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Topic: Neil Young’s new audio format (Read 138860 times) previous topic - next topic
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Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #175 –
Apparently the PONOs need a long time to 'break in'. Something about dielectrics?

Quote
During the final manufacturing steps of almost all dielectrics, they are tested for possible defects in the insulation. This is done by applying an extremely high voltage to them (several thousands of volts). This applies a great internal stress to the dielectrics, such that the internal structure is altered.

It takes a great deal of time and playing of normal signal levels of semi-random signals (e.g., music) to have the dielectrics "relax" back to their normal state after being stressed by the high-voltage charges used to test the dielectrics.

electrons orbiting When the dielectrics have "relaxed" to their "normal" state, the atoms in the molecules can move more freely when an electrical signal is imposed on them. Depending on the material and the musical signal being played, it typically requires between several days and several months of playback to "break in" a dielectric fully. As this happens, the sound quality of the playback device will improve, becoming more "relaxed," "coherent," "musical" and "enjoyable."


emphasis mine. full page here PONO Only Gets Better

Is this in any way credible?

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #176 –
No. When you buy the PONO player, there's probably some fixed time when you can return it for your money back. Ad copy like that is written so that you're encouraged to not return the player in the hopes things will only get better should you be disappointed. Once you're past the time period, you're stuck with it and you'll never get your money back.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #177 –
Quote from: Satellite_6 on
I think it is about time we abandoned lossy for lossless because of the same old argument that we have so much damn space. It is a shame we do not focus on this instead of HRA.

Since everyone is supposedly free to choose; and if for many people (many still!) lossy is all right, I honestly don't see the point of us suddenly jumping on the same bandwagon as if not doing it so were something totally illegal.
Listen to the music, not the media it's on.
União e reconstrução

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #178 –
Quote from: RonaldDumsfeld on
Apparently the PONOs need a long time to 'break in'. Something about dielectrics?

Quote
During the final manufacturing steps of almost all dielectrics, they are tested for possible defects in the insulation. This is done by applying an extremely high voltage to them (several thousands of volts). This applies a great internal stress to the dielectrics, such that the internal structure is altered.

It takes a great deal of time and playing of normal signal levels of semi-random signals (e.g., music) to have the dielectrics "relax" back to their normal state after being stressed by the high-voltage charges used to test the dielectrics.

electrons orbiting When the dielectrics have "relaxed" to their "normal" state, the atoms in the molecules can move more freely when an electrical signal is imposed on them. Depending on the material and the musical signal being played, it typically requires between several days and several months of playback to "break in" a dielectric fully. As this happens, the sound quality of the playback device will improve, becoming more "relaxed," "coherent," "musical" and "enjoyable."


emphasis mine. full page here PONO Only Gets Better

Is this in any way credible?

If it was even remotely true then it would be trivial (at $400 a pop) to break in the capacitors in the factory before they sell you something that doesn't work properly.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #179 –
The phenomenon of dielectric relaxation is real, but even in the worst cases they would have relaxed before the components even made it off the assembly line. Even IF the effects lasted that long the components would still operate within their specifications or else the whole system wouldn't work. This is pure BS.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #180 –
Quote from: RonaldDumsfeld on
Is this in any way credible?

To the audiomoron who craves $cams like Hi-Re$ and Pono, etc., yes, absolutely. Nothing is too far fetched, dazzle with technical sounding BS like that about dielectrics, Class D amps "interleaving", DACs, etc., but show zero correlation to actual audibility. Follow the technical BS with a "listening" comparison where this is "heard", thus establishing causation in the mind of the audiomoron.
To rational, technically literate folks....incredible. 

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #181 –
I like how they put "enjoyable" in quotes.

Also, what kind of website is this? I assume it has nothing to do with official Pono marketing, cause dat design (though you could say the same thing about the Pono itself).

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #182 –
Quote from: RonaldDumsfeld on
Quote
electrons orbiting When the dielectrics have "relaxed" to their "normal" state, the atoms in the molecules can move more freely when an electrical signal is imposed on them. Depending on the material and the musical signal being played, it typically requires between several days and several months of playback to "break in" a dielectric fully. As this happens, the sound quality of the playback device will improve, becoming more "relaxed," "coherent," "musical" and "enjoyable."

Is this in any way credible?


It made me scream internally.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #183 –
So if there was any tiny, little possibility that Pono hi-re$ had some actual legitimacy, that can now be instantly chucked out the window due to their nonsense that wires and other electronics within it need "break-in". Their company is clearly a BS, voodoo marketing scam.

I also hear that unlike M&M who were persecuted for using (some) older SACD material for their AES paper's test from analog studio tapes with limited high frequency range, Pono is apparently immune to any such short comings and tons of their material is taken from old analog recordings, including some Bob Dylan albums from the 60's.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #184 –
Was this Mike Beauchamp Pono player teardown posted here already?

At least the final paragraph wasn't as bad as I feared
Quote
How does it sound?

It came pre-loaded with Neil Young’s “There’s a World” in 24/192 and I think it sounds great with headphones. The mix sounded more dynamic than I was used to, but that’s more about the mastering and not necessary about the high definition of the audio file. In the next few weeks I hope to be running a few tests on the sound quality though to see I feel a difference. I’ve been listening to FLAC files on my old iPod video running RockBox for years. I can tell the diference between badly encoded MP3’s and FLAC files no problem, but I’m not entirely convinced that “high resolution audio” is something I can distinguish compared to CD-quality FLAC files from the same source. But I’m open minded and I have a decent set of headphones, so I’m looking forward to posting more tests soon.
Every night with my star friends / We eat caviar and drink champagne
Sniffing in the VIP area / We talk about Frank Sinatra
Do you know Frank Sinatra? / He's dead

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #186 –
Quote from: krabapple on
Engineers at Neil Young’s company admit doubts on music player
http://nypost.com/2015/01/11/do-consumers-...igital-quality/

This must have been before they became enlightened.
Pono to Play DSD

I bet you can get RHCP Californication even one more time! Ok. the awaited 24/96 is as compressed as the cd and as bad sounding but soon the DSD format version will give you another buy.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #188 –
If you're selling a player that handles pointless audio formats, then DSD support seems inevitable

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #189 –
Can we change the title now? It's not a new format but a new hardware. Thanks.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #190 –
This isn't some lock-in scheme like HDCD where you need special licensed hardware or software from Microsoft to play your music at "HD quality." There's no DRM, so it's also not locked into any store and is playable it on any device. The lossless audio does, in fact, provide the maximum quality possible for digital music, so you never have to worry about the encoder they used, or what will happen when you transcode it to your preferred format. The player they are selling is a rather good player, maybe expensive, but you don't have to buy it.

I don't really see how Pono is harming anything. There's no catch. There's nothing sinister behind it, and it seems like having another place to get FLAC is a good thing.

So there is some marketing nonsese, that is always the case for a new product. Everything new is "revolutionary." Overall, I think the existance of Pono Music is a positive.




Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #191 –
Quote from: bp0 on
There's nothing sinister behind it
Except that the whole premise is based on the lie that delivering (rock and pop) music as hi-res audio offers audible benefits over delivering them as redbook audio. And the lie that there is a benefit from delivering old recordings as hi-res files.
It's only audiophile if it's inconvenient.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #192 –
Quote from: Kohlrabi on
Quote from: bp0 on
There's nothing sinister behind it
Except that the whole premise is based on the lie that delivering (rock and pop) music as hi-res audio offers audible benefits over delivering them as redbook audio. And the lie that there is a benefit from delivering old recordings as hi-res files.


I'm saying that if you take away Neil Young's extravagant claims, the thing that remains is great. There is no catch. It's exactly the thing everyone has wanted for 10 years. A DRM-free lossless audio store, with support of major publishers (and several smaller ones), not locked into any software, operating system or device. As a bonus, there is a simple and very good (but maybe not magical) music player you can buy, if you want, but you don't have to.

Yes, HDTracks exists and doesn't come with any religion, but another store doesn't hurt anything, and will likely make things better for poeple who want lossless audio.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #193 –
Quote from: bp0 on
Quote from: Kohlrabi on
Quote from: bp0 on
There's nothing sinister behind it
Except that the whole premise is based on the lie that delivering (rock and pop) music as hi-res audio offers audible benefits over delivering them as redbook audio. And the lie that there is a benefit from delivering old recordings as hi-res files.


I'm saying that if you take away Neil Young's extravagant claims, the thing that remains is great. There is no catch. It's exactly the thing everyone has wanted for 10 years. A DRM-free lossless audio store, with support of major publishers (and several smaller ones), not locked into any software, operating system or device. As a bonus, there is a simple and very good (but maybe not magical) music player you can buy, if you want, but you don't have to.

Yes, HDTracks exists and doesn't come with any religion, but another store doesn't hurt anything, and will likely make things better for poeple who want lossless audio.

I have qualms about the pricing, but there's one album I've found on there I can't get anywhere else I've looked, so I will be making one purchase at the very least from the Pono Store, once they expand beyond just selling to the US market.

As for the player, I don't listen on the move very much, so it's not for me.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #194 –
Quote from: bp0 on
I don't really see how Pono is harming anything. There's no catch. There's nothing sinister behind it, and it seems like having another place to get FLAC is a good thing.


Except there is. It's based on telling lies about audio technology, lies that apparently even its employees can't live with:

http://nypost.com/2015/01/11/do-consumers-...igital-quality/

Quote
So there is some marketing nonsense, that is always the case for a new product. Everything new is "revolutionary." Overall, I think the existance of Pono Music is a positive.


Yup everybody lies, so I might as well tell the biggest one I can get away with! ;-)  That is essentially what the above paragraph says, so  pardon me while I ignore every other post you ever make! ;-)

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #195 –
   And, I STILL want to see the results of Neil Young's hearing test! 

Most rock and roll musicians have worse than average hearing (from frequent exposure to loud sound), and most 69 year old's have worse than average hearing....

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #196 –
^I vaguely remember reading that he wears hearing aids. I can no longer find documetion to that, but he once freely admitted to having hearing loss, including tinnitus, back before any of this Pono stuff was on his radar:

http://www.connecthearing.ca/blog/neil-you...to-his-hearing/

NIHL, noise induced hearing loss, doesn't "cure itself". The cilia in your cochlea snap off or are damaged due to the excessive sound vibration and no, they don't "grow back". It is a permanent condition.

As was mentioned, on top of NIHL, just being the age that he is one would expect some high frequency loss:


This chart represents the average hearing of these ages for people living in western civilization. There is some controversy as to whether people living in say aboriginal tribes, with zero exposure to amplified music, subways, motor noise, electricity, etc., their entire lives, have somewhat lesser loss as they age. The data is mixed.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #198 –
Quote from: Hotsoup on
More comment from Gizmodo:
http://gizmodo.com/dont-buy-what-neil-youn...ling-1678446860


errr ... if only they could refrain from writing nonsense like this:

[blockquote]To the human ear, audio sampled above 44.1 kHz/16-bit is inaudibly different.

Still, this demonstrated mathematical truth[/blockquote] Aha. So where the f(x) is this mathematical proof?

There is none. This isn't a "mathematical truth". At best it is an empirically established fact. In fact it is not even that - well it might depend a bit on what you mean by "the human ear".

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #199 –
Quote from: krabapple on
http://nypost.com/2015/01/11/do-consumers-...igital-quality/

Quote
“Of course hi-res files are better,” says David Chesky, a New York-based composer and digital recording pioneer who is also CEO of HDTracks, an online distributor of hi-res music.
“You run into problems when you downsample (a hi-res file to CD-quality) … it gets grungier and closed in. It sounds like your 14-foot ceiling came down to 8 feet."


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