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Topic: Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter (Read 11989 times) previous topic - next topic
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Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

I need something that will allow me to connect my PC, Raspberry Pi, Xbox360 and STB HDMI outputs and decode all audio formats (DTS, Dolby Digital, etc) to 5.1 (maybe 7.1) analog line level outputs.

The PC and Xbox360 will just be used for gaming. I'm not sure what audio formats they use (maybe Dolby Digital?) but whatever they use, the converter will need to be able to decode them. I guess I could just have the analog outputs from my PC going into a box that passes them through to the amplified speakers when the PC input is selected and just use the HDMI for video, if that is beneficial.

Whilst buying a receiver might seem like the easiest option, I live in a flat with very poor sound insulation and my living room isn't very big, so I have no use for more than a few watts and certainly couldn't use a subwoofer, thus spending £200+ on a receiver doesn't seem sensible. I also don't really want a bulky, power-hungry, heat-producing piece of equipment that isn't necessary for my purposes.

It will help to demonstrate how little power I need for my room if I explain that I have a pair of self-powered X-mini Max speakers http://www.amazon.co.uk/XMI-Portable-Speak...60_SR160%2C160_ which are fine for my rear speakers despite only being 3W, as they'll be just behind my head on the rear wall. I also have an X-mini Uno which is currently connected to my TV and I use sometimes when watching movies, as it has better presence and clarity than my Panasonic Plasma TV speakers, so makes it easier to hear the dialogue, whilst the TV speakers provide the bass/body of the soundtrack, so I could use that for a centre speaker and it's loud enough for my purposes. A nice advantage with these small, lightweight speakers is that I've been able to mount the rear ones to the underside of a shelf that's on my rear wall using these magnetic car phone mounts http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231681937536?_tr...K%3AMEBIDX%3AIT which let me angle the speakers or even move them to different points on the shelf depending on whether I'm gaming alone or watching a movie with friends. I've put a mount at each end of the shelf and one in the middle so I can place the speakers either side of my armchair and then just move the right speaker to the end of the shelf when I have company.

I have a decent Tripath amp that I can use to power the front speakers and I'm thinking of getting some Diamond 9.1s, although the cheaper 9s might be good enough for my room.

So I had a look for HDMI to analog converters and found some on e-bay like this for under £40 (I'd need to buy a decent PSU as well, as the one's I've received with other equipment I've bought from China have been decidedly dodgy):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1080P-Digital-Mu...moAAOSwEetV9ncA

but I'm not sure that will decode all the possible audio formats. It says in the specs:
"Digital audio decode format:Dolby Digital (AC3)/DTS/LPCM 2CH"

so it doesn't appear to do DTS-HD/Dolby-TrueHD/LPCM 5.1/7.1/DSD

There's this more expensive converter that does LPCM 2/5.1/7.1 but nothing else (it appears to decode the other formats to stereo but not surround). It also includes an HDMI amplifier which I don't need and which obviously pushes the price up: http://www.allaboutadapters.com/hdautorcasts.html

So I'm wondering if there's either something ready-made I could buy that will decide all digital audio formats to line level analog surround, or if not whether there's a way to put something together myself? Ideally I'd want something in kit form, rather than building the circuits from scratch but if it's not too complicated I'd consider doing that.

I already have a 4 input HDMI switch with remote, so a single HDMI input and output on the converter box will be sufficient and help keep the size and complexity down. I can use trimmer pots to set a pre-set balance between the speakers but I would need to be able to adjust the master volume remotely.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #1
What you're looking for is an "HDMI 5.1 audio extractor", there are some hits on Google, but I don't know which formats they support.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #2
What you're looking for is an "HDMI 5.1 audio extractor", there are some hits on Google, but I don't know which formats they support.


Thanks for giving me the correct term to search for. Unfortunately it doesn't look like there's anything available that does more than Dolby Digital (AC3)/DTS/LPCM.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #3
Very likely it's restrictions pushed for by the entertainment industry and the owners of the HDMI standard as well.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #4
Quote
I need something that will allow me to connect my PC, Raspberry Pi, Xbox360 and STB HDMI outputs and decode all audio formats (DTS, Dolby Digital, etc) to 5.1 (maybe 7.1) analog line level outputs.
I'd say forget about HDMI and get a 7.1 Channel USB soundcard.  With USB, all of the decoding takes place in software before the data is sent out to the USB port.  I don't know it USB will work with your set top box.

You may need something like WinDVD to play some of these formats.    (I don't know there is software for playing/decoding these DVD & Blu-Ray formats on the Raspberry.)   

But, watch out for false advertising...  Many "5.1" and "7.1" USB soundcards downmix to stereo.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #5
But, watch out for false advertising...  Many "5.1" and "7.1" USB soundcards downmix to stereo.


Like this piece of crap.  You can tell by the ports.  It's Stereo only.  Only hot pink ports and lime ports.  Another red flag is only red and white RCA jacks.

A 5.1 / 7.1 card with 3.5 mm TRS jacks typically have Front (often colored lime) / Rear (often colored black) / Front Center | SUB (often colored orange) / Side (often colored gray) jacks.  Some cards may have an additional headphone port and separate amp, share optical SPDIF out with another port (you can tell if you see red light coming out of there and it comes with some kind of an adapter).

Other notes: Any that are hot pink are usually Microphone ports.  If you see blue it's a line in port.  Some cards share their microphone and line in ports as well.  In this case you may just see Mic/Line In and only can use one at a time.

Not all cards are color coded.  So look for clues like on the ports like Mic and Line Out, mean it's 2 channels only.  Any 5.1 Card will say in this case Front | Center/SUB | Rear.  Any 7.1 card will say Front | Center/Sub | Rear | Side.  Additionally if SPDIF is shared with another port it'll say for example Side/SPDIF OUT (it can be coxal sometimes as well).  Also if there's a separate headphone amp on the card you may find a jack labeled headphone or phones for short or see the universal symbol for headphones.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #6
I'd say forget about HDMI and get a 7.1 Channel USB soundcard.  With USB, all of the decoding takes place in software before the data is sent out to the USB port.  I don't know it USB will work with your set top box.

You may need something like WinDVD to play some of these formats.    (I don't know there is software for playing/decoding these DVD & Blu-Ray formats on the Raspberry.)


Whilst that may work with my PC and possibly my RPi if I don't mind constantly swapping it between them (which I do), it wouldn't be any good for my Xbox or STB, so that's no good for me I'm afraid.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #7
Try looking at this a bit differently.  On which devices do you NEED to play back DTS-HD/True-HD?  If it is only your PC, then you can easily configure it to convert those formats to AC3 on the fly.  Yes there will be some theoretical quality loss, but really it is not likely you will notice.  All your devices support AC3 or DTS, so just get an audio extractor that supports those formats.  Even your RPi should be able to pass the DTS-core part of a DTS-HD track, leaving only True-HD unplayable on that device.

Alternatively you could get your PC to decode DTS-HD/True-HD losslessly to LPCM and get an audio extractor that supports 5.1 LPCM, but it is unlikely the rest of your devices can do that.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #8
Try looking at this a bit differently.  On which devices do you NEED to play back DTS-HD/True-HD?  If it is only your PC, then you can easily configure it to convert those formats to AC3 on the fly.  Yes there will be some theoretical quality loss, but really it is not likely you will notice.  All your devices support AC3 or DTS, so just get an audio extractor that supports those formats.  Even your RPi should be able to pass the DTS-core part of a DTS-HD track, leaving only True-HD unplayable on that device.

Alternatively you could get your PC to decode DTS-HD/True-HD losslessly to LPCM and get an audio extractor that supports 5.1 LPCM, but it is unlikely the rest of your devices can do that.


I might not NEED to play back DTS-HD/True-HD and if I could make the devices convert them to AC3 that would be fine but I'm not sure that's possible. If a game on the PC or Xbox only outputs one of the higher quality formats, how would I force the Xbox or PC to convert them to AC3 on the the fly? For the RPi it's probably possible, in fact most of the video files I'll be playing probably only use AC3 anyway as the higher quality formats would make them massive. The STB (Freeview and streaming services) probably only outputs AC3 as well but I'm not sure.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #9
I might not NEED to play back DTS-HD/True-HD and if I could make the devices convert them to AC3 that would be fine but I'm not sure that's possible. If a game on the PC or Xbox only outputs one of the higher quality formats, how would I force the Xbox or PC to convert them to AC3 on the the fly? For the RPi it's probably possible, in fact most of the video files I'll be playing probably only use AC3 anyway as the higher quality formats would make them massive. The STB (Freeview and streaming services) probably only outputs AC3 as well but I'm not sure.

I won't claim this to be 100% in all cases, but I'm not aware of any game on any system that uses anything higher than regular DTS with AC3 being more common. PC games are going to output (L)PCM unless it is converted to AC3 or something else.  The XBOX 360 in particular outputs plain AC3 or stereo LPCM for games.  DTS-HD/True-HD are just for movies, not games. 

For movies I've never heard of anything that had a DTS-HD/True-HD track that does not also have a AC3 or DTS track.  I'm pretty sure it is a requirement for Blu-ray discs to have one of the older audio formats.  DTS-HD in particular is just a superset of DTS.  If you have a DTS-HD track then by definition you also have a plain DTS track.  True-HD does not work that way, but I've never seen a disc with it that did not also have an AC3 track.

TL,DR: The higher quality formats are always an extra audio track, not the only one.  You will still get multi channel audio with a device that does not support them..

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #10
I won't claim this to be 100% in all cases, but I'm not aware of any game on any system that uses anything higher than regular DTS with AC3 being more common. PC games are going to output (L)PCM unless it is converted to AC3 or something else.  The XBOX 360 in particular outputs plain AC3 or stereo LPCM for games.  DTS-HD/True-HD are just for movies, not games. 

For movies I've never heard of anything that had a DTS-HD/True-HD track that does not also have a AC3 or DTS track.  I'm pretty sure it is a requirement for Blu-ray discs to have one of the older audio formats.  DTS-HD in particular is just a superset of DTS.  If you have a DTS-HD track then by definition you also have a plain DTS track.  True-HD does not work that way, but I've never seen a disc with it that did not also have an AC3 track.

TL,DR: The higher quality formats are always an extra audio track, not the only one.  You will still get multi channel audio with a device that does not support them..


I've double-checked elsewhere regarding the RPi and been told:
"The Pi / Pi 2 will output DD and DTS (i.e. SPDIF bitrate legacy codecs) as bitstreams, and will output PCM 2.0 (SPDIF bitrate) and 5.1/7.1 (much higher than SPDIF bitrate).

Your HDMI Audio Extractor should support DD, DTS and PCM 2.0 but won't cope with 5.1/7.1 PCM as this can't be carried over SPDIF (in standard form)

When you play HD Audio tracks then you can bitstream the DTS Core (for DTS HD) or the accompanying DD legacy stream (for True HD). When you play other multichannel content - FLAC, AAC, PCM etc. 5.1/7.1 audio - then you should be able to enable transcoding to DD 5.1 to continue to get surround sound"

I'm not sure what he means by 5.1/7.1 PCM not being able to be carried over SPDIF, as it's a HDMI connection and the more expensive extractor decodes those formats but I won't be playing files that use 5.1/7.1 PCM anyway so it seems like I should be OK with the £40 unit for the RPi. It says it only uses 500ma, so I should be able to power it from my RPi with a USB to DC power lead (I'll check how much spare wattage it has first) or failing that my PC or a powered hub.

I don't understand about the situation with PC games though as you say that games only use DTS or more commonly AC3 but then say that they output in LPCM unless it's converted (which I guess is down to the game and out of my control) and the £40 unit won't decode 5.1 LPCM, so I need to be sure that games only output in DTS or AC3 before I buy it.

Does the Xbox360 definitely output in AC3, not 5.1 LPCM?

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #11
I've double-checked elsewhere regarding the RPi and been told:
"The Pi / Pi 2 will output DD and DTS (i.e. SPDIF bitrate legacy codecs) as bitstreams, and will output PCM 2.0 (SPDIF bitrate) and 5.1/7.1 (much higher than SPDIF bitrate).

Your HDMI Audio Extractor should support DD, DTS and PCM 2.0 but won't cope with 5.1/7.1 PCM as this can't be carried over SPDIF (in standard form)

When you play HD Audio tracks then you can bitstream the DTS Core (for DTS HD) or the accompanying DD legacy stream (for True HD). When you play other multichannel content - FLAC, AAC, PCM etc. 5.1/7.1 audio - then you should be able to enable transcoding to DD 5.1 to continue to get surround sound"

I'm not sure what he means by 5.1/7.1 PCM not being able to be carried over SPDIF, as it's a HDMI connection and the more expensive extractor decodes those formats but I won't be playing files that use 5.1/7.1 PCM anyway so it seems like I should be OK with the £40 unit for the RPi. It says it only uses 500ma, so I should be able to power it from my RPi with a USB to DC power lead (I'll check how much spare wattage it has first) or failing that my PC or a powered hub.

I don't know the specifics of the RPi, but there were some older PC HDMI interfaces that only supported SPDIF compatible formats.  The RPi may have the same limitations.  SPDIF only (commonly) supports AC3/DTS or 2.0 PCM 16 bit 48KHz.  It doesn't have the bandwidth for more, though higher PCM stereo rates often work.  SPDIF does not have the bandwidth to carry LPCM 5.1/7.1.  I would not count on an RPi having enough CPU power to re-encode audio, at least the older one.  The RPi 2 may be ok with this.
Quote
I don't understand about the situation with PC games though as you say that games only use DTS or more commonly AC3 but then say that they output in LPCM unless it's converted (which I guess is down to the game and out of my control) and the £40 unit won't decode 5.1 LPCM, so I need to be sure that games only output in DTS or AC3 before I buy it.

My apologies for not being clear.  My understanding is that modern consoles usually output AC3 and sometimes DTS in games.  Consoles can output (L)PCM in games, but are limited to stereo.  PCs games use PCM as they are likely using a 5.1/7.1 analog connection to PC speakers instead of HDMI to a receiver.  Third-party software can then encode this PCM to AC3 or DTS.  Some soundcard drivers include this feature called Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect.

If you game on both consoles and PC the least hassle way (without a modern receiver) is AC3 over HDMI for consoles and 5.1 analog for PC.
Quote
Does the Xbox360 definitely output in AC3, not 5.1 LPCM?

Everything I have read says that the 360 outputs AC3 or 2.0 PCM, but I don't own one to test. 

I'll say this:  For many years I had a pair of receivers that only supported SPDIF or analog and the limitations that came with them.  I spent many hours setting up workarounds to get multi-channel audio working properly with everything.  When I got my first modern receiver that supported full HDMI LPCM/DTS-HD/True-HD it was like a breath of fresh air.  I didn't have to care anymore, anything and everything just worked.  I very quickly replaced my second receiver with a modern one as well.  I know you say you don't want to spend the money, but the lack of hassle is well worth the investment. 

I do have an "HDMI audio extractor" that I use to convert HDMI audio to SPDIF to send to the 2nd receiver to get music throughout my home.  However, I only got it because I didn't want to replace a 60 foot TOSLINK cable that was already in my walls with HDMI and I only use it for stereo music anyway. 

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #12
I don't know the specifics of the RPi, but there were some older PC HDMI interfaces that only supported SPDIF compatible formats.  The RPi may have the same limitations.  SPDIF only (commonly) supports AC3/DTS or 2.0 PCM 16 bit 48KHz.  It doesn't have the bandwidth for more, though higher PCM stereo rates often work.  SPDIF does not have the bandwidth to carry LPCM 5.1/7.1.  I would not count on an RPi having enough CPU power to re-encode audio, at least the older one.  The RPi 2 may be ok with this.


He's clarified what he meant now, which was that the extractor probably has a SPDIF-level decoder for the analog outputs, which would explain why it can't decode 5.1/7.1 LPCM

Quote
My apologies for not being clear.  My understanding is that modern consoles usually output AC3 and sometimes DTS in games.  Consoles can output (L)PCM in games, but are limited to stereo.  PCs games use PCM as they are likely using a 5.1/7.1 analog connection to PC speakers instead of HDMI to a receiver.  Third-party software can then encode this PCM to AC3 or DTS.  Some soundcard drivers include this feature called Dolby Digital Live or DTS Connect.

If you game on both consoles and PC the least hassle way (without a modern receiver) is AC3 over HDMI for consoles and 5.1 analog for PC.


Thanks for clarifying. It seems the RPi 2 can be set to transcode to LPCM on-the-fly so my best bet for the RPi (for movies) and the PC (for gaming) would be an LPCM extractor. I've found one which is only £45.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hdmi-digita...archweb201560_9

There's a more expensive one for £98 which might be better quality but at that price I would be better off putting it towards a receiver.
http://cpc.farnell.com/cyp/clux-11sa/hdmi-...SKU-CYP-AV18227

Quote
Everything I have read says that the 360 outputs AC3 or 2.0 PCM, but I don't own one to test.

OK, I'll probably have to forget about the 360 and my STB (not really bothered about the latter) and just get something that works with the RPi and PC then. The only other option would be to get the AC3 extractor to use with the 360, STB and RPi (which I think can be set to transcode to AC3) and build myself a switch that would take the 8 analog outputs from the extractor and the 8 analog outputs from the PC and let me switch which of the two is connected to the speakers but that's too much hassle and whilst I've probably got enough sockets lying around, there's the cost of the other parts (it'd probably need an IC to switch 8 lines at once), the case, the leads, not to mention potential problems if the case isn't shielded properly.

Quote
I'll say this:  For many years I had a pair of receivers that only supported SPDIF or analog and the limitations that came with them.  I spent many hours setting up workarounds to get multi-channel audio working properly with everything.  When I got my first modern receiver that supported full HDMI LPCM/DTS-HD/True-HD it was like a breath of fresh air.  I didn't have to care anymore, anything and everything just worked.  I very quickly replaced my second receiver with a modern one as well.  I know you say you don't want to spend the money, but the lack of hassle is well worth the investment.


Whilst you could argue that any amount would be better put towards a receiver, I only have very modest power requirements so I'm trying to avoid buying a big, heavy, power-sucking, heat-producing device that I don't really need. There's only a couple of options that aren't so big that I find them offensive and they cost £230 and £250 respectively.

http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-rec...pion-vsx310-blk
http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-rec...504/mara-nr1504

So until such time as I have a lot more spare cash, spending £45 to get surround seems like the best option for me, although I realise it won't allow me to set things up as well as a receiver would.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #13
I think there's some confusion about some things. I would be surprised if the Xbox 360 couldn't do 7.1 LPCM over HDMI. The PS3 does this without a hitch.

Regarding games and AC3, the game's real-time audio is likely not encoded in this format, but pre-rendered stuff like the cutscenes may be. This was common practice with PS2 games (you only got true multichannel for cutscenes, and DPLIIx for in-game). The point is that the game in today's consoles (since PS3's generation) are capable of full multichannel audio since they all support multichannel HDMI. This means you don't need to output AC3 if you have an HDMI connection. The PS3 has an option to reencode all audio to AC3 in order to be able to pass multichannel audio through SPDIF, but if you're using HDMI this option is not ideal.

I am not familiar with this store, but I've seen this adapter floating around for years http://www.allaboutadapters.com/hddodtsdihdo.html Seems to do what you want it to do. If you can get DTS-HD and TrueHD decoding on your source, you're all set. In Windows, this is available with LAV Filters.

Personally, if you have the space, I think maybe a proper multichannel receiver would be a better option (you might need to get speaker level to line level adapters for your powered speakers but they're cheap), especially down the road. It will allow you ton switch multiple sources, apply some processing/EQ if you like, with the comfort of a remote control, decode all formats if your source can't, and the price difference is probably not that much considering if you want to power better speakers in the future you might have to buy a multichannel amp, or powered monitors.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #14
I think there's some confusion about some things. I would be surprised if the Xbox 360 couldn't do 7.1 LPCM over HDMI. The PS3 does this without a hitch.

Regarding games and AC3, the game's real-time audio is likely not encoded in this format, but pre-rendered stuff like the cutscenes may be. This was common practice with PS2 games (you only got true multichannel for cutscenes, and DPLIIx for in-game). The point is that the game in today's consoles (since PS3's generation) are capable of full multichannel audio since they all support multichannel HDMI. This means you don't need to output AC3 if you have an HDMI connection. The PS3 has an option to reencode all audio to AC3 in order to be able to pass multichannel audio through SPDIF, but if you're using HDMI this option is not ideal.


It's not the end of the world if the Xbox360 doesn't do multi-channel PCM, I do most of my gaming on my PC anyway and the HDMI output from that will be LPCM.

Quote
I am not familiar with this store, but I've seen this adapter floating around for years http://www.allaboutadapters.com/hddodtsdihdo.html Seems to do what you want it to do. If you can get DTS-HD and TrueHD decoding on your source, you're all set. In Windows, this is available with LAV Filters.


That looks like the same one I linked to in my first post for $118. The one I posted a link to in my last post is about half that at $69/£45. I'll be using my RPi for movies and that can transcode to LPCM on the fly, so the £45 extractor will be fine for the RPi and the PC.

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Personally, if you have the space, I think maybe a proper multichannel receiver would be a better option (you might need to get speaker level to line level adapters for your powered speakers but they're cheap), especially down the road. It will allow you ton switch multiple sources, apply some processing/EQ if you like, with the comfort of a remote control, decode all formats if your source can't, and the price difference is probably not that much considering if you want to power better speakers in the future you might have to buy a multichannel amp, or powered monitors.


It's not a question of not having the space, I just don't want a massive, power-hungry box sitting there looking ugly when I don't really need it and the nicer, slimmer ones that I might consider cost £230+ (which is quite a bit more than £45) and I can't afford that at the moment. So I could either do without surround for however long it takes me to get that sort of money (and I have other things that I need to buy more urgently, so in reality it could be a long time) or spend a little bit to at least get something up and running for now.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #15
I still don't see the problem with a receiver, they're cheap second hand, have all the features you want and contrary to your repeated statements, don't use ridiculous amounts of power unless you're driving them at full whack. Basically you can find them second hand for £100 or less, have HDMI switching built in and decode all the formats you require.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #16
It's not a question of not having the space, I just don't want a massive, power-hungry box sitting there looking ugly when I don't really need it and the nicer, slimmer ones that I might consider cost £230+ (which is quite a bit more than £45) and I can't afford that at the moment. So I could either do without surround for however long it takes me to get that sort of money (and I have other things that I need to buy more urgently, so in reality it could be a long time) or spend a little bit to at least get something up and running for now.

I certainly understand the cost factor and the advantage of getting something now vs later. Just be aware that none of the cheaper solutions will be perfect and you may be kicking yourself later for wasting money on a hack.  I've been there myself, it is almost always cheaper in the long run to do it right the first time.

Also, you seem to have a couple of misconceptions about receivers.  They are not that power hungry unless pushed hard.  At the listening levels you describe your XBOX 360 is going to be using more power.  They also replace at least two of your proposed devices (auto extractor and amplifier) so you have some power savings there. 

Appearance is of course subjective, but there is no need to have a modern receiver visible if you don't want to see it.  Neither of mine are visible, one is in an opaque cabinet and the other is in another room entirely.  They are completely controlled over the network and/or through the connected TV.  Other than the initial setup I never touch or see them.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #17
Yeah, I said it because it's not only opinion, but from experience. I've been into building HTPC and upgrading my stuff for more than a decade now, that's why I knew about that little DAC box, cause I also considered something like that. Before I got my AVR, I was running 4 small cheap stereo amps based on the 5W Tripath that was popular at the time. Before that, a 7.1 Cambridge Soundworks computer speaker rig, with a DD/DTS box which turned out to be a unique piece of equipment, it was like a receiver without the amplifiers. If I had the opportunity and knew what I know now, and the tech was already available 10+ years ago, I would have gone straight with AVR.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #18
I certainly understand the cost factor and the advantage of getting something now vs later. Just be aware that none of the cheaper solutions will be perfect and you may be kicking yourself later for wasting money on a hack.  I've been there myself, it is almost always cheaper in the long run to do it right the first time.

Also, you seem to have a couple of misconceptions about receivers.  They are not that power hungry unless pushed hard.  At the listening levels you describe your XBOX 360 is going to be using more power.  They also replace at least two of your proposed devices (auto extractor and amplifier) so you have some power savings there. 

Appearance is of course subjective, but there is no need to have a modern receiver visible if you don't want to see it.  Neither of mine are visible, one is in an opaque cabinet and the other is in another room entirely.  They are completely controlled over the network and/or through the connected TV.  Other than the initial setup I never touch or see them.


Regarding the power consumption, perhaps it's not as bad as I might think and maybe the 220W/18A quoted for this 50x5W Marantz is a maximum http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-rec...504/mara-nr1504 but even so, when the HDMI extractor only draws 550mAh@5v (2.75W), the X-Mini speakers have a battery capacity of 440mAh each, charge at 5v for about 2.5 hours and give 8-18 hours playback from a charge (call it 10 hours to be conservative), plus whatever the Tripath uses for the fronts, which I'm pretty sure is quite low, then it's hard to imagine any AVR coming close. Sure, my Xbox360 or PC might use more than an AVR but they're not alternatives to an AVR so aren't relevant comparators.

As for hiding an AVR away, sure it might be possible to stick it in a cabinet (I don't have any spare rooms in my flat to put it in and that would just complicate the wiring anyway) but then you have to worry about proper ventilation, making the remote work, etc, so it's a lot easier if you can find something that doesn't need to be hidden.

Having looked into AVRs at various times in the past it became clear that even many of the well-known brands had reliability issues and people had to return/exchange ones that they'd bought brand new. I imagine that these problems partly result from the heat that the components are subjected to but that's not really an excuse, as the design should allow for that but maybe it's difficult to do that within the price-constraints of the budget models. Perhaps the higher-end models never have these issues due to more being spent on design or components but I'm never going to get one of those. The main reason I raise this point is to explain that I wouldn't want to gamble even £100 on a s/h AVR that might pack up a week or a month later. I've never had much luck gambling and whilst I will take a calculated chance and buy some things s/h, an AVR with all the potential issues they have is not something I'd be willing to risk much on, especially when I could buy a brand-new one with 6 year Supercare for £165 http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-rec...pion-vsx329-blk

However, once I start considering spending £165, I start worrying that a) that unit  might be missing an important feature I might need and b) that it might be better value to spend a bit more, so I end up looking at something like this Pioneer for £253 (incl. Supercare) so that I get MCACC to make sure the AVR is properly setup for the speakers and room and then I'm thinking maybe I should spend an extra £20 to get this Marantz with internet radio http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-rec...504/mara-nr1504

So realistically my choices are spend £45 on an HDMI extractor now or spend £250-270 on an AVR at some point in the future. Like I said, I can't bring myself to spend that sort of money on something I don't NEED when I don't have that sort of money just lying around and I've got other more important things I need to save for (washing machine, decorating, parent's 50th anniversary next year, etc). However this discussion has made me think that I should just make do with running my PC analog outputs into the X-mini speakers for rears and centre and my Tripath amp and full-sized front speakers for the fronts, so that I can at least play my PC games in surround, and forget about the rest until such time as I'm better off and can afford to spend £250 on an AVR.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #19
Power:  My Yamaha is pulling 20w during playback at moderate volumes.

Ventilation:  20W doesn't need active ventilation.  Doesn't need passive ventilation except in the most extreme of cases.

Reliability:  There is absolutely no reason to expect your compiled stack of discreet components will be more reliable than an AVR.

Creature of habit.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #20
I'm not sure where you are seeing 18A, but that is a very unrealistic (ie, practically impossible) rating for any home AVR.  Most common home outlets in NA and GB can't even supply that much.  Either way, the power ratings are maximums.  As Soap pointed out, at moderate volumes modern AVRs pull very little.  I also have Yamahas and they pull about the same (my wattmeter said 21W).

The Yamaha AVR that I have in a cabinet has no heat problems.  The back is open so it is not sealed, but there is no active ventilation.  If you get a modern AVR you don't need the remote other than for setup.  Everything is networked or uses CEC from your TV.  If you really want to use the AVR remote, many models support a remote IR transceiver.

Maybe I'm lucky but I have only had one AVR fail out of several I have owned and that was after 15 years of almost daily use.  None of my friends or family that I asked have had an AVR failure either.

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #21
Yeah sorry, 18A is obviously wrong. I'm not sure exactly how to calculate what 220W at 240V translates to but we probably can't compare draw at 240v with draw at 5v anyway.

On the reliability point, with the new discreet components I'll at least have a warranty in case they break, which I won't have if I buy a s/h AVR.

I might get lucky with a s/h AVR but then again a s/h Pioneer AVR I've seen, that I think was released in 2011/2012 so only 3-4 years old, is listed as only having the HDMI ports working,
with the coax/optical ports (never used) and the MCACC feature being non-functional,  so clearly things do go wrong with them and it's a gamble buying a s/h one with no warranty.

Like I said though, I think I'll just use what I've got with my PC analog outputs for now and hopefully one day I'll have the spare cash for a new receiver.

 

Looking for HDMI to 5.1/7.1 analog audio converter

Reply #22
Yeah sorry, 18A is obviously wrong. I'm not sure exactly how to calculate what 220W at 240V translates to but we probably can't compare draw at 240v with draw at 5v anyway.


220W on 240V is ~0.92A, according to good old Ohm's law :-) So yes, we can easily compare current draw at different voltages, it's pretty basic stuff.

But keep in mind that 220W is the maximum power consumption at full output on all channels. In real life, a normal listening level is below 1W per channel, maybe 5W if you have inefficient speakers. Probably lower if you're close to the speakers, as is normal for PC speakers and studio monitors.

As an example, a common sensitivity rating for bookshelf speakers is 87dB/1W at 1 meter, which is a measure of how much sound you'll get for a given amount of power fed into the speaker. 87dB falls within the range that Wikipedia calls "Traffic on a busy roadway at 10 m" or a loud conversation. This is already loud enough for most people in most situations. On a speaker with that efficiency rating, 100dB would take just 20W, and the sound level would be analogous to what Wikipedia calls "Jack hammer at 1 m". So in other words, very loud indeed.

And that is for one speaker, in an anechoic chamber with no room gain. With two speakers placed near a wall in a normal room, you can probably reach 106dB at 1 meter with just 20W per speaker.

At that output level, your amplifier would probably be using around 100W total, or 0.42A at 240V. At 1W per speaker, you're looking at something like 5W to drive the speakers, and of course a couple of watts to drive the rest of the electronics.

So in other words, unless you like to play really REALLY loud, don't worry about the power consumption :-)

I'm using a set of Dali Concept 1 speakers, which have an sensitivity rating of the 87dB/1W at 1 meter I mentioned above. I'm powering them using an old Fisher amplifier from the mid-80s that I bought second-hand for $7. It does 20W/channel and according to the power meters on the front, I hardly ever use even just 1W per channel. The guy I bought it from had used it in his living room to power a set of floorstanding speakers. Unless you're trying to reach movie theater or rock concert levels, you need a lot less power than you'd think (and the manufacturers would have you believe). And with a low power requirement comes a lower total power usage.