HydrogenAudio

Do you prefer a web based interface such as what HA provides?

Or would you prefer a text only mailing list?

I stored the answer in a short up-to-date form:

http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpp/img/answer.png (http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpp/img/answer.png)

Hi Frank!

I edited your message to use the URL tag instead of the IMG tag.  It's ok though, cause I know that's what you meant the first time around

Oh, and btw... I heard about your horrible netscape crash :/

www.mozilla.org (http://www.mozilla.org) <--- You can lead a horse to water, but you sure can't make them drink... eh?

Try a browser a little less buggy and a little more standard compliant.  You might be surprised at how much better web-browsing suddenly works. . . . .

At the end of Frank's text there says: ' while the telephone counter is mercelessy ticking'.

I voted for a web based interface, but only because I am on a flat-rate 10Mbps connection. I remember when I was still on a per-second 33k6 connection, and I can understand how Frank feels.

If you pay for your internet time, usenet/email are much more convenient (and cheaper) than www (http://www).

--
GCP

Personally I don't care too much but can see the advantages in a text-form mailing list option. So for the Frank's sake I vote text. Besides I'm also going back to my own 56 modem soon, so...

Can't we have both options as previously suggested? Or is that (technically)  too complicated?

Originally posted by Garf
If you pay for your internet time, usenet/email are much more convenient (and cheaper) than www (http://www).

Which is why there has been work to be able to offer both solutions here at HA.  Obviously, this is more complex than just going straight mailing list or continuing to offer a web forum only, like we do now.

However, with every other message being a complaint about how the interface here totally sucks and this and that and refusing to attempt to work with us in the mean time at all (by upgrading to a non-broken browser), it is not very encouraging for the people putting the time in to make this possibility a reality.  At this point it's continually bordering on flat out insults and rather than have this continue to be an issue, I feel it has gotten to the point where it really needs to be addressed more directly, via discussion.

My main interest here with the poll is to illustrate how many people would prefer one format over the other as a whole (and perhaps to draw a conclusion as to which format would then be more practical for use for the majority).

I have my assumptions as to which would be the most favored and yes, this is perhaps a bit skewed obviously since we are on a web based forum here already.  However, the alternative being offered up would be to switch from a web forum to a mailing list, and so it's a valid choice to contemplate.  I think that some may not realize this or realize the fact that the HA community may not even exist in it's current form if it were founded in a different format, even if this may happen to be more convenient to them as an individual.  I'm interested to see what everyone else thinks of this matter though... cause it's possible that I'm wrong

Mailing lists seem so 1995. Then again, I've never used anything but unlimited Internet access plans and broadband connections...I know my habit too well to tolerate per-minute charges!

Well, a daily or twice-daily mailing of the posts here would be great for those that want it, but I'd rather use the web-based boards.  I use IE6, and I've never had a problem with these boards.  I also use cable internet, unlimited dialup before that, so the problems that Frank is having does not affect me.  However, if there is only one solution, then I say let Frank get the benefit of mail, since he needs a solution that's good for him.  I mean, why shaft the developer?  I'd rather him have an easier time of things, since not everyone outside of the USA has a good internet experience.  If, however, a web-board and mailing list would be possible, it'd make me a happy boy.  Not only would I be able to check these boards, but I'd get daily notifications of changes that have gone on while I'm away.

I've never really been a big fan of mailing lists versus usenet.  For public discussion forums, it just seems like a more appropriate solution.

That said, it would be nice to have a more efficient interface for the discussion.  Web frontends have a lot of advantages, but for people wanting to do lots of discussion from the comfort of their own home, email or usenet is much more efficient, in my experience.

I noticed this float across freshmeat a few days ago: vNNTPd (http://www.stupendous.net/vnntpd/) is Perl-based NNTP daemon that reads a vBulletin DB.  Pretty early alpha though.

I voted text,

when i was at my uni and in halls i had the benefit of T3 and 512K connections and the web based format was great for this.

now im back to 56K with only 50 hours a month the mailing list option seems more appealing but i understand that many people would prefer the web based option, just as i would if i were on a fast, non time restricted connection.

The best option in my opinion would be to have both mailing and web based forum but as this may be complex here a a few thoughts on the avaliable options as i see it.

Option A
Leave it as it is, all the members are using the site as it is, and although it may be more benneficial for some to use another system, it hasn't stopped them using the site so far!

Option B
Implement both, but it could be hard, error prome and far to complex.

Option C
Move over to only a mailing list.
However i think that many more modern internet users would not be interested in another format as they haven't used it before and so therfore it may deter new users and even lose current members. Not good!

option D
Maintain a web based site wqith the latest news, announcments, introduce some guides, FAQ's and downloads and move the disscussion over to mailing list. Therefore new users can see what its all about and get usefull information and any discussions or questions be carried out over a mialing list.

Perhaps a user editable FAQ system could be set up and the mailing list discussions arcived ont  eh web as well.


Option E
One of probably many other ideas. 

These are just a fw of my thoughts and ideas, hope they are usefull!

Thanks a lot,

Kristian Tippins

Originally posted by Dibrom
Hi Frank!

I edited your message to use the URL tag instead of the IMG tag.  It's ok though, cause I know that's what you meant the first time around

Oh, and btw... I heard about your horrible netscape crash :/

Netscape also provides features so you not need a crash to lost data.
Resizing the netscape window is enough if the webserver forces
a re-read of the sheet due to a no-cache tag. No-cache forces
consist data, but slows down processing on a slow connection,
because every item is reloaded, even full static images (the
hydrogenaudio logo for instance).

Also you generate a lot of traffic on the server site (I expect HA
has no volume free).

Also compare the following links:

  http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html.gz (http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html.gz)

and

  http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html (http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html)

First one uses server based compression.

Ok, I voted for mailing list even though I don't like them.

Not that I like don't like ph0rums, but I preffer plain text - a newsgroup would be great.

I'm behind a simple 56Kbps line and I pay per hour as well, but I'm fully supporting the existence of this board. Personally speaking I do think that such forums offer far more features and convenient ways to communicate with other people than a plain mailing list. I've used both in the past and I know definitely which one I prefer...

Frank...I have a suggestion: Use Opera...you won't face any problem with the board. But the most important thing is that by hitting the key "G" you'll load the page without loading the graphics. It's an amazing feature that will save you from unecessary downloading...

Originally posted by bluewer than blue
I'm behind a simple 56Kbps line and I pay per hour as well, but I'm fully supporting the existence of this board. Personally speaking I do think that such forums offer far more features and convenient ways to communicate with other people than a plain mailing list. I've used both in the past and I know definitely which one I prefer...

Frank...I have a suggestion: Use Opera...you won't face any problem with the board. But the most important thing is that by hitting the key "G" you'll load the page without loading the graphics. It's an amazing feature that will save you from unecessary downloading...

How to save an important article? (slrn: s <ENTER>)
How to score articles?
How to show threads in a useful way?
Why <b>I</b> must search information instead of automaically get information
How to avoid to see old messages again and again and again?
What I must do that every article is transmitted once and only once over the line?
How to use my favourite text editor to write messages?
How to write multiple text messages offline?
How to postpone articles?

Nearly every feature I like from the News is I'm missing here.

This has nothing to do with the web browser, which only "macht das Kraut fett".

Web boards as effective as polling ports or busy waits when
interrupt driven systems are possible.

Using the latest Mozilla and clearing all cache between tries,
the server side compressed page and uncompressed page took the following times:

http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html.gz (http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html.gz)  --  27.312

http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html (http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html)        --  25.25

actually worse!!


Kristian

Curiously enough, the compressed link doesn't open correctly in IE5.5.

But, I always thought HA already used compression (mod_gzip). It doesn't?

--
GCP

Yes it does, check out the logos at the bottom of the page, the second one, after the apache logo

oops, posted this to the wrong thread earlier..

The site is completely database driven, no? How feasable is it for someone to write a script that takes the messages a user wants out of the database and sends them as an email? And vice versa, user can reply and depending on the subject the email gets put into the corresponding forum. Impossible? Improbable?

-Leto

edit:  i see this has already been brought up.. doh.

Originally posted by Garf
Curiously enough, the compressed link doesn't open correctly in IE5.5.

But, I always thought HA already used compression (mod_gzip). It doesn't?

-- 
GCP

Compressed links work with IE 5.0 (Win2KSP2), IE 6.0 (Win2KSP2),
NS 4.78 (LinuxIA32), NS 4.01 (LinuxIA32), NS 3.1 (LinuxIA32).

AFAIK this is a must for compliant Browsers since HTML 2.0.

Compressed like need 7 sec, uncompressed 11 sec using modem compression.

I vote for a text option, but only if it's a news format, not a mailing list.

Originally posted by kuniklo
I vote for a text option, but only if it's a news format, not a mailing list.

News and Mailing list is nearly equivalent.

News:
- you can read from all over the world
- public
- you need access to a news server providing the group you want to read

Mail:
- more problems if you want to read it outside from you home/office
- more private
- more management effort

hmm, dont want to be rude or something..., but did u know that musepack.tk is like 77492 bytes?, and i just need those 3 files... (plus some ugliest animated gifs i ever saw, some rotating *NEW* stuff) 

i vote for web btw.

Originally posted by Frank Klemm

Netscape also provides features so you not need a crash to lost data.
Resizing the netscape window is enough if the webserver forces
a re-read of the sheet due to a no-cache tag.

Netscape has a bug that when resizing, it loses all css formatting.  Because of that it is often necessary to reload the page for it to even be displayed properly.

If you were using a working browser, one that supported CSS properly, then you wouldn't see these kind of things.  Your recent netscape crash was directly due to you using a non-working browser, yet somehow you blamed me for this.

So far you have not responded to any mention of the fact that you really should use a better browser if you are having these problems.

Why won't you upgrade?

Also compare the following links:

  http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html.gz (http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html.gz)

and

  http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html (http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpc/index.html)

First one uses server based compression.

What's your point?  HA uses mod_gzip for apache (as you can see at the bottom of this page) and gzip compression in the php output.  I'm well aware of server based compression.

Just like to add my .02 c worth here...

My preferred option would definately be a Newsgroup type arrangement.
I have a flat rate dial-up account (56k), so while I'm not penalized for the amount of time it takes to view and use the forum moneywise,  as Frank is, it is slow and inefficient, and often frustrating trying to post a message (still have trouble staying logged in).

An example of a good working model I often think of the GRC newsgroups, which works well for me. I can't comment on mailing lists though as I have no experience of them.

Anyway that's just my preference, I'm happy to continue learning from and using the web-based forum otherwise.

Jeff

I think a News format would be nice, I am pretty sure there are web-front ends for News too, so you can have both.

But I though the "Subscribe to Forum" feature in the User CP sent out e-mails, or does on;y tell you that a thread was created/updated?

I think a text-based solution would be okay, but I prefer the Webbased Board solution....
In the end it's the content, which is important.
dev0
P.S.: Are there any good Newbie Introductions to mailinglist / news usage (quoting etc.). This would be important for newbiews, if HA really changes its discussion format.

It seems to me that if one of the goals of HA is to spread information about audio compression to the unenlightened masses (an assumption I'm making), changing something that might confuse or keep inexperienced users from coming and returning here doesn't make sense.  Most people just want to find the info they're looking for quickly and easily.  They aren't as interested in the "details" as many of those who read this forum on a daily basis.

Also, I don't think it's only the newbies who might be deterred.  I would consider myself a pretty experienced user and have been online for quite a few years and, for what ever reasons, have <never> signed up for a mailing list or read a newsgroup.  Reading the HA forums has become somewhat of an obsession for me lately, but if when I had first found this site I had needed to sign up for a mailing list, I most likely would have just moved on.  Then I would probably still be making MP3s with MusicMatch instead of using Musepack.

Of course, now that I'm hooked I will follow wherever HA goes.

Rob

I'm mainly a lurker here, but I think kuniklo said it best: news, not a mailing list.

I believe there are other sites that do both Web and News for the same content.

No examples to give though; when an interesting news servers is specified I immediately point tin from a remote shell to it and never look back. I've got DSL, but I love text - it's what I read. Giving the user a choice of interfaces through News seems fair. Nex


(isn't GRC both? I point tin to it, but I believe they've got web boardy things too)

The main reason for using a mailing list is that we already have the scripts written (well, 99% done) for a mailing list to vb gateway.  If we were to go with usenet instead, that'd mean writing a whole new set...

Also, and I don't know this for fact, I think it would be more difficult and more costly to maintain a news server than to just run a mailing list....  Since HA is funded completely by myself, out of my own pockets and with no outside compensation, this is something to consider....

Dibrom,

You cannot please them all. My forum has a very simple interface based on text-only and I have had few complaints about my forum being ugly. Only a few complaints, by H.A. staff mostly, but still.

So you can't please them all. Go visual and modem users complain. Go simplistic and xp-candyas*es start whining.

I presume that VBP supports themes? Make a ultra-simple theme for those who prefer it as an option.

I have used these pages with many browsers and I have never experienced any problems. Funny that these complaints come from the MusePack people, since their webpages are among the worst on the Internet: Ugly, unreadable, unusable.

Personally, I prefer a web based discussion because I can check it from anywhere (ie: school, home, work, friend's house when showing him how to use Musepack, etc.). For me, it would be much better to keep this site as a web based format.

As a web developer myself, I hate having to support older browsers, so i try to keep the page as simple as possible without too much fancy stuff. I try to avoid nesting tables too much to help older browsers (especially Netscape 4.x ones) so they don't choke when loading. I optimize the graphics as much as I can without losing quality so someone with even a 14.4 modem could download them in a reasonable amount of time. I use CSS whenever possible too for fonts (no ugly <font> tags, since they are officially depreciated by the W3C and really clutter up the HTML code) and so on.

I'm curious Dibrom, what browsers can supposedly view this web site? I would get rid of compatibility with any browsers older than the 4.x line if you haven't already. By using CSS for fonts, you could get rid of A TON of font tags (instead of <td><font blah blah blah blah.......> use <td class="text">, simple, effective, and fast). Optimize the graphics if you haven't already done so (you'd be surprised how much you can optimize a simple GIF file). See if you can break up some of these tables so a user can see parts of the web page while the rest is being downloaded/rendered.

Originally posted by cd-rw.org
Dibrom,

You cannot please them all. My forum has a very simple interface based on text-only and I have had few complaints about my forum being ugly. Only a few complaints, by H.A. staff mostly, but still.

So you can't please them all. Go visual and modem users complain. Go simplistic and xp-candyas*es start whining.

I presume that VBP supports themes? Make a ultra-simple theme for those who prefer it as an option.

I have used these pages with many browsers and I have never experienced any problems. Funny that these complaints come from the MusePack people, since their webpages are among the worst on the Internet: Ugly, unreadable, unusable.

I would find nearly all "Vote-Questions" are wrong. I do not use Linux XOR Windows,
but both, I'm not against a web based interface, but against a web ONLY interface.
I'm not using MP3 XOR MPC XOR Lossless, but have MP3 AND MPC AND Lossles
AND CD-Audio only. I'm listening Computer Audio, Radio, Tape deck, CD and TV.

What would be neat if you decide to add a mailing list option is to have a daily digest (or just send each message separately in e-mail) of all the messages in a specific forum (say the Musepack forum), send it to whoever requests it. Include after each "post" a URL so someone could go directly to the web based thread of that particular discussion. Also, have a Reply URL with each message so someone could just click that and bring it to that thread's reply page. This way, people like Frank don't have to use the web page unless they have to reply to something...I'm sure that will greatly help his situation. He could even download his mail, disconnect the net, read it, have a text editor up, do all of the typing of replies to messages, reconnect and paste them into the appropiate pages. Would save him a lot of time and downloading.

Also maybe offer an option to not display automatically a thread in the reply page. Downloading a huge table full of rows and text takes a lot of time. Just offer an option if the person would like to see the thread while replying.

chrisgeleven: you can do the same with News by just telnetting to your shell account - from anywhere, and thence to any news server using the prg you're used to. Or by using a full ppp news client from anywhere, by just entering the server name.

Dibrom: quite right - I hadn't thought of the expense. Setting up a news server would set you back more, both in time and money.

Guess the best soln is to have a mailing list (with digest support)  and let the rest of us keep using this Web board. That's fine with me. I'll stick with the Web in this case as I don't like mailing lists much. Nex

I know you can do the same with news, although personally I prefer mailing lists over news (and web based discussions over mailing lists) just because news is harder to setup initially and I would think that a mailing list would be easier to create (less time Dibrom has to spend on this).

Originally posted by chrisgeleven
What would be neat if you decide to add a mailing list option is to have a daily digest (or just send each message separately in e-mail) of all the messages in a specific forum (say the Musepack forum), send it to whoever requests it. Include after each "post" a URL so someone could go directly to the web based thread of that particular discussion. Also, have a Reply URL with each message so someone could just click that and bring it to that thread's reply page. This way, people like Frank don't have to use the web page unless they have to reply to something...I'm sure that will greatly help his situation. He could even download his mail, disconnect the net, read it, have a text editor up, do all of the typing of replies to messages, reconnect and paste them into the appropiate pages. Would save him a lot of time and downloading.

Also maybe offer an option to not display automatically a thread in the reply page. Downloading a huge table full of rows and text takes a lot of time. Just offer an option if the person would like to see the thread while replying.

Also a Top News mode would be nice for W3 based board. Who frequently polls
is more interested to see the 1 or 2 new posts at the top.

A "posts of the last 1h/2h/4h/6h/8h/10h/12h/24h" would be nice.

under forum there is "view new topics"

Also 'Active topics' on the left of the front page...

--
GCP

Originally posted by Frank Klemm
A "posts of the last 1h/2h/4h/6h/8h/10h/12h/24h" would be nice.

active topics (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Active_Topics&file=index) shows the 60 latest threads. I know it's probably not what you want, but check it out anyway.

As Garf said, you can find the link on the left side of the front page.

Originally posted by JohnV
active topics (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=Active_Topics&file=index) shows the 60 latest threads. I know it's probably not what you want, but check it out anyway.

As Garf said, you can find the link on the left side of the front page.

if ( 0 == strcmp ( "topics", "articles" ) )
    printf ( "Buy a new computern" );

For me the interface of MPC discussion doesn't really matter anymore. I've had enough about MPC and will support formats with a future, like Ogg Vorbis.

The fun-factor has completely disappeared from the MPC regarding me, it's not the same like it used to be when Andree was around. Nowadays it's just... not fun.

In the future, if I want quality, I'll choose lossless. If I want good size/quality ratio, I'll choose MP3 or Vorbis. I want to help the format which will likely gain widespread acceptance among big masses, that is of course Vorbis.

In my opinion HA should just dump the MPC-forums and discussion and concentrate supporting the formats of the future: lossless, Vorbis, MP3 and AAC (as in .mp4 audio). Musepack has so small coverage overall that other parties can just as well handle the discussion etc. related to MPC.

Started a somewhat related thread here:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/showth...19775#post19775 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=19775#post19775)

I really wonder how this bodes for the MPC community.  Oh well.... at this point, I must admit that I'm starting to share some of JohnV's sentiments.

For quite awhile now, I've looked the other way in regards to how the project has been handled recently, and particularly how social interactions with the "active" developer have gone down... telling myself that as long as things were still getting done, and as long as there was still a community that it was alright.

I'm not sure what this recent development means to the community though, especially if it's not a public thing.  And I find it particularly disheartening that many of the long time MPC supporters, such as myself, and some of those who really contributed heavily to the tuning of the codec back when Andree was still in control, such as JohnV, have been excluded from this recent development....

WHAT!!!!?. Frank dont give up!. MPC is one the best formats that my hearing ever sense. Let  the music invade the algorithms of sound, in phases that only the highways of the future can decode. MPC means for me Music Path to the Cosmos. Keep the good work Frank!.

Originally posted by TURBO
WHAT!!!!?. Frank dont give up!. 

Frank isn't giving up anything.

He's just treating MPC users in a way they don't deserve: Kicking them away from the development process, and listening to only a few "31337" friends who have access to his secret mailing list.

That's a really sad state of affairs. The MPC community/scene/whatever seems to be fragmenting.

Regards;

Roberto.

Why not just ask to reprint the mailing list on hydrogenaudio.org?

Really, the average user doesn't need to comment on the development process, but it would be nice to see what's going on every now and then.

Originally posted by Frank Klemm


if ( 0 == strcmp ( "topics", "articles" ) )
    printf ( "Buy a new computern" );

It shows which threads had recently articles posted in. If you click on them, you go directly to the latest article in that thread, so it boilds down to what you were asking for.

--
GCP

I live in a country where a typical 56k dialup connection costs about 50$ a month, and about the same amount for a 256k dsl if you are lucky enough to get it (coverage and availability is limited at best). Also, i have tried HA from an overcrowded 256K Frame Relay connection (which costs like 500$ a month) at some university building (with like 70 computers connected) and typical avg transfer times of, like. hmm... 0.8KB/sec.

Also i´m the kind of person who can´t stand the slowness of a graphical email client, and i typically use mutt for this job (that way i can process like 500 msgs a day).

I also happen to know about the newsgroup style system, and of course i am subscribed to many typical text only mailing lists.

Of course i have also used some other web/bbs style forums like HA (r3mix, /., debianplanet, and others).

I have lost internet for like 6 months, so i could only ocasionally read HA from public computers or at other people homes...

And in my opinion: I don´t see anything particulary wrong with HA style.

The other systems have their pros and cons, and i don´t see why people sometimes wants their only true way to be. I think that there is plenty for everyone.

So, why not simply start a mailing list?

I suppose its technically possible to make a web/bbs style system to also have a "mailing list mode"... hmm guess its only a matter of making such a system (or maybe there are some already?)

But, is it really that hard to use or get acoustomed to HA the way it is right now? I can understand some ppl could have different tastes, but i really don´t think its unusable the way it is now. In fact, HA is one of the few systems i can enjoy, even with its limitations.

Postpone? Save? Text?
Hmm... copy and paste maybe? how about using a text only browser? (should check with lynx, w3m and links, hehehe).

Ah well, just an opinion.