HydrogenAudio

Music Discussion => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: Kurt S on 2006-04-07 23:58:14

Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: Kurt S on 2006-04-07 23:58:14
So back in the late 80's I bought Led Zeppelin's Physical Graffiti CD and boy was I ever dissapointed. The fidelity was horrible. It sounded like someone ran it through an EQ and made the sliders look like a bell curve. No low end to speak of and the highs weren't any better. I A/B'ed it against the LP I had and the difference was night and day. The LP was crisp and clear with good bass. Well I've gotten back into this album but even after running it through some EQ I'm still not happy with the results.

My question is, has anyone purchased this album recently and if so, what is your opinion of the quality.

PS. I know the first thing I'm going to hear is if I have A/B'ed it recently. I have not. I don't have a turntable anymore but if anyone questions what I'm hearing, I would be glad to post a small sample for you to listen to.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: kennedyb4 on 2006-04-08 00:23:32
So back in the late 80's I bought Led Zeppelin's Physical Graffiti CD and boy was I ever dissapointed. The fidelity was horrible. It sounded like someone ran it through an EQ and made the sliders look like a bell curve. No low end to speak of and the highs weren't any better. I A/B'ed it against the LP I had and the difference was night and day. The LP was crisp and clear with good bass. Well I've gotten back into this album but even after running it through some EQ I'm still not happy with the results.

My question is, has anyone purchased this album recently and if so, what is your opinion of the quality.

PS. I know the first thing I'm going to hear is if I have A/B'ed it recently. I have not. I don't have a turntable anymore but if anyone questions what I'm hearing, I would be glad to post a small sample for you to listen to.



Hi. I have an APS 3.90 copy from their box set collection. It is plagued by analog hiss, worse than their other discs IMO.

Overall though, I do not have the same perceptions you are having. The overall presence is good and the bass is adequate. Cymbals and guitars are definitely forward in the soundfield but not enough to account for the eq curve you describe. I would rate it overall as 7.0 of 10 for quality in general.

I did not listen to all the songs. Two from each disc were auditioned.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: audioflex on 2006-04-08 07:30:44
i have this CD....sounds just fine.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: aLii on 2006-04-08 18:07:20
I have the remastered CD - dunno when exactly it was remastered, but I've had it since about 1998 or so. The sound quality is generally good, but there is a fair amount of clipping present - I'm interested to hear whether clipping is present on the vinyl?
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: Axon on 2006-04-08 18:21:52
I have the box set and the original pressing vinyl, so I might be able to give a comparison a whirl. I didn't think the '95 remasters were that bad compared to the wax.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: Kurt S on 2006-04-09 21:38:39
Ok, it looks like the newer versons are mastered better. I'll go get a new copy. Thanks for your responses.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: krabapple on 2006-04-10 05:50:01
This was never anything near an 'audiophile quality' recording in the first place.  But here's what the original CD  version of 'The Rover' (top) looks like compared to the George Marino/Jimmy Page remaster, from the 10-CD Complete boxed set (bottom).  The latter sounds better to me, though it's clearly been dynamically compressed (comparison to a normalized version of the older CD track, not shown, bears this out).  There is a little clipping but not as much as it looks like from this low-rez image; when you magnify the waveform there turns out to be few true 'flat tops' and they are short -- just a few samples long --  where they do occur.


(http://www.m-ideas.com/sullivan/LZ/rover3.png)
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: chelrob on 2006-04-10 07:43:16
The album was remastered again 1994, it sounds even better then the box set remaster.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: Triza on 2006-04-10 15:33:34
The album was remastered again 1994, it sounds even better then the box set remaster.


Wrong.

I remember I looked at this since I had almost all the studio album of the 1994 remasters. They have indentical replaygain numbers with the boxset, which I also own. I did not do bit comparison, because it was obvious that they must be extremely similar.

BTW I had very 1st CD release of the Physical Graffiti by Swan Song, and indeed it did sound pretty bad. I have not listened to the box-set one, but indeed I can confirm Kurt's observation.

Triza
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: My name is Mud on 2006-04-10 20:18:38
I've got the same version as krabapple, and it sounds just fine to me (and rather better than my original vinyl release).
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: cliveb on 2006-04-11 11:32:36

The album was remastered again 1994, it sounds even better then the box set remaster.

I remember I looked at this since I had almost all the studio album of the 1994 remasters. They have indentical replaygain numbers with the boxset, which I also own. I did not do bit comparison, because it was obvious that they must be extremely similar.

The whole Zeppelin remastering saga is very confusing. I've heard it on good authority that the currently available remastered individual albums are identical to the 10CD box set. I only own the 10CD box set and the previous "Remasters" sets (one 4CD, one 2CD). I had always felt that the earlier "Remasters" sets sounded better, and assumed that the later 10CD set had been subjected to some additional compression.

Then I did some more investigation, and discovered that:
a) the channels are swapped between the two sets on some tracks (!)
b) the levels are very slightly lower on the earlier "Remasters"
c) after re-normalising both, they are NOT bit-identical
d) the two sets contain identical digital transfer glitches

From this evidence, I conclude that the two sets of remasters are derived from the same initial digital transfer (presumably the one done by Page & Marino), but that the later 10CD set has been further "tweaked" in some unknown way. Despite this, after channel correction and level-matching, I failed to distinguish them in an ABX. I conclude that my previous belief that the earlier set sounded better was due to the very slight level differences.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: Triza on 2006-04-11 15:31:36
cliveb, this is very informative post. Thank you. I am very grateful that you took the trouble.

I pondered a lot if I should buy the earlier sets. After this post I will probably not.

You say that the earier releases have slightly lower level. How much lower approximately? Less than a 1dB?

Triza
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: UObean on 2006-04-11 15:55:35
Personally I like the older non-remastered versions better.  The treble just sounds unnatural on the remasters.  The original cd's while quieter, sound more dynamic to me.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: cliveb on 2006-04-11 16:33:21
You say that the earier releases have slightly lower level. How much lower approximately? Less than a 1dB?

Yes, less than 1dB. There's more details of what I did included as part of this earlier thread (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=40205&hl=).

But to briefly summarise, I concentrated mainly on the track "Good Times Bad Times":
Remasters: replaygain = -5.67; peak(L/R) = -0.4/-0.5
10CD set: replygain = -6.18; peak(L/R) = 0/0
After normalising the remasters to peak at 0/0, the RMS levels were close but subtly different: -14.6/-14.2 for Remasters and -14.1/-14.4 for the 10CD set.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: krabapple on 2006-04-13 06:20:59
The album was remastered again 1994, it sounds even better then the box set remaster.


The only remasterings I've been able to verify are

first CD --> revised first CD  (this fixed the missing 'cough' at the end of 'In My Time of Dying' but AFAIK no other changes were made)

revised first CD --> two 'crop circle' boxed sets

'crop circle' boxed sets --> 10 CD set  (this information surprised me, but Clive has the data to back it up)

The individual CDs that came out after the 10-box are simply clones of the 10-box albums.  So was a 'mini LP sleeve' version from Europe that I checked. I know of no 1994 remastering.

The more recent compilations that came out a year or two ago, I can't speak to; I would not be surprised if
they had been 'modernized' still more.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: randal1013 on 2006-04-13 16:51:59
i have this CD....sounds just fine.

same here.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: TomGroove on 2006-04-15 11:12:39
just listening again to my 10 Box set, don't think, that there is heavy remastering versus the vinyl version.
It is not the best sound ever heard, but still pretty good music.

Just listen to earlier Bruce Springsteen, if you want worse recording :-)
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: krabapple on 2006-11-20 19:36:14
You say that the earier releases have slightly lower level. How much lower approximately? Less than a 1dB?

Yes, less than 1dB. There's more details of what I did included as part of this earlier thread (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=40205&hl=).

But to briefly summarise, I concentrated mainly on the track "Good Times Bad Times":
Remasters: replaygain = -5.67; peak(L/R) = -0.4/-0.5
10CD set: replygain = -6.18; peak(L/R) = 0/0
After normalising the remasters to peak at 0/0, the RMS levels were close but subtly different: -14.6/-14.2 for Remasters and -14.1/-14.4 for the 10CD set.



Clive,
resurrencting this thread becuase I see over on Hoffman's forum that someone is claiming an average 3dB difference between the crop circles versions and the 10 CD box versions of LZ tracks.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost...mp;postcount=47 (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=2147799&postcount=47)

wondering if you can verify, since your measured differences were much less than that.  Did you check many of the other tracks on the box?
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: greynol on 2006-11-21 00:56:29
Here are some numbers for you.  Sorry that I don't have Box Set #2.

Code: [Select]
1990     1993
Box      CSR      Track                  Diff.
-4.12    -7.31    Custard Pie            3.19
-4.62    -7.14    Houses of the Holy     2.52
-4.88    -6.37    In My Time of Dying    1.49
-4.40    -4.93    In the Light           0.53
-5.35    -5.86    Kashmir                0.51
-4.07    -4.68    Ten Years Gone         0.61
-4.29    -6.07    The Wanton Song        1.78
-5.78    -7.33    Trampled Under Foot    1.55
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: krabapple on 2006-11-21 03:46:30
Not sure the guy on SH.tv is talking about replaygain value differences, though I'm grateful to have that data.  Can you post RMS avg and peak values for the crop circle tracks?  I can generate them for the 10-CDbox versions.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: chelrob on 2006-11-21 04:39:39
. Never mind
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: Lysander on 2006-11-21 07:32:52
How about the best of discs? What was done to them?
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: cliveb on 2006-11-21 09:32:01
Not sure the guy on SH.tv is talking about replaygain value differences, though I'm grateful to have that data.  Can you post RMS avg and peak values for the crop circle tracks?  I can generate them for the 10-CDbox versions.

Sorry, only just seen this resurrected thread. Greynol's figures seem to show that there are much bigger differences on some tracks than I had measured for "Good Times Bad Times". I don't remember why I chose that particular track - it was probably just convenient. When I get home tonight I'll measure some peak and RMS levels for a variety of Crop Cricle and 10CD box tracks (unless someone else posts the data before then).
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: greynol on 2006-11-21 09:54:33
When I get home tonight I'll measure some peak and RMS levels for a variety of Crop Cricle and 10CD box tracks (unless someone else posts the data before then).
I generated data for Discs 1 and 2 of the Crop Circle Box using Audition already.
Code: [Select]
Babe I'm Gonna Leave You
Peak Amplitude: -1.22 dB -.7 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.02 dB -18.3 dB

Celebration Day
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.3 dB -16.65 dB

Communication Breakdown
Peak Amplitude: -.45 dB -.74 dB
Average RMS Power: -15.72 dB -15.14 dB

Dazed And Confused
Peak Amplitude: -.03 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.38 dB -16.71 dB

Friends
Peak Amplitude: -.77 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.16 dB -19.02 dB

Heartbreaker
Peak Amplitude: -.01 dB -.51 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.96 dB -16.74 dB

Hey Hey What Can I Do
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.82 dB -18.67 dB

I Can't Quit You Baby
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB -.01 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.6 dB -19.5 dB

Ramble On
Peak Amplitude: -.05 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.31 dB -19.35 dB

Thank You
Peak Amplitude: -.91 dB -1.46 dB
Average RMS Power: -24.27 dB -23.23 dB

Travelling Riverside Blues
Peak Amplitude: -.89 dB -.89 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.96 dB -16.96 dB

What Is And What Should Never Be
Peak Amplitude: -1.2 dB -.55 dB
Average RMS Power: -21.36 dB -21 dB

White Summer , Black Mountain Side
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -23.8 dB -23.8 dB

Whole Lotta Love
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.33 dB -19.29 dB

Your Time Is Gonna Come
Peak Amplitude: -1.23 dB -1.11 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.57 dB -18.31 dB

Code: [Select]
Black Dog
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -17.4 dB -18.15 dB

Bron-Y-Aur Stomp
Peak Amplitude: -.5 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.22 dB -20.08 dB

Custard Pie
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.06 dB -19.66 dB

D'yer Mak'er
Peak Amplitude: -.04 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.22 dB -19.42 dB

Gallows Pole
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.11 dB -20.81 dB

Going To California
Peak Amplitude: -4.9 dB -3.14 dB
Average RMS Power: -21.22 dB -21.36 dB

Immigrant Song
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.34 dB -16.76 dB

Misty Mountain Hop
Peak Amplitude: -.92 dB -1.5 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.3 dB -16.5 dB

Over The Hills And Far Away
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -21.65 dB -21.02 dB

Rock And Roll
Peak Amplitude: -.78 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.28 dB -16.55 dB

Since I've Been Loving You
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.82 dB -19.19 dB

Stairway To Heaven
Peak Amplitude: -1.11 dB -.14 dB
Average RMS Power: -21.45 dB -21.07 dB

Tangerine
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.45 dB -20.47 dB

The Battle Of Evermore
Peak Amplitude: -4.12 dB -2.4 dB
Average RMS Power: -21.1 dB -19.66 dB

The Rain Song
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB -.15 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.72 dB -19.22 dB
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: digital on 2006-11-21 10:18:04


1) Leave your keyboard now
2) Place said masterpiece in the TT or in the CD
3) Crank shitless...

…ah, now, isn’t that much better…?

Andrew D.
cdnav.com (http://www.cdnav.com)
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: xmixahlx on 2006-11-21 18:02:56
the fact (yes, fact) that zeppelin rocks your world doesn't enter into this comparison of (re)masters...


later
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: cliveb on 2006-11-21 19:33:53
When I get home tonight I'll measure some peak and RMS levels for a variety of Crop Cricle and 10CD box tracks (unless someone else posts the data before then).
I generated data for Discs 1 and 2 of the Crop Circle Box using Audition already.
Thanks to Greynol for his figures.

I think krabapple was specifically interested in seeing the peak and RMS figures of the crop circle and 10CD box side-by-side. Since this thread is principally about Physical Graffiti, I pulled out those tracks for comparison:
Code: [Select]
                      Crop Circles Remasters        10CD Box Set
                      Peak L/R    RMS L/R          Peak L/R    RMS L/R        RMS Diff L/R
Custard Pie          -0.0/-0.0    -18.6/-18.4      -0.0/-0.0    -16.0/-15.7    2.6/2.7
The Rover            -0.0/-0.0    -14.3/-14.7      -0.1/-0.1    -14.4/-14.9    -0.1/-0.2
In My Time Of Dying  -0.0/-0.0    -17.4/-17.6      -0.0/-0.0    -15.9/-16.1    1.5/1.5
Houses Of The Holy    -0.0/-0.0    -17.1/-16.7      -0.0/-0.0    -14.9/-14.4    2.2/2.4
Trampled Under Foot  -0.0/-0.0    -15.5/-15.8      -0.0/-0.0    -14.4/-14.7    1.1/1.1
Kashmir              -0.0/-0.0    -16.2/-16.1      -0.0/-0.0    -15.7/-15.6    0.5/0.5
In The Light          -0.0/-0.0    -19.2/-19.2      -0.0/-0.0    -18.7/-18.7    0.5/0.5
Bron-Y-Aur            -4.0/-3.1    -20.8/-21.9      -4.4/-3.9    -21.2/-22.3    -0.4/-0.4
Down By The Seaside  -0.0/-0.0    -15.7/-15.8      -0.0/-0.0    -16.1/-16.3    -0.4/-0.5
Ten Years Gone        -0.0/-0.0    -18.3/-18.5      -0.0/-0.0    -17.5/-17.7    0.8/0.8
Night Flight          -0.0/-0.0    -15.8/-15.5      -0.0/-0.0    -15.2/-15.1    0.6/0.4
The Wanton Song      -0.0/-0.0    -17.0/-17.0      -0.0/-0.0    -15.5/-15.5    1.5/1.5
Boogie With Stu      -1.0/-0.7    -16.8/-16.8      -0.2/-0.0    -16.1/-16.0    0.7/0.8
Black Country Woman  -0.0/-0.0    -20.4/-19.4      -0.0/-0.0    -20.4/-19.3    0.0/0.1
Sick Again            -0.0/-0.0    -14.8/-15.3      -0.0/-0.0    -14.5/-15.0    0.3/0.3
Note that the RMS values shown here are what Audition would describe as "total RMS", rather than the "average RMS" posted by Greynol. I didn't do it differently like this to be awkward - I just happened to use a program that measures RMS that way.

As you can see, the difference is generally pretty small, but in most cases the Crop Circles set has slightly greater dynamic range than the 10CD set. Only two tracks (Custard Pie and Houses of the Holy) have RMS differences greater than 2dB. I'll remind people at this point that I was unable to distinguish the two sets in an ABX test.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: greynol on 2006-11-21 19:41:18
I still have all the data generated by Audition, so I can provide whatever you guys like.  No point in duplicating work.

Discs 3 and 4 are done (with ave RMS still)...
Code: [Select]
Achilles Last Stand
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -17.38 dB -16.83 dB

Dancing Days
Peak Amplitude: -.17 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -17.15 dB -16.73 dB

For Your Life
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.07 dB -18.5 dB

In My Time of Dying
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.6 dB -18.68 dB

Kashmir
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -17.05 dB -16.95 dB

No Quarter
Peak Amplitude: -1.99 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -23.89 dB -23.42 dB

Ten Years Gone
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB -.03 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.85 dB -20.2 dB

The Song Remains the Same
Peak Amplitude: -1.21 dB -1.5 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.38 dB -18.28 dB

Trampled Under Foot
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.08 dB -16.47 dB

When the Levee Breaks
Peak Amplitude: -.66 dB -.76 dB
Average RMS Power: -16.6 dB -16.38 dB

Code: [Select]
All My Love
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.93 dB -20.33 dB

Candy Store Rock
Peak Amplitude: -.04 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.76 dB -19.19 dB

Fool in the Rain
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.42 dB -18.35 dB

Houses of the Holy
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -17.85 dB -17.53 dB

I'm Gonna Crawl
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.76 dB -19.46 dB

In the Evening
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.36 dB -18.2 dB

In the Light
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.86 dB -21.04 dB

Moby Dick-Bonzo's Montreux
Peak Amplitude: -.04 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -17.94 dB -17.71 dB

Nobody's Fault But Mine
Peak Amplitude: -.04 dB -.54 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.52 dB -19.44 dB

Ozone Baby
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -15.71 dB -15.7 dB

Poor Tom
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -18.26 dB -17.81 dB

The Ocean
Peak Amplitude: -1.33 dB -.72 dB
Average RMS Power: -19.42 dB -19.09 dB

The Wanton Song
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB -.02 dB
Average RMS Power: -17.81 dB -17.72 dB

Wearing and Tearing
Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
Average RMS Power: -15.8 dB -16.08 dB
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: krabapple on 2006-11-21 20:18:10
Since more people tend to report Avg than Total RMS , here are Audition's average RMS/Peak figures for the 10CD box tracks analogous to the tracks Greynol posted (using default Audition 1.0 settings --e.g.,  DC accounted for, FS Square wave, 50 ms window).  Clive, how do you get 'CODE" to print columns so neatly?

(NB these data are reformatted a few psots below this one, with difference data added)


Code: [Select]
    
                 AvgL      AvgR    PeakL PeakR
Babe           -17.85    -18.57    -.02  -.65
Celebration    -15.78    -16.17    0     0
Communication  -14.06    -14.57    0     0
Dazed          -15.88    -15.52    0     0
Friends        -19.06    -18.92    -.58  0
Heartbreaker   -15.57    -15.38    0     0
Hey Hey        -16.35    -16.18    0     0
I Can't Quit   -16.56    -17.48    0     0
Ramble On      -19.15    -18.20    0     0
Thank You      -23.30    -22.33    0     0
Travelling     -17.99    -17.99    -1.87 -1.87
What Is        -20.74    -20.39    -.67  0
White Summer   -23.87    -23.87    0     0
Whole Lotta    -18.75    -18.71    0     0
Your Time      -17.31    -17.50   -1.7   -2.16


Black Dog      -15.99    -16.75    0     0
Bron Stomp     -18.81    -18.84    0     0
Custard        -17.34    -16.89    0     0
D'yer Mak'r    -18.38    -17.91    0     0
Gallows        -17.83    -18.61    0     0
Going          -22.12    -22.27    -5.87 -4.05
Immigrant      -15.61    -16.06    0     0
Misty          -13.99    -14.16    0     0
Over           -21.08    -20.53    0     0
Rock and Roll  -14.38    -14.56    0     0
Since I've     -17.34    -17.71    0     0
Stairway       -20.16    -19.78    -.09  0
Tangerine      -19.62    -19.62    0     0
Evermore       -20.67    -19.08    -3.81 -2.08
Rain Song      -18.64    -18.15    0     0

Achilles Last  -15.78    -15.17    0     0
Dancing Days   -16.03    -15.62    0     0
For Your Life  -16.91    -16.88    0     0
In My Time     -17.12    -17.19    0     0
Kashmir        -16.45    -16.40    0     0
No Quarter     -21.22    -20.91    0     0
Ten Years Gone -18.98    -19.32    0     0
Song Remains   -15.87    -15.12    0     0
Trampled       -15.02    -15.35    0     0
When the Levee -14.92    -14.70    0     0
                

All My Love    -18.26    -18.69    0     0
Candy Store    -16.33    -17.21    0     0
Fool in the    -16.95    -16.88    0     0
Houses of the  -15.53    -15.20    0     0
I'm Gonna      -18.07    -17.79    0     0
In the Evening -16.91    -16.75    0     0
In the Light   -20.33    -20.51    0     0
Bonzo's Montr  -16.93    -17.26    -.22  -.56
Nobody's Fault -16.39    -16.26    0     0
Ozone Baby     -14.48    -14.46    0     0
Poor Tom       -17.83    -17.37    0     0
The Ocean      -17.10    -16.79    0     0
The Wanton     -16.26    -16.39    0     0
Wearing and    -15.14    -15.40    0     0
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: krabapple on 2006-11-21 21:22:03
Btw, when I tote up all the differences so far between Avg RMS levels of 10 CD vs crop circles CD boxes, I get an average difference of +1.3 dB for left channel, +1.2 dB for right (10 CD set being higher).  Only two of the tracks show a +3 dB difference of Avg RMS (Nobody's Fault and Song Remains the Same) and of these the greatest diff is +3.5 dB in one channel.  Minimum increase is 'Friends' , +0.1 dB in both channels

A few tracks (e.g Going to California) have actually been reduced in  level in the 10CD box versus the crop circles.

NB that when peak levels are 0 dB, the RMS avg is a direct indicator of dynamic range. 

I note too from viewing the waveforms that the incidences of clipping vary widely from track to track.  Some show several hundred instances, where clipping is defined as 4 or more consecutive samples at 0 dB -- clive's WaveRepair software is terrific for analysing this* -- while some show none, despite also being 'loud'.  I have never seen a definitive analysis of how many consecutive clipped samples are audible, but I have seen reports that range from 3 to more than 13 being required.  Regardless, for this remastering project I suspect each track was treated on a case by case basis.  It's also seems that tracks from later albums, on the whole, were given more 'jet assist' (hard limiting) than earlier ones, though I haven't nailed this down.


*it's brilliant, actually..in addition to showing clipping at any defined cutoff of # of consecutive samples at 0 dBFS ('clip width'), it can display a histogram showing the distribution of clipping instances at *all* widths from 1 sample to 24+, and also indicates where in the wav file these occur.  Using this I see that one of the worst 'offenders', 'Custard Pie' has 248 instances where clip width = 4 or more, including 10 instances of clipping that are at least 24 samples wide.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: greynol on 2006-11-21 21:34:45
I have never seen a definitive analysis of how many consecutive clipped samples are audible, but I have seen reports that range from 3 to more than 13 being required.

Wouldn't the number of cycles that contained clipped samples also be important?
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: krabapple on 2006-11-21 21:44:12
Yes, that is the other dimension -- many time-proximate instances of 'narrow' clipping (a few samples wide but close together), conceivably could be audible, as could few cycles containing 'wide' clipping.

I would like to emphasize, though, that by today's mastering standars, the 10-CD Zep remasters are really quite conservative in their employment of compression and limiting.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: cliveb on 2006-11-21 22:28:44
Clive, how do you get 'CODE" to print columns so neatly?

I prepare the text neatly in Notepad, being careful to use real spaces rather than tab characters, then put it inside a "codebox" section.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: krabapple on 2006-11-21 22:54:43
Clive, how do you get 'CODE" to print columns so neatly?

I prepare the text neatly in Notepad, being careful to use real spaces rather than tab characters, then put it inside a "codebox" section.



Darn, I'd hoped it would be easier.  Here's the data in a different form, grouped by album, with difference calculations as well (e.g. dAvgl = difference between crop circle left channel RMS Avg and 10 CD set version).  Pr = peak (right channel) etc.


Led Zeppelin tracks from 10CD boxed set
Code: [Select]
              Avgl       Avgr      Pl    Pr     dAvgl    dAvgr    dPl    dPr

Babe I’m      -17.85     -18.57   -0.02 -0.65   1.17    -0.27     1.2    0.05
Communication -14.06     -14.57    0     0      1.66     0.57     0.45   0.74
Dazed and     -15.88     -15.52    0     0      0.5      1.19     0.03   0
Your Time Is  -17.31     -17.5    -1.7  -2.16   1.26     0.81    -0.47  -1.05
I Can't Quit  -16.56     -17.48    0     0      2.04     2.02     0      0.01

Whole Lotta   -18.75     -18.71    0     0      0.58     0.58     0      0
Heartbreaker  -15.57     -15.38    0     0      1.39     1.36     0.01   0.51
Ramble On     -19.15     -18.2     0     0      1.16     1.15     0.05   0
Thank You     -23.3      -22.33    0     0      0.97     0.9      0.91   1.46
What Is And   -20.74     -20.39   -0.67  0      0.62     0.61     0.53   0.55

Immigrant     -15.61     -16.06    0     0      0.73     0.7      0      0
Friends       -19.06     -18.92   -0.58  0      0.1      0.1      0.19   0
Celebration   -15.78     -16.17    0     0      0.52     0.48     0      0
Since I've    -17.34     -17.71    0     0      1.48     1.48     0      0
Gallows Poll  -17.83     -18.61    0     0      2.28     2.2      0      0
Tangerine     -19.62     -19.62    0     0      0.83     0.85     0      0
Bron Y Stomp  -18.81     -18.84    0     0      1.41     1.24     0.5    0

Black Dog     -15.99     -16.75    0     0      1.41     1.4      0      0
Rock and Roll -14.38     -14.56    0     0      1.9      1.99     0.78   0
Battle of     -20.67     -19.08   -3.81 -2.08   0.43     0.58     0.31   0.32
Stairway  to  -20.16     -19.78   -0.09  0      1.29     1.29     1.02   0.14
Going to Cali -22.12     -22.27   -5.87 -4.05  -0.9     -0.91    -0.97  -0.91
Misty Mount   -13.99     -14.16    0     0      2.31     2.34     0.92   1.5
When the Lev  -14.92     -14.7     0     0      1.68     1.68     0.66   0.76

Song Remains  -15.87     -15.12    0     0      3.51     3.16     1.21   1.5
D'yer Mak'r   -18.38     -17.91    0     0      1.84     1.51     0.04   0
No Quarter    -21.22     -20.91    0     0      2.67     2.51     1.99   0
Dancing Days  -16.03     -15.62    0     0      1.12     1.11     0.17   0
Over the Hill -21.08     -20.53    0     0      0.57     0.49     0      0
Rain Song     -18.64     -18.15    0     0      1.08     1.07     0      0.15
The Ocean     -17.1      -16.79    0     0      2.32     2.3      1.33   0.72

Custard Pie   -17.34     -16.89    0     0      2.72     2.77     0      0
Houses of the -15.53     -15.2     0     0      2.32     2.33     0      0
In the Light  -20.33     -20.51    0     0      0.53     0.53     0      0
In My Time of -17.12     -17.19    0     0      1.48     1.49     0      0
Trampled      -15.02     -15.35    0     0      1.06     1.12     0      0
Ten Years     -18.98     -19.32    0     0      0.87     0.88     0      0.03
Kashmir       -16.45     -16.4     0     0      0.6      0.55     0      0
The Wanton    -16.26     -16.39    0     0      1.55     1.33     0      0.02

Achilles Last -15.78     -15.17    0     0      1.6      1.66     0      0
For Your Life -16.91     -16.88    0     0      2.16     1.62     0      0
Nobodys Fault -16.39     -16.26    0     0      3.13     3.18     0.04   0.54
Candy Store   -16.33     -17.21    0     0      2.43     1.98     0.04   0

In the Even   -16.91     -16.75    0     0      1.45     1.45     0      0
All My Love   -18.26     -18.69    0     0      1.67     1.64     0      0
Fool in the   -16.95     -16.88    0     0      1.47     1.47     0      0
I'm Gonna     -18.07     -17.79    0     0      1.69     1.67     0      0

Bonzo's       -16.93     -17.26   -0.22 -0.56   1.01     0.45    -0.18  -0.56
Ozone Baby    -14.48     -14.46    0     0      1.23     1.24     0      0
Poor Tom      -17.83     -17.37    0     0      0.43     0.44     0      0
Wearing and   -15.14     -15.4     0     0       0.66    0.68     0      0
Hey Hey What  -16.35     -16.18    0     0      2.47     2.49     0      0
Travelling    -17.99     -17.99   -1.87 -1.87  -1.03    -1.03    -0.98  -0.98
White Summer  -23.87     -23.87    0     0     -0.07    -0.07     0      0
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: paulmarkj on 2006-11-30 21:47:53
We talked about this album last week (along woth many other 70s classics), after the pub, sitting around drinking. What was the best song? what a great guitar sound! I love the way his voice goes up there, and that is really inspiring harmony, that sounds so emotional, etc, etc.

But not once did we talk about the audiophile quality!

I gave a copy of a rare track to my friend. From a crappy tape recording of a scratched  recorded to PC, MP3, lossless, good knows if it was recrded as JS, dual or whatever, and you know what? he was blown away. He hadnt heard it for 20 years amd couldn't believe how great the band were. Now, I would have liked a better quality recording myself, but I'll not cry over it.

Actually, I do remember something about the recording - it was mono, but the music was alive, the way the drummer played lifted the music and brought in new dimensions.

I have One Day I'll Fly Away on Moulin Rouge (proper CD, modern recording) and a scratched, low-fi version by  Randy Crawford. The former is flat, the latter tugs at the heart strings. Why? because Randy Crawford can really sing, the arrangement is subtle, yet powerful, the backing strings compliment her voice, she biursts into the powerful emotions without having to strain her voice. The timing cannot be defined. It is a truly emotional experience.

The other woman is average, the arrangement has no spirit, it was dashed off.

Now, on this forum, people would say the reverse. The Randy Crawford recording is not great, it is audiophilically flat, but emiotanally, it is upifting.


"So back in the late 80's I bought Led Zeppelin's Physical Graffiti CD and boy was I ever dissapointed."

Physical Graffiti is a great album. Don't be disappointed. Sit back, turn up the volume and sink into the music.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: aLii on 2006-12-14 12:26:45
"So back in the late 80's I bought Led Zeppelin's Physical Graffiti CD and boy was I ever dissapointed."

Physical Graffiti is a great album. Don't be disappointed. Sit back, turn up the volume and sink into the music.

I don't think that this is really the point of this discussion at all. The point is trying to determine the best version that you can get. I love Physical Graffiti. A little bit of clipping will never change that, but if someone came to me and said "Here's a perfect version, do you wanna swap?" I'd say yes please

It's still just about my favourite album though.
Title: Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
Post by: krabapple on 2006-12-18 16:29:49
Physical Graffiti is a great album. Don't be disappointed. Sit back, turn up the volume and sink into the music.



 

The OP already had heard and loved the album as an LP -- but the *CD* didn't please him *because it didn't sound right to him*.  Not because he doesn't love the music. So he's inquiring about different CD versions that are available.  Not whether PG is a good album.