Skip to main content

Notice

Please note that most of the software linked on this forum is likely to be safe to use. If you are unsure, feel free to ask in the relevant topics, or send a private message to an administrator or moderator. To help curb the problems of false positives, or in the event that you do find actual malware, you can contribute through the article linked here.
Topic: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti (Read 22954 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti

Reply #25
the fact (yes, fact) that zeppelin rocks your world doesn't enter into this comparison of (re)masters...


later

Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti

Reply #26
When I get home tonight I'll measure some peak and RMS levels for a variety of Crop Cricle and 10CD box tracks (unless someone else posts the data before then).
I generated data for Discs 1 and 2 of the Crop Circle Box using Audition already.
Thanks to Greynol for his figures.

I think krabapple was specifically interested in seeing the peak and RMS figures of the crop circle and 10CD box side-by-side. Since this thread is principally about Physical Graffiti, I pulled out those tracks for comparison:
Code: [Select]
                      Crop Circles Remasters        10CD Box Set
                      Peak L/R    RMS L/R          Peak L/R    RMS L/R        RMS Diff L/R
Custard Pie          -0.0/-0.0    -18.6/-18.4      -0.0/-0.0    -16.0/-15.7    2.6/2.7
The Rover            -0.0/-0.0    -14.3/-14.7      -0.1/-0.1    -14.4/-14.9    -0.1/-0.2
In My Time Of Dying  -0.0/-0.0    -17.4/-17.6      -0.0/-0.0    -15.9/-16.1    1.5/1.5
Houses Of The Holy    -0.0/-0.0    -17.1/-16.7      -0.0/-0.0    -14.9/-14.4    2.2/2.4
Trampled Under Foot  -0.0/-0.0    -15.5/-15.8      -0.0/-0.0    -14.4/-14.7    1.1/1.1
Kashmir              -0.0/-0.0    -16.2/-16.1      -0.0/-0.0    -15.7/-15.6    0.5/0.5
In The Light          -0.0/-0.0    -19.2/-19.2      -0.0/-0.0    -18.7/-18.7    0.5/0.5
Bron-Y-Aur            -4.0/-3.1    -20.8/-21.9      -4.4/-3.9    -21.2/-22.3    -0.4/-0.4
Down By The Seaside  -0.0/-0.0    -15.7/-15.8      -0.0/-0.0    -16.1/-16.3    -0.4/-0.5
Ten Years Gone        -0.0/-0.0    -18.3/-18.5      -0.0/-0.0    -17.5/-17.7    0.8/0.8
Night Flight          -0.0/-0.0    -15.8/-15.5      -0.0/-0.0    -15.2/-15.1    0.6/0.4
The Wanton Song      -0.0/-0.0    -17.0/-17.0      -0.0/-0.0    -15.5/-15.5    1.5/1.5
Boogie With Stu      -1.0/-0.7    -16.8/-16.8      -0.2/-0.0    -16.1/-16.0    0.7/0.8
Black Country Woman  -0.0/-0.0    -20.4/-19.4      -0.0/-0.0    -20.4/-19.3    0.0/0.1
Sick Again            -0.0/-0.0    -14.8/-15.3      -0.0/-0.0    -14.5/-15.0    0.3/0.3
Note that the RMS values shown here are what Audition would describe as "total RMS", rather than the "average RMS" posted by Greynol. I didn't do it differently like this to be awkward - I just happened to use a program that measures RMS that way.

As you can see, the difference is generally pretty small, but in most cases the Crop Circles set has slightly greater dynamic range than the 10CD set. Only two tracks (Custard Pie and Houses of the Holy) have RMS differences greater than 2dB. I'll remind people at this point that I was unable to distinguish the two sets in an ABX test.

Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti

Reply #27
I still have all the data generated by Audition, so I can provide whatever you guys like.  No point in duplicating work.

Discs 3 and 4 are done (with ave RMS still)...
Code: [Select]
Achilles Last Stand
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -17.38 dB -16.83 dB

Dancing Days
Peak Amplitude: -.17 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -17.15 dB -16.73 dB

For Your Life
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.07 dB -18.5 dB

In My Time of Dying
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.6 dB -18.68 dB

Kashmir
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -17.05 dB -16.95 dB

No Quarter
Peak Amplitude: -1.99 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -23.89 dB -23.42 dB

Ten Years Gone
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB -.03 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.85 dB -20.2 dB

The Song Remains the Same
Peak Amplitude: -1.21 dB -1.5 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.38 dB -18.28 dB

Trampled Under Foot
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.08 dB -16.47 dB

When the Levee Breaks
Peak Amplitude: -.66 dB -.76 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.6 dB -16.38 dB

Code: [Select]
All My Love
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.93 dB -20.33 dB

Candy Store Rock
Peak Amplitude: -.04 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.76 dB -19.19 dB

Fool in the Rain
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.42 dB -18.35 dB

Houses of the Holy
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -17.85 dB -17.53 dB

I'm Gonna Crawl
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.76 dB -19.46 dB

In the Evening
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.36 dB -18.2 dB

In the Light
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.86 dB -21.04 dB

Moby Dick-Bonzo's Montreux
Peak Amplitude: -.04 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -17.94 dB -17.71 dB

Nobody's Fault But Mine
Peak Amplitude: -.04 dB -.54 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.52 dB -19.44 dB

Ozone Baby
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -15.71 dB -15.7 dB

Poor Tom
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.26 dB -17.81 dB

The Ocean
Peak Amplitude: -1.33 dB -.72 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.42 dB -19.09 dB

The Wanton Song
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB -.02 dB
Average RMS Power: -17.81 dB -17.72 dB

Wearing and Tearing
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -15.8 dB -16.08 dB

Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti

Reply #28
Since more people tend to report Avg than Total RMS , here are Audition's average RMS/Peak figures for the 10CD box tracks analogous to the tracks Greynol posted (using default Audition 1.0 settings --e.g.,  DC accounted for, FS Square wave, 50 ms window).  Clive, how do you get 'CODE" to print columns so neatly?

(NB these data are reformatted a few psots below this one, with difference data added)


Code: [Select]
    
                 AvgL      AvgR    PeakL PeakR
Babe           -17.85    -18.57    -.02  -.65
Celebration    -15.78    -16.17    0     0
Communication  -14.06    -14.57    0     0
Dazed          -15.88    -15.52    0     0
Friends        -19.06    -18.92    -.58  0
Heartbreaker   -15.57    -15.38    0     0
Hey Hey        -16.35    -16.18    0     0
I Can't Quit   -16.56    -17.48    0     0
Ramble On      -19.15    -18.20    0     0
Thank You      -23.30    -22.33    0     0
Travelling     -17.99    -17.99    -1.87 -1.87
What Is        -20.74    -20.39    -.67  0
White Summer   -23.87    -23.87    0     0
Whole Lotta    -18.75    -18.71    0     0
Your Time      -17.31    -17.50   -1.7   -2.16


Black Dog      -15.99    -16.75    0     0
Bron Stomp     -18.81    -18.84    0     0
Custard        -17.34    -16.89    0     0
D'yer Mak'r    -18.38    -17.91    0     0
Gallows        -17.83    -18.61    0     0
Going          -22.12    -22.27    -5.87 -4.05
Immigrant      -15.61    -16.06    0     0
Misty          -13.99    -14.16    0     0
Over           -21.08    -20.53    0     0
Rock and Roll  -14.38    -14.56    0     0
Since I've     -17.34    -17.71    0     0
Stairway       -20.16    -19.78    -.09  0
Tangerine      -19.62    -19.62    0     0
Evermore       -20.67    -19.08    -3.81 -2.08
Rain Song      -18.64    -18.15    0     0

Achilles Last  -15.78    -15.17    0     0
Dancing Days   -16.03    -15.62    0     0
For Your Life  -16.91    -16.88    0     0
In My Time     -17.12    -17.19    0     0
Kashmir        -16.45    -16.40    0     0
No Quarter     -21.22    -20.91    0     0
Ten Years Gone -18.98    -19.32    0     0
Song Remains   -15.87    -15.12    0     0
Trampled       -15.02    -15.35    0     0
When the Levee -14.92    -14.70    0     0
                

All My Love    -18.26    -18.69    0     0
Candy Store    -16.33    -17.21    0     0
Fool in the    -16.95    -16.88    0     0
Houses of the  -15.53    -15.20    0     0
I'm Gonna      -18.07    -17.79    0     0
In the Evening -16.91    -16.75    0     0
In the Light   -20.33    -20.51    0     0
Bonzo's Montr  -16.93    -17.26    -.22  -.56
Nobody's Fault -16.39    -16.26    0     0
Ozone Baby     -14.48    -14.46    0     0
Poor Tom       -17.83    -17.37    0     0
The Ocean      -17.10    -16.79    0     0
The Wanton     -16.26    -16.39    0     0
Wearing and    -15.14    -15.40    0     0

Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti

Reply #29
Btw, when I tote up all the differences so far between Avg RMS levels of 10 CD vs crop circles CD boxes, I get an average difference of +1.3 dB for left channel, +1.2 dB for right (10 CD set being higher).  Only two of the tracks show a +3 dB difference of Avg RMS (Nobody's Fault and Song Remains the Same) and of these the greatest diff is +3.5 dB in one channel.  Minimum increase is 'Friends' , +0.1 dB in both channels

A few tracks (e.g Going to California) have actually been reduced in  level in the 10CD box versus the crop circles.

NB that when peak levels are 0 dB, the RMS avg is a direct indicator of dynamic range. 

I note too from viewing the waveforms that the incidences of clipping vary widely from track to track.  Some show several hundred instances, where clipping is defined as 4 or more consecutive samples at 0 dB -- clive's WaveRepair software is terrific for analysing this* -- while some show none, despite also being 'loud'.  I have never seen a definitive analysis of how many consecutive clipped samples are audible, but I have seen reports that range from 3 to more than 13 being required.  Regardless, for this remastering project I suspect each track was treated on a case by case basis.  It's also seems that tracks from later albums, on the whole, were given more 'jet assist' (hard limiting) than earlier ones, though I haven't nailed this down.


*it's brilliant, actually..in addition to showing clipping at any defined cutoff of # of consecutive samples at 0 dBFS ('clip width'), it can display a histogram showing the distribution of clipping instances at *all* widths from 1 sample to 24+, and also indicates where in the wav file these occur.  Using this I see that one of the worst 'offenders', 'Custard Pie' has 248 instances where clip width = 4 or more, including 10 instances of clipping that are at least 24 samples wide.

Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti

Reply #30
I have never seen a definitive analysis of how many consecutive clipped samples are audible, but I have seen reports that range from 3 to more than 13 being required.

Wouldn't the number of cycles that contained clipped samples also be important?

Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti

Reply #31
Yes, that is the other dimension -- many time-proximate instances of 'narrow' clipping (a few samples wide but close together), conceivably could be audible, as could few cycles containing 'wide' clipping.

I would like to emphasize, though, that by today's mastering standars, the 10-CD Zep remasters are really quite conservative in their employment of compression and limiting.

Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti

Reply #32
Clive, how do you get 'CODE" to print columns so neatly?

I prepare the text neatly in Notepad, being careful to use real spaces rather than tab characters, then put it inside a "codebox" section.

Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti

Reply #33
Clive, how do you get 'CODE" to print columns so neatly?

I prepare the text neatly in Notepad, being careful to use real spaces rather than tab characters, then put it inside a "codebox" section.



Darn, I'd hoped it would be easier.  Here's the data in a different form, grouped by album, with difference calculations as well (e.g. dAvgl = difference between crop circle left channel RMS Avg and 10 CD set version).  Pr = peak (right channel) etc.


Led Zeppelin tracks from 10CD boxed set
Code: [Select]
              Avgl       Avgr      Pl    Pr     dAvgl    dAvgr    dPl    dPr

Babe I’m      -17.85     -18.57   -0.02 -0.65   1.17    -0.27     1.2    0.05
Communication -14.06     -14.57    0     0      1.66     0.57     0.45   0.74
Dazed and     -15.88     -15.52    0     0      0.5      1.19     0.03   0
Your Time Is  -17.31     -17.5    -1.7  -2.16   1.26     0.81    -0.47  -1.05
I Can't Quit  -16.56     -17.48    0     0      2.04     2.02     0      0.01

Whole Lotta   -18.75     -18.71    0     0      0.58     0.58     0      0
Heartbreaker  -15.57     -15.38    0     0      1.39     1.36     0.01   0.51
Ramble On     -19.15     -18.2     0     0      1.16     1.15     0.05   0
Thank You     -23.3      -22.33    0     0      0.97     0.9      0.91   1.46
What Is And   -20.74     -20.39   -0.67  0      0.62     0.61     0.53   0.55

Immigrant     -15.61     -16.06    0     0      0.73     0.7      0      0
Friends       -19.06     -18.92   -0.58  0      0.1      0.1      0.19   0
Celebration   -15.78     -16.17    0     0      0.52     0.48     0      0
Since I've    -17.34     -17.71    0     0      1.48     1.48     0      0
Gallows Poll  -17.83     -18.61    0     0      2.28     2.2      0      0
Tangerine     -19.62     -19.62    0     0      0.83     0.85     0      0
Bron Y Stomp  -18.81     -18.84    0     0      1.41     1.24     0.5    0

Black Dog     -15.99     -16.75    0     0      1.41     1.4      0      0
Rock and Roll -14.38     -14.56    0     0      1.9      1.99     0.78   0
Battle of     -20.67     -19.08   -3.81 -2.08   0.43     0.58     0.31   0.32
Stairway  to  -20.16     -19.78   -0.09  0      1.29     1.29     1.02   0.14
Going to Cali -22.12     -22.27   -5.87 -4.05  -0.9     -0.91    -0.97  -0.91
Misty Mount   -13.99     -14.16    0     0      2.31     2.34     0.92   1.5
When the Lev  -14.92     -14.7     0     0      1.68     1.68     0.66   0.76

Song Remains  -15.87     -15.12    0     0      3.51     3.16     1.21   1.5
D'yer Mak'r   -18.38     -17.91    0     0      1.84     1.51     0.04   0
No Quarter    -21.22     -20.91    0     0      2.67     2.51     1.99   0
Dancing Days  -16.03     -15.62    0     0      1.12     1.11     0.17   0
Over the Hill -21.08     -20.53    0     0      0.57     0.49     0      0
Rain Song     -18.64     -18.15    0     0      1.08     1.07     0      0.15
The Ocean     -17.1      -16.79    0     0      2.32     2.3      1.33   0.72

Custard Pie   -17.34     -16.89    0     0      2.72     2.77     0      0
Houses of the -15.53     -15.2     0     0      2.32     2.33     0      0
In the Light  -20.33     -20.51    0     0      0.53     0.53     0      0
In My Time of -17.12     -17.19    0     0      1.48     1.49     0      0
Trampled      -15.02     -15.35    0     0      1.06     1.12     0      0
Ten Years     -18.98     -19.32    0     0      0.87     0.88     0      0.03
Kashmir       -16.45     -16.4     0     0      0.6      0.55     0      0
The Wanton    -16.26     -16.39    0     0      1.55     1.33     0      0.02

Achilles Last -15.78     -15.17    0     0      1.6      1.66     0      0
For Your Life -16.91     -16.88    0     0      2.16     1.62     0      0
Nobodys Fault -16.39     -16.26    0     0      3.13     3.18     0.04   0.54
Candy Store   -16.33     -17.21    0     0      2.43     1.98     0.04   0

In the Even   -16.91     -16.75    0     0      1.45     1.45     0      0
All My Love   -18.26     -18.69    0     0      1.67     1.64     0      0
Fool in the   -16.95     -16.88    0     0      1.47     1.47     0      0
I'm Gonna     -18.07     -17.79    0     0      1.69     1.67     0      0

Bonzo's       -16.93     -17.26   -0.22 -0.56   1.01     0.45    -0.18  -0.56
Ozone Baby    -14.48     -14.46    0     0      1.23     1.24     0      0
Poor Tom      -17.83     -17.37    0     0      0.43     0.44     0      0
Wearing and   -15.14     -15.4     0     0       0.66    0.68     0      0
Hey Hey What  -16.35     -16.18    0     0      2.47     2.49     0      0
Travelling    -17.99     -17.99   -1.87 -1.87  -1.03    -1.03    -0.98  -0.98
White Summer  -23.87     -23.87    0     0     -0.07    -0.07     0      0

Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti

Reply #34
We talked about this album last week (along woth many other 70s classics), after the pub, sitting around drinking. What was the best song? what a great guitar sound! I love the way his voice goes up there, and that is really inspiring harmony, that sounds so emotional, etc, etc.

But not once did we talk about the audiophile quality!

I gave a copy of a rare track to my friend. From a crappy tape recording of a scratched  recorded to PC, MP3, lossless, good knows if it was recrded as JS, dual or whatever, and you know what? he was blown away. He hadnt heard it for 20 years amd couldn't believe how great the band were. Now, I would have liked a better quality recording myself, but I'll not cry over it.

Actually, I do remember something about the recording - it was mono, but the music was alive, the way the drummer played lifted the music and brought in new dimensions.

I have One Day I'll Fly Away on Moulin Rouge (proper CD, modern recording) and a scratched, low-fi version by  Randy Crawford. The former is flat, the latter tugs at the heart strings. Why? because Randy Crawford can really sing, the arrangement is subtle, yet powerful, the backing strings compliment her voice, she biursts into the powerful emotions without having to strain her voice. The timing cannot be defined. It is a truly emotional experience.

The other woman is average, the arrangement has no spirit, it was dashed off.

Now, on this forum, people would say the reverse. The Randy Crawford recording is not great, it is audiophilically flat, but emiotanally, it is upifting.


"So back in the late 80's I bought Led Zeppelin's Physical Graffiti CD and boy was I ever dissapointed."

Physical Graffiti is a great album. Don't be disappointed. Sit back, turn up the volume and sink into the music.

Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti

Reply #35
"So back in the late 80's I bought Led Zeppelin's Physical Graffiti CD and boy was I ever dissapointed."

Physical Graffiti is a great album. Don't be disappointed. Sit back, turn up the volume and sink into the music.

I don't think that this is really the point of this discussion at all. The point is trying to determine the best version that you can get. I love Physical Graffiti. A little bit of clipping will never change that, but if someone came to me and said "Here's a perfect version, do you wanna swap?" I'd say yes please

It's still just about my favourite album though.

Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti

Reply #36
Physical Graffiti is a great album. Don't be disappointed. Sit back, turn up the volume and sink into the music.



 

The OP already had heard and loved the album as an LP -- but the *CD* didn't please him *because it didn't sound right to him*.  Not because he doesn't love the music. So he's inquiring about different CD versions that are available.  Not whether PG is a good album.