Skip to main content ↑ ↓

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: Looking for new audio player, questions... (Read 10603 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Looking for new audio player, questions...

I've been using my Cowon S9 since about 2008. The volume button wasn't responding and now the spring in the on/off switch snapped and it's just not working. To be fair, this thing was well taken care of and used almost daily for 8 years so that's pretty amazing and more than I can say for most consumer electronics these days.

I spend a lot of time (happily) taking care of my media file music collection, ripping CDs and tagging them etc so I know my fair share about music files. What I'm wondering is whether the player itself even matters much anymore when compared to the quality of the headphones or the encoding of the music.

What do I want on this player?
- FLAC and WAV support (there is a reason for the WAV, it's not just stubborn audiophileness)
- gapless support
- would love if it had 24-bit audio support
- I'd love a nice touch screen because I really make sure my albums have good, high res artwork. I don't mind buttons for controls, in fact I think I might prefer them if the UI was really crap like it was on my Cowon.
- SD storage would be wonderful, if possible.
- I don't need any EQ, I want the files playing as encoded. No effects, or normalisers either. Just take my high quality file and play it straight, please.
- No shuffle functions. Can't stand them. I listen to one album at a time, I hate interrupting an album with some other random song from my collection.
- No radio, no games, nothing else. I just need to visually flip through my music and see the artwork nicely and 'put on a record' like I do at home.
- I'd love it if this was under 100€.

I don't need the lectures, please, about how FLAC files are pointless. How I'll never hear the difference while out and about anyway. I have a very good system for listening to music at home and I just want to be able to copy from there to this device and go on my way.

Anyone have any recommendations? I've even played with the idea of using my last phone (a Lumia 925), uninstalling all the apps and just running it as a music player with Win10's Groove app which is pretty great but I don't know if there would be a problem with that, qualitywise?

Thanks!

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #1 –
(Just in case, the reason I'm considering my previous phone is because Windows10 supports FLAC and Groove isn't a bad media player)

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #2 –
You can test the phone yourself. I'm not sure why you're asking about that?? There is also a preview of foobar2000 which runs on windows mobile as well.

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #3 –
You can use new foobar mobile on Windows 10. Good option.

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #4 –
Quote from: marc2003 on
You can test the phone yourself. I'm not sure why you're asking about that?? There is also a preview of foobar2000 which runs on windows mobile as well.
Cause I'm an idiot, obviously.
Several reasons...
- audio hardware specs related to reproducing music well on a phone
- possibility of built in compression algorithms on phone media sofware affecting any music files being played by the phone
- this particular phone's inability to handle certain frequencies or bitrates

What I need to know is what makes one media player $700 and another 100. It can't just be 24-bit audio playback, good UI, and storage space can it? There must be tech audio specs I don't know about that make a difference but those may only make a difference to people who really like to play with EQ on their DAPs and not for someone who listens to straight EQ audio files like me.

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #6 –
Quote from: tinpanalley on
- audio hardware specs related to reproducing music well on a phone
- possibility of built in compression algorithms on phone media sofware affecting any music files being played by the phone
- this particular phone's inability to handle certain frequencies or bitrates

So you don't trust your own ears and want to be told it's not good enough?

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #7 –
Quote from: marc2003 on
So you don't trust your own ears and want to be told it's not good enough?
No, I'm trying to learn from people who might know more than me. Is there a particular reason you're so abrassive or does my ignorance just offend you so much that you have take a sarcastic tone with me? This IS, if I'm not mistaken, an audio tech forum, it's not like I'm asking this on a cooking forum where my question would be ridiculously misplaced.

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #8 –
Quote
- audio hardware specs related to reproducing music well on a phone
Bad quality (any audible defects) should be the exception.    Its cheap and easy to build a DAC & headphone amp that's better than human hearing. 

Quote
- possibility of built in compression algorithms on phone media sofware affecting any music files being played by the phone
The file only gets decompressed at playback time.  

Quote
- this particular phone's inability to handle certain frequencies or bitrates
Just about any device should "handle" any standard sample rate or bit depth.    But, you might have to do some deep research to find out if the data is being resampled.   Since DACs only work at one bit-depth, the bit-depth is always  going to be re-sampled (re-scaled) if it doesn't already match the hardware.

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #9 –
Quote from: tinpanalley on
Several reasons...
- audio hardware specs related to reproducing music well on a phone
- possibility of built in compression algorithms on phone media sofware affecting any music files being played by the phone
- this particular phone's inability to handle certain frequencies or bitrates

None of those are likely to be a problem (and 2+3 are virtually unprecedented now that phones have the capabilities of general purpose PCs). 

Quote from: tinpanalley on
What I need to know is what makes one media player $700 and another 100.

The number of units sold is the main difference.  Most of the cost of expensive players is the cost of designing them and their software.  This is also why expensive devices tend to have terrible software too. 

Quote from: tinpanalley on
It can't just be 24-bit audio playback, good UI, and storage space can it? There must be tech audio specs I don't know about that make a difference but those may only make a difference to people who really like to play with EQ on their DAPs and not for someone who listens to straight EQ audio files like me.

No its just economics.  If you want good hardware and good software you have to sell a lot of units.  Audio players are very simple devices by modern standards.  The marginal costs of making more are very low, so its really just about paying off development costs.

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #10 –
Quote from: saratoga on
No its just economics.  If you want good hardware and good software you have to sell a lot of units.  Audio players are very simple devices by modern standards.  The marginal costs of making more are very low, so its really just about paying off development costs.

+1 to that.

Unless somebody messes stuff up (which you'd be able to hear), unpacking and playing a digital audio file is a solved problem these days.

If you're looking for a no-nonsense audio player as a standalone device, with a color LCD and at a reasonable price, I'd look at the Cowon X9 or Fiio M3 (both 8GB only, but support MicroSD cards). I've no experience with either, being an Apple user.

But if you already have a smartphone lying around and don't mind the size (that's my reason for still using a standalone iPod Nano), just use that instead.

Cheers
Kaspar

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #11 –
I second the suggestion for a FiiO M3. It´s doesn´t have a touchscreen though. And you have to accept that there are firmware problems. I own 3 dedicated FiiO players and they continued / continue to mature long after sales started. The FiiO M3 has been released half a year ago and the firmware still isn't finished. To my knowledge, it cannot even play gapless yet.

But: you would have all you want would you use a smartphone. Their audio quality usually is more than good and much better than you'd need, furthermore, they are far more flexible than a dedicated audio player. Changing supported codecs, for example? No problem. The only advantage my 3 FiiOs have - aside from a purely speculative sound improvement that doesn't exist - is their possible output voltage. You can drive low sensitivity headphones like the Sennheiser HD-600 without any problem. Not practical for a portable player, of course.

But there are many more disadvantages. Codec changes are close to impossible, their EQ is inflexible (in case you decide to use it after all) and because of their high output voltage they drain their battery pretty fast. Oh, I forgot: no touchscreen and a crappy low-res display.

I want to sell my FiiOs, wanna buy one? ;)
marlene-d.blogspot.com

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Cavaille on
The FiiO M3 has been released half a year ago and the firmware still isn't finished. To my knowledge, it cannot even play gapless yet.

That will never happen because the hardware is too weak to support it.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/780622/fiio-m3-ultra-portable-8g-64g-2-0-320-240-tft-50mw-flac-ape-aiff-in-line-control-ogg-mp3-aac-wma-24-hours-hifi-earbuds/780#post_12132263

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #13 –
Gapless support doesn't actually require anything from the hardware beyond basic decoding, so you certainly could do it on any SOC capable of software decoding mp3.  You basically just throw away some samples after decoding. 

Probably the issue is that those budget SOCs only have a tiny bit of RAM and come with more or less complete firmware to squeeze into it, so if the SOC you bought doesn't have a given feature, it'd be pretty complex to add it, if a company like fiio even gets access to it. 

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #14 –
First of all, @DVDdoug @saratoga @kpflugshaupt @Cavaille @Apesbrain, thank you for your explanations. Learning things about DAPs I didn't know before.
Now... what I'm getting from you all is that the X1 is perfectly fine (I don't need a touch screen) but that the phone is fine for what I want as well. I ran around yesterday with my Lumia 925 and three albums and the Cowon S9 I have that still works most of the time, spending half the day on each listening to the same albums. The biggest difference (apart from the annoyingly finicky capacitive screen of the S9) is the volume output of the Lumia. At it's peak 30, it is too low for several city environments. And I use earbuds. So that's one thing that stands out. Obviously the screen of the Lumia is better, looks nicer and the interface of Groove is great. Foobar has more options but looks awful, to be fair it's a very rough beta. As far as the S9 goes, I don't love Cowon's UI but it's the closest thing to File Explorer folder browsing mixed with something nicer to look at like JRiver Media Center that I run on my desktop.

Questions:
1. Is it the DAP or the mobile phone that is the SOC? Or both?
2. So, for someone listening the way I listen is it really true that I won't get any benefit from a DAP as far as the quality of the music goes? Apart from there being a serious audio level difference on both devices, that is.

I've mentioned this elsewhere and there appears to be no solution but one thing that drives me a bit bonkers about the X1 is the UI design choice to display the album artwork cropped when a record is playing.

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #15 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Bad quality (any audible defects) should be the exception.
High output impedance or wrong chosen output capacitors are not rarity. And they easily can lead to f***ed up frequency response with headphones.

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #16 –
Quote from: tinpanalley on

Now... what I'm getting from you all is that the X1 is perfectly fine (I don't need a touch screen) but that the phone is fine for what I want as well. I ran around yesterday with my Lumia 925 and three albums and the Cowon S9 I have that still works most of the time, spending half the day on each listening to the same albums. The biggest difference (apart from the annoyingly finicky capacitive screen of the S9) is the volume output of the Lumia. At it's peak 30, it is too low for several city environments. And I use earbuds. So that's one thing that stands out. Obviously the screen of the Lumia is better, looks nicer and the interface of Groove is great. Foobar has more options but looks awful, to be fair it's a very rough beta. As far as the S9 goes, I don't love Cowon's UI but it's the closest thing to File Explorer folder browsing mixed with something nicer to look at like JRiver Media Center that I run on my desktop.

The main limitation of most phones is that you get a few hundred millivolts output, whereas high end devices are usually more like 1-2 volts.  This is usually more enough for any sort of earbud though, so it might be worth checking if your phone has a volume limit applied in software.  IIRC this was common on my phones sold in Europe, and I see people complaining that the Lumias are much quieter than other phones on Google.  Perhaps this can be fixed/hacked around.

Quote from: tinpanalley on
1. Is it the DAP or the mobile phone that is the SOC? Or both?

SOC = System On Chip.  It is the combination of the processor, chipset, graphics card and sometimes DAC onto a single chip for mobile devices.   

Quote from: tinpanalley on
2. So, for someone listening the way I listen is it really true that I won't get any benefit from a DAP as far as the quality of the music goes? Apart from there being a serious audio level difference on both devices, that is.

Volume is the main difference. 

Quote from: Rollin on
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Bad quality (any audible defects) should be the exception.
High output impedance or wrong chosen output capacitors are not rarity. And they easily can lead to f***ed up frequency response with headphones.

These are very rare on phones, much more so than dedicated audio devices.  Remember some of the first widely mass produced devices with ultra low output impedance were integrated DACs on SOCs for iPods and Sansa Clips.  These devices had low output impedance because they were (often) directly coupled (no cap at all) to an amp integrated into the same silicon as the processor.  These designs were used in smartphone chipsets from qualcomm and samsung from the start, and only latter started showing  up in more expensive devices.  For this reason, its actually quite rare to find high output impedance mobile devices, at least from mainstream manufacturers.

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #17 –
I've been looking at review after review of the Fiio X1, watching videos and looking at photos over and over again and I just can't get over the fact that you don't see the full artwork on the X1 despite how fantastic it is as a player. I know that sounds stupid but that's just how it is. I do like that it doesn't have a touch screen because the Cowon's is so difficult to use that you often wish you had buttons to control the menu.
I'd also like to see if there's anything out there with USB3.0. Copying FLAC files can take a while if the USB port is really slow like on the Cowon S9.
If anyone has ANY other recommendations I'd love to hear them. I know USB3.0 probably pushes any DAP out of my price range.

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #18 –
Quote from: tinpanalley on
I've been looking at review after review of the Fiio X1, watching videos and looking at photos over and over again and I just can't get over the fact that you don't see the full artwork on the X1 despite how fantastic it is as a player. I know that sounds stupid but that's just how it is. I do like that it doesn't have a touch screen because the Cowon's is so difficult to use that you often wish you had buttons to control the menu.
I'd also like to see if there's anything out there with USB3.0. Copying FLAC files can take a while if the USB port is really slow like on the Cowon S9.
If anyone has ANY other recommendations I'd love to hear them. I know USB3.0 probably pushes any DAP out of my price range.

You said ANY so here we go; Sansa Clip+ was perfectly fine, tiny little player with expandable storage, rockboxed it too. After this I got fed up of having a phone and a DAP so gave my Xperia Z3 Mini a go with Poweramp....at this point I decided I didn't need a DAP. The volume doesn't go high on this phone although there maybe some cap on it. Now have a Galaxy S6 and still can't tell a difference. The volume goes much higher on this too. I've tried FLAC and MP3 (usually LAME -V 2) and cannot tell the difference. I listen with Westone UM Pro 3 IEMs if you're interested.

So I'd say they're all much of a muchness. You do not need to spend money to get a good player, in all likelihood your phone is fine. If you need more volume just get a headphone amp or similar.

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #19 –
Quote from: saratoga on
The main limitation of most phones is that you get a few hundred millivolts output, whereas high end devices are usually more like 1-2 volts.  This is usually more enough for any sort of earbud though, so it might be worth checking if your phone has a volume limit applied in software.  IIRC this was common on my phones sold in Europe, and I see people complaining that the Lumias are much quieter than other phones on Google.  Perhaps this can be fixed/hacked around.
Just wanted to say... I just found (ashamed I had no idea this existed) a full EQ on my Windows Phone 10 settings. It's currently set in the middle across the board. Can I just raise all those to gain the audio or am I talking apples and oranges here? And if that IS all it takes to get higher levels out of this as a player, how do I know high I can go without a) adversely affecting/distorting the audio or b) harming my IEMs in some way?
...thank you for your great, thorough info by the way.

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #20 –
Quote from: probedb on
You said ANY so here we go; Sansa Clip+ was perfectly fine, tiny little player with expandable storage, rockboxed it too...
Ok, I know I said "any" but I meant within the range of things I was looking for and a Clip is just way too simple of a screen for me. Also I have no idea what rockboxing is.

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #21 –
Quote from: tinpanalley on
Quote from: saratoga on
The main limitation of most phones is that you get a few hundred millivolts output, whereas high end devices are usually more like 1-2 volts.  This is usually more enough for any sort of earbud though, so it might be worth checking if your phone has a volume limit applied in software.  IIRC this was common on my phones sold in Europe, and I see people complaining that the Lumias are much quieter than other phones on Google.  Perhaps this can be fixed/hacked around.

Just wanted to say... I just found (ashamed I had no idea this existed) a full EQ on my Windows Phone 10 settings. It's currently set in the middle across the board. Can I just raise all those to gain the audio or am I talking apples and oranges here? And if that IS all it takes to get higher levels out of this as a player, how do I know high I can go without a) adversely affecting/distorting the audio or b) harming my IEMs in some way?

Adding digital gain will just cause distortion.  The low output volume on your device can probably be fixed in software (especially if its just a volume cap), but it'll be by adjusting the amplifier gains in your sound driver.  You can google and see if someone has figured out how to do that on Windows phone, otherwise you are out of luck.

Quote from: tinpanalley on
Quote from: probedb on
You said ANY so here we go; Sansa Clip+ was perfectly fine, tiny little player with expandable storage, rockboxed it too...
Ok, I know I said "any" but I meant within the range of things I was looking for and a Clip is just way too simple of a screen for me. Also I have no idea what rockboxing is.

Install an open source firmware I work on.

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #22 –
Quote from: saratoga on
The low output volume on your device can probably be fixed in software (especially if its just a volume cap), but it'll be by adjusting the amplifier gains in your sound driver.  You can google and see if someone has figured out how to do that on Windows phone, otherwise you are out of luck....Install an open source firmware I work on.
1. Ok, turns out you're right, there are certain phones that in Europe have a volume ceiling. I can flash another version of the phone's ROM from another country, and I could even use an online tool I know to find one that would retain my signal antennas, but I have no idea how I'd know which country to pick. Not many people talking about this online.
2. Ok, so gain isn't the same as proper output at correct levels. Thought not.
3. So, going by what you said before about where phones and media players are today, I should just pick anything I can afford that looks and sounds the way I wants and hits the specs I need and forget about whether it's considered a fantastic audio device by review sites, etc because these things are all performing similarly today?

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #23 –
Quote from: tinpanalley on
1. Ok, turns out you're right, there are certain phones that in Europe have a volume ceiling. I can flash another version of the phone's ROM from another country, and I could even use an online tool I know to find one that would retain my signal antennas, but I have no idea how I'd know which country to pick. Not many people talking about this online.

Is low volume actually a problem for you?  If it is, buying headphones with higher sensitivity is also an option. 

Re: Looking for new audio player, questions...

Reply #24 –
Quote from: saratoga on
Is low volume actually a problem for you?  If it is, buying headphones with higher sensitivity is also an option.
I've currently got a pair of SoundMagic E10. Yes, through this phone, the music is low at certain normal city noise. Not normally low, less than normal.