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Topic: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims (Read 5859 times) previous topic - next topic
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crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

I am seeing a lot of chit-chat on the internet regarding the claimed effects of VLF seismic waves on crystal oscillators in digital systems.  Apparently, this got started somehow and is being socially amplified.  The claims often involve frequencies of 10 Hz and lower form the seismic waves, and the claim is that it causes jitter (in a DAC I guess) and, further, that the jitter cannot be removed or dealt with as it affects a downstream part of the processing chain.

I am curious if anyone knows how this got started.  Also, if I have correctly stated the putative mechanism by the claimants.

(If this is the wrong section, I apologize, but I could not an abnormal psychology forum...)

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #1 –
If your equipment were affected by audio frequency vibration, then it would interfere with itself every time you used a sub.  This does not happen.

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #2 –
Quote from: saratoga on
If your equipment were affected by audio frequency vibration, then it would interfere with itself every time you used a sub.  This does not happen.

How do you know? Have you tried it? I have...
Regards,
   Don Hills
"People hear what they see." - Doris Day

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #3 –
Quote from: splice on
Quote from: saratoga on
If your equipment were affected by audio frequency vibration, then it would interfere with itself every time you used a sub.  This does not happen.

How do you know? Have you tried it? I have...

And the results were?

Some decades ago suspended a CD player playing a jitter test track
 above the woofer of an AR3 playing a 40 Hz tone as loud at possible without inducing mistracking.  > 100 dB SPL.  No signs of 40 Hz or other related  jittter in the output of the player. With that setup I could detect jitter-related sidebands > 120 dB down.

That is close enough to "Does not happen" for me!

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #4 –
Quote from: rw11 on

I am curious if anyone knows how this got started. 

IME there are people who monitor new product announcements looking for parts that show some promise of improving performance or at least obtaining better bragging rights.  In this case high stability clock sources have been around longer than CD players.

AFAIK crystal oscillators were used for CD player clocks from the beginning of the existence of CD players. The common alternatives are  ceramic resonators and LC circuits.   I'm under the impression that that they took some development to be good enough.

Rule of thumb - audible jitter goes away if you do a proper listening test. I've butchered digital audio gear to make it produce audible jitter and heard it, but never saw a piece of commercial gear that actually had any as delivered.

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #5 –
Quote from: saratoga on
If your equipment were affected by audio frequency vibration, then it would interfere with itself every time you used a sub.  This does not happen.

One word: tubes.

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: saratoga on
If your equipment were affected by audio frequency vibration, then it would interfere with itself every time you used a sub.  This does not happen.

One word: tubes.

Solid state microchips are better than any tube.

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #7 –
Quote from: splice on
Quote from: saratoga on
If your equipment were affected by audio frequency vibration, then it would interfere with itself every time you used a sub.  This does not happen.

How do you know? Have you tried it? I have...

It's show up as FM distortion on single tone tests when playing on speakers that goes away when using headphones.  I have never observed this.

From a simple mechanical view point this is extremely unlikely anyway. Coupling of low frequency waves into a 10 MHz tuned oscillator would require extreme amplitude.

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Chibisteven on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: saratoga on
If your equipment were affected by audio frequency vibration, then it would interfere with itself every time you used a sub.  This does not happen.

One word: tubes.

Solid state microchips are better than any tube.

Absolutely. But if you want to make equipment that is adversely affected by vibrations, and appeasl to the Luddite segment of the audio market, tubes can facilitate building expensive, low performance gear.

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
And the results were?

Enlightening.

It started with trying to reduce feedback from my 15" Altecs to my turntable. I set the stylus down on a non-rotating disc, then played music on one tape deck through the speakers while recording the turntable output on another tape deck. Subsequent playback of the recording showed where improvements could be made and allowed comparison of various methods. A group of us later expanded into testing other devices. We didn't hear anything that couldn't be attributed to electrical leakage coupling, although one phono preamp did faintly respond to being rapped sharply.

Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
One word: tubes.

Tubes, quite possibly. We never tried a tube device, though I have noticed some tube gear respond to the chassis being tapped. Some of the pre-war directly-heated battery tubes I used to play with when I was young were certainly microphonic.

Regards,
   Don Hills
"People hear what they see." - Doris Day

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #11 –
While it has little to do with crystal oscillators, the test that 'Splice' described would be good for all sorts of audiophile vibration reducing devices. But then most of the new type of audiophiles are not interested in real tests.

So low frequency digital jitter is bad, but low frequency vinyl LP and analog tape jitter is good?
Kevin Graf :: aka Speedskater

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Speedskater on
While it has little to do with crystal oscillators, the test that 'Splice' described would be good for all sorts of audiophile vibration reducing devices.

Back in the day, it was mentioned in consumer audio mags not infrequently.

Quote
But then most of the new type of audiophiles are not interested in real tests.

IME that's just the human state - it has been true as long as I can remember.  I know we heard many of the objections you hear today to ABX back in the late 70s.  "Nothing new under the sun" especially when it relates to human arrogance and stupiditiy.

Quote
So low frequency digital jitter is bad, but low frequency vinyl LP and analog tape jitter is good?

Typically, digital jitter is simply inaudible and almost all reports of it can be accurately-handled by attributing them to the Placebo Effect.

The inherent audible jitter in LP playback was the first thing that drove me to digital.

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #13 –
Being a millennial here.  I've never used a device that had any vacuum tubes in it except maybe a CRT television set and CRT computer monitor (a.k.a. picture tube part) if that counts at all.

Never used an audio system that had any tubes.

Wonder if it's mostly baby boomers and older generations mostly using these tube sound systems?

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Chibisteven on
Being a millennial here.  I've never used a device that had any vacuum tubes in it except maybe a CRT television set and CRT computer monitor (a.k.a. picture tube part) if that counts at all.

Never used an audio system that had any tubes.


My last stereo component with tubes in the signal path was taken out of service in the late 1960s.

Quote
Wonder if it's mostly baby boomers and older generations mostly using these tube sound systems?

There is evidence that high end audio is a boomer thing.

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #15 –
what millennials need is a tube based ipod ::)

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #16 –
Quote from: rw11 on
what millennials need is a tube based ipod ::)

Hell no to that.  Us Millennials would like better batteries that lasted a hell lot longer in our portable devices if anything.

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #17 –
Quote from: rw11 on
what millennials need is a tube based ipod ::)

Don't even breathe that out loud, or a new industry will spring up overnight.  It'll be like the Steampunk version of portable audio.

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #19 –
Quote from: greynol on
WTF? Tube-based iPod docks have been around for over a decade.

First I ever heard of it.  Seems more like a waste then anything else.

iPod docks maybe handy but not as much the 3.5mm AUX in.  But tubes?  Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.  Considering Apple keeps changing their ports on their products it really isn't all that handy as it used to be to have any iPod dock.  The Apple fanboy crowd will buy anything Apple even if it's utter crap, so if Apple puts out a tube based unit, people will buy it for sure, they probably be special Apple tubes made a certain way so they can have a patent on it, but probably functions the same as a regular one.

I'm an Android and Microsoft Windows user here.

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #20 –
I'm not aware of any commercially available tube devices by Apple.

There are plenty of 3rd-party audio jewelry placebo/distortion devices available on the market for portables; some of them from companies who will gladly sell you a replacement due to a connector update. Hopefully you're not thinking Androids are some exception.

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Nichttaub on
Quote from: rw11 on
what millennials need is a tube based ipod ::)

Don't even breathe that out loud, or a new industry will spring up overnight.  It'll be like the Steampunk version of portable audio.

I'm sure you know that a tubed iPod would be the size of a house and use power like an electric furnace for melting steel, and would break down before it even finished booting.

IOW, a truly tubed is a practical impossibility.
 

Re: crystal oscillators, seismic waves and similar claims

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Nichttaub on
Quote from: rw11 on
what millennials need is a tube based ipod ::)

Don't even breathe that out loud, or a new industry will spring up overnight.  It'll be like the Steampunk version of portable audio.

I'm sure you know that a tubed iPod would be the size of a house and use power like an electric furnace for melting steel, and would break down before it even finished booting.

IOW, a truly tubed is a practical impossibility.

That is what makes it such a great audiophile product.  esp. the steampunk version - wish I'd thought of that part...