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  • 2Bdecided
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  • Developer
BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Lossless FLAC MPEG-DASH stream, only available via Firefox.

Details here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/taster/projects/radio-3-concert-sound/inside-story

Audio here:
https://radio-3-concert-sound.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/

Doesn't seem to be geo-blocked.

Cheers,
David.

  • ajinfla
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Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #1
Works here, thanks David.
I like how the volume goes to 11, nice touch ;-).
Sounds great. Except for the temporal blur, but thankfully there is a BS cure.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

  • butrus
  • [*]
Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #2
Doesn't work for me.

Unforutnately the Czech radio d-dur used to provide a FLAC stream but stopped a couple of months ago :-(

  • Moni
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Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #3
Sounds excellent. Thank you!

  • uncleboko
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Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #4
Does anyone know how to record the BBC lossless stream using ffmpeg? I was wondering if the existing HLS stream m3u8 url can be adapted, or is it completely different ?
  • Last Edit: 16 April, 2017, 01:34:08 PM by uncleboko

  • uncleboko
  • [*]
Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #5
Testing has now finished.

Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #6
Lossless FLAC MPEG-DASH stream, only available via Firefox.

Details here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/taster/projects/radio-3-concert-sound/inside-story

Audio here:
https://radio-3-concert-sound.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/

Doesn't seem to be geo-blocked.

It is browser-blocked. I use Edge and Chrome and was blocked. Last time I looked both did downloads very nicely, thank you.

  • uncleboko
  • [*]
Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #7
Lossless FLAC MPEG-DASH stream, only available via Firefox.

Details here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/taster/projects/radio-3-concert-sound/inside-story

Audio here:
https://radio-3-concert-sound.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/

Doesn't seem to be geo-blocked.

It is browser-blocked. I use Edge and Chrome and was blocked. Last time I looked both did downloads very nicely, thank you.
It worked for me in Firefox ver 53 in Windows 7, I was able to capture flac stream using i.sound for Windows 7/10 which has option of retaining flac format. But, i-sound records any other sounds present through speakers. Better to capture lossless stream using ffmpeg, which needs a special patch and (to me) very complicated setting up. Perhaps a future build of ffmpeg will surface which supports format of BBC Lossless FLAC stream by the time it returns for the Proms in early July!

Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #8
Lossless FLAC MPEG-DASH stream, only available via Firefox.

Details here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/taster/projects/radio-3-concert-sound/inside-story

Audio here:
https://radio-3-concert-sound.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/

Doesn't seem to be geo-blocked.

It is browser-blocked. I use Edge and Chrome and was blocked. Last time I looked both did downloads very nicely, thank you.
It worked for me in Firefox ver 53 in Windows 7, I was able to capture flac stream using i.sound for Windows 7/10 which has option of retaining flac format.

I didn't say OS-blocked. I said Browser-blocked. To review, Firefox, Edge, IE, and Chrome are browsers. Windows 7, 8, and 10 are OS's. Get it now?

Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #9
Lossless FLAC MPEG-DASH stream, only available via Firefox.

Details here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/taster/projects/radio-3-concert-sound/inside-story

Audio here:
https://radio-3-concert-sound.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/

Doesn't seem to be geo-blocked.

It is browser-blocked. I use Edge and Chrome and was blocked. Last time I looked both did downloads very nicely, thank you.
It worked for me in Firefox ver 53 in Windows 7, I was able to capture flac stream using i.sound for Windows 7/10 which has option of retaining flac format. But, i-sound records any other sounds present through speakers. Better to capture lossless stream using ffmpeg, which needs a special patch and (to me) very complicated setting up. Perhaps a future build of ffmpeg will surface which supports format of BBC Lossless FLAC stream by the time it returns for the Proms in early July!
Someone's requested FLAC downloads as a future feature on the get_iplayer forum, but I don't know if anything will come of it.

  • probedb
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #10
There's an article on medium that Mozilla just posted in their newsletter about this....

https://medium.com/mozilla-tech/mozilla-and-the-bbc-team-up-to-deliver-concert-quality-audio-from-royal-albert-hall-over-the-web-52366d38ab5

Although I believe it's more about a future broadcast :)

  • uncleboko
  • [*]
Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #11
Any more info on capturing the lossless Radio 3 broadcasts with ffmpeg when they restart in a couple of weeks?

  • IgorC
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Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #12
Lossless has its purposes as archiving an audio.  And I use FLAC too for my music at home.
But streaming lossless just because “we can”? Sure we can but for what?

Raise a hand who has an issue let’s say with Spotify Premium Vorbis 320 kbps.
I haven’t heard one single issue with it and I’m more than familiar with artifacts of lossy encoders.
If there would be any public test for lossy encoders at ~256-320 kbps (forget about it at that high bitrate) then AAC/Vorbis/Musepack/Opus would have scores like 4.9999… +/- 0.00…01 literally.

Someone would argue that an internet bandwidth is high today.
Well, 50% of all internet connections are still ADSL/VDSL with unstable bandwidth. The average global internet speed is ~7.5 Mbps (as of H1 2017) while there are plenty of DSL connections as low as 3-5 Mbps. Imagine sharing 3-5 Mbps in one family (Netflix, YouTube, Spotify, web surfing, homeworking etc…). 
So, again. Do we really need lossless for streaming if codecs like Vorbis 320k is transparent for 99,9…% of people?

There's an article on medium that Mozilla just posted in their newsletter about this....

https://medium.com/mozilla-tech/mozilla-and-the-bbc-team-up-to-deliver-concert-quality-audio-from-royal-albert-hall-over-the-web-52366d38ab5

Although I believe it's more about a future broadcast :)
From the article:
Quote
The AAC codec is classified as lossy meaning the compression discards some parts of the file that you are least likely to be able to hear. Those losses, however, can diminish the richness and fullness of sound, particularly for serious audiophiles and listeners with well-trained ears.
"Richness", "fulness" and "serious audiophiles"?

What kind of sick joke this article is?

  • Samizdat
  • [*]
Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #13
This morning I plunk the BBC Radio 3 FLAC manifest.mpd URL ( http://vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/client_manifest.mpd ) into the VLC 3.0.0 nightly build, and voila! The music plays. Then, almost as though on cue, the muted horn does a "Waa-waa, waa, waaaaaaaaaaaaa," and the music stops. I try it again, because of course it's just a fluke. No, stream still only plays for a few seconds, then quits. Am I the only one?

Ironically, it may well be possible that my email a week ago to the BBC R&D department handling the BBC Proms 2017 FLAC stream, requesting that they put up the stream a couple of days early so bugs like this could be solved, is a success, but that I will still be sitting here with mute speakers long after the live music starts tomorrow morning (U.S. time).

Frustrating.

  • Gustav9
  • [*]
Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #14
I am concerned that there is no mention at all of the Concert Sound Proms broadcasts on the Radio 3 websites. Also no replies so far to Tweeted enquiries to Radio 3 and BBC R&D. Has the trial been abandoned? If so, why has the BBC not informed us?

  • Gustav9
  • [*]

  • uncleboko
  • [*]
Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #16
Lossless has its purposes as archiving an audio.  And I use FLAC too for my music at home.
But streaming lossless just because “we can”? Sure we can but for what?

Raise a hand who has an issue let’s say with Spotify Premium Vorbis 320 kbps.
I haven’t heard one single issue with it and I’m more than familiar with artifacts of lossy encoders.
If there would be any public test for lossy encoders at ~256-320 kbps (forget about it at that high bitrate) then AAC/Vorbis/Musepack/Opus would have scores like 4.9999… +/- 0.00…01 literally.

Someone would argue that an internet bandwidth is high today.
Well, 50% of all internet connections are still ADSL/VDSL with unstable bandwidth. The average global internet speed is ~7.5 Mbps (as of H1 2017) while there are plenty of DSL connections as low as 3-5 Mbps. Imagine sharing 3-5 Mbps in one family (Netflix, YouTube, Spotify, web surfing, homeworking etc…). 
So, again. Do we really need lossless for streaming if codecs like Vorbis 320k is transparent for 99,9…% of people?

There's an article on medium that Mozilla just posted in their newsletter about this....

https://medium.com/mozilla-tech/mozilla-and-the-bbc-team-up-to-deliver-concert-quality-audio-from-royal-albert-hall-over-the-web-52366d38ab5

Although I believe it's more about a future broadcast :)
From the article:
Quote
The AAC codec is classified as lossy meaning the compression discards some parts of the file that you are least likely to be able to hear. Those losses, however, can diminish the richness and fullness of sound, particularly for serious audiophiles and listeners with well-trained ears.
"Richness", "fulness" and "serious audiophiles"?

What kind of sick joke this article is?
I think that "serious audiofiles" generally suffer from "chronic emperor's new clothes syndrome"!!!

  • uncleboko
  • [*]
Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #17
There seem to be absolutely no clues anywhere as to how one can capture the BBC Lossless FLAC stream using ffmpeg. Is there an updated version of ffmpeg which will do this perhaps? Now that the Lossless stream has resumed, who might be trying to solve this problem?

I successfully recorded the Lossless Stream using i-sound for Windows 7/10 which can preserve FLAC format.

  • 2Bdecided
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Developer
Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #18

  • Klimis
  • [*]
Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #19
This morning I plunk the BBC Radio 3 FLAC manifest.mpd URL ( http://vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/client_manifest.mpd ) into the VLC 3.0.0 nightly build, and voila! The music plays. Then, almost as though on cue, the muted horn does a "Waa-waa, waa, waaaaaaaaaaaaa," and the music stops. I try it again, because of course it's just a fluke. No, stream still only plays for a few seconds, then quits. Am I the only one?

Ironically, it may well be possible that my email a week ago to the BBC R&D department handling the BBC Proms 2017 FLAC stream, requesting that they put up the stream a couple of days early so bugs like this could be solved, is a success, but that I will still be sitting here with mute speakers long after the live music starts tomorrow morning (U.S. time).

Frustrating.
Try it again, I tried it today and I'm an hour+ in the stream and all seem to work fine, no interruptions.

  • ev13wt
  • [*]
Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #20
Lossless has its purposes as archiving an audio.  And I use FLAC too for my music at home.
But streaming lossless just because “we can”? Sure we can but for what?

Raise a hand who has an issue let’s say with Spotify Premium Vorbis 320 kbps.
I haven’t heard one single issue with it and I’m more than familiar with artifacts of lossy encoders.
If there would be any public test for lossy encoders at ~256-320 kbps (forget about it at that high bitrate) then AAC/Vorbis/Musepack/Opus would have scores like 4.9999… +/- 0.00…01 literally.

Someone would argue that an internet bandwidth is high today.
Well, 50% of all internet connections are still ADSL/VDSL with unstable bandwidth. The average global internet speed is ~7.5 Mbps (as of H1 2017) while there are plenty of DSL connections as low as 3-5 Mbps. Imagine sharing 3-5 Mbps in one family (Netflix, YouTube, Spotify, web surfing, homeworking etc…). 
So, again. Do we really need lossless for streaming if codecs like Vorbis 320k is transparent for 99,9…% of people?

There's an article on medium that Mozilla just posted in their newsletter about this....

https://medium.com/mozilla-tech/mozilla-and-the-bbc-team-up-to-deliver-concert-quality-audio-from-royal-albert-hall-over-the-web-52366d38ab5

Although I believe it's more about a future broadcast :)
From the article:
Quote
The AAC codec is classified as lossy meaning the compression discards some parts of the file that you are least likely to be able to hear. Those losses, however, can diminish the richness and fullness of sound, particularly for serious audiophiles and listeners with well-trained ears.
"Richness", "fulness" and "serious audiophiles"?

What kind of sick joke this article is?


First off, thank you for the link, OP. Very nice!


The way Mozilla describes stuff only stems from not enough education mixed with what "normal" consumers want to hear.

  • cresco
  • [*]
Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #21
I was aware of the BBC Radio 3 'concert sound' pilot back in April and tried it out, with the Firefox browser.  I got poor results, dropouts every minute or so, but was awaiting the current Proms season to try it out again. The stream seems to work better now.

Is this lossless stream only available from here?

https://radio-3-concert-sound.pilots.bbcconnectedstudio.co.uk/        using Firefox browser, and here
http://vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/client_manifest.mpd

Second question how best can this stream be captured?  I can record it using Audacity with settings of 'Audio Host- Windows WASAPI', 'Recording Device - Stereo Mix, (Realtek High Definition Audio)'  But is there a better way? I had to have headphones plugged in to maintain a recording signal, so I assume there are some D/A and A/D conversions going on which ideally I would not want.  I do have available a USB DAC. If I set the Recording Device to USB Audio DAC, and Speakers to USB Audio DAC then Audacity seems to record the signal independently of the microphone and Speaker volume setting. That seems to indicate that I am capturing the digital signal, am I right?  But the levels are wildly different from the original recording and I do not understand why that is. When the volume controls altered the signal level I had them set to 100% and I checked that there was no clipping.  Using the USB DAC I had no control over the level of the recorded signal but it was significantly lower as can be seen of the sample waveforms in the attached picture. Can anyone explain the best way to capture the stream, and help me to understand what is going in in my two attempts so far.

EDIT - I should explain that I have tried to roughly time align my two recording attempts. They do not capture (as far as I am aware) the lossless stream, but a stream that I was able to reset to the beginning of a performance for comparison purposes.
  • Last Edit: 25 July, 2017, 06:27:42 AM by cresco

Re: BBC Radio 3 lossless stream trial
Reply #22
"It was good to listen to for lengthy periods of time too, as your brain is not working as hard to fill in the gaps that lossy transmission or streaming involves to imagine the quality degradation and horrible artifacts which aren't there."
"Textures can often seem more limited" - oh, the textures, they're all gone. (((
"you get no sense of the room in which it was recorded - in short something’s missing..." - I know that feeling... DSD512 kinda helps here, but not by a lot. Need to wait for technology to mature.
  • Last Edit: 25 July, 2017, 07:42:33 AM by Teddy_the_barber