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Hydrogenaudio Forum => Scientific Discussion => Topic started by: FloggedSynapse on 2007-04-20 13:26:24

Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: FloggedSynapse on 2007-04-20 13:26:24
I'm just throwing this out, I don't care if the mods move or delete this post.

For the past several years I've had a very nice cache of cyan mushrooms. Yes the psychoactive ones. The ones that make you trip.

I've noticed something interesting - I think they improve my hearing. If I take just a small amount, like a nickel sized piece of shroom flesh - not enough to trip, it makes my hearing more acute. I swear. I'm almost 40, have good hearing normally. I find I become much more sensitive to high frequency sounds (like my CRT, computer power supply and fans) and I think my hearing overall becomes more acute. Suddenly I can hear the neighbors in my apartment complex much more clearly (having good hearing can be a bit of a curse).

I doubt the drug changes the mechanics of hearing, but it does tweak the nerve conduction and sensory processing. It's thought that most of perception is unconscious and a lot of stuff gets filtered before it reaches the level of conscious perception. Perhaps the drug removes some of this filtering?

I've read a few accounts online that agree with this, including one person with moderate hearing loss that found low doses of shrooms helped his hearing greatly.

It would be interesting to actually measure this and see if there's a real difference in hearing acuity, or if it's all in your head 
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: pest on 2007-04-20 13:41:40
In my opinion, psychoactive drugs don't improve your hearing abilities, they rather change they way you perceive accoustic signals.
In addition you may experience some form of synaesthesia. And finally you can start to debate about "what is reality" 
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: marcan on 2007-04-20 13:49:40
Definitely an interesting discussion.

I work in the music industry (mainly I'm mixing in a studio), so the relation between chemicals and perception of music/sound is something I have been exposed very often.

I'm quite busy right now (a client in the studio), but I will participate to this discussion, sharing my experience and knowledge and curious to learn from others.

Cheers,

Marcan
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: FloggedSynapse on 2007-04-20 14:27:06
In my opinion, psychoactive drugs don't improve your hearing abilities, they rather change they way you perceive accoustic signals.
In addition you may experience some form of synaesthesia. And finally you can start to debate about "what is reality" 


Well,,, yes shrooms definitely change how you perceive, and this may well amount to sharper (and more distracting) hearing. It may change the 'audio processing' filters the brain uses so more stuff that normally gets filtered out makes it through. Who knows. Sort of like autistic people that are very sensitive to light or sound - it's thought this is because they process sensory information differently, even though the 'hardware' (the actual eyes and ears) are no different.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Societal Eclipse on 2007-04-20 14:47:34
On a particularly large dose of Elemicin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elemicin) in a crowded restaurant I was able to hear the conversation at some other table about 20 feet away with perfect clarity, as if it were just in front of me.  Meanwhile the people speaking at my own table had mouths that moved but no sound was uttered (to me at least).  I think it's safe to say it altered the way my mind chose to focus on sounds more than ever occurs naturally without chemical exposure.  I am also completely deaf in my right ear and normally what would happen in such an environment is I would hear a whole lot of noise but nothing clearly, not even what I'm trying to focus us.  In this experience it was as if everything else in the world was cut away for those moments (it lasted about 5 seconds I believe).  So whether there was any actual magnification of the sound in question I don't know it was a case of that all, more so just blocking out what would normally cover it up.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Big_Berny on 2007-04-20 15:18:20
It would be interesting if ABXing is easier with these mushrooms...
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: boojum on 2007-04-20 15:30:12
Better living through chemicals; yeah, right. 
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Societal Eclipse on 2007-04-20 15:57:59
I don't think anyone here is/was advocating drug use.  As per the earlier similar thread it offers potential insight into the way our hearing works.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Nick E on 2007-04-20 18:08:56
Why the Latinate name? See George Orwell: Politics and the English Language:

Quote
An interesting illustration of this is the way in which the English flower names which were in use till very recently are being ousted by Greek ones, snapdragon becoming antirrhinum, forget-me-not becoming myosotis, etc. It is hard to see any practical reason for this change of fashion: it is probably due to an instinctive turning-awayfrom the more homely word and a vague feeling that the Greek word is scientific.


http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit (http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit)

There's a perfectly good English name for these: liberty cap mushrooms.

Do they "help" hearing in some (undefined) manner? Or would someone who's consumed some falsely imagine that they had?

I suppose that could be tested in controlled experiments. I can't see it happening, since this would risk the health of the participants, so what reputable academic institution would undertake such experiments?

If an academic institution were to be interested in how altered states of consciousness might affect hearing (or any other sense) I'd suggest Buddhist monks used to meditating would be a better bet.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: FloggedSynapse on 2007-04-20 21:29:47
Why the Latinate name? See George Orwell: Politics and the English Language:

Quote
An interesting illustration of this is the way in which the English flower names which were in use till very recently are being ousted by Greek ones, snapdragon becoming antirrhinum, forget-me-not becoming myosotis, etc. It is hard to see any practical reason for this change of fashion: it is probably due to an instinctive turning-awayfrom the more homely word and a vague feeling that the Greek word is scientific.


http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit (http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit)

There's a perfectly good English name for these: liberty cap mushrooms.



  Next time I'll just call them shrooms. Happy? Technically the ones I had were NOT liberty caps - there are many different species of psychoactive mushrooms, what I had were found outdoors along the west coast of the US - 'cyan cubensis' or something like that. 'Cyan' because they have a blueish color. They're one of the most potent varieties of 'magic mushrooms'.

Quote
I suppose that could be tested in controlled experiments. I can't see it happening, since this would risk the health of the participants, so what reputable academic institution would undertake such experiments?


First off mushrooms do not damage your health - that's rubbish. Well you certainly may not be comfortable while 'under the influence' you aren't going to be physically harmed by them. As I tried to mention in my original post a very low dose - below what it would take to trip - is all that's needed to effect hearing. Anyway I agree we're not going to be seeing any controlled testing in the area anytime soon, hence my asking for opinions here.

Quote
If an academic institution were to be interested in how altered states of consciousness might affect hearing (or any other sense) I'd suggest Buddhist monks used to meditating would be a better bet.


I fail to see how this relates to shrooms altering hearing. That would be a different test 
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: boojum on 2007-04-20 21:51:25
I don't think anyone here is/was advocating drug use.  As per the earlier similar thread it offers potential insight into the way our hearing works.



Well, re-read this section: "For the past several years I've had a very nice cache of cyan mushrooms. Yes the psychoactive ones. The ones that make you trip.

I've noticed something interesting - I think they improve my hearing."
 

Seems to me "better hearing" is being presented as a form of  "better living." It is not being classified as "same living" or "worse living" I do not think.  I rarely see posts like these on the part of responsible scientific types doing real scientific research.  I see lots of it by people who abuse drugs, though, and try to rationalize their behavior.  Not that this is the case here, of course.  I am sure that the cache of mushrooms has been used for scientific research for the past several years.  The tripping was only an accidental by-product of this research, right?  This is, I am sure, real scientific research.   

BTW the Latin word for "as" is "per."
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: marcan on 2007-04-20 22:11:16
I tried, without too much excess, a lot of different things in my life (I'm more than 40 now) in order to improve my music and sound perception: Loudspeakers, amplifiers, converters, acoustic, foobar;)  ... and also mind altering substance.
According to my current experience, the followings have improved my perception: cannabis, mdma, mda, piracetam,
Alcohol, cocaine, ... never improve something interesting for me ...
Mushr? I was too tripped to be focused on the details of the sound. Maybe there is some species at the appropriate level ?! (not too much according to FloggedSynapse)

Under "certain circumstances", I can easily abx the mp3 (aps) and the wav of a fairly large number of track (particularly with aggressive content in the treble). I generally failed to have the same result under normal circumstances.

I have also noticed that some drugs can modify your spectral balance. Mdma for example can create a kind of sensibility in the very high frequencies (>10 khz). So I can't let go a mix without a normal listening.

I have also notice that more than 10 hours of mix in the studio can give me a very good perception of the details ... but then I can miss the consistency and the balance of the overall track.

BTW, someone has a good t®ip for me? 

Cheers,

Marcan
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: FloggedSynapse on 2007-04-20 22:46:33
Seems to me "better hearing" is being presented as a form of  "better living." It is not being classified as "same living" or "worse living" I do not think.  I rarely see posts like these on the part of responsible scientific types doing real scientific research.  I see lots of it by people who abuse drugs, though, and try to rationalize their behavior.  Not that this is the case here, of course.  I am sure that the cache of mushrooms has been used for scientific research for the past several years.  The tripping was only an accidental by-product of this research, right?  This is, I am sure, real scientific research. 


Good grief. Now you're reading far too much into this. I'm not trying to equate tripping with "better living". That's all you. Sheesh. And I'm not trying to rationalize my behavior either - if I want to trip I do so, no need to come up with an excuse. I simply noticed that small amounts of this drug seem to have a very noticeable effect on my hearing, much more so than other recreational drug that I've tried - and I've tried just about all of them  Take it or leave it. It's interesting that the most uptight responses to this topic are likely from people that have never tried shrooms. 

It would be interesting to see some 'real' scientific research on this topic though I doubt it's going to happen anytime soon.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Synthetic Soul on 2007-04-21 08:01:51
I suppose that could be tested in controlled experiments. I can't see it happening, since this would risk the health of the participants, so what reputable academic institution would undertake such experiments?
I can't help but think of the 1955 Panorama special in which Christopher Mayhew (http://www.jgames.co.uk/title/Christopher_Mayhew) took mescaline and filmed the results.

First off mushrooms do not damage your health - that's rubbish. Well you certainly may not be comfortable while 'under the influence' you aren't going to be physically harmed by them. As I tried to mention in my original post a very low dose - below what it would take to trip - is all that's needed to effect hearing.
It's possible that you could physically harm yourself as a result of psychological effects.  It is also possible that you could develop psychological problems from overuse.  I don't think that you can deny that their use is potentially harmful.  The problem with mushrooms, as opposed to labratory-created drugs, is that it is difficult to gauge their potency.

I have also notice that more than 10 hours of mix in the studio can give me a very good perception of the details ... but then I can miss the consistency and the balance of the track.
I do wonder whether the issue here is down to concentration levels.

It's interesting that the most uptight responses to this topic are likely from people that have never tried shrooms. 
Firstly that is an assumption on your part, and secondly... well... it's just plain dumb.  Contrary to popular belief, smileys don't excuse such statements.

I'm sure you are aware that this thread is on the edge, and irresponsible statements will not help its cause.  It would be a shame to see it pulled because of a few careless words.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: de Mon on 2007-04-21 09:14:39
Can you prove your listening abilities become better or is it just your hallucination? There should be a sober spectacor with you to prove it.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: znode on 2007-04-21 09:16:32
It would be interesting to actually measure this and see if there's a real difference in hearing acuity, or if it's all in your head 


But hearing IS mostly in your head - so much postprocessing is done by the brain that it is impossible to define the sense of hearing without it.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Akuostophile on 2007-04-21 15:38:04
It would be interesting to actually measure this and see if there's a real difference in hearing acuity, or if it's all in your head

I don't know a about a permanent change, but I do think there is  a change. Many years ago when I did that sort of thing I noticed the same effect. One interesting note: my brother and I spent a night listening to music while doing shrooms and, on the afternoon following the trip, we turned the music back on only to notice that the volume was far too low for ordinary listening.

If I had the opportunity (training in the area and govt. approval) I would research the drug(s) myself. It might prove to offer breakthough opportunies for the hearing impaired. Problematically, our society has had such a reaction to the likes of Timothy Leary that research on the possible positive effects of psychoactive drugs is nonexistant.

If studies were conducted scientifically (i.e. using a control group, double blind, controled dosages, etc.) the risk to the test subjects would be virtually nil (particularly using controled dosages - - the really weird stuff starts at high dosages while the effect on hearing begins at a fairly low dose that has no real effect on the concious mind). I'm a scientist in a different field, old now and not inclined to the excesses of youth, but I remain curious as to the potential benefit that could be derived from this research.

Later
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: The Seeker on 2007-04-21 17:19:05
Terence McKenna stated that even at moderate dosages, hallucinogens heighten visual and auditory acuity.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Cornie on 2007-04-21 18:24:00
It would be interesting to see some 'real' scientific research on this topic though I doubt it's going to happen anytime soon.


Phenethylamines I Have Known And Loved:
A Chemical Love Story
By Alexander and Ann Shulgin
http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online...al/pihkal.shtml (http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal.shtml)

Tryptamines i Have Known And Loved:
The Chemistry Continues
By Alexander and Ann Shulgin
http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online...al/tihkal.shtml (http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal.shtml)

Both chronicling over 20 years research of the 2 main psychoactive molecules - Phenethylamine & Tryptamines and the literally thousands of molecular analogs....
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Akuostophile on 2007-04-21 21:04:49
[quote name='Cornie' date='Apr 21 2007, 13:24' post='486988']
[quote name='FloggedSynapse' post='486849' date='Apr 20 2007, 13:46']

Both chronicling over 20 years research of the 2 main psychoactive molecules - Phenethylamine & Tryptamines and the literally thousands of molecular analogs....
[/quote]

Neither of which deal with the issues discussed in this forum.  Molecular structure does not the effect on hearing explain, nor does they test the efficacy of the drugs on hearing acuity.


BTW in my earlier post this "It would be interesting to actually measure this and see if there's a real difference in hearing acuity, or if it's all in your head " was a quote from a previous post.

Grace.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Donunus on 2007-04-21 21:20:19
are we talking listening like daredevil here?
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Cornie on 2007-04-21 21:27:32



Both chronicling over 20 years research of the 2 main psychoactive molecules - Phenethylamine & Tryptamines and the literally thousands of molecular analogs....



Neither of which deal with the issues discussed in this forum.  Molecular structure does not the effect on hearing explain, nor does they test the efficacy of the drugs on hearing acuity.


BTW in my earlier post this "It would be interesting to actually measure this and see if there's a real difference in hearing acuity, or if it's all in your head " was a quote from a previous post.

Grace.


Actually, my reply was to FloggedSynapse - as you can tell from the quotes. And the links do apply to the question.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Akuostophile on 2007-04-21 21:36:01
are we talking listening like daredevil here?


Not really. The movie Daredevil made his auditory sensations like that of a bat. The sensation under shrooms include increased acuity and, at higher doses, the representation of sounds as visuals (I've forgotten the term, but someone mentioned it in this thread) but the visuals are patterns and colors. It's been 30 years for me so my memory is a bit faded. I still would like to see someone really analize the effect on hearing. Were I to do it over again I might like to do it myself (not the experince - - the analysis).

On a related note: while the texts quoted in a previous do go into more detail than mere molecular structure, they don't do a real scientific analysis of the effects of shrooms on hearing. They report some impressions etc.

Grace.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Akuostophile on 2007-04-21 21:50:33
Actually, my reply was to FloggedSynapse - as you can tell from the quotes. And the links do apply to the question.

How? That is could you point me to a place within the texts you linked that would show that they conducted double blind, controlled, multiple subjects studies of the effects of psy. drugs on hearing acuity? I quickly scanned the materials and saw nothing that I would describe as a scientific analysis of the effects on hearing acuity. I certainly may have missed it.

Please give a more specific reference w/in the text that you would consider a definitive scientific study on hearing and I'd love to take a look (I don't want to read the whole thing). I really am interested in the topic.

Grace
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Cornie on 2007-04-21 23:47:58
Actually, my reply was to FloggedSynapse - as you can tell from the quotes. And the links do apply to the question.

How? That is could you point me to a place within the texts you linked that would show that they conducted double blind, controlled, multiple subjects studies of the effects of psy. drugs on hearing acuity? I quickly scanned the materials and saw nothing that I would describe as a scientific analysis of the effects on hearing acuity. I certainly may have missed it.

Please give a more specific reference w/in the text that you would consider a definitive scientific study on hearing and I'd love to take a look (I don't want to read the whole thing). I really am interested in the topic.

Grace


While it is true that neither book deals specifically with the effects of psy. drugs(sic) on hearing, they are 2 examples of research that has studied the effects of a large number of psychoactive molecular groupings - on the human organism

btw.... no where did I state that those links were to the full texts (they both run close to 1000 pages) - I was merely pointing them out as avenues of further reading.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Akuostophile on 2007-04-22 03:22:52

Actually, my reply was to FloggedSynapse - as you can tell from the quotes. And the links do apply to the question.

Grace


While it is true that neither book deals specifically with the effects of psy. drugs(sic) on hearing, they are 2 examples of research that has studied the effects of a large number of psychoactive molecular groupings - on the human organism

btw.... no where did I state that those links were to the full texts (they both run close to 1000 pages) - I was merely pointing them out as avenues of further reading.


Wow. Testy aren't we? Even to the degree of placing a [sic] for an abbreviation. Shoot, without spell check, grammar check, and a good editor/co-author, nothing I write would ever get published (that's evident by the careless errors in an earlier post), but thanks for pointing out the error [sic]. Now, should that previous sentence have had a semi-colon? Ah, who cares?

Now, on to the topic. This thread, this forum, and this site are about sound; not the "effects of psychoactive drugs on the human organism". You gave these links in response to a post that said "It would be interesting to see some 'real' scientific research on this topic though I doubt it's going to happen anytime soon." The "this topic" to which he/she refers, is that of the effect of psychoactive drugs on hearing. Those links apparently don't have much on this topic.

As an example of decent research (that has nothing to do with hearing), one might consult Rick Dobin's follow-up of Pahnke's "Good Friday Experiment"; however, one might note that he is not replicating Pahnke's study. Why? I'd bet that our current culture wouldn't permit it. I'm sincere in hoping to find specific scientific research on the effects of psychoactive drugs on hearing, but your current post doesn't do that. Thanks for the links, but the question regarding scientific research on hearing still remains (and when I say "scientific research" I mean research that has basic experimental design as a starting point). As the original poster questioned, I too doubt if any real scientific research on this topic will emerge anytime soon. More's the pity.


On a related note:
Personally I don't need those texts to tell me "the effects of a large number of psychoactive molecular groupings - on the human organism" 'cause I've already been there and done that 30+ years ago. I could have written some of those accounts in the texts myself!

Grace
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Lyx on 2007-04-22 15:38:04
Psychedelics in general (not just sound) rarely "improve" ones perception and never improve ones *processing*. Most of the time, they simply *change* how we perceive. Regarding sound, we may notice aspects of the sound, which we didnt notice before, while at the same time NOT perceiving some aspects, which we knew already. So, it is shifting and manipulation - not improvement.

There are two reason, why it makes no sense to use them for ABXing: first, if hypothetically via psychedelics you can notice lots of artifacts, which you didnt notice before, then this is acutually a GOOD sign - it means that the encoder sucessfully threw away lots of information, which we cannot hear in usual mindstates. Using psychedelics for ABXing is stupid and poisons the results - unless you want an encoder specifically for listening while on psy - good luck finding a coder to put that much effort in, just for this. The second reason is that the use of psychedelics leads to less robust and reliable reasoning and cognitive abilities. This is because psy changes (and in rare cases widens) our PERCEPTION, without adjusting our PROCESSING for this. So, the consumer is confronted with effects which he cannot reliably understand and analyze. People who do have the necessary processing-skills for analyzing alternate mind-states, dont need psy in the first place, because they can shift their mindstates by themselves, without relying on material enforcement. Thus, the users of psy-drugs typically take them, because they lack coresponding processing-skills. This makes most psy-users quite unrealiable in the cognitive domain.

A much more interesting question would be, if people who do have more control over their consciousness and who can manipulate it with their will, are able to spot artifacts, which others cannot. On the other hand - taking me as an example - when i am in such states, i have better things to do that ABXing - it would be the last thing i would care about - which throws us back to an earlier question: who should actually use an encoder which accounts for such usually unperceivable effects? When there is no problem/need, then who needs a solution?

- Lyx
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: boojum on 2007-04-22 21:14:58
[/quote]
As the original poster questioned, I too doubt if any real scientific research on this topic will emerge anytime soon. More's the pity.
[/quote]


No, probably because there is little need.  Just as we do not need research on how much better we can drive when under the influence of psychoactive drugs.  Why folks keep returning to the question of how much better things are "under the influence" only reenforces my understanding that most of us are unable to learn from other's experience.  And, by way of closing, here are the four rationalizations of addictive behavior: "I can take it or leave it.",  "I can quit any time I want.",  "I am not hurting anybody but myself.", and "If I ever get as bad as he/she is, I'll quit."

When you have been playing with those "non-addictive" drugs for a number of years that is recognized as an addiction.  If it is not, try quitting.  ;o)  Huh?

Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Lyx on 2007-04-22 21:21:09
Sorry, but the above post serves no useful purpose in this thread, except of provoking an off-topic discussion about drug use, morals and ethics. And from there on, things typically start getting very irrational and typically ends in everyone disagreeing with each other.

- Lyx
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Kees de Visser on 2007-04-22 22:32:43
There are probably quite some studies on the subject. I've found one from 1976 on PubMed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=933252&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum).
Excerpt:
Quote
Marihuana has been said to improve hearing. Two earlier studies have supported this contention. In this investigation, marihuana or placebo cigarettes were randomly smoked by 30 subjects, 15 in each group. Before and after smoking, batteries of standard audiological tests were carried out; pure tone threshold (air and bone conduction), speech reception threshold, speech discrimination at most comfortable level, and relative acoustic impedance measurements including middle ear pressure, stapedial reflexes, compliance, tympanic mobility, and Eustachian tube function. A comparison of pre and post smoking auditory test scores did not demonstrate any significant change in auditory function in the marihuana or placebo group. However, as all subjects had normal hearing and maximum speech discrimination scores pre-smoking, it can only be concluded that smoking marihuana did not worsen the hearing--the experiments were not designed to see whether it would improve hearing.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: moozooh on 2007-04-22 23:58:47
I could have written some of those accounts in the texts myself!

What you really "could have" and should have done, is at least read what the man was talking about, before shooting him down. Especially things like that (http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal04.shtml):
Quote
A physician friend of mine has expressed it using a neurological vocabulary: "If it [the drug] delayed only the neural response to a stimulus, then pitch might have been shifted down, and yet harmony between notes should have been preserved. A variable delay related to the pitch of the stimulus would produce the disharmony but would not explain the preservation of normal relationship between single tones. It seems clear that this compound affects the auditory processing centers in the brain in a complex way which deserves further scientific study. The lack of significant toxic effects should make this compound useful for further studies."
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: marcan on 2007-04-23 00:17:56
I start a comparable subject few years ago here on ha:
Does Cannabis Increase Your Audio Peception? (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=4349&hl=cannabis#)

The question here is "psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?".

Obviously, some substance can improve our physical performance, so why some might not improve our perception (and hearing in this case)?

As I already stated in this thread, amongst the substance I have already experiment, mdma and mda gave me the stronger improvement. In order to be sure I wasn't "hallucinating", I verified this with abx test. I was able to easily distinguish a certain number of mp3 (aps) with the original wav. I failed to reproduce the same performance under normal circumstances. I was also able to hear the limitation of the AD/DA (a good one tho, Apogee Rosetta 800), but I have to experiment a little bit more about this (I will make a recording session with an analogue tape and the Apogee in order to compare them).

According to what was suggest in this thread, I tried some shrooms this weekend. My first impression is that it might improve the hearing but it clearly makes the music more enjoyable. It was less spectacular (in terms of hearing) than mdma but the improvement seems to be more balanced (the improvement with mdma is more sensible in the highs for me). However I didn't have the chance to confirm an improvement with abx test. Next time I will try to perform some…

For the information, Psilocybin and psilocin (mushrooms active components) and mdma act both on the serotonin (neurotransmitter), creating a large release of it in the brain. However mdma is much more toxic than mushrooms.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Lyx on 2007-04-23 00:29:48
As I already stated in this thread, amongst the substance I have already experiment, mdma and mda gave me the stronger improvement. In order to be sure I wasn't "hallucinating", I verified this with abx test. I was able to easily distinguish a certain number of mp3 (aps) with the original wav. I failed to reproduce the same performance under normal circumstances.

The test-methodology is valid, but its conclusions are based on flawed logic. What you verified is only, that you could distinguish a "lossy psychoacoustically compressed" music file via substances, but not without. This does NOT automatically mean an "improvement" in hearing. What it verifies, is that your hearing changes. This could be due to overall improvement, or just due to shifting.

Why? Well, take this hypothetical scenario: we compress a file psychoacoustically in a way, which throws away all information, which we cannot hear under normal states of mind. Then you come along and via substances notice the missing information. Next we compress another file psychoacoustically, but this time in a way, which is optimized to the mindstate which you enter via your choosen substance. Now you cannot spot any difference anymore. Then another person comes along and identifies the file easily, because he is NOT on the influence of a substance. What is an "improvement" here? Who has "increased" hearing? None of both - in this example, both testpersons simply hear "differently", not "better". To verify any claim about "improvement", you need to take such scenarios into account - else your conclusions are invalid.

- Lyx
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: greynol on 2007-04-23 00:35:42
Perhaps new psychoacoustic models can be created to fulfill the needs of those on psychotropics.

<runs away>
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: marcan on 2007-04-23 00:40:56
Perhaps new psychoacoustic models can be created to fulfill the needs of those on psychotropics.

<runs away>

  I was just thinking about that. You will have mdma encoder, shrooms encoder, booth encoder (probably the more compressed)...
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: marcan on 2007-04-23 00:51:36
The test-methodology is valid, but its conclusions are based on flawed logic. What you verified is only, that you could distinguish a "lossy psychoacoustically compressed" music file via substances, but not without. This does NOT automatically mean an "improvement" in hearing. What it verifies, is that your hearing changes. This could be due to overall improvement, or just due to shifting.

Well one can say that the accumulation of both experiences is somehow an improvement. As you can state that you have a better perception of an object with two different angles rather than one.

Why? Well, take this hypothetical scenario: we compress a file psychoacoustically in a way, which throws away all information....
- Lyx

Except the low pass filter, mp3 compression doesn't really throw away information, it just create some quantisation noise where we are less able to hear it. However this doesn't change the burden of your point.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Lyx on 2007-04-23 00:59:16
Well one can say that the accumulation of both experiences is somehow an improvement. As you can state that you have a better perception of an object with two different angles rather than one.

Indeed. "Different/multiple perspectives" is the main advantage (and the source of the attractivity and fascination) of "mental relativity" - to which psychedelic drugs are one - but not the only possible - ticket.

- Lyx
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Woodinville on 2007-04-24 19:09:31
Well, I haven't a clue about the subject at hand, but various toxins can indeed cause a symptom called "hyperacusis", in which your auditory threshold is temporarily lowered, and during which loudness growth is huge.  It's usually not good for you in the long term, as you might guess by the term "toxin".
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: krabapple on 2007-04-27 05:37:02
and indeed, hallucinogens have long been associated with auditory hyperacusis.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: turtledude23 on 2007-04-29 19:34:44
But are you saying you can hear better all the time are just while you're tripping on shrooms? Obviously when you're using them it increases all perceptions but I think that them actually altering your brain or body chemistry positively over long term usage is possible.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: dlorde on 2007-05-03 16:47:01
I think it depends what is meant by 'improve'. Objective tests can relatively easily show whether there is any change in auditory acuity and discrimination, but it is less easy to measure changes in the perception of musical pieces. In my fairly long experience of sativa cannabinoids (more adrenergic than soporific), the effects seem to involve changes in the focus of attention - somewhat akin to tunnel vision, it becomes easier to follow an individual instrument or to focus on specific aspects of the melody, rhythm, harmonies, etc., while the overall coherence of the piece becomes less apparent. This process doesn't require any increase in auditory efficiency or acuity, just a subtle change in the way the signals are processed, for example, one could speculate, by more emphasis (or less filtering/damping) of input in the direct focus of attention and more damping of other input.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: rebinator on 2011-06-24 07:17:39
Shrooms (4-HO-DMT) imroving hearing? I daresay they do.

As far as transferability of the data learned, well, that is literacy dependent. For example, one might be treated to a symphony of polyphonic guitar lead and anthemic choral that simply evaporates under normal listening conditions. In mixes where a distorted comping instrument predominates, one might find that the ambience and depth of field (the juice) are completely obliterated, and the volumes at which the said juice can be recovered is well into the subliminal range for most baseline people (That is why most people can't tell the difference between bit/sample-rates, or lossy/non-lossy; because most of the critical information is lost underneath the mix, or compressed out of existence). The important thing to do when faced with all this new information is to transcribe those leads you hear, or at least commit to memory what one can. Hallucination or 'real' is an ineffability, and irrelevant.

Some find that the entire mix explodes, especially at the near-subliminal.


As far as anyone questioning the 'morals' or 'healthfulness' of such an endeavor, spare me. I suppose a more practical engagement of any of your points would be the question of practicality of replicating the psychoacoustic-experience without having to tamper with the neuro-biological substrate.  I would stick to that in this thread if I were you... the closest I have come is by falling asleep completely baseline before bed with the stereo at a suitably low level... the awareness of the track while dreaming is comparable to the breathtaking clarity IMHO.

The main thing is that a tremendous amount of information is contained in the ambient part of a sound, and most people can't or won't care. After all, there are usually only a handful of discernible voices, and those can be heard at any level, even the severely distorted.

Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: mudlord on 2011-06-25 11:33:52
Got any ABX tests to prove those claims?
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: db1989 on 2011-06-25 14:13:36
rebinator, I think most readers would appreciate a citation or empirical evidence (see ToS (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3974)#8, whose conditions you accepted upon registering) for your claim that vast improvements of hearing and awareness attend the psychelic experience, especially as you deemed these phenomena significant enough to bump a topic after almost 50 months…

I imagine it’s natural that you would think/feel/whatever that things were different, given that the drugs are by definition mind-altering, but subjective experience of one person is of no indication or use to others. And, as ToS#8 makes clear, Hydrogenaudio eschews such anecdotal evidence in order to maintain discussion that is evidence-based and trustworthy for readers who may be easily led; this puts it in contrast to many other audio-based websites, and for the better I would say.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: rebinator on 2011-07-27 06:53:05
would you ever accept transcriptions? The extra parts can certainly be recorded... a side by side comparison of two lifts, one baseline and the other not, could serve as your ABX... 
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: rebinator on 2011-07-27 07:30:57
by the very terms of service, then, the question of whether Psylocybin improves the sense of hearing is ill-framed, and not an appropriate question for this forum (perhaps I misinterpreted the question)
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/style_...default/dry.gif (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

if it was important for me to "prove a claim", as you so put it, I would probably put up a Sibelius or Reason based transcription of a song with and without. Someone here mentioned an ABX, and I think that's probably the closest thing that a subjective act like hearing will ever provide us with. I suppose the only way is for one to test , which may or may not be practical. Perhaps a double-blind study involving ear-training exercises and multiple copyists, controlling for other hearing potentiators (including nootropics, or abstinence from alcohol) would placate those who are loath to believe certain behavior could have any positive effect. Mixes could be procured and individual tracks boosted individually to confirm the existence of the actual source if a whole voice is suspected to be the product of an intoxicated person's imagination. Any input on the logistics of such empiricism would be much appreciated.

It is natural that I "feel that way" (talk about the ineffability of the experience!), but my reasons are sound, no pun intended. I'm sorry if my words are considered spurious or anecdotal, but I stand by my 'claim'. Perhaps this _is_ the wrong crowd, and if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to my musical enjoyment.

(PS) I find your officiousness pleasantly diverting, but not enough, I'm afraid, to get me to alter my expressed opinion. I'm sorry if my statement was in violation of sentiment and ordinance, but perhaps evidence is pending?  peace


rebinator, I think most readers would appreciate a citation or empirical evidence (see ToS (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3974)#8, whose conditions you accepted upon registering) for your claim that vast improvements of hearing and awareness attend the psychelic experience, especially as you deemed these phenomena significant enough to bump a topic after almost 50 months…

I imagine it’s natural that you would think/feel/whatever that things were different, given that the drugs are by definition mind-altering, but subjective experience of one person is of no indication or use to others. And, as ToS#8 makes clear, Hydrogenaudio eschews such anecdotal evidence in order to maintain discussion that is evidence-based and trustworthy for readers who may be easily led; this puts it in contrast to many other audio-based websites, and for the better I would say.

Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: mjb2006 on 2011-07-28 05:15:46
rebinator, the subjective experiences you describe aren't the problem, per se. You, alone, perceive whatever you perceive. You might even have a way of quantifying those perceptions and recording how they differ when you're in different mental states. But you don't stop there; you publicly imply that these differences in perception are generally experienced, and this forms your defense of your initial, concern-raising claim that shrooms generally improve hearing.

Even if you say these experiences are only applicable to you or are just your opinion, no one can verify them because the claims are not supported with empirical evidence, thus they're unwelcome on this board.

I'm sure more than a few readers can sympathize with your excitement about having noticed things while not-sober/not-fully-awake that you didn't notice while relatively cogent, and vice-versa. Likewise, it's natural for you to want others to appreciate that this phenomenon is real, i.e. that there's "more to the music" than just what one normally notices—or more broadly, that one's normal/sober/waking way of perceiving sensory input isn't necessarily synonymous with being completely unimpaired or having a complete, correct focus on and understanding of what actually exists. You may be surprised to find that although it's a foreign concept to some, this really isn't that radical a mode of thought; it's the kind of thing covered in introductory psychology and philosophy courses, and many people come to the same realizations without the aid of psychedelics.

Research to demonstrate your and others' subjective experience in this regard and to measure its consistency would probably be interesting, and it might even persuade a few skeptics to be less dismissive, but it would be quite unreasonable to conclude from such research that hearing is "improved" by psychedelics (the first claim you made) and that the effective is "positive", or even that "a tremendous amount of information is contained in the ambient part of a sound". I'm essentially echoing points made in the original posts of this thread when I ask: who's to say what constitutes an "improvement" or whether the details missed by the sober listener are important information? Even among strictly sober listeners with similar hearing, you'll find that some people notice & appreciate things that most people miss, and they miss things that most notice. So how do you even establish a baseline or get a sense of whose perception is more "correct"? You can't, really.

I'm reminded of the [a href='index.php?showtopic=40690']"fundamental hearer" vs. "overtone hearer" research[/a] from a few years back. It's fascinating to find that the general population pretty solidly breaks down into one group or the other, and it's fun to wonder about the ramifications of that, but it would be improper to say that one group hears "better" or "more of the music" than the other.

So the easiest way to satisfy TOS#8 is to retract your claims. If you did manage to collect & share evidence in support of the claim that different mental states yield different awarenesses, then you wouldn't have to worry about retracting that part, but you'd still be on the hook for the more important and less plausible claim that shrooms "improve" hearing. I suggest just bailing now
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: db1989 on 2011-07-28 20:42:37
Your idea of transcribing in both states and comparing the results is quiet interesting—but: How exactly could such a test be statistically analysed? Wouldn’t we need to find someone whose abilities in this area exceed yours even when they’re ‘sober’? etc.

I don’t think anyone would try to dissuade you from performing your own test if you want to, but as mjb2006 said, any results would only be of limited use as they’d only be representative of you as an individual. So, feel free to extend your test to a statistically usable sample size!
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: pdq on 2011-07-28 21:01:57
I don't see how one could do a valid ABX test on "chemical enhancement", because it could never be double blind. The subject could easily tell if he was "enhanced" or not.
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: klonuo on 2011-07-28 22:02:54
if it was important for me to "prove a claim", as you so put it, I would probably put up a Sibelius or Reason based transcription of a song with and without.

If you really have such skills it would be great. I'm also curious in hearing your patchwork
Title: psilocybin mushrooms improve hearing?
Post by: Bartholomew MacGruber on 2012-03-01 07:04:16
Supposedly LSD at some dosage can increase the ability to distinguish bewteen a regular face and a geometric shape which is an inverted face, something that is normally very difficult to do.  Like others may have said, it may somehow increase the ability to hear really soft sounds by filtering out the soft sounds from the background noise.