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Topic: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it? (Read 4316 times) previous topic - next topic
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Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Hi,

I was wondering which software audio player support WV+WVC playback beside foobar2000?
I'm using foobar for now but is there any alternative in case that foobar is not available (in the future) or not
working for some reason?
(I like to have backup solution) ;)

Thanks.

Best regards.
lame --abr 288 -f --lowpass 17 (+ mp3gain@92 dB)

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #1 –
Winamp and XMplay .  I'll keep testing. W10x64 .

Added: DeadBeef
Added: Audacious
Added: Aqualung

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #2 –
@shadowking

Thanks. I'll test few to see how it works.

Do you think is better to use x4 or s0.5 in general?
I find s0.5 - s0.75 better on medium-high bitrate but I'm not sure is it safe/reliable to use in general.
lame --abr 288 -f --lowpass 17 (+ mp3gain@92 dB)

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #3 –
x4 spends (a lot of) encoding effort to improve lossless compression. Never tested the impact on the lossy part, but at worst it shouldn't make any difference except on your patience.

Interesting to see that the correction files are honoured by more than just fb2k.
Note, you cannot expect it to work in Matroska even for players that support .wvc.
Yes Matroska itself does support it - storing the lossy core and the correction separately and with instructions that this is a correction (and then you could just demux and export the lossy without re-encoding, a bit more involved than mere file copy but still) - but I have no idea if any player would play it losslessly. Or if any end-user bothers.

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #4 –
@Porcus
It would be nice if wv+wvc in matroska can play losslessly. But demuxing to copy just wv file for mobile use would be VERY time consuming.
lame --abr 288 -f --lowpass 17 (+ mp3gain@92 dB)

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: synclagz on
But demuxing to copy just wv file for mobile use would be VERY time consuming.
Yeah, that is one reason why the "if any end-user bothers".
You would probably want some .bat file you could drag and drop the .mka files onto.

I certainly appreciate the idea that you can just copy *.wv onto a portable device, but myself I would never dare keep my lossless collection on something that depends on two filenames to match. Fine if I'd never touch it, but unfortunately I will.
YMMV because YClumsinessMV.


(As far as Matroska goes, I don't know whether it handles other hybrid lossy/lossless formats the same. Like DTS-HD MA? And if anything can utilize that either.)

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: synclagz on
@shadowking

Thanks. I'll test few to see how it works.

Do you think is better to use x4 or s0.5 in general?
I find s0.5 - s0.75 better on medium-high bitrate but I'm not sure is it safe/reliable to use in general.

It depends if you want super fast encoding vs slower.. Lossless compression will improve slightly on modern music.
If you have many GB or TB's of storage it wont make much difference.  However it could be more significant for

-sample rates above 48khz (HIres audio etc)
-Highly tonal / artificial sounds or genres
-Old 60/70's stereo with lots of seperation (WV defaults to fixed joint stereo, X modes will auto detect best setting)

For lossy part, most of this applies except for the lossy bitrate.

For using -s ,  In hybrid lossless compression only the file size will change. For s0.5 - s0.75 the overall total bitrate
will be 1 - 3 % higher than using default DNS or -S0. The extra noise in HF makes lossless compression a bit less efficient.
If noise is shifted down like -s-0.5 it can actually improve compression.  The DNS tries to stay there more or less but also up or down as needed.

How the -s applies to lossy is different as there is a psychoacoustic effect. The small increase in total size can yield improvement
to lossy quality.  How it will work depends on the audio and the listener. For lowish bitrate around 200k (44/16) the default
DNS is by far best IMO . For 256 s0.5 can be used as the error if audiable at all doesn't sound to me un natural, In contrast -s1 is something that never sat well with me when its exposed.  So it depends on your HF sensitivity, sample, age  etc.

If not sure the default dns setting or not using -s is the way to go in most cases. Either way IMO for my ears @ 256 + a mild s0.5 is not a big deal even if it is a bit 'off'
If one cannot distiguish say a 22.5khz samplerate (10khz lowpass),  -S1 (for 44khz or higher) might be the way as most noise in the audiable range is shifted up .

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #7 –
Finally, How does one listen ? 

- Using hybrid lossless (.wv+wvc) or mainly lossy .wv ?

IMO for hybrid lossless its an easier equation:  256k , normal or -h,  without -x ; superf fast,
works great on pc (lossless) and on phone & car audio it sounds very good.

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #8 –
According to the manual, it will employ dynamic noise shaping by default - since version 4.50.
Those who have used WavPack lossy for long enough, might by now consider to leave it up to the encoder. What "long enough" means, depends on whether the algorithm has improved after 4.50, I have not checked.

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Porcus on
According to the manual, it will employ dynamic noise shaping by default - since version 4.50.
Those who have used WavPack lossy for long enough, might by now consider to leave it up to the encoder. What "long enough" means, depends on whether the algorithm has improved after 4.50, I have not checked.

Yep, Since 4.50 dns is used by default at sample rate 48khz and lower. Usually its best to stick with it.
Rarely, a manual -s setting produced better result.  Since 4.50 i am not aware of any quality related changes.

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: shadowking on
Finally, How does one listen ? 

- Using hybrid lossless (.wv+wvc) or mainly lossy .wv ?

IMO for hybrid lossless its an easier equation:  256k , normal or -h,  without -x ; superf fast,
works great on pc (lossless) and on phone & car audio it sounds very good.


I'm mostly concerned about lossy part and going for -s0.5 was usually better on mitigating artifacts.
At least in my limited testing.
lame --abr 288 -f --lowpass 17 (+ mp3gain@92 dB)

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: synclagz on
Quote from: shadowking on
Finally, How does one listen ? 

- Using hybrid lossless (.wv+wvc) or mainly lossy .wv ?

IMO for hybrid lossless its an easier equation:  256k , normal or -h,  without -x ; superf fast,
works great on pc (lossless) and on phone & car audio it sounds very good.


I'm mostly concerned about lossy part and going for -s0.5 was usually better on mitigating artifacts.
At least in my limited testing.

Well since your going for medium to high bitrate, I guess your looking at 320 to 500.
I'd try -b6hx4 with and without -s.5.  Its equiv to -b530  .   I dont think i was ever able
to abx it or -b500hx4.  I guess even -hhx4 can be also used.  On top use the -c to create correction.
Then move or .zip the wvc's; to [artist/album.zip] to another drive or location etc..
So, Now you have the quality and the ability to reconstruct the original without having 2 collections and uses less space too.

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: synclagz on
@shadowking

Thanks. I'll test few to see how it works.

Do you think is better to use x4 or s0.5 in general?
I find s0.5 - s0.75 better on medium-high bitrate but I'm not sure is it safe/reliable to use in general.

 Short answer = Yes for both -x4 and -s0.5 .. 0.75
If you can't hear s.5 in general, It means that theres enough signal to mask it and at that amplitude your
hearing ability is diminished to it.  You get less masking the lower the bitrate and louder levels.

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #13 –
Basically, What you need to do is get a few sample of music with plenty of 'space' between notes or solo opera vocals.
Then test -s.5 vs dns vs -s0 at  typical bitrates that you use. If you can't pick -s.5 or even -s0 as regressive it means
what I wrote in the previous post.

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #14 –
Thanks for the detailed info.
I'll test few samples to see which setting works best.

Most of my concern is this sample (which I ABX-ed a lot):
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,120193.50.html

I worry if similar sample could appear in my collection or could come upon one in the future.
lame --abr 288 -f --lowpass 17 (+ mp3gain@92 dB)

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: synclagz on
Thanks for the detailed info.
I'll test few samples to see which setting works best.

Most of my concern is this sample (which I ABX-ed a lot):
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,120193.50.html

I worry if similar sample could appear in my collection or could come upon one in the future.

Maybe its also worth resampling to 48khz. In theory theres extra room for algorithms and
noise shaping to work. In foobar you can add the resampler dsp to the converter preset.

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: shadowking on

Maybe its also worth resampling to 48khz. In theory theres extra room for algorithms and
noise shaping to work. In foobar you can add the resampler dsp to the converter preset.
[/quote]


Do you suggest resampling whole music collection from 16/44 to 16/48 or you meant only critical samples?

Also what do you think about -b550hx4s0.5 setting without correction for main ("master") archive?
lame --abr 288 -f --lowpass 17 (+ mp3gain@92 dB)

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: synclagz on
Quote from: shadowking on

Maybe its also worth resampling to 48khz. In theory theres extra room for algorithms and
noise shaping to work. In foobar you can add the resampler dsp to the converter preset.

Quote
Do you suggest resampling whole music collection from 16/44 to 16/48 or you meant only critical samples?
Whole collection like opus does.

Quote
Also what do you think about -b550hx4s0.5 setting without correction for main ("master") archive?

That is pretty much what I'd use for a master archive , Or 598k for 48/16 samplerate.

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #18 –
@shadowking

Which setting in foobar2000 do you suggest as best approach in resampling to 16/48?
lame --abr 288 -f --lowpass 17 (+ mp3gain@92 dB)

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: synclagz on
@shadowking

Which setting in foobar2000 do you suggest as best approach in resampling to 16/48?


Under the processing section you add the DSPs ; In this case the resampler (i use dbpoweramp) or retroarch.
Then under resampler options set samplerate to 48000. 

For wavpack commandline you can use  -b6.23hx4s0.5

This will give you 550 for 44/16 and 598 for 48/16 .

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #20 –
@shadowking

Thanks a lot. :)
lame --abr 288 -f --lowpass 17 (+ mp3gain@92 dB)

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #21 –
@shadowking

Did you find that resampling to 16/48 helps problem samples?
lame --abr 288 -f --lowpass 17 (+ mp3gain@92 dB)

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #22 –
I think there is a modest improvement.  For codecs like Mp3 as well  with EIG sample.
But  i'll have to to much more testing.

Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #23 –
wavpack lossy 320k , retroarch resampler 48k ,normal quality

wavpack -b3.63hx4 . Sample 'furious'

abx

8/10, 44 dns

7/10, 48 dns

2/5,  48 -s0.5

4/5,  44 -s0.5



Re: Wavpack lossy + Correction - Which software players support it?

Reply #24 –
Velvet sample.   -b2.9hx4 (256k), Retroarch resampler.

5/5 ,44, dns

4/5, 48, dns