Hi all, came across the site and thought I'd join up. Based in the UK and have been getting into Headphones more & more due to more travel by train as well as the fact that my wife doesn't like me blasting music of an evening...
Anyhow, I've got a set of HD800's arriving in the new year at a really good price via a friend who is getting them for me at a wholesale rate. I've always bought Senn's as they've always been reliable and give decent sound. I recently bought a set of Amperiors and love them for travelling. I bought a Fiio E17 followed by an e09K for use at home with my MacBook Pro Retina plugged in via optical cable.
Now having looked at various reviews / sites I'm getting more confused as folk keep saying you need a 2k plus amp to drive the Hd800's and that they're somehow 'picky' when it comes to amp / dacs?
I use the E17 on a daily basis and love the sound it gives me , not sure that the E09K makes much difference for me with the Amperiors or a set of Ie80's that I also have, but I was putting that down to the low impedance of the headphones ...would I be correct in this?
I bought a Fiio E17 followed by an e09K for use at home with my MacBook Pro Retina plugged in via optical cable.
This should be fine.
Now having looked at various reviews / sites I'm getting more confused as folk keep saying you need a 2k plus amp to drive the Hd800's and that they're somehow 'picky' when it comes to amp / dacs?
Don't listen to stupid people.
I use the E17 on a daily basis and love the sound it gives me , not sure that the E09K makes much difference for me with the Amperiors or a set of Ie80's that I also have, but I was putting that down to the low impedance of the headphones ...would I be correct in this?
THe difference between amps is more pronounced with low impedance headphones. If the amp works well with your low impedance devices, that means its well designed. If you switch to higher impedance headphones, you'll present a smaller load and thus work the amp less hard. Generally good amps aren't needed with high impedance headphones (since they're closer to line in impedance) until the sensitivity gets very low, in which case you might want more voltage to make sure they're loud enough.
Thanks for the reply. Spec of the E09K is as below, does this seem okay?
Dock Designed for Connecting Fiio E17
Output: 1W/16 Ohms or 80mW/600 Ohms
Frequency Response: 20Hz – 20kHz
Two-Channel Output for 1/4″ & 1/8″ Plugs
Texas Instruments Main Power Amp IC
Dual Audio Outputs & USB Interface
E17 Dock Facilitates Charging & Syncing
Internal Audio Buffer Amplification
Built-in Power Converter Module
LED Power Indicator Light & Gain Switch
Thanks for the reply. Spec of the E09K is as below, does this seem okay?
I would basically never trust the published specs, but if they're true that amp has pretty high output voltage, but fairly crappy output impedance at ~ 34 ohms. That means it'll be loud with higher impedance headphones and won't drive low impedance headphones all that well.
If the specs for the HD800 are accurate (also questionable), then you basically have no use for the E09K as it has worse output impedance and you won't be able to use the extra voltage without blowing out your ear drums.
So a no go with the E09K then chaps?
Any other recommendations that won't break the bank? Something with an Amp/ DAC and optical link?
Any other recommendations that won't break the bank? Something with an Amp/ DAC and optical link?
Yes, use the Fiio E17 you already have. Its better suited for the task, at least assuming those specs aren't off by a huge amount.
Ok we'll as I have both I will give them a go, didn't consider the E17 to drive them, as on head fi it's been said they'll sound crap.
Ok we'll as I have both I will give them a go, didn't consider the E17 to drive them, as on head fi it's been said they'll sound crap.
If someone tells you something unreasonable, like that a high quality amp will sound like "crap" in a situation its designed to operate in, its probably best to ignore them.
Any other recommendations that won't break the bank? Something with an Amp/ DAC and optical link?
I run the hd800 from a Xonar STX, thanks to the advices I got from this forum too.
Ok we'll as I have both I will give them a go, didn't consider the E17 to drive them, as on head fi it's been said they'll sound crap.
If someone tells you something unreasonable, like that a high quality amp will sound like "crap" in a situation its designed to operate in, its probably best to ignore them.
However I didn't consider the E17 to be high quality at £99, or am I wrong to equate the low cost with quality in this instance?
However I didn't consider the E17 to be high quality at £99, or am I wrong to equate the low cost with quality in this instance?
Well, if all you need is a transparent source, you don't need to spend huge amount of cash.
Otherwise, there's some confusion regarding expensive amps on the market, and ignorance from consumers allows big prices.
You might look at this other thread too:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=95106 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=95106)
Yes I saw that earlier.
Ok we'll as I have both I will give them a go, didn't consider the E17 to drive them, as on head fi it's been said they'll sound crap.
If someone tells you something unreasonable, like that a high quality amp will sound like "crap" in a situation its designed to operate in, its probably best to ignore them.
However I didn't consider the E17 to be high quality at £99, or am I wrong to equate the low cost with quality in this instance?
The total of all the components in an amp is maybe $25 or 30 plus assembly and design costs, so looking at cost doesn't really tell you much about quality. Throw in 7 or 8 for a good USB + DAC IC. All of these devices cost essentially nothing in terms of components, you're mostly just paying to cover the cost of designing it, which can be quite high if the market for the device is really small. Conversely, the more popular a device is, the lower the cost because volume greatly reduces the portion of fixed costs each device must cover.
The total of all the components in an amp is maybe $25 or 30 plus assembly and design costs, so looking at cost doesn't really tell you much about quality. Throw in 7 or 8 for a good USB + DAC IC. All of these devices cost essentially nothing in terms of components, you're mostly just paying to cover the cost of designing it, which can be quite high if the market for the device is really small. Conversely, the more popular a device is, the lower the cost because volume greatly reduces the portion of fixed costs each device must cover.
Well, this argument won't be enough to explain the price of 2000 euros for the HDVD 800 (amp done by Sennheiser) . 5000$ is by the way, for most expensive amp I've seen in the market (it was indicated for the stax 009, at head-fi ).
5000$ is by the way, for most expensive amp I've seen in the market (it was indicated for the stax 009, at head-fi ).
haha well, thats more then I pay for some RF amps with incomparably better specs then anything you get in audio. I guess thats mostly just about people with more money then sense.
We shall see... should hopefully get my hd800's in 3 weeks time and I'll give them a whirl with both. The issue is that you're never sure whether better sound can be achieved with another amp dac and trying them out is difficult without purchasing first.
I saw a YouTube movie with a chap trying the hd800's + e09k and said it worked well.
Btw saw more info on the hd800's and a test that says the impedance is a lot higher than 300 oms.
The issue is that you're never sure whether better sound can be achieved with another amp dac and trying them out is difficult without purchasing first.
The other issue, is that placebo effect is too much underestimated.
Your expectations will have an impact on your listening experience.
I have E17 and HD800 here. E17 does a good work. Without miracles nor issues. Just enough good.
What bother me is that E17 supports 44.1 kHz, 16 bits and 96 kHz, 24 bits but not 44.1kHz, 24 bits. 24 bits decoding makes sense for CDs. So to get 24 bits I use SoX resampler (lvqcl's foobar plugin) with best quality, 44.1 kHz -> 96 kHz. Lucky we that SoX is a transparent resampler with high speed for realtime playback.
I've tried to compare it to EMU Pre Tracker. It sounds different.
During first day I was impressed by E17 with gain setting at +6 dB. It was punchy and put a lot of energy on phones. But ears become tired more quickly with this gain setting.
And nothing comes for free. The next day I've already noticed that 6dB gain puts more energy but at cost of a bit higher distortion levels. That's why I think You can't just try for 15 minutes a device and then make decision to buy it or not. You're gradually getting into all advantages and disadvantages of it from day to day.
I prefer EMU Pre Tracker for critical listening and generally for all kind of music and sometimes E17 with 6db gain (or without it) for loud metal.
AFAIK a designers decides how much gain to put to amplifier for default setting. So when gain's setting is set to 0dB an amps still can have some moderate amplification of source (gain +1 to +3dB)
It's question of a balance, more/less energetic/punchy at cost of a bit higher distortion levels.
AFAIK a designers decides how much gain to put to amplifier for default setting. So when gain's setting is set to 0dB an amps still can have some moderate amplification of source (gain +1 to +3dB)
Well yes, the output volume you actually listen at is completely arbitrary, so the gain is arbitrary as well. Thats why we have volume knobs
It's question of a balance, more/less energetic/punchy at cost of a bit higher distortion levels.
No, if distortion is going up that implies that you're running out of voltage and need a higher voltage amp. If you just listen at 44.1/16 and set gain to 0dB with no processing at all, is the volume too quiet?
No, if distortion is going up that implies that you're running out of voltage and need a higher voltage amp. If you just listen at 44.1/16 and set gain to 0dB with no processing at all, is the volume too quiet?
No, I don't get such noticeble distortion with gain at 0 and it can be as loud as one could wish.
While it sound really different with enabled gain.
No, if distortion is going up that implies that you're running out of voltage and need a higher voltage amp. If you just listen at 44.1/16 and set gain to 0dB with no processing at all, is the volume too quiet?
No, I don't get such noticeble distortion with gain at 0 and it can be as loud as one could wish.
While it sound really different with enabled gain.
Do you mean the digital gain then? You shouldn't be changing that at all if its already loud enough, as digital volume control will introduce clipping.
Should investigate more if it's a digital gain but afaics it is.
Then it would pretty crappy situation for e17 and all its users because each time when the device runs out of battery it will reset my previous set of gain to 0dB to default +6dB. And there are a bunch of reviews of people talking about how they use e17 with gain +6dB no matter what.
Is it ok to run the hd800 without an external amp? As in directly plugging it in to my ipod nano 7g? From this review here (http://www.inearmatters.net/2012/11/impression-apple-nano-7g-lightning-to.html) the measured output impedance is 1.1Ω and maximum headphone voltage stated as being nearly 1.9 Vrms. Is that enough power to sufficiently drive the 300Ω impedance SPL 102dB Senn's?
Is it ok to run the hd800 without an external amp? As in directly plugging it in to my ipod nano 7g? From this review here (http://www.inearmatters.net/2012/11/impression-apple-nano-7g-lightning-to.html) the measured output impedance is 1.1? and maximum headphone voltage stated as being nearly 1.9 Vrms. Is that enough power to sufficiently drive the 300? impedance SPL 102dB Senn's?
If those specs are correct, the Nano 7G would be comparable to the e17 in terms of output, and probably better then most external headphone amps.
Fiio give the specs here for the E17 and say drive ability from 16 to 100 ohms...
http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx...enuID=105026002 (http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000014895351&MenuID=105026002)
that amp has pretty high output voltage, but fairly crappy output impedance at ~ 34 ohms
Where did you get that figure? FiiO rates it (http://www.fiio.com.cn/products/index.aspx?ID=100000017625376&MenuID=105026003) at < 10?.
I would basically never trust the published specs, but if they're true that amp has pretty high output voltage, but fairly crappy output impedance at ~ 34 ohms.
Where did you get that figure?
As I said, those are the numbers GSARider quoted from Fiio with the output impedance calculated from the speced power per load impedance.
FiiO rates it at < 10?.
"I would basically never trust the published specs, "
I'll let you draw your own conclusions as to why the specs are contradictory.
I used formulas from NwAvGuy's blog and I came up with 12.279Ω, which is much closer to the rated spec. I must admit that I'm a highschool drop-out and I haven't had to solve an equation in nearly 15 years, so my math is pretty foggy.
V = sqrt(P * Zhp)
Vload1 = sqrt(1W * 16Ω) = 4V
Vload2 = sqrt(0.08W * 600Ω) = 6.928V
Zout = (Zhp * (Vnoload - Vload)) / Vload
Zout = (16Ω * (Vnoload - 4V)) / 4V
Zout = (600Ω * (Vnoload - 6.928V) / 6.928V
Vnoload = (Zout * 4V / 16Ω) + 4V
Vnoload = (Zout * 6.928V / 600Ω) + 6.928V
(Zout * 6.928V / 600Ω) + 6.928V = (Zout * 4V / 16Ω) + 4V
(Zout * 6.928V / 600Ω) + 2.928V = Zout * 4V / 16Ω
(Zout * 4V / 16Ω) - (Zout * 6.928V / 600Ω) = 2.928V
(Zout * (4 / 16 * 600) / 600) - (Zout * 6.928 / 600) = 2.928
(Zout * 150 / 600) - (Zout * 6.928 / 600) = 2.928
(Zout * 150) - (Zout * 6.928) = 2.928 * 600 = 1756.8
Zout = 1756.8 / (150 - 6.928) = 12.279Ω
I checked and that value is a match with the Vnoload and Zout formulas above:
Vnoload = (12.279Ω * 4V / 16Ω) + 4V = 7.069750V
Vnoload = (12.279Ω * 6.928V / 600Ω) + 6.928V = 7.069781V
Zout = (16Ω * (7.069750 - 4V) / 4V = 12.279Ω
Zout = (600Ω * (7.069781 - 6.928V) / 6.928V = 12.278954Ω
Can I ask You how did You get 1W, 0.08W, 16Ω and 600Ω values? I ask because these measurements have an error range that can have siginificant influence on final result and its calculation steps.
The manual (http://www.fiio.com.cn/UploadFiles/main/Images/2012/12/20121210142252.pdf) for the E09K gives 900 mW into 32Ω and 150 mW into 300Ω, which computes into an output impedance of 9.231Ω, which happens to be within the rated < 10Ω.
I guess the short answer is that I will find out how they sound when I get them and pair them up with the Fiio's...
Again, the Ie80's and Amperiors that I already have sound fantastic via the E17 on its own, but when I dock the E17 into the E09K and go via my iMac - not so good, sounds flat in comparison. Hence why I'm trying to ascertain if the HD800's will be any better.
I guess the short answer is that I will find out how they sound when I get them and pair them up with the Fiio's...
Again, the Ie80's and Amperiors that I already have sound fantastic via the E17 on its own, but when I dock the E17 into the E09K and go via my iMac - not so good, sounds flat in comparison. Hence why I'm trying to ascertain if the HD800's will be any better.
Well, you won't get the same amount of bass on the hd800, regardless of your source.
Everything sounds flat, not just the bass.
Probably because E17 has enabled gain at +6dB that makes the sound alive, punchier and when E17 is used with E09K the gain isn't enabled. Try to disable gain on E17 and see if it sound comparables to E17+E09K.
As for me, I'm not impressed with E17 driving HD 650 and HD 800. It's ok but not as clean enough as my EMU Pre Tracker in my experience. Nobody knows how E17 decodes the 44.1 kHz input because it shows the same 48 kHz sampling rate for both 44.1 and 48 kHz files. Does it use some resampler internally? If so, how good is it? It doesn't support 24bits decoding for CD material (44.1 kHz). As it was so hard to do, but it does support 96 kHz, 24 bits. The default +6dB gain that misleads people.
And many other little or not so little flaws those destroy a listening experience. Disappointments. It's not a truly professional device, sorry Fiio, it's not.
That's why a next amp+dac I want to try is 02/ODAC.
Have been experimenting earlier this evening as I got my optical link cable. So I docked the E17 into the E09K then plugged the cable into the E17 and connected to the iMac...sounds a lot better with my Amperiors and comparable to the E17, if not actually better. You're right on the 6db gain setting on the E17 btw, it's what I keep it at as well.
The Eq settings still seem enabled with the E17 docked too.
Sorry if what I said was confusing.
I meant: you won't get the same amount of bass with hd800, compared to ie80 & amperior.
I've actually have the senn ie7 (which is more or less similar to the ie80),
and the hd25 II 1 (which is similar to amperior).
It's not exactly the same satisfaction to listen bass heavy techno on the senn ie7, and with the hd800.
And the hd25 II 1 is not as good as the senn ie7 (at least for my taste) but basically offers some mid bass emphasis.
I know people that have listened the hd800, and quickly made the conclusion it was not for them.
I have listened to it extensively before deciding, my only concern is driving them properly.
I have listened to it extensively before deciding, my only concern is driving them properly.
Well, ok, I'd be interested by your results.
Otherwise, I've seen people thinking that the hd800 sounds even great from an ipod,
but I think it's a not a so good idea.
Personally between my cowon player & my xonar stx, I prefer to plug my hd800 on the latter.
My last post about E17 driving HD 800 was quite negative. It's different with HD 650. One can say that they sound softer, warmer, forgiving. After some sessions I'm quite pleasant with E17 driving HD 650.
One possible explanation can be that HD 800 aren't quite neutral comparing to flat reference HD 650. HD 800 vs HD 650 (http://www.headphone.com/buildAGraph.php?graphID%5b0%5d=853&graphID%5b1%5d=863&graphID%5b2%5d=&graphID%5b3%5d=&graphType=0&buttonSelection=Compare+Headphones).
And E17 has more distortion in high frequencies (http://www.fiio.com.cn/UploadFiles/main/Images/2012/12/20121204094036.jpg) where HD800 occasionally has a bump, causing unmasking/amplification of distortion. Sometimes I hate HD800 for its peak in that frequency range as my ears get tired after some time because of it.
It's a $1500 headphone, presumably there is a reason it costs this much.
Nope.
Wow! join a forum and post one nearly valueless, placebo driven drivel and follow up with an insult instead of considering any of the TOS service you agreed to when joining.
I think the Auditor is a great amp however and a bang for your buck winner.
Its really overkill for those headphones. The sensitivity is high enough that you probably never use more than a small fraction of the amp's voltage range, so its kind of wasted.
It's a $1500 headphone, presumably there is a reason it costs this much.
Nope.
It is hard to escape that conclusion.
I think that what manufacturers such as Sennhesier are doing with ultra-high priced headphones is simple crass profiteering on a illogical aberration in the marketplace.
It's a $1500 headphone, presumably there is a reason it costs this much.
Nope.
It is hard to escape that conclusion.
I think that what manufacturers such as Sennhesier are doing with ultra-high priced headphones is simple crass profiteering on a illogical aberration in the marketplace.
I can't argue your idea that these are expensive, nor can I convince anyone of their worth. Those are personal decisions that you and others will wrestle with...
I think the Auditor is a great amp however and a bang for your buck winner.
Its really overkill for those headphones. The sensitivity is high enough that you probably never use more than a small fraction of the amp's voltage range, so its kind of wasted.
I am not an SPL engineer. In other words, it's not possible for me to respond to your comment with same technical assurance that you possess.
theancient, please back up your claims with valid data proving that they were worth bumping this thread after 3.5 months, or stop posting unverifiable impressions and FUD about the price-tag, as well as insinuating that others’ disagreement is due to reduced mental capacity on their part. Articles 8 and 2 of the Terms of Service, to which you agreed during your registration, are pertinent here.
Sometimes, an item's worth is what the client is willing to pay for it. I'm sure Sennheiser's marketing department came up with that ridiculously high price because they thought it was the sweet spot of what their niche target customer base would be willing to pay. Note that they have every price point covered with a gazillion models ranging from, what, 20 bucks? all the way to $1,500.
Sometimes, an item's worth is what the client is willing to pay for it. I'm sure Sennheiser's marketing department came up with that ridiculously high price because they thought it was the sweet spot of what their niche target customer base would be willing to pay. Note that they have every price point covered with a gazillion models ranging from, what, 20 bucks? all the way to $1,500.
Well the hd800 is the only headphone that comes currently with a ring driver.
It's also using a metal mesh for the opening.
So regarding the conception only, it's not the same as "gazillion" of other models.
Off course , the question is how much some "the ring driver", or the "metal mesh" impacts sound quality.
I'm convinced that the hd800 are (very) overpriced.
But they are good , and someone that like their sound signature , would be easily indulgent regarding the price too.
theancient, please back up your claims with valid data proving that they were worth bumping this thread after 3.5 months, or stop posting unverifiable impressions and FUD about the price-tag, as well as insinuating that others’ disagreement is due to reduced mental capacity on their part. Articles 8 and 2 of the Terms of Service, to which you agreed during your registration, are pertinent here.
I got here through Google because I was looking for other impressions of the HD800 with the Auditor, if this is problematic for you maybe you should write Google and ask that they not direct people to your website.
I got here through Google because I was looking for other impressions of the HD800 with the Auditor, if this is problematic for you maybe you should write Google and ask that they not direct people to your website.
You were presented the rules when you registered; you agreed to them. If you can't follow them then don't post. It's that plainly simple.
Google didn't tell you to post here and if they did you weren't obliged to comply. You are obliged to comply with our terms, however.
PS: Your offending posts were moved to the recycle bin (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=41) and titled per the rules that were broken.
I got here through Google because I was looking for other impressions of the HD800 with the Auditor, if this is problematic for you maybe you should write Google and ask that they not direct people to your website.
PS: Your offending posts were moved to the recycle bin (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=41) and titled per the rules that were broken.
You're very wise to do that, bravo.
Yes, and we can leave it at that. Now we need to pay attention to TOS #5.
Just a short update, I've been using the HD800's with the E17 / E09K combo for a few months, however I attended a meet recently and spent some time with various amps / combos inc the HDVD800 which made the HD800's really shine. The difference was very noticeable. Also tried a Burson Amp which was a close second.
Thanks, for the feedback. But I'm sure people here would refuse to rationalize the cost of a 2000$ solid state amp.
The usual counter arguments, is that you've been victim of placebo (only blind test allows to defeat this argument)
or that there's some coloration from the source (then we'd need some measurements to invalidate or confirm that hypothesis).
But I'm sure people here would refuse to rationalize the cost of a 2000$ solid state amp.
Cost has nothing to do with it. We aren't interested in subjective impressions based on sighted evaluation of audio gear regardless of the price. Saying amp XYZ makes the HD800 shine is a TOS #8 violation because of the meaningless subjective language and because it wasn't supported by results from a double-blind test.
As such you will have to read that post from the Recycle Bin (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=41) with the other nonsense posts that made it there from this discussion (as well as others).