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Topic: Differences in Portable Players (Read 4696 times) previous topic - next topic
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Differences in Portable Players

I read up somewhere that a properly designed DAC can accurately output an audio stream.

There are a lot of music players that vary in price. Dual dac converters. Some are in 500- 1200+ range.

What is point of these? I always see reviewers point out they have "increases details, heightened soundstage and better instrument seperation" than other players.

How would this be possible? If how a DAC works is just to convert an audio stream. As long as the amp is also well designed.

Re: Differences in Portable Players

Reply #1
The storage capacity and amp are the two key factors in pricing.

A crappy smartphone will have a DAC that works properly.  Even the Apple dongle has a DAC built into it.
JXL

Re: Differences in Portable Players

Reply #2
The storage capacity and amp are the two key factors in pricing.

A crappy smartphone will have a DAC that works properly.  Even the Apple dongle has a DAC built into it.
JXL
Thank you!

Re: Differences in Portable Players

Reply #3
Quote
I always see reviewers point out they have "increases details, heightened soundstage and better instrument seperation" than other players.
You are right to be skeptical...   There's a lot of nonsense in the "audiophile" community.  

Re: Differences in Portable Players

Reply #4
You could certainly be justified in paying a bit extra for a better UI, larger storage and/or compatibility with more file formats.

Re: Differences in Portable Players

Reply #5
You could certainly be justified in paying a bit extra for a better UI, larger storage and/or compatibility with more file formats.

Pretty much those are the points that are worth spending extra on.  You can also be justified paying more for a model with a better battery, too.

Storage and compatibility with more file formats are the ones I look at most.  The UI as long as it's half-way decent isn't as much as concern unless it's truly too crappy for me to use.  I usually prefer players that have wheels to scroll through songs, I hate the button scrollers.  If the UI interface is bad I check to see if there is working stable "RockBox" port available and if there's any issues with that port that could affect your enjoyment before passing it up if the storage is good but want to save a few bucks.

Re: Differences in Portable Players

Reply #6
Is compatibility vs "any reasonable portable headphone" any issue nowadays?
Impedance / available output volume ...?

Re: Differences in Portable Players

Reply #7
Is compatibility vs "any reasonable portable headphone" any issue nowadays?
Impedance / available output volume ...?

There's probably a few players that are designed for difficult to drive headphones but my opinion on those is that isn't as worth the money that could spent on other things that are much more worth it.

Easy to drive headphones are not all earbuds or IEMs either (a common perception mistake people make far too much), you can get some good full size headphones that are easy enough to drive.

Re: Differences in Portable Players

Reply #8
Easy to drive headphones are not all earbuds or IEMs either (a common perception mistake people make far too much)

What about the other way around? I would be surprised if I bought an IEM off the shelf and found out it was too hard to drive, but threads like these are for eliminating unpleasant surprises.
But too loud volumes could be an issue, I guess? If you hit the pain threshold at volume level 2 of 10 (or was it 11?) and destroy the IEM at 5, you have a bad combo.

Re: Differences in Portable Players

Reply #9
I read up somewhere that a properly designed DAC can accurately output an audio stream.

There are a lot of music players that vary in price. Dual dac converters. Some are in 500- 1200+ range.

What is point of these? I always see reviewers point out they have "increases details, heightened soundstage and better instrument seperation" than other players.

How would this be possible? If how a DAC works is just to convert an audio stream. As long as the amp is also well designed.

This discussion of DACs misses the most important technical points related portable music  player enjoyment. The first two technical specs that relate to portable player enjoyment are voltage output and source impedance.  Get these right and you can at least hear the !!@% thing, which I humbly submit are the most important aspects of a music player. 

Think I'm kidding - imagine that you have been sent to a desert island with a Samsung S5, one of the most popular mainstream phones, with its minuscule ca. 400 mv peak output and a pair of highly inefficient 'phones. You have all the music and electric power on the island and you can't hear $#!^!

In many cases, one or both are not given by the vendor's blurb, and sometimes they are great, but the vendor is unwisely keeping his light under a bushel basket.

Other factors like storage capacity and format of add-on storage, music file formats supported and ease of use are probably next.

Then comes DAC quality which can be broken down into the two most important specs which are dynamic range and frequency response, but both of them are so cheap to surpass the reasonable requirements for, that they might even be safely ignored.

Also, relatively sophisticated features like the DIY ear tuning provided by a little piece of software for Android called Neutralizer can be very significant to your enjoyment of your portable music player which well may be a phone or a tablet.

Re: Differences in Portable Players

Reply #10
Is compatibility vs "any reasonable portable headphone" any issue nowadays?
Impedance / available output volume ...?
impedance still can be an issue, but mostly in how it will change the FR by a few dB into a signature that subjectively might suck for some multidriver IEMs with stupid impedance curves(which sadly is fairly common in expensive IEMs).  actual electrical issues are rare. an IEM that would push the DAP into high disto at normal listening levels is something we learn about once every 2 or 3 years maybe. last time I read about this was with a samsung cellphone and a few IEMs(all below 16ohm).

my only personal situation where a combo IEM+DAP could be considered limited in loudness, is achieved by going a little extreme with some etykids (300ohm low sensi IEMs for the purpose of kids not being able to go as loud as with other IEMS), and a sony A15 DAP which has a hard time reaching 0.4V. it's the weakest stuff I've owned in my lifetime probably and is only as weak as some of the weakest ipods in existence. and still I reach reasonable levels, just not loud levels. but most IEMs will require 1/10th of the voltage needed for the Etykid and most DAPs nowadays will reach around 1 or 2V.

Easy to drive headphones are not all earbuds or IEMs either (a common perception mistake people make far too much)

What about the other way around? I would be surprised if I bought an IEM off the shelf and found out it was too hard to drive, but threads like these are for eliminating unpleasant surprises.
But too loud volumes could be an issue, I guess? If you hit the pain threshold at volume level 2 of 10 (or was it 11?) and destroy the IEM at 5, you have a bad combo.
ironically a DAP that is too loud at volume 1 is what got me into the audiophile world some years back. but since I've only had this issue once with the Xduoo X2 and a pair of fairly sensitive IEMs.  in practice, background noise is an issue for me long before I get to loudness issues.  but I guess the fix is the same.
and yes background noise even today is my main concern when I get a new DAP or IEM, thanks to idiots making gears for idiots. consumers seem to thinks that more power is always better, so we end up with stupid gain factors on DAPs and portable amps when anything made for IEMs should have at least something around -10dB or -15dB attenuation for practical use IMO.
volume levels being mostly handled by DAC chips, how low we want to get isn't an issue by itself(unless you're a bit perfect dreamer). but the analog noise floor on sensitive IEMS can often be audible at low volume level thanks to silly gain and/or garbage amp section.
the second idiot trend in the last years: crazy sensitive IEMs. stuff that will reach 90dB with 0.02V and a load that will drop as low as 5ohm on some.  it's like each side does the best for themselves in a lab, but never stops to consider what we'll plug into the gear.
for most practical situations it's still fine, the combos measure from fine to average depending on how the amp section handles low impedance loads, and noise becomes an audible issue only with real sensitive IEMs and people like myself who like quiet listening levels. nowadays everybody else enjoys his stuff and focuses his paranoia on discussing how we need balanced output for increased power^_^, to "better" drive a "hard to drive" IEM that's  usually a joke like 115dB/mW @1khz.  the public views on the DAP+IEM matters are so far from reality. but then again so are their views on electricity in general and pretty much anything else. welcome to the magic kingdom.

to stop my whining and say something almost constructive, simply avoiding extremes specs will tend to work just fine. same with headphones, as long as they are clearly portable gears, they will tend to work even better than IEMs as very few will have stupidly low impedances. since the old HD25, the general trend has been increased sensitivity for portable headphones too.



as for OP's question, this is purely my opinion as we'd need to examine case by case situation to mean anything objectively, I feel that the most expensive DAPs are mostly fashion statements for rich people. some don't even bother to provide top of the line measurements, they just put a big price tag on a fancy case and let debilitating marketing arguments do the rest like Sony and how they use better(than what?) wire on the battery and do the soldering by hand or whatever. nobody in their right mind would give a F, yet here we are. they are so not special in any way that they end up marketing a battery wire on 1000$+ DAPs.


Re: Differences in Portable Players

Reply #11
Thank you much everyone! I read everyone's posts really interesting too.

Absolutely AMP and impedance/FR stuff is affected also by our earphones too.

@castleofargh Im also happy to see you here. I watch headfi sound science area too!
Really good meaning on expensive daps at above range. Battery wire attached and soldiering by hand is definitely marketing push by sony kn latest zx300.

Premium soldiering and audio circuitry and wiring are nice marketing words.

But whether those are audible changes. Totally different thing!

Re: Differences in Portable Players

Reply #12
ironically a DAP that is too loud at volume 1 is what got me into the audiophile world some years back. [...]
Of course one could try things like http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-5mm-Stereo-Headphone-Jack-Audio-Male-To-2-Female-Splitter-Cable-Volume-Control-/311958327029
(Looks like if you want it cheap at eBay, you must either take a Y adaptor or a long cable ... no small thing that only fixes volume? I didn't check thoroughly though.)

Re: Differences in Portable Players

Reply #13
You could certainly be justified in paying a bit extra for a better UI, larger storage and/or compatibility with more file formats.
Pretty much those are the points that are worth spending extra on.  You can also be justified paying more for a model with a better battery, too.

Storage and compatibility with more file formats are the ones I look at most.  The UI as long as it's half-way decent isn't as much as concern unless it's truly too crappy for me to use.  I usually prefer players that have wheels to scroll through songs, I hate the button scrollers.  If the UI interface is bad I check to see if there is working stable "RockBox" port available and if there's any issues with that port that could affect your enjoyment before passing it up if the storage is good but want to save a few bucks.
Just get anything supported by Rockbox. That way you get a nice UI, and support for ~all formats. Some of the Rockbox targets also have microSD slot, so expanding storage is not an issue...
https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/WhyRockbox