HydrogenAudio

CD-R and Audio Hardware => Vinyl => Topic started by: Sir Pwn4lot on 2010-06-16 16:14:25

Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: Sir Pwn4lot on 2010-06-16 16:14:25
Hey guys. I'm new here.

Well, I've decided that I wish to take the jump into Vinyl. I've been ripping my CDs to FLAC level 8 for the past 5 years or so, and they sound great for a digital copy, but last week I heard an original mono pressing (1967) of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band on LP and I almost fell over in awesomeness. A Day in the Life = insane on LP. I can't stop myself any longer.

Firstly I'm 17 (today actually ), but I have a vast musical taste, mostly within the classic rock genre, or at least music from that era. I also like a lot of the original New Wave stuff (Television is amazing), some Punk (The Velvet Underground) and a little Metal if I'm in the mood (Led Zeppelin and Sabbath). Although I consider myself a diehard hippie at heart

Now, obviously I need a turntable, but I need some advice on which to get. I am absolutely clueless in this regard, and any help would be greatly appreciated. I might also need some headphones, although I have Z-5500 speakers, but I'm a little worried they will convert the pure vinyl sound to digital which would (amirite?) ruin in benefit of LPs, which is, as I understand it, a perfect sine wave in the waveform rather than the blocky crap offered by even SACD and DVD-A, let alone CD.

I'd also like to know if there are any good record shops left in Australia, or if not, where I can buy good LPs on the internet. I'm not too fussed about collecting at the moment, so reissues are fine as long as they aren't remastered and don't go through a digital process (because again as I understand it that will take away the benefit of analogue sound). I'm just looking on Amazon at the moment.

Thanks a load 
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: lvqcl on 2010-06-16 16:34:01
Quote
the blocky crap offered by even SACD and DVD-A, let alone CD.

Nonsense.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: Knowzy on 2010-06-16 16:43:38
last week I heard an original mono pressing (1967) of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band on LP and I almost fell over in awesomeness. A Day in the Life = insane on LP. I can't stop myself any longer.

I appreciate your enthusiasm and happy birthday!


Now, obviously I need a turntable, but I need some advice on which to get.

The first thing you need to think about is budget. Turntables can be a very expensive hobby (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/16794/Clearaudio-Goldfinger_Cartridge-Med_Output_Cartridges) but, to paraphrase the Rolling Stones, you can't always get what you want, but with a given budget, you can get what you need.

I'm sure several people will be around soon to suggest all manner of used turntables to find on eBay or local record shops. I'll defer to them.

If you're thinking about a budget turntable, I can pass on the advice I learned here in these forums:

Good luck!

Jeff
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: 2E7AH on 2010-06-16 16:55:55
Nonsense.

which reminds me on Steve Jobs:

[a href="http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/8559/applewwdc2010175rmeng.jpg" target="_blank"]
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: Knowzy on 2010-06-16 18:58:09
Quote
the blocky crap offered by even SACD and DVD-A, let alone CD.

Nonsense.

I think you'll find that few people around here will claim vinyl offers superior fidelity to modern digital formats, particularly at bit rates and depths that exceed CD.

Many claim they like the "sound" of vinyl better (warmer, more natural, etc), which is a matter of personal taste. Others point to the "loudness war (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=50568)" in digital media that vinyl is seemingly more impervious to.

But calling DVD-A's representation of a sine wave blocky crap and vinyl's representation perfect is, well, nonsense.

Again, listen to the samples (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=69601) I provided. The CD and LP versions are side-by-side. Granted the turntables are very low end and vinyl can sound much, much better on more expensive turntables. But the LP's fidelity limitations are quite pronounced in the samples.

I might also need some headphones, although I have Z-5500 speakers, but I'm a little worried they will convert the pure vinyl sound to digital which would (amirite?) ruin in benefit of LPs...

Speakers are analog devices. The amplifiers that drive them are also analog on the way out.

The more appropriate question here is whether your amplifier (http://www.logitech.com/en-us/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/224) will convert the analog vinyl signal into digital before it comes back out analog. I expect that's the case but I'm not familiar enough with such circuitry to say for certain.

You could achieve this certainty while going head-on into "warm" analog sound by investing in a tube amplifier. But here again, you won't be achieving higher fidelity, just a more vintage sound.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: greynol on 2010-06-16 19:10:19
I think you'll find that few people around here will claim vinyl offers superior fidelity to modern digital formats, particularly at bit rates and depths that exceed CD.

No knowledgeable person here will claim vinyl offers superior fidelity to the bit depth of CD nor will he suggest that the sample rate of CD is no less adequate to cover the perceptible range of human hearing for musical content.

Others point to the "loudness war (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=50568)" in digital media that vinyl is seemingly more impervious to.

Thankfully you used the word seemingly, as this is also nonsense.

You could achieve this certainty while going head-on into "warm" analog sound by investing in a tube amplifier. But here again, you won't be achieving higher fidelity, just a more vintage sound.

Where vintage sound = lower fidelity, assuming that fidelity means the ability to reproduce the recorded sound most faithfully (IOW, without coloration).
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: DVDdoug on 2010-06-16 19:24:44
Quote
but last week I heard an original mono pressing (1967) of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band on LP and I almost fell over in awesomeness.
When an LP sounds better than the CD, it's NOT because "analog is better than digital."  If you digitize your LP and make a FLAC, it should sound good too! **

With older recordings, the better sound is usually attributed to the use of dynamic* compression during CD mastering (or remastering).  This is done to make the CD "sound louder"  (Loudness War).

There can also be frequency response variations.  Although all phono cartridges are manufactured to have flat frequency response, this is difficult to do with a mechanical/analog device, and all phono cartridges sound different.  These (normally unwanted) frequency responce variations can make vinyl "sound better" (or sound different) than digital.  (Of course, better/more expensive phono cartridges generally have better frequency response than cheap cartridges.)

WARNING -  Most older records don't sound that good (in my opinion).  The producers/manufacturers didn't seem that interested in high-fidelity...  Back in the vinyl days it was a rare treat to find a really good sounding record.    Plus, most 30 or 40 year old records are scratched and worn.



*Don't confuse dynamic compression with file compression (MP3, FLAC, etc.).  Dynamic compression reduces the dynamic range by making the quiet parts louder without boosting or distorting the loud parts.    This increases the average volume/loudness.  Apparently most music buyers prefer "loud CDs", or perhaps it tends to make a good first impression.  But, to many music lovers it makes the music boring.

** P.S.
If there is any "snap", "crackle", or "pop", on the record (like most records), these noises can be reduced or eliminated with software and the resulting digital copy can sound better then the original vinyl!
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: greynol on 2010-06-16 19:29:06
This is done to make the CD "sound louder"  (Loudness War).

It can be done (and has been done!) to make the title on vinyl sound louder as well.

The bottom line is this: you can perfectly capture the vinyl experience on CD, but you cannot do this in reverse.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: Knowzy on 2010-06-16 19:29:52
Others point to the "loudness war (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=50568)" in digital media that vinyl is seemingly more impervious to.

Thankfully you used the word seemingly, as this is also nonsense.


More on this in the Vinyl Mastering Wiki (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Vinyl_Mastering):
Quote
None of these restrictions explicitly say "hypercompressed, distorting music cannot be cut onto vinyl". Rather, that music may be more difficult to cut and play back than other music.



Quote from:  link=msg=710169 date=0
...the ability to reproduce the recorded sound most faithfully (IOW, without coloration).

That's a much more concise. I think I need to stop relying on the word "fidelity." Thanks!
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: lvqcl on 2010-06-16 19:46:33
about "blocky digital sound":

link 1) http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=583901 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=65398&view=findpost&p=583901)
link 2) 20kHz sine wave @44.1 kHz samplerate (http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5897/20khzsr441001ms.jpg)
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: 2E7AH on 2010-06-16 20:25:47
and if you google "analog vs digital audio" this image has most hits (among other funnies):

atoms got sucked from atmosphere, what's next - photon music?
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: 2E7AH on 2010-06-16 21:26:58
maybe it's ok for general signal processing, as for audio it deludes people to think that they are missing something at that zoom level (like OP wrote)

vinyl reproduction also can't look like smooth sine wave - more proper would be adding some noise dots + spikes around that smooth tiny line

Quote
Most audio editors represent the waveform as a series of stair-steps

maybe they should interpolate than, like CEP does:

(http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3451/sshot1k.th.png) (http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3451/sshot1k.png)

maybe others just connects dots, but drawing bars with discontinuities is obviously pretentious

[edit] added screenshot

Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: dv1989 on 2010-06-16 21:43:51
It's obvious enough, but no one has said it, so:
Well, I've decided that I wish to take the jump into Vinyl. I've been ripping my CDs to FLAC level 8 for the past 5 years or so, and they sound great for a digital copy, but last week I heard an original mono pressing (1967) of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band on LP and I almost fell over in awesomeness. A Day in the Life = insane on LP. I can't stop myself any longer.

Please research the placebo effect, ABX testing (with reference to this forum's ToS8 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3974)), etc.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: jazzfan1948 on 2010-06-17 06:21:22
Hey, we are getting way off topic here!  This kid asked for a little advice, and we are getting hip-deep in theory.  Here are a few cents worth of my experience that I am willing to share:

1. Congrats on your birthday.  When I was 17, I was listening to the Beatles '65 mono LP on a Garrard Lab 80 through a home-wired Lafayette tube amp and a pair of British Leak speakers.  I still have the LP, but all the equipment has been upgraded a number of times.

2. While you can get a pretty good used turntable on eBay, I purchased 4 before I got a good one.  I suggest that you start with a Music Hall MMF 2.2 as it is reasonably priced and comes fitted with a properly aligned and good quality cartridge.  The MMF 5.1 is a delinite step up in quality, but quite a bit more expensive.  Another possibility if you are into retro is a Technics 1200.  This is a super-rugged unit that could last you for life if you don't subject it to the rigors of DJing.  Fit it with an Audio-Technica AT-440, and you will have over 90% of the quality of a unit costing 3-5 times as much.  Lots of "audiophiles" pooh-pooh the direct-drive technology and medium-mass S-shaped tonearm - but the fact remains that it works and sounds gorgeous.

3. If you like your speakers, they will sound just as good with LPs.

4. Get a pair of Grado SR-60 headphones, period.  They will sound good with all your components and cost a very reasonable amount.

5. Invest in a Discwasher or other record maintenance system.  I personally don't see the value of the super-expensive systems, but then the great majority of my LPs are my own and have been carefully stored and maintained over the years.

Good Luck and remember to enjoy the music!
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: analog scott on 2010-06-17 06:48:29
Hey guys. I'm new here.

Well, I've decided that I wish to take the jump into Vinyl. I've been ripping my CDs to FLAC level 8 for the past 5 years or so, and they sound great for a digital copy, but last week I heard an original mono pressing (1967) of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band on LP and I almost fell over in awesomeness. A Day in the Life = insane on LP. I can't stop myself any longer.

Firstly I'm 17 (today actually ), but I have a vast musical taste, mostly within the classic rock genre, or at least music from that era. I also like a lot of the original New Wave stuff (Television is amazing), some Punk (The Velvet Underground) and a little Metal if I'm in the mood (Led Zeppelin and Sabbath). Although I consider myself a diehard hippie at heart

Now, obviously I need a turntable, but I need some advice on which to get. I am absolutely clueless in this regard, and any help would be greatly appreciated. I might also need some headphones, although I have Z-5500 speakers, but I'm a little worried they will convert the pure vinyl sound to digital which would (amirite?) ruin in benefit of LPs, which is, as I understand it, a perfect sine wave in the waveform rather than the blocky crap offered by even SACD and DVD-A, let alone CD.

I'd also like to know if there are any good record shops left in Australia, or if not, where I can buy good LPs on the internet. I'm not too fussed about collecting at the moment, so reissues are fine as long as they aren't remastered and don't go through a digital process (because again as I understand it that will take away the benefit of analogue sound). I'm just looking on Amazon at the moment.

Thanks a load 



There is a wide range of possibilities when it comes to vinyl playback equipment. If you give us a budget it would be very helpful. One can spend anywhere from a few bucks at a garage sale to over half a million dollars for a full vinyl playback setup.

I don't know what the current state of record shops is like in Australia. Many vinyl enthusiasts go the old school rout of garage sales and second hand stores. It's a lot of work but one can find real gems for pennies on the dollar. Ther are several mail order outfits here in the U.S. that will ship to Australia but it ain't cheap. They do specialize in audiophile vinyl both new and used so you will in many cases get what you are looking for based on your reaction to the mono LP of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. Acoustic Sounds and Music Direct are two of the big ones. With both you will find a vast catalog and they offer excellent service. Many audiophile reissues of classic titles such as the ones you seem most interested in are often sonically superior to their original counterparts. Don't avoid reissues just because of the remastering.

There is great sound to be found on any and all of the current formats. The mastering is far more important than the medium. You will get much more variation in sound from vinyl playback equipment so that will be a factor. You have to take it on a title by title basis. There are no hard and fast rules about what version of any given title will be the prefered version and not everyone will agree in each case.

Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: greynol on 2010-06-17 08:18:05
Hey, we are getting way off topic here!

Overboard perhaps, off-topic, no.  The OP came in with misconceptions about sampling and reconstruction, what followed was an attempt to set the record straight.  That said, it is good that his other questions are being addressed.

Update, the discussion about soundcards raised by DVDdoug seems to be getting out of control.  I've split it off here:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=81687 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=81687)
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2010-06-17 12:38:17
Hey guys. I'm new here.

Well, I've decided that I wish to take the jump into Vinyl. I've been ripping my CDs to FLAC level 8 for the past 5 years or so, and they sound great for a digital copy, but last week I heard an original mono pressing (1967) of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band on LP and I almost fell over in awesomeness. A Day in the Life = insane on LP. I can't stop myself any longer.
Unless you have money to literally throw away, I think you should stop yourself long enough to figure out why the LP sounded better than what you have already. I doubt it was because it's an LP.

Do you have the 2009 remastered Beatles mono CD collection?
Do you have speakers and a listening room as "good" as the one you heard this LP in?

If you answered no to either of those questions, then you're not really in any position to make a fair comparison.

I have most of the original UK Beatles LPs (Parlophone / Apple / EMI) in mono and stereo. I hear a phase error throughout all original pressings of the mono Sgt Pepper LP - like the playback tape deck was slightly out of alignment (azimuth). Not everyone notices it, but I've heard it on enough decks to believe it's really there, rather than some artefact of my playback systems. While there's plenty of intentional phasing on Pepper, this doesn't sound intentional to me - though it's unlike EMI to mess something up like this back then.

I've never heard a US Capitol pressing, or the new mono CDs, so I don't know if the same error is on there.

Cheers,
David.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: Axon on 2010-06-17 18:53:09
Y'all are a total buzzkill

Re the OP. What constitutes enjoyment of sound/music often times cannot be reduced down to a simple matter of quality. Most justifications for vinyl on the basis of quality make this sort of fallacy and the inevitable conclusion to that thinking is tortured diagrams (like the stair-step plot mentioned earlier), flat contradiction with known facts of human hearing, etc.

It's much saner, and more honest, to simply not require a justification for one's preference for one format or another. It's an opinion after all.

Vinyl recommendations are entirely relative to budget. For under $200 you have no real choice but to go used, preferrably on the local markets instead of ebay, finding a good-running vintage deck that got good contemporary reviews (check vinylengine.com, old issues of Audio magazine at a library, old issues of stereophile etc). Always get a new needle/cartridge if you get a used deck. For $200 ish the AT-PL120 is considered pretty respectable and a few entry-level audiophile units start showing up like the rega P1, pro-ject debut etc. At $300 or more you're likely best off buying a SL-1200, either used or new depending on the budget. (I'm kinda leaving out the discussion on the phonostage here which is a separate and equally complicated discussion.)
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: dv1989 on 2010-06-17 21:50:10
Axon, you have a point. However, the OP ought to do something to verify whether vinyl really does sound as superior as he seems to think, or whether it was only the placebo effect. That was what I was trying to promote in my earlier post. It may save him from dropping a load of money on equipment, and perhaps vinyl versions of releases that he already owns.

FWIW, I'm one of those cynics (science-y types? ) that doesn't think vinyl can ever sound better than CD, assuming equivalent mastering on both versions. I wouldn't be averse to buying the occasional release on vinyl for the 'look and feel' of the packaging (larger size included), and the novelty of using a 'retro' format (perhaps on a really old turntable, for full effect!)--but certainly not for reasons of fidelity.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: greynol on 2010-06-17 21:58:56
The thing is that unless they are from the same master, ABXing vinyl and CD is sort of pointless.  Even when they are from the same master, you're not just ABXing the medium but the gear playing the medium as well.  This goes without mentioning that the output of each will likely need to be digitized in order to perform an ABX test, which probably won't fly for those who believe digitization can't possibly be a transparent process.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: Woodinville on 2010-06-17 22:06:19
Why do so many people leave the reconstruction filter out of the graph for PCM?

It's really quite annoying, and leads to a whole host of really BAD, completely incorrect misconceptions.

Now, to LP's, well, LP's have a rising distortion with level that can very easily result in loudness growth making the lp sound like it has more dynamic range than it really does.

For the "blocky" mistake please see 

http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/ppt.htm (http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/ppt.htm)  get the "ADC tutorial" and look at page 41. Page 41 shows at the top a sine wave under FS/2. each step below adds more IMAGES of the original sine wave all of which are above fs/2.

All of the "blockiness" is strictly, completely due to images that should be filtered out.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: greynol on 2010-06-17 22:09:11
It's really quite annoying, and leads to a whole host of really BAD, completely incorrect misconceptions.

I know you're late to the party, but please, let's not have this off-topic discussion all over again:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=710222 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=81672&view=findpost&p=710222)
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: DonP on 2010-06-17 22:31:12
The thing is that unless they are from the same master, ABXing vinyl and CD is sort of pointless.  Even when they are from the same master, you're not just ABXing the medium but the gear playing the medium as well.  This goes without mentioning that the output of each will likely need to be digitized in order to perform an ABX test, which probably won't fly for those who believe digitization can't possibly be a transparent process.


What you can do (with a big "IF" it's done well) is blind compare an LP against a CD made from the same LP on the same turntable and preamp.  In making the CD skip some of the niceties of removing clicks, low-pass filtering, etc, which would serve to differentiate the two.  You'd likely need someone else to set which is A or B for each round on a coin flip unless you want to get into computer controlled relay boxes.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: analog scott on 2010-06-18 11:19:47
The thing is that unless they are from the same master, ABXing vinyl and CD is sort of pointless.  Even when they are from the same master, you're not just ABXing the medium but the gear playing the medium as well.  This goes without mentioning that the output of each will likely need to be digitized in order to perform an ABX test, which probably won't fly for those who believe digitization can't possibly be a transparent process.



ABXing vinyl v. CD is pretty pointless period. OTOH blind level matched (this can be dicey) A/B preference comparisons IME are quite useful for picking a preference. But it is useful if one understands that the results will vary from title to title. Differences in mastering and vinyl playback hardware are far more influencial than the inherent audible differences in the two media. IMO the avid audiophile/music lover is best served by having both, making good blind comparisons between various masterings and investing in quality vinyl playback gear since that does makes a substantial difference.

Level matching is pretty tricky in most cases. Compression alone makes it impossible. Substantial differences in EQ are another issue. I am an advocate in level optimizing rather than level matching. That involves spending some time with each version and picking a level that best suits that particular version. That is how one will listen to that version in the end anyway.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2010-06-18 11:29:34
Does anyone think the OP is still reading?

Cheers,
David.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: 2E7AH on 2010-06-18 11:54:28
Probably not, he is teen so maybe changed his mind or forgot that he even posted, however we could always post a link to this thread for any other teen with blocky concerns about CD (or even DVD-A) vs warm bold vinyl response
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: analog scott on 2010-06-18 12:08:44
Axon, you have a point. However, the OP ought to do something to verify whether vinyl really does sound as superior as he seems to think, or whether it was only the placebo effect. That was what I was trying to promote in my earlier post. It may save him from dropping a load of money on equipment, and perhaps vinyl versions of releases that he already owns.

FWIW, I'm one of those cynics (science-y types? ) that doesn't think vinyl can ever sound better than CD, assuming equivalent mastering on both versions. I wouldn't be averse to buying the occasional release on vinyl for the 'look and feel' of the packaging (larger size included), and the novelty of using a 'retro' format (perhaps on a really old turntable, for full effect!)--but certainly not for reasons of fidelity.



Perhaps you should consider doing some propper level matched blind A/B comparisons using CDs and vinyl that were mastered the same way (not a lot of these things floating around, the Boyk Pictures at an Exhibition being the best example) using one of the better high end vinyl rigs before drawing any conclusions. Placebo effect can go both ways. I would think that would be something a science-y type would do. You might find the results quite surprising. I would suggest seeking out equipment that is notorious for it's euphonic distortions. Maybe you won't like that sound but I think it is worth trying with an open mind and open ears.

Then you might want to consider the issue of different masterings. The fact is most titles are mastered quite differently each time they are mastered. If a given title is mastered better on vinyl what do you do?
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 2010-06-18 13:16:03
Does anyone think the OP is still reading?


He couldn't have been a hit-and-run troll, could he? ;-)
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: pdq on 2010-06-18 13:24:57
Does anyone think the OP is still reading?


He couldn't have been a hit-and-run troll, could he? ;-)

He's probably just rethinking his original request.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: Sir Pwn4lot on 2010-06-18 16:07:44
Probably not, he is teen so maybe changed his mind or forgot that he even posted, however we could always post a link to this thread for any other teen with blocky concerns about CD (or even DVD-A) vs warm bold vinyl response


Nope still here. I've just been doing a little research. Looking at the SR80 headphones, but I'm not sure about the table itself yet. Firstly, thanks for the huge response I didn't expect anywhere near this many comments.

I have a total of about $750 set aside for this, although I would prefer to reserve a hundred or so for records to start out with. Amazon US seems to have a broad range (and I've ordered from there before), but I have concerns with their shipping process (which has left some of the hardcover books I've ordered from them a little damaged). I'm still looking for the internet record store (like how the Book Depository is the internet book site), but I'm sure I'll figure something out.

I didn't mean to make some sort of hate-statement against CDs, although looking back it certainly looks like I did. Sorry about that, you know how things get when you're excited. I currently have all my CDs ripped into FLAC in Winamp and they sound very nice, especially the more vibrant orchestral pieces (I have a disk of Mozart and it's amazing). I really like the scratches and muffles a record gives you though, it seems more authentic, as if you have some ancient bond with the artist 

Anyway, I'm just browsing the NeedleDoctor.com site for setups. Any advice on cartridges? Apparently they much improve your sound. Is it worth buying a $500 deck or a $400 deck and a $100 cartridge? Regardless, that is about my price range. If there are any standout setups in that area then I'd be very grateful for the recommendation. Headphones too  Preferably I need good high level reproduction in the headphones, but obviously I need the low end for darker music, and the general listening process.

Thanks for the overwhelming response guys, it's been a great first impression, and sorry for the initial comment
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: analog scott on 2010-06-18 18:29:04
Probably not, he is teen so maybe changed his mind or forgot that he even posted, however we could always post a link to this thread for any other teen with blocky concerns about CD (or even DVD-A) vs warm bold vinyl response


Nope still here. I've just been doing a little research. Looking at the SR80 headphones, but I'm not sure about the table itself yet. Firstly, thanks for the huge response I didn't expect anywhere near this many comments.

I have a total of about $750 set aside for this, although I would prefer to reserve a hundred or so for records to start out with. Amazon US seems to have a broad range (and I've ordered from there before), but I have concerns with their shipping process (which has left some of the hardcover books I've ordered from them a little damaged). I'm still looking for the internet record store (like how the Book Depository is the internet book site), but I'm sure I'll figure something out.

I didn't mean to make some sort of hate-statement against CDs, although looking back it certainly looks like I did. Sorry about that, you know how things get when you're excited. I currently have all my CDs ripped into FLAC in Winamp and they sound very nice, especially the more vibrant orchestral pieces (I have a disk of Mozart and it's amazing). I really like the scratches and muffles a record gives you though, it seems more authentic, as if you have some ancient bond with the artist 

Anyway, I'm just browsing the NeedleDoctor.com site for setups. Any advice on cartridges? Apparently they much improve your sound. Is it worth buying a $500 deck or a $400 deck and a $100 cartridge? Regardless, that is about my price range. If there are any standout setups in that area then I'd be very grateful for the recommendation. Headphones too  Preferably I need good high level reproduction in the headphones, but obviously I need the low end for darker music, and the general listening process.

Thanks for the overwhelming response guys, it's been a great first impression, and sorry for the initial comment



Not a bad budget actually.
Here are some possiblilities
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anl...on-Audio-RD-11S (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1281456345&/Ariston-Audio-RD-11S)
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anl...ic-Hall-MMF-5.1 (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1281400460&/Music-Hall-MMF-5.1)
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anl...;/Rega-Planar-3 (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1281207547&/Rega-Planar-3)

And if you are willing to go up a few hundred bucks this is a really fine table.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anl...p;/VPI-HW-19-Jr (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1281225318&/VPI-HW-19-Jr).

Nothing wrong with going second hand and all these rigs already have decent cartridges.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: DVDdoug on 2010-06-18 20:02:23
Quote
Is it worth buying a $500 deck or a $400 deck and a $100 cartridge?
Ahhhh, back on topic!

I don't have any advice for the turntable, but for an upper price limit on the cartridge, Shure's best (M97xE (http://www.shure.com/americas/products/phono/m97xe-audiophile-phono-cartridge)[/color]) can be found for under $100 USD.  I wouldn't spend any more that.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: Knowzy on 2010-06-18 21:23:40
I have a total of about $750 set aside for this, although I would prefer to reserve a hundred or so for records to start out with.

That is almost exact budget limit I set for the "Super Analog Turntables (http://www.knowzy.com/usb-turntable-comparison.htm#LP2CDSuperiorAnalogTurntables)" section of my guide (last discussed here (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=68133&view=findpost&p=612262)). I'm always looking to update and improve it.

The budget limit is a bit higher than Sir's considering:


Right now on the Superior Analog Turntable list I have:

I'd love to hear about new turntables that meet the full criteria (http://www.knowzy.com/usb-turntable-comparison.htm#LP2CDAnalogRequirements). The criteria is also up for debate.

Anyway, I'm just browsing the NeedleDoctor.com site for setups. Any advice on cartridges? Apparently they much improve your sound. Is it worth buying a $500 deck or a $400 deck and a $100 cartridge?

Yes, the cartridge is of upmost importance. It's also upgradable, whereas the rest of the setup may not be.

Whether or not you're planning to upgrade later will help you decide where to place the emphasis now- cartridge or turntable.

I don't think you'll be doing a lot of complaining if you get "stuck" with the Ortofon OM 10 (http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=66index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=66) that comes with the Thorens TD 190-2 (http://www.thorens.com/turntables/drives/td-190-2.html)!

Of course, there's a chance the turntable may not come with a cartridge at all.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: Axon on 2010-06-18 23:00:21
lulz, I was bored enough to google the OP name, which was more than enough to indicate that he is not a troll. (If you're the same "Sir Pwn4lot" I found results for, I have to cynically wonder how fun it was being a skeptic, in high school, in The Woodlands!)

Listening to vinyl on headphones is an entirely pleasurable/acceptable experience - that's more or less the only way I listen - but it is most definitely not the listening method vinyl was really designed for. What I mean by that is, headphones typically have SNRs and channel coherences so far and beyond what one finds with speakers, that the transient noise inherent with vinyl tends to become far more audible, and there isn't really anything you can do to counteract that.

On the other hand, headphones suffer none of the feedback issues in the bass/subbass region that plague subwoofer+turntable combinations, and generally, you get a lot more for your money from phones than from speakers, and of course they're vastly easier to transport (bonus!)

The bare minimum you should be looking at for a "serious quality" cartridge is an MM with elliptical profile stylus. Compliance is generally not a huge problem until you start getting into MCs or exotic tonearms. I can personally recommend the AT95E (a custom option from lpgear.com which btw generally has lower prices than needledoctor, at least for shipping to the US), but AT, Ortofon, Grado, Shure etc all have really good options under $100.

Generally, you will tend to get much better vinyl deals when buying stuff in person rather than online. New vinyl costs about the same everywhere and online used vinyl sellers tend to grade records much higher than they should be. That said, that involves buying a lot of used vinyl, much of which will want some cleaning, and you need to buy/clean/play a lot of records to make a cheap record cleaner pay for itself.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: MichaelW on 2010-06-19 06:27:30
I really like the scratches and muffles a record gives you though, it seems more authentic, as if you have some ancient bond with the artist 


+1 Clarity of insight, not confusing preferred sound with fidelity. It's a bit like the original instruments movement: a baroque violin quite frankly can sound scratchy, but sometimes it's right. Me, I'm glad never to have to deal with vinyl again, but if OP is into audio Lomography, and knows what that is, good luck. And it must be said, when I was transferring my old vinyl, the ritual involved in playing an LP did evoke memories.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: Axon on 2010-06-19 07:08:32
And then, of course, there is the music descibed by the artist as incomplete without surface noise. (http://bleep.com/index.php?page=release_details&releaseid=20864)
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: AndyH-ha on 2010-06-19 22:52:33
I have no idea about your local conditions, but over the past nine years I’ve purchased about 1000 albums from thrift stores, prices ranging from $0.20 to $2.00 each. There are some definite problems with this approach: there are many titles that will never show up in those bins, you have to search through a lot of old clunkers to find the more interesting ones, and you can never be certain of the condition before buying. Some scratches and scuffing can be difficult to see under their lighting conditions and I don’t know any way to tell about in-the-groove damage (from incorrect equipment setup and poor alignment) without playing the disk.

However, I have found quite a lot of very good music this way. I tend to look for things that seem potentially interesting but I’ve never heard of before. This no doubt gives me a better success rate than someone looking for specific albums. I use software to clean out the vinyl defects (those things that can be repaired), so I can deal with more surface damage than someone who wants to just listen directly, but I’ve run across a fair number of albums that seem to have hardly been played (and a few that were still sealed new). You may end up throwing half of your purchases back but if you aren’t intent on only specific performances, thrift stores can significantly extend a budget.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: greynol on 2010-06-20 20:34:51
I really like the scratches and muffles a record gives you though, it seems more authentic, as if you have some ancient bond with the artist 

...except there were no record players in the day of Mozart.  Maybe some day we'll see some of his scores where he put notations in for where he wanted scratches and muffles from some futuristic device to produce. 
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: DonP on 2010-06-21 00:06:22
but I’ve run across a fair number of albums that seem to have hardly been played (and a few that were still sealed new).


Not too long ago I ran across a few never-played 78's.  Luckily I have a friend who still keeps a turntable set up for that.

Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2010-06-21 10:05:25
I'd consider a decent used turntable.

My experience is different from Axon - I find vinyl through headphones is a bit painful. At least some of the imperfections get lost in the room with speakers - they're clinically laid bare with headphones.

I have over 10000 records, but I don't get the desire to buy new releases on vinyl - not unless there's something wrong with the CD mastering. So I guess I'm the wrong person to comment!

Funny how so many people get enthusiastic and nostalgic over the faults of vinyl, but very few get enthusiastic or nostalgic over the faults of cassettes.

At the end of the day, we're discussing big kids toys.

Cheers,
David.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: Axon on 2010-06-22 00:29:04
I do have to admit that you have to hone your zen listening states to enjoy vinyl on headphones. You will hear its imperfections every second of the performance so you must look past them. (Which isn't terribly bad advice in general..)
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: Emon on 2010-06-22 03:38:39
I remember reading a few years ago, of someone on HA who had or found electron microscope scans of vinyl LPs and found that, due to the material characteristics of PVC, vinyl didn't have that great of resolution because the material gets chipped away on a small scale, ultimately making it a discrete representation. I also remember someone doing the math and finding that an LP, even if made out of hydrogen atoms, didn't offer as much resolution as 24-bit PCM.
Title: Need help! First Time Vinyl Listener!
Post by: Knowzy on 2010-06-22 04:16:07
I also remember someone doing the math and finding that an LP, even if made out of hydrogen atoms, didn't offer as much resolution as 24-bit PCM.


I think you're remembering this thread (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=61758):

Quote
[Records are] made of the polymer pvc. One molecule of pvc is about 100,000 angstroms. This means that, if the cutters were actually removing single pvc molecules the vinyl records would have about 11 bits of resolution.


256 replies later, I don't think a definitive equivalent was ever agreed upon but it was a fun conversation!