added a bass reflex system with openings. The only difference the reviewers found was more padding on the MK2...

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #17 –
Hi,

I use closed headphones and IEMS only, and I listen to classical music (as well as Electronica, Folk, Jazz, some Pop...). So I hope you can relate to some of this.

I own and love the Beyerdynamics T70p, but these may be above your price limit. I try out many headphones, but always come back to these. And the Beyer DT1350 for mobile purposes.
Both sound very similar, bright and clear but never harsh, with deep, controlled bass (no booming at all). For me, they work for all kinds of music. The 1350s are less comfortable due to being on-ear and using higher pressure to achieve sound isolation.

I also own a pair of B&W P7s (over-ear) that have a more warm sound signature (pronounced mid-bass). They're fun to listen to, especially for movies, and very comfortable for me. Their P5s (on-ear) sound very similar (just tested in the store) and are less expensive.

Regarding IEMs, my preferred pair at the moment are Philips Fidelio S2s that I got for a song at a closeout sale. They sound clear and neutral (slightly emphasised bass maybe), are easy to handle (great cable, quick to put on/take off) and don't shake loose in my ears when I'm moving.
Before them, my favourites were the RHA T20s. They sound a bit better (coming very close to the Beyers in clarity and controlled deep bass), but are more of a hassle to put on. They also tend to shake loose in my ears over time.

Overall, I'd choose some neutral-sounding phones and mainly concentrate on comfort (what works on your head may not work on mine). In the case of IEMs, that's even more important, as they rely on good seat in your ears to achieve great sound. I happily know a store where I can try out IEMs, but that's rare...

Cheers
Kaspar

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #18 –
Kaspar, thanks for the tip! The regular T70 was on my list, I don't recall right now why I struck it, but I'll look at it again. The Philips Fidelio 2 was on my list, but I don't want to risk it. It seems there are multiple factories making these, with mixed results and getting a good one is like playing the lottery.

An update on my purchases: I'm listening to the Panasonic HD10 as I am typing this. They're very comfortable, fit my head perfectly. Detachable cables, comes with long and short ones, and (why doesn't every headphone come with this:) a pouch to keep it stored away from dust. However, the first listening test was... not very good. I was playing some 128kbps mp3's (BBC downloaded Beethoven symphonies) and while they sounded neutral, with a bit too much emphasis on the highs, all the typical mp3 compression artefacts were glaringly obvious. Flac or CD quality however sounded very good. Bass is neutral, clear, not muddled, the highs are extremely detailed and clear, maybe a tad too much so, but it depends on the music. Note they've been playing for just an hour or so, not sure if there's anything to the 'burning in' of headphones.

As for soundstage, I'd say average. Not as narrow as I'd feared for a closed set, but not all that bad either. Listening to Dragonborn soundtrack "Far Horizons" track, I definitely do hear a difference to the Sennheiser's soundstage, I'd say it's less than half as wide. If the Sennheiser puts you in the front row, almost inbetween the instruments, the Panasonic puts you in the middle of the concert hall. It does seem to miss a bit of 'body' though, again I'm feeling as if the highs are a bit too pronounced. It's not that they're too loud, they're too clear, a bit harsh maybe. Maybe not my first choice for classical instrumentals, not wide enough, and separation between instruments of a classical orchestra is also not as good as the Sennheiser HD595, but still very good. Jarre's Oxygene now playing sounds superb however. Rock music plays OK, but lacks a bit of oomph, I guess you really need to add some bass with an equalizer for that kind of music.

Isolation is average, I can't hear clearly what someone's saying but I do still hear some outside sound. Isolation the other way around is good.

So, not a bad start. If the AKGs sound better, the Panasonic will go to the office. It's more than good enough, has decent isolation and is rugged enough to withstand workplace use. If the AKGs sound less good, I might return them and try another one like the Beyerdynamic DT660 because as a closed replacement of the Sennheiser HD595 I feel the Panasonic is not close enough. Mind you, I have untrained ears, and this is my first closed set, maybe I'm expecting too much.

Edit: I just remembered a track my Senn's really hate, the first track of the Iron Man 3 soundtrack. The rumbling drums seem to distort the other instruments, as if the drivers are 'too loose' on the Sennheiser HD595. The Panasonic has no such problems, however does not sound really good either. Very narrow, and some instruments at the very edge of the sound stage, as if I'm listening to sampled instruments rather than an orchestra. As if the instruments are all wrongly placed, jumbled together. I don't remember this from the Senn's but I'll have to listen again, might just be lousy authoring. Just listening to this track on the Pana for a few times makes me tired, not good. That didn't happen in all the other tests with this set. Luckily, this is not my music, I just kept it for testing :)

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #19 –
After more extensive testing with the Panasonic, I decided to return it. There definitely is a gap in the mids, and trying to fix this with an equalizer in Foobar resulted in somewhat better sound, but added an echo effect and a nasal tonality. It's not a neutral headphones set, it shines with pop and electronics, but classical music is really not good, especially violins sound abnormal.

It really is a shame, it has excellent build quality, a detachable cable, comes with 2 cables, a pouch, fits perfectly ... but for people with classical music as their main staple, it is not an option.

On to the AKG K550 MK II. The MK I is no longer available. Very large, solid build. Fixed cable (boo!) and a lousy cable to boot (sticky rubbery feel to it, dirt glues onto it, and it's not supple at all, it goes everywhere except where you want it. Luckily, according to some guides on the internet, you can fairly easily convert it to a 3.5mm detachable cable.)

The pads are soft, very very big, but the room for the ear is not big at all, I can barely fit my normal sized ones in there, and I have started to use my fingers to enlarge the pads and then quickly put the headphones on before the pads get back into shape. Once you have sitting in position on your head it's quite comfortable IF you're not wearing glasses. Those definitely hurt after a while, but I just take mine off. If you want to use it for gaming or TV you might want to try them out before buying or switch to contacts :) Do take some time to fit them on, the movement of the cups is very firm, they don't automatically adapt to your head.

Extras: none. Zero. Not even a pouch? I mean, really. And the packaging is absolutely ridiculous. A cardboard box with a window so you can see the headphones, and a plastic shell to hold it in place. Not a problem, but the cover is arteficially weighted so it will feel much heavier than it really is. The box weighs as much as the headphones.

Now the important stuff: how does it sound? Initially, very disappointing. From the tests of the MK I, I was expecting a neutral sounding set, and that it definitely is not! Too much bass for that, and it's not as tight or detailed as I had hoped for. Mids seem relatively neutral, highs are bright, clear, and on the verge of becoming too much so. Soundstage is wide, but not as wide as my Sennheiser HD595, but better than the Panasonic. A few tests claimed this is the widest sounding closed set they ever heard, which was one of the reasons for me to try this one out, so maybe this is as good as it gets on closed headphones.

All in all however, they sound very pleasantly, on all types of music. They do seem to lack a bit separation between instruments. And for really enjoying my classical symphonies, I would still much prefer the Sennheiser. But for those moments of casual listening when I need to keep it down, these should do for now. It makes me wonder what the original MK I sounded like, there's a test on headfi where someone switches the drivers from each model and could blindly tell the difference so AKG did change something.

So, the search continues for an even better set. Biggest gripes with the AKG are the for my taste too laid back sound, the cable (which I'll fix) and the discomfort when wearing glasses. Also, with such large pads of plastic leather, you do start to sweat when ambiant temperatures get summery.

Unfortunately, I just learned that not only are the MK I not longer available, so are the Beyerdynamic DT660's. So, should I try the much more expensive T70? Or try a downgrade to the AKG 271 MK II, which come with both velour and plastic leather pads, and a detachable cable.

Question for you guys: I found this site  https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/ which has plenty measurements for a lot of headphones, and they do have a modification for the K551 which they also recommend for the K550. What do you think? I can't link to the mod, it's a downloadable pdf, but if you go to the AKG page on the site, you can find it under the K551.

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #20 –
Hello, @KuroNeko -

I realize this thread is old, but I was wondering if you'd found headphones that suited you. My tastes are similar to yours--I listen mainly to classical music--and I thought I might be able offer advice not already mentioned here.

Best regards,
Brian

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #21 –
Hello Brian
I have and haven't. I did really like the AKG K872 but it's financially out of range. None of the cheaper ones I tried I really liked for classical music, there was always some flaw that would eventually spoil the experience.

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #22 –
Did you try the KEF M500s? They are closed on-ears so they let very little sound in or out and the ear pads are made of soft memory foam with faux-leather. I find them comfortable for around two to three hours of continuous listening. So far I have used them for listening to classical (including organ) music, as well as rock, jazz etc. No problems yet.

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #23 –
Quote from: KuroNeko on
I have and haven't. I did really like the AKG K872 but it's financially out of range. None of the cheaper ones I tried I really liked for classical music, there was always some flaw that would eventually spoil the experience.

Yes, my requirements are similar to yours; like you, I've found that each potential candidate has weaknesses. Have you considered German Maestro's offerings? I'd like to try a variant of their GMP 8.35 models (~$250). There's also MrSpeakers' Aeon ($800), which I hope to demo at my local Crutchfield store in the coming weeks.

Re: Quick advice for closed headphones for classical music

Reply #24 –
I can recommend to try: B&O BeoPlay H6 by Bang & Olufsen (1st Gen, second is little more bassy)... The COMFORT is Outstanding
and the sound just one step from that, but with DSP, EQ etc.. The Lambskin of the pads... all my others Home Cans is at risk of retirement!