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Topic: Advanced Limiter does the opposite in Win7 (Read 6306 times) previous topic - next topic
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Advanced Limiter does the opposite in Win7

Hello guys, i've got a confusing problem.
I'm using foobar 1.1.7 in both Win XP and Win 7. I've got Resampler->Equalizer->Advanced Limiter in DSP chain. KS output is used for Win XP, DS output for Win7.
In Windows XP, when I, say, move 3 left sliders in EQ up to the limit, I here the sound being limited by Advanced Limiter, so i get the bass that's not clipped. So as I understand Advanced Limiter here works as intended.
But, in Windows 7, when I do the same with EQ, Advanced Limiter seems to make no effect on the sound, the bass gets really distorted due to clipping. But if I move Equalizer below Adv. Limiter (so that the chain is Resampler->Advanced Limiter->Equalizer), I do hear the sound becomes quieter and no clipping occurs (i think it's windows mixer that makes this limiting). So it seems to me that in my case in Win7 Advanced Limiter not only does not do its job by preventing a clipping, but it also prevents windows mixer from doing that.
So, what's wrong with it?

P.S. I must add that everything i've said for Win7 is for DS output, but if i enable WASAPI Exclusive, the Limiter starts working the same way as in Win XP. The problem is that using wasapi exclusive is not an option for me, since it mutes all other sounds in windows.
Also, i've tried to install a clean new foobar, it didnt help.

Advanced Limiter does the opposite in Win7

Reply #1 –
Did you take a look at the peak meter (View - Visualizations - Peak Meter)? When I add the advanced limiter it limits to <= 0 dBFS like it should, on Win7.
It's normal to sound distorted if you boost the bass alot.

Btw, you're right about the Win7 audio engine also limiting the audio that's played through DS if the signal is too loud.
"I hear it when I see it."

Advanced Limiter does the opposite in Win7

Reply #2 –
Also depends on output sample types. For some reason, samples other than ones in float (ie, 16-bit int) aren't clipped in Windows Vista/7. Windows XP is immune to this :/

Advanced Limiter does the opposite in Win7

Reply #3 –
Quote from: mudlord on
Also depends on output sample types. For some reason, samples other than ones in float (ie, 16-bit int) aren't clipped in Windows Vista/7. Windows XP is immune to this :/

I don't understand what you're saying.

Windows' audio engine always uses floating point as mix format which is why fb2k also outputs in a floating point format and doesn't let you adjust this.
And it doesn't matter which format you choose, if you boost bass without enough headroom any format theoretically clips. It's just that the audio engine also has an integrated limiter which prevents clipped samples being passed to the soundcard.
"I hear it when I see it."

Advanced Limiter does the opposite in Win7

Reply #4 –
Ah, I thought it was format dependant.

thanks for the correction.

Advanced Limiter does the opposite in Win7

Reply #5 –
is there any way to disable the built in limiter?  I remember using previous versions of foobar where the limiter wasnt noticeable (or was not implemented) and the eq thus sounded better and was easier to use.  To my ears and meter reading the limiter threshold is at least 6 db too low compared to before.  I used to get great eq results for fun eq experiments with boosts; now it pumps and sounds lame even if lower the overall volume or boost less.  Can i disable it somehow?  Id rather have clipping than pumping...?
Be a false negative of yourself!

Advanced Limiter does the opposite in Win7

Reply #6 –
Boost EQ for fun as you normally would in foobar, then hit "Auto Level". This will keep the shape of your EQ, but lower all sliders to max 0.

It's only unfortunate if you listen directly through your sound card, instead of a receiver/amp, which means you may not have a way of compensating for the reduced voume.

Advanced Limiter does the opposite in Win7

Reply #7 –
Quote from: dhromed on
Boost EQ for fun as you normally would in foobar, then hit "Auto Level". This will keep the shape of your EQ, but lower all sliders to max 0.

It's only unfortunate if you listen directly through your sound card, instead of a receiver/amp, which means you may not have a way of compensating for the reduced voume.


Thanks for the reply, but actually I tried the Auto Level and it doesn't sounds as good attenuating as it does boosting to my ears.  Also, my audio interface does have both software and hardware amplitude controls (volume controls) so compensating for the volume audibility is not a problem.  Again, to my ears it sounds better boosted than attenuated, although sometimes I do use the Auto Level function anyhow. 

The thing is, before they added in the built in limiter,  or before they set it to such a low threshold, there really was no problem.  I could boost as much as I wanted in the EQ, and it sounded great without the time-oriented limiter pumping.  If It clipped a little bit I didn't mind, but most of the time it didn't and if the clipping was bad I either adjusted the EQ or used the Auto Level like you mentioned. 

Sometimes I also use the foo Graphic EQ addon, and unfortunately, the foobar2000 built in limiter is still active while that runs which is ridiculous since the foo Graphic EQ addon already has a it's own auto-attentuation function to prevent clipping.  But at least the foo Graphic EQ addon does it sensibly with mathematical decibel calculation instead of degrading the entire audio playback path with a poorly-implemented limiter. 

I use a lot of VST effects in other (DAW) programs, so I'm very familiar with types of limiters and how to use them.  Really, foobar2000 would be better off not using a limiter at all, since clipping is the user's fault and issue.  But if it had to be done, they should use something like Flux Bittersweet TRANSIENT SHAPER which adjustably only limits transients (which are usually the only issue for most types of music).  If any of you have ever used that plugin you know how simple to use it is and how good it can sound compared to a limiter.  Transient shapers aren't as well-known however.  Even though they are like the secret weapon of many sound engineers.
Be a false negative of yourself!

Advanced Limiter does the opposite in Win7

Reply #8 –
The limiter is built into Windows, not foobar2000.
 

Advanced Limiter does the opposite in Win7

Reply #9 –
Actually, I don't use Windows DirectSound nor MMS nor WDM drivers.  I use ASIO for a USB audio interface.  And I take pains to disable Microsoft settings as part of DAW optimization.  I don't think it's the Windows limiiter in my case. 

I have used Foobar2000 for several years and it's only been since one of the recent versions that the limiter started being a problem.  It was a problem on both XP SP3 and Windows 7. 

However, the good news is that I stumbled onto a post on hydrogen audio where somebody mentioned that the Foobar2000 so-called "Advanced Limiter" is automatically disabled if ReplayGain is active. 

I don't use ReplayGain at all, but this tip was good enough for me.  I added "0 dB" entries for ReplayGain into all my files and now the problem is solved. 
So yeah, knowledge reigns supreme over everyone.  Thanks to whomever it was who posted that nugget of info.  I wouldn't have found that out anywhere else. 

I really wish some things were better documented and I wish developers wouldn't mess up their own wonderful creations with feature creep. 

Peace and thanks, though.
Be a false negative of yourself!