Skip to main content ↑ ↓

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive... (Read 7513 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/15/12480856/select-dac-ii-amplifier-audiophile-experience
Quote
You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive headphone system
US billionaire Warren Buffett likes to note how little advantage his considerable wealth secures him over the average person. He still wears pants like everyone else, lives in a modest house, and uses the sort of technology that’s accessible to the masses. The only thing, Buffett would argue, that distinguishes his privilege is being able to fly in his own jet and travel faster and more conveniently than everyone else. All the other luxuries out in the world are valueless to Mr. Buffett, but I would venture to suggest one that he might be interested in: the $130,000 MSB Select DAC and headphone amplifier combo, the world’s most expensive headphone system.
I like to think Warren Buffet would slap this guy with a dead fish just for saying that. If I know Buffet well enough, he says that cause he doesn't like ostentatious bullshit and this would be the epitome of that.

Choice comments from Mr. Author, maybe we can play some audiophool bingo:

Quote
Yes, there’s plenty of snake oil and nonsensical fluff talk in the world of high-end audio, but this isn’t that. And blind-testing this rig against a $130 set of cans would be embarrassing for all parties involved. It’s like asking if people can tell the difference between a black and white TV and one with HDR colour.

Quote
Are you conscious of the implication in your question that I’m not at all a credible witness? It’s as if all of the high praise I’ve written above is some press release I’ve regurgitated instead of my own, sincerely held beliefs. It’s destructive to any further conversation if you’re going to take the word of someone who’s experienced it and just dismiss that judgment out of hand.

Your question is doubly silly because I, not at all a trained audio engineer or much of an audiophile, can easily tell the difference between $130 headphones and $1,000 ones. You’re crossing past the position of healthy skepticism into the realm of aggressive cynicism (insert reddit joke here).

Quote
The thing we can probably agree on is something another reader raised with me via email: the MSB Select setup is probably not that much better than the SR-009 headphones with a $10,000 amp + DAC combo. If you were to ask my amateur ears to do a blind test between those, there’s a chance I might not tell the difference.

No self-awareness at all:
Quote
What does "worth" or "value" even mean? To you and I, this wouldn’t be a justifiable expense even if it included a perpetual motion and you could use it to power your house. Fine, I get that.

But what if you have millions upon millions? Wouldn’t this be worth more than some tricked-out limousine? I would say yes, definitely. I’ve been Rolls-Royces and Bentleys and they’re frankly unpleasantly gaudy and not exceptional in any meaningful way. This audio system is.

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #3 –
Just to add a few numbers to make clearer what bullshit this is:

They claim 173 dB of dynamic range, with a maximum output level of 3.5 Vrms on the balanced output. This means that the noise floor on the output would have to be just below 8 nVrms, assuming measurement with a 20 kHz bandwidth. Yes, nano-Volt.

The noise density would have to be ~55 pV/rtHz, which is equivalent to the noise density of a resistor of 180 mOhm at room temperature. Yes, milli-Ohm.

Apart from the fact that this is practically impossible to achieve by quite a large margin, there's no amplifier available, either, which could match that in input noise, for pretty much the same reasons rooted in physics.

Hence the specifications are an outright lie, and a gross one at that. They can only be meant for people who don't know what they mean, who just go for the biggest numbers. Which of couse matches the price.

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #4 –
I've also got a couple of comments on their measurement diagram further down on their product page:

The top left corner of the picture says what the FFT setup was. At 48 kHz sampling rate and 1 million points, the bin width amounts to ~23 mHz. For an apparent noise floor at around -200 dBV, as shown on the bottom of the diagram (light blue line), the measurement system would have to have an inherent noise density of around 600 pV/rtHz, which is very good for a measurement preamp, but quite feasible.

However, an FFT with such settings has a "process gain" of around 57 dB, so the real noise floor of the measured device ends up this much higher than shown on the plot. If the plot is at around -189 dBV as shown for their most expensive DAC, the real value would be around -132 dBV. If they measured the balanced output which sports a maximum output voltage of 11 dBV, the resulting dynamic range would be an excellent 143 dB. However, they might have normalized the measurement to 0 dBV to eliminate the impact of maximum output voltage on the measured values, in which case we would have 132 dB of actual dynamic range. Their specification of the amplitude of the input signal suggests the latter, but it isn't clear from the description which it was. Of course this assumes that they didn't otherwise cheat, which is far from clear, given their apparent inclination to lie. For example, the alleged "High-End Sigma Delta DAC" that yielded the orange line at around -127 dBV would in real life have a dynamic range of 70 dB, assuming normalized values, which would be ridiculous. In any case, such figures can all be arrived at within the boundaries of 24-bit wordlength.

Now, to be sure, either 143 or 132 dB would still be very good, and they have the advantage that they wouldn't require circuitry that is operated in liquid helium. So depending on the way they measured, they cheat by some 30 to 41 dB, give or take a few. However, their way of measuring the converter with a low-level input signal completely misses any artefacts that occur at higher levels. Depending on their implementation, such artefacts may well be substantial. This makes it very misleading to specify any ENOB figure this way, since ENOB is usually measured with input signals of near full scale, in order to catch such large-scale nonlinearities. Of course their measurement preamp would be overdriven with such signals, so there would be a need for at least two separate measurements, one high-level and one low-level, to get a clear picture of the DACs performance.

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #5 –
It's no secret that the marketing division can create FFT noise plots such that they look incredibly low noise, but in reality are not.

All the following graphs use the same signal  (random numbers ranging from -1.0 to +1.0 attenuated by -130 dB):
Code: [Select]
signal = (rand(N).*2-1).*10^(-130/20);
resulting in an RMS value of -134.8 dB.


FFT size = 1M
-> 1M.png

FFT size = 1k
-> 1k.png

... of course. That's what happens when you plot noise like tones (in a linear spectrum). The noise bandwidth of the windows is a 1/1000th for the 1M plot. Also, with some more averaging these lines would get even "flatter".


Of course you could also plot the noise spectral density. Then the graph will not change regardless of FFT size or even window function if done right. (The -175.4 dB translates into 1.7 nV/sqrt(Hz).)
"I hear it when I see it."

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #6 –
Quote from: xnor on
It's no secret that the marketing division can create FFT noise plots such that they look incredibly low noise, but in reality are not.
Well, of course. What is obvious to anyone knowledgeable in the field, escapes the comprehension of the average punter out there. Thankfully, the manufacturer has provided this single inflated figure for the dynamic range, which makes the lie very obvious. That can't be the result of a lack of competence, it must be deliberate, and designed to fool the layman rather than the expert.

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #7 –
Here's the same kind of plot as my first one (1M) but this time just a -90 dBFS sine quantized to 22.5 bits with triangular dither.

-> 22b5-tri.png


Such visualization even makes 10 bit quantization look good. ;)
"I hear it when I see it."

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #8 –
Quote
I like to think Warren Buffet would slap this guy with a dead fish just for saying that.
:D :D :D

ANY rational person would slap this guy with a dead fish!

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #9 –
I knew MSB's ENOB stands for either nonsense or bullshit when I saw the ridiculous 28.5 value so I posted here to get some responses. I don't know much about FFT but fiddling with the analyzers settings come from DAWs or plugins do make big differences in appearance of graphs. However if they did not change the parameters and test conditions the results from different devices should still be comparable to a certain extent right? If they only changed the rule when they tested their own device then it is simply a scam.

This thread reminds me of this:
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,107527.msg882139.html#msg882139

Creative claimed the X-Fi XtremeMusic has 109dB DAC SNR in their specs
http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=53609

I used the X-Fi Titanium HD (119dB loopback performance) to test the XtremeMusic and got 109dB exactly in my RMAA test
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,104556.msg858334.html#msg858334

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #10 –
Quote from: bennetng on
I knew MSB's ENOB stands for either nonsense or bullshit when I saw the ridiculous 28.5 value so I posted here to get some responses. I don't know much about FFT but fiddling with the analyzers settings come from DAWs or plugins do make big differences in appearance of graphs. However if they did not change the parameters and test conditions the results from different devices should still be comparable to a certain extent right? If they only changed the rule when they tested their own device then it is simply a scam.
Their claimed SNR values are clearly a lie. The FFT curves on their diagram are misleading at best, for example what they showed for the alleged High-End-DAC is ridiculous, compared to the other curves. This kills their credibility with regards to measurements entirely, IMHO.

Noise measurements are a surprisingly deep topic, with lots of factors to consider, which unfortunately makes it fairly easy to confuse things, either accidentally or deliberately. Besides the peculiarities of showing noise spectra generated using an FFT, which produce different results for the same signal, depending on the measurement settings, there are more factors to consider when measuring noise or signal to noise as a single number. As a minimum, there's (1) the measurement bandwidth, (2) a potential weighting curve, and (3) the chosen detector with its ballistics. All of them change the value measured, so that you can't usefully compare measurements unless they were made with the same settings of the instrument, which of course have to be documented.

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #11 –
The manufacturer, MSB,  claims to do 'blind A/B' testing

Quote
Dear all, I’m Frank and responsible for MSB in Europe:

MSB develops products done with blind A/B testing. When we develop new technologies, a panel of experienced listeners goes into the msb listening room and listens to the new developments.

This is done by 1 person (Mostly Jonathan) changing for example the volume control, saying this is A… then we listen to some tracks, we go to B and listen again. The listening pannel can’t see the modules / changes he’s doing as the equipment is behind a curtain or board. After each track, we give feed back and Jonathan writes it down. He changes the volume modules and says A or B (and sometimes B is A so we have truly no clue) …

After testing different modules and writing all the comments he finalizes by commenting on our hearing / evaluation and the results. The volume modules that are most consistent chosen as the best…will be the final production.
We do this if we’re testing new transformers, dac modules…etc etc..Everything is blind tested before it goes into production.

So we have a very open A/B testing going on. I challenge readers to do the same.

The price: A ferrari brings you from A – B … an old fiat 500 also… why does it have to be expensive… well because engineering to maximize the performance is expensive. But if you can’t afford a Ferrari and never driven one… you should not compare it to your volkswagen Vlad describes an experience he and many other listeners had and we at MSB are glad we could give him this experience. …

The display is a display that is completely synced outside of the clock signal for the music. So if it’s on or of, it doesn’t interfere with the music reproduction (talking about engineering things to the max :blush: … and yes it’s big but it can be switched off…

If you want to know some technical details…. check the MSB website: http://www.msbtech.com/products/dac5comp.php?Page=platinumHome

And you may be interested what a client wrote at a Matej Isak, about our Select DAC

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/08/msb-select-dac-ii-impactletter.html

Enjoy the music and hope to see you on one of our next shows in Europe / Asia or the US to listen and enjoy the music… smile:

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #12 –
Quote from: andy o on
http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/15/12480856/select-dac-ii-amplifier-audiophile-experience
Quote
You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive headphone system
US billionaire Warren Buffett likes to note how little advantage his considerable wealth secures him over the average person. He still wears pants like everyone else, lives in a modest house, and uses the sort of technology that’s accessible to the masses. The only thing, Buffett would argue, that distinguishes his privilege is being able to fly in his own jet and travel faster and more conveniently than everyone else. All the other luxuries out in the world are valueless to Mr. Buffett, but I would venture to suggest one that he might be interested in: the $130,000 MSB Select DAC and headphone amplifier combo, the world’s most expensive headphone system.
I like to think Warren Buffet would slap this guy with a dead fish just for saying that. If I know Buffet well enough, he says that cause he doesn't like ostentatious bullshit and this would be the epitome of that.

Agreed. except that Buffet would have to give this guy enough credibility for it to worth his while to be that engaged with his lies and put forth the effort it would take to give the author the well-deserved beating around the head and shoulders.

Pseudo-jounalism like the above show that most people who insult other people's intelligence aren't smart enough to realize that is what thy are doing.

The author isn't even doing a good job of lying. If he was, he would first be writing something that is believable on its face, some thing that is credible because he's established reasonable cause for him being credible when he claims to know that Buffet is thinking, and actually interesting and relevant if it were true. Three strikes and he's out.

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #13 –
Two words: "Sponsored content". The Verge has to make money, so it's rewritten a press release by said company, added some fluff to make it seem passably "journalistic", and done. It doesn't matter whether Buffett thinks this way or not; all that matters is that they pique the interest of people who are sufficiently loaded to drop $100k on a dinky toy that they can then talk about as "the $100k dinky toy". And for that it doesn't even really matter that this is a fairly transparent attempt at advertising.

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #14 –
Quote
Yes, there’s plenty of snake oil and nonsensical fluff talk in the world of high-end audio, but this isn’t that. And blind-testing this rig against a $130 set of cans would be embarrassing for all parties involved. It’s like asking if people can tell the difference between a black and white TV and one with HDR colour.

I am really sick of the "It's so obvious that I don't need to blind test it" crowd.

And The Verge really has been slowly going downhill since it's inception.  The main editors left Engadget and formed their own blog, thinking they'd take off, since they had TV connections and would appear on late night talk shows.  These days I feel like half the site is sponsored content.

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #15 –
One truth to this whole exercise is that from the day we are born, our hearing sensitivity declines.  Warren Buffet, at his age, likely relies on hearing aids.  Did anyone put those through such rigorous testing?  Hearing aids are "tuned" to accentuate human speach, not music.

Take five people of different ages and backgrounds  and give them comprehensive hearing tests, the curves will be different for every one of them, even if they are all 'normal'. The musician will likely be on the low end, unfortunately.

The decision on what audio equipment is best is purely subjective. It cannot be quantified.  Every person hears the frequencies, peak and valleys; rich tones and thin; overtones or overdistortion . . .  we all hear and perceive the sound in a unque way.  I'm sorry, but quite honestly all this hype about specs is pure nonsense.  Speaking personally, I always thought that I could hear every nuance.  I was getting upset that people tend to mumble all the time.  Whatever happened to enunciation?  My doctor sent me for a hearing test and now I wear hearing aids.

To quote a lyric of an old song (but then I'm ...)  by Buffy Saint-Marie, "You don't know what you've got 'till its gone".  [Put Up a Parking Lot].  Value your hearing and protect it my friends, and not just so you can buy the "best" new audio gear.

Maybe I am saying that there is no such thing as an audiophile . . . just a person who is easily parted from his money.

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #16 –
Quote from: DrBinns on
To quote a lyric of an old song (but then I'm ...)  by Buffy Saint-Marie, "You don't know what you've got 'till its gone".  [Put Up a Parking Lot].  Value your hearing and protect it my friends, and not just so you can buy the "best" new audio gear.
I'm saving up for hearing aids right now. Lost a whole octave in the past year. I wish there was something else medicine could do for this age-related loss, but there isn't. I wish there was something they could do for failing memory, too, but I just happen to remember this one: your song, Big Yellow Taxi is by Joni Mitchell  ;D
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on
Quote from: DrBinns on
To quote a lyric of an old song (but then I'm ...)  by Buffy Saint-Marie, "You don't know what you've got 'till its gone".  [Put Up a Parking Lot].  Value your hearing and protect it my friends, and not just so you can buy the "best" new audio gear.
I'm saving up for hearing aids right now. Lost a whole octave in the past year. I wish there was something else medicine could do for this age-related loss, but there isn't. I wish there was something they could do for failing memory, too, but I just happen to remember this one: your song, Big Yellow Taxi is by Joni Mitchell  ;D
Very familiar with that one. The wikipedia article doesn't even mention a cover by Saint-Marie.

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #18 –
Lively discussion.  A private Jet would be nice, but if you fly a lot in business class on the same airline they will treat you very well.  I bet there are lots of combinations of DAC's and headphone amps out there for under $1000 which would sound indistinguishable from the megabuck stack.
 

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #19 –
Quote from: eagleray on
Lively discussion.  A private Jet would be nice, but if you fly a lot in business class on the same airline they will treat you very well.  I bet there are lots of combinations of DAC's and headphone amps out there for under $1000 which would sound indistinguishable from the megabuck stack.

That depends whether the megabuck stack has sufficient fidelity to be sonically transparent. If it has some audible nonlinear distortion or audible frequency response/phase problems there may indeed be nothing else that sounds the same.

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #20 –
Well the guy keeps writing stuff, I couldn't help myself this time and commented on his latest: http://www.theverge.com/2016/9/5/12799652/sony-signature-walkman-z1r-headphones-ifa-2016#392680739
Quote
Sony’s Signature Walkman and headphones are $5,500 of ridiculous
Hey, this time he's mostly right!

For the record, I don't think The Verge is on the take like it was implied above, I read it regularly and it's most definitely hit and miss. I think it depends on the writer, and this one is pretty consistent in his audiophoolia. Nilay Patel who himself is a controversial personality with the nerd tech audience, wrote IMO a very good piece about getting the 3.5mm jack out of headphones, I think I've linked it before here but here it goes again: http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/6/21/11991302/iphone-no-headphone-jack-user-hostile-stupid

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #21 –
Heh, my comment got deleted:

Quote
I wonder why these are "ridiculous", but not the $50,000 Sennheiser http://www.theverge.com/2015/11/6/9680990/sennheiser-orpheus-handmade-headphones-electrostatic-hands-on, or the most expensive headphone system that "you don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate" http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/15/12480856/select-dac-ii-amplifier-audiophile-experience. Maybe Sony should have set the price a couple of tens of thousands higher and made it more inconvenient to use in order to appeal to real audiophiles.

I didn't think it was too harsh or even trollish, maybe I hit a nerve.

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #22 –
I loaded the original article to find your comment. My computer bogged down under the weight of loading the topic on top of running Skype and TeamViewer, then went to sleep due to overheating. Darn late 2014 Retina 5K iMacs.

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #23 –
Quote from: kode54 on
I loaded the original article to find your comment. My computer bogged down under the weight of loading the topic on top of running Skype and TeamViewer, then went to sleep due to overheating. Darn late 2014 Retina 5K iMacs.
Did you use an ad and privacy blocker? uBlock Origin in Firefox blocked 30 items on that page but 0 in HA. Those scripts may cause heavy system load.

Now some people are discussing why some comments are removed in that page. :D

Re: You don’t have to be an audiophile to appreciate the world’s most expensive...

Reply #24 –
The Verge page is weird. It loads very fast on my iPad Pro 12.9 "content-" (ad-) blocker or not, and though that is a beast for a tablet, compared to a 2014 iMac it shouldn't be even close. Maybe it's the browser? I know on Android some pages including the Verge are impossibly slow on Firefox, but on Chrome they are OK.