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Topic: Loudness contol for Foobar (Read 2808 times) previous topic - next topic
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Loudness contol for Foobar

Hello, could you say if there is an existing plugin for foobar that add a compensation between the balance and volume control please ?

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #1 –
I can. There isn't. If you tinker with volume a lot and think different frequencies need different adjustments based on the loudness you can always use the EQ to compensate. And if you find settings you like you can save presets from them.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #2 –
Closest thing I can think of is to use something like the TDR Slick EQ M plugin that has an EL (Equal Loudness) mode, where it adjusts the EQ curve based on Fletcher Munson, but it doesn't do it automatically by loudness, you'd have to tweak the amount yourself.

https://docs.tokyodawn.net/slickeq-m-manual/#Meta_Filter_Type

Not a component/plugin, but some of the recent RME DACs have a very cool Loudness function where you can set the amount of bass and or treble boost or cut, and it will adjust these based on the output level you set, kinda like the old Loudness controls on hi-fis, but the 'Loudness' amount adapts to the actual volume level.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Case on
I can. There isn't. If you tinker with volume a lot and think different frequencies need different adjustments based on the loudness you can always use the EQ to compensate. And if you find settings you like you can save presets from them.

I really need a fully automated volume control that applies Fletcher-Munson curves

Quote from: darkflame23 on
Closest thing I can think of is to use something like the TDR Slick EQ M plugin that has an EL (Equal Loudness) mode, where it adjusts the EQ curve based on Fletcher Munson, but it doesn't do it automatically by loudness, you'd have to tweak the amount yourself.

https://docs.tokyodawn.net/slickeq-m-manual/#Meta_Filter_Type

Not a component/plugin, but some of the recent RME DACs have a very cool Loudness function where you can set the amount of bass and or treble boost or cut, and it will adjust these based on the output level you set, kinda like the old Loudness controls on hi-fis, but the 'Loudness' amount adapts to the actual volume level.

My comuter uses windows XP and modern DACs are not reconized (and the embeded realtek sound is great)

Quote from: Bogozo on
No such plugin. But there exist script for JScript Panel, that can automatically switch DSP presets depending on volume level - https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,119730.0.html

It seems to be a little complex for a average user, and we need some measured and calibrated speakers in order to adjust the parameters of the DSP (active XO) in order to avoid any clipping, a simple UI sould help a lot to reduce the complexity of the process.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #5 –
Quote from: silverprout on
we need some measured and calibrated speakers in order to adjust the parameters of the DSP
Really. But how do you think "fully automated volume control that applies Fletcher-Munson curves" will work without "measured and calibrated speakers"? To apply meaningful equalization in this case you need to know real sound pressure level in listening zone. Otherwise, just create some EQ presets that sounds good for you and you are done.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Bogozo on
Quote from: silverprout on
we need some measured and calibrated speakers in order to adjust the parameters of the DSP
Really. But how do you think "fully automated volume control that applies Fletcher-Munson curves" will work without "measured and calibrated speakers"? To apply meaningful equalization in this case you need to know real sound pressure level in listening zone. Otherwise, just create some EQ presets that sounds good for you and you are done.

Because 80dB is the maximum that i can endure in the lows and also the maximum sound pressure that i can obtain from my loudspeakers at the listening distance of one meter, they are equalized to have a flat response under 250 Hz, the rest of the frequencies are assumed by an unequalized wide band transducer.
The frequencies under 250Hz are a little ragged in my room, so instead of a destructive and inacurate parametric equalisation i've used a 90° oriented diplole woofer that avoid all the resonnaces of my room. There is just one filter at 250Hz and a dipole compensation but even with a long stroke modern woofer... the SPL is very limited.
The soundfield have dictated my solution, i haven't really made any choice.



"how do you think "fully automated volume control that applies Fletcher-Munson curves" will work without "measured and calibrated speakers"
Because the soundfield have to be cleaned out befiore any sound "manipulation"

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #7 –
A maximum of 80dB at 30Hz is on the 20 phons trace, it gives a gigantic equalization and the traces are flatening with the SPL augmentation. IMHO any static equalization is pointless, and also, any equalization based on your "tastes" is not only pointess but utterly ridiculous.
Therefore for close and low listenig levels, a dynamic loudness based on Fletcher-Munson curves is the only case when the equalization take any sense.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #8 –
Quote from: silverprout on
It seems to be a little complex for a average user
You do not appear to be an average user.  Your requirements seem to be highly individual, therefore you need a potentially unique solution and must either roll one yourself or hope to engage the interest of somebody with the understanding+skills+willingness+free time to help you.

I lack any of those.  In particular, I lack understanding of what the problem is.  I can understand one might want to apply equalisation to flatten the frequency response of any particular listening environment (speaker performance + room acoustics), but beyond that surely the only thing left is compensating for hearing defects.  If you are trying to compensate for "normal" hearing, then you are going to move the listening experience away from what it would be hearing something "live" – and I thought the whole point of HiFi is to reproduce the live experience.

The Equal Loudness curves are a statement of fact, and useful for scientific purposes... not something to aim at!
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #9 –
Also: maybe a particular software player is a little too far away from the action to be the component to perform these corrections. The coarse, consumer-grade version of this compensation was (is?) the infamous "loudness" button which just to a 1-preset fixed compensation.

According to this recent discussion on reddit, there were (are?) hifi amplifiers that have implemented a continuous equal loudness curve compensation integrated. At least with passive speakers, this might be the "properer" place to put such a correction.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #10 –
Quote from: fooball on
Quote from: silverprout on
It seems to be a little complex for a average user
You do not appear to be an average user.  Your requirements seem to be highly individual, therefore you need a potentially unique solution and must either roll one yourself or hope to engage the interest of somebody with the understanding+skills+willingness+free time to help you.
I lack any of those.  In particular, I lack understanding of what the problem is.  I can understand one might want to apply equalisation to flatten the frequency response of any particular listening environment (speaker performance + room acoustics), but beyond that surely the only thing left is compensating for hearing defects.  If you are trying to compensate for "normal" hearing, then you are going to move the listening experience away from what it would be hearing something "live" – and I thought the whole point of HiFi is to reproduce the live experience.
The Equal Loudness curves are a statement of fact, and useful for scientific purposes... not something to aim at!

I've bought DSP at 80€ (T-rack 4in 4out ADAU1701) and two Aliexpress T-amp for 8€ (4X15W), a lot of average users are able to parameter a simple DSP in 2024 IMO so i've added two PLS 830983 widebands and two used Fountek woofers and two bobins of PLA, the final bill is under 250€.
Two small phantom devialet costs 2K€ and need an additionnal DSP for the compensation, i dont feel that the low volume listenings are a marginal solution but i really feel that a static tonal destroyer like the embedded equailizer in foobar is someting really marginal.

... The preservation of the tonal equilibrium is my goal and the scientific data is a tool that i want to use to direct my feelings and abilities to the right solution.

Quote from: ojdo on
Also: maybe a particular software player is a little too far away from the action to be the component to perform these corrections. The coarse, consumer-grade version of this compensation was (is?) the infamous "loudness" button which just to a 1-preset fixed compensation.

According to this recent discussion on reddit, there were (are?) hifi amplifiers that have implemented a continuous equal loudness curve compensation integrated. At least with passive speakers, this might be the "properer" place to put such a correction.

The compensation is not dynamic, exagerated, inacurate.  I'm not looking for a "bass boost" or other subjective psychological wandering.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #11 –
You might be interested in this topic. In the context of this thread, there were also some impulse responses for the convolver posted here. Unfortunately, the convolver currently only works with 32bit foobar2000.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #12 –
Quote from: The Link on
You might be interested in this topic. In the context of this thread, there were also some impulse responses for the convolver posted here. Unfortunately, the convolver currently only works with 32bit foobar2000.
"Do not use it on MP3 or AAC compressed files. This plugin is very likely to reveal artifacts not heard under normal listening conditions. Your results with other codecs may vary. At best use lossless files."

This is a severe limitation, is there any way to link the equalization parameters of the normal equalizer to the volume, you enter your curve by modifiying each band manually and the frequencies are evoluting to mimic approximately the ISO 226:2003, the more you raise the volume the more the equailizer curve is flattened ?

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #13 –
Quote from: The Link on
Unfortunately, the convolver currently only works with 32bit foobar2000.
I'm surprised you weren't aware of https://foobar.hyv.fi/?view=foo_dsp_convolver

Quote from: silverprout on
"Do not use it on MP3 or AAC compressed files. This plugin is very likely to reveal artifacts not heard under normal listening conditions. Your results with other codecs may vary. At best use lossless files."

This is a severe limitation
That is a generic warning and has nothing to do with used components. It's about heavy signal alterations having the ability to turn audible something that the lossy codec's psychoacoustic model thought was inaudible.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #14 –
Quote from: silverprout on
I've bought DSP at 80€ (T-rack 4in 4out ADAU1701) and two Aliexpress T-amp for 8€ (4X15W), a lot of average users are able to parameter a simple DSP in 2024 IMO so i've added two PLS 830983 widebands and two used Fountek woofers and two bobins of PLA, the final bill is under 250€.
Two small phantom devialet costs 2K€ and need an additionnal DSP for the compensation, i dont feel that the low volume listenings are a marginal solution but i really feel that a static tonal destroyer like the embedded equailizer in foobar is someting really marginal.

... The preservation of the tonal equilibrium is my goal and the scientific data is a tool that i want to use to direct my feelings and abilities to the right solution.
Just because an "average user" can buy the equipment doesn't mean an average user will.  Your requirements are niche and your problem not anyone else's.

Loudness curves can be programmed into a graphic equaliser (of adequate resolution) or implemented in a DSP component, but why you would want to is a mystery best known by yourself.  All you will end up with is an artificial sound.
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Case on
Quote from: The Link on
Quote from: silverprout on
"Do not use it on MP3 or AAC compressed files. This plugin is very likely to reveal artifacts not heard under normal listening conditions. Your results with other codecs may vary. At best use lossless files."

This is a severe limitation
That is a generic warning and has nothing to do with used components. It's about heavy signal alterations having the ability to turn audible something that the lossy codec's psychoacoustic model thought was inaudible.
The psycoacoustic model is designed to be rendered with a flat response, disrupt with the tonal equilibrium of the final rendering that the math model is designed for... can ruin the sound with artifacts.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #16 –
Quote from: fooball on
Quote from: silverprout on
I've bought DSP at 80€ (T-rack 4in 4out ADAU1701) and two Aliexpress T-amp for 8€ (4X15W), a lot of average users are able to parameter a simple DSP in 2024 IMO so i've added two PLS 830983 widebands and two used Fountek woofers and two bobins of PLA, the final bill is under 250€.
Two small phantom devialet costs 2K€ and need an additionnal DSP for the compensation, i dont feel that the low volume listenings are a marginal solution but i really feel that a static tonal destroyer like the embedded equailizer in foobar is someting really marginal.

... The preservation of the tonal equilibrium is my goal and the scientific data is a tool that i want to use to direct my feelings and abilities to the right solution.
Just because an "average user" can buy the equipment doesn't mean an average user will.  Your requirements are niche and your problem not anyone else's.

Loudness curves can be programmed into a graphic equaliser (of adequate resolution) or implemented in a DSP component, but why you would want to is a mystery best known by yourself.  All you will end up with is an artificial sound.

There is no market analysis to confirm that i'm alone, moreover it is a fact that the programmers have done an meaningless "static equalizer" in order to feed the "what they think that the average guy need" doxa... in order to do thing like all others that do the things like all others.
I don't have any "problem", i try to improve myself instead of doing what an average guy must do if he wants to have social interactions with others average guys.
"graphic equaliser""why you would want to is a mystery best known by yourself" make it dynamic hasn't be done, the equilibrium and the percetion is rationalized in laboratories, and the science needs some experimentations to be correctly applied to the real life of the average guys.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #17 –
And you still think you're an average user!   :))
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #18 –
Quote from: fooball on
And you still think you're an average user!   :))

I was in a mess because i need some music when i design on my CAD computer, i've tested some commercial desktop monitors, and the responses were ragged under 250Hz. after that i've printed and tested a lot of boxes and loudspeaker units, retained the best performer after months of tests and measurements (in the CAD workflow).
Then produced the final product, somebody that came at my house was so amazed by the resolution, clarity and the details of the sound... that i given them for free and build a second pair.
Build desktop monitors with a DSP is a not really rare event, and there is at least two of my models on earth, when your monitors can offer a clean rendering of the lows, you need to have a dynamic compensation of the lows to keep the tonal equilibrium constant.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sca_esv=cbb07cb897603c0c&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIJjwEyPZSHPX2AZGTHCeb99im26lA:1718820430928&q=thingiverse+loudspeaker&udm=2&fbs=AEQNm0CbCVgAZ5mWEJDg6aoPVcBgBfTqaTQuNecG83gDqWXJqDDjxZx4JTagBkj836YhK0esmg08VwYjk-C34moSUHfR2_enYk-24_sxvdiMta5BoHGwEcY7cI__d8DnxdEdjS4dqYTnxrMpwCpC8SuovqX0Pl6a7euQcF9tDWAlEyy8k2jiX7i8IT1Y5OS6v0CvqnpQCHb07xlrAXdtxcNT1JtVHBfBzg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj9gN-JoeiGAxXGV6QEHXuuBxoQtKgLegQICxAB&biw=2261&bih=1073&dpr=1.13

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #19 –
For those that don't see the interest of a ponderated volumle contol in the lows, there is a world organisation just for you... a whole world of flat thinking where you can impose your flatulations.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Bogozo on
But how do you think "fully automated volume control that applies Fletcher-Munson curves" will work without "measured and calibrated speakers"?
Quote from: silverprout on
Because the soundfield have to be cleaned out befiore any sound "manipulation"
You didn't answer the question.

Once again: to know what compensation curve to apply, you need to know real sound pressure level. Otherwise it is just a toy.

Also, you probably forgot (or never knew?), that these equal loudness curves are for pure tones, not for music - https://www.meterplugs.com/blog/2016/12/11/equal-loudness-curves-purely-misleading.html

Quote from: silverprout on
It seems to be a little complex for a average user,
It is too complex to install component, copy-paste script and create some DSP presets?

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Bogozo on
Also, you probably forgot (or never knew?), that these equal loudness curves are for pure tones, not for music
That is the essence of the point I am trying to make too.

The equal loudness curves are an estimate of the typical sensitivity of human hearing vs. frequency.  They are absolutely not a target for an equaliser, assuming the frequency response of the reproduction system has already been flattened.

If you do that, you will be artificially lifting the low and high frequency components beyond what would be heard in live performance.  That might please some people, but it's not correct, and if you want that effect there's no need to hang on the detail – just do what a "loudness" button does and reduce the middle frequencies.
It's your privilege to disagree, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong.

Re: Loudness contol for Foobar

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Bogozo on
If you want to transform a feeling in a rational solution, you have to collect some biases and assemble them with some logic.
My feeling was that the low notes need to be raised at low SPL levels and less raised as you tune up the volume, therfore Fletcher-Munson curves cames immediately in my head with the idea to be totally parametrable.
Raising the "lows" implies to modify a large part of the spectrum if you want to preserve the tonal equilibrium, it is a very very complex work for me, i haven't succeed so i try a scientfic model to see what happen instead of doing whatever.
Copy-paste script and create some DSP presets, whitch DSP please ?

Quote from: fooball on
You have an idea of the shape of the curve and you try to find some scientific data to rationalize your thinking, wihich curve would you take ?